Feed Pets Raw Food

Sunday, June 10, 2007

[rawfeeding] Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?

"Kristin Knippenberg" <kknippenberg@...> wrote:
>> But what about the orig question about raw tilapia from China? :) I'd
> just like to know if it is an option.
*****
Tilapia is almost totally a farmed fish, so right there it is suspect.
Second, if it is farmed in China, based on what we've learned about
livestock management in China I'd say there's a pretty good chance that
the Tilipia was fed fish chow laced with melamine.

The jury is still quite out on exactly how that may or may not affect
our dogs; apparently the FDA is not overly concerned about the presence
of melanine in chicken or pork feed in this country.

My feeling about Tilapia (completely untarnished by my dogs' utter
refusal to eat the stuff) is that it offers no Omega 3, it is farmed
with the usual--and now also unusual--caveats about farmed fish, but it
is a source of protein if you are desperate for protein variety.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: Salmon Heads

woofwoofgrrl <cmc4lists1@...> wrote:
>
> My apologies. Consider this newbie thoroughly flogged for not
reviewing
> the archives.
*****
Ha! Bruised and beaten maybe, but never flogged.
I am sorry if you feel flogged. I was really only aiming for a tongue
lashing.

The archives can be our somewhat dysfunctional friend if we are willing
to meet it more than halfway.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: Info I would like feedback on...please?

"Anndrea" <anndreae@...> wrote:
> http://www.clubcanine.net/evolutionary-nutrition-dogs.shtml
>
> http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne2.htm
>
> Could someone who may know more about DNA please clue me in to if
DNA
> has anything to do with digestive systems? Like having near matched
> DNA between a dog and a wolf mean their digestive systems work
> essentially the same?
*****
Yes.
The similarity of DNA assures us that dogs are a subspecies of wolf;
their digestive systems are the same because the two animals are
essentially the same, certainly as far as DNA goes.


>Also, if these sites are true and as
> informative as I thought they were, they would be good sites to send
> people to who are considering raw feeding and want to know more
about
> the similarities of wild dogs/wolves and domesticated dogs.
*****
The first site goes along quite reasonably but falters badly when it
comes to vegetation in the diet. The inclusion of vegetables in the
dog's diet is based on the erroneous assumption that wolves eat
stomach contents, which in fact they rarely do. And when they do,
the stomachs would be those of small prey, not the large ungulates.

Addtionally, the author's recommendation of books by Kymythy Schultze
and Ian Billinghurst is at odds with the research she presents
earlier. Schultze gets terminally bogged down with supplements;
Billinghurst starts out unclear on the dog's carnivorous nature and
goes downhill from there. There are other websites that can better
support the species appropriate diet a dog deserves.

The author of the material on the second website is very much the
source authority on DNA similarities of wolf and dog. You would not
go wrong citing his work.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: Runny bowel movements

"Evie" <archie.willow@...> wrote:
I have a one and a half year old jrt
> that is prone to loose stools as well. I found out that it gets
worse
> when I try to feed him more (he is on the skinny side).
*****
Evie, if your JRT needs to put on weight, try feeding him more food but
in more meals; three instead of two, two instead of one. It is often
necessary to gently increase the size of meals; adding another meal is
generally less disruptive.

Of course, you should also make sure you are feeding food that inspires
weight gain.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: Question about Organs-Skin

Bearhair <bearhair@...> wrote:

> It's inappropriate to try to "swap" one part of the animal for
another to
> satisfy yourself that you're feeding your pet correctly.


Lora, I'm sure you didn't mean this, but IME this is the kind of post
that freaks people out and reinforces the notion that raw feeding
is "too hard" and "too complicated" to be done by normal folks.

There's swapping parts, and then there's swapping whole categories of
parts. Swapping parts might mean feeding whole loads of pork picnics
(from the front part of the pig) and notsomuch fresh pork hams (from
the back part of the pig). I just don't see how this is any big
deal, as long as you're feeding mostly meat with a bit of edible bone
and some organs. Meat and bone from one part of the critter are
basically like meat & bone from another part.

Swapping whole categories of parts, OTOH, like never feeding liver or
any other organs b/c you don't care for them -- well, that's a whole
other thing. Which is why we always try to say that SOME of the
diet -- though not much -- really does need to be edible bone, and
SOME of the diet needs to be organs. I suspect that this is more the
type of swapping you meant to denigrate.


> However, intentionally skinning an animal for feeding and never
feeding skin
> is unnatural and is depriving your pet of the nutrients available
in that
> portion of the prey animal.


Never ever feeding skin might be on the order of skipping a whole
category of parts, sure. I probably missed it because I've been
short of time, but I wasn't aware of anyone saying that they never
fed skin. Although I gotta say, I'm not aware of any specific
nutritional qualities of skin (versus meat and bone), anyway.


> Are you feeding your pet better than when you fed kibble?
Debatably, yes.


And I just don't see how this is even debatable. I think the worst
raw diet is still bound to stand head-and-shoulders above the "best"
kibble.


> If you don't wish to, at least recognize and acknowledge that you
are
> choosing to not feed your pet as well as you could.


There's what we all wish we could do -- and what some DO, thanks to
their ingenuity and hard work -- and then there's what the majority
of us CAN do. I hate to see people scared off -- and there are
newbies here every day, in droves -- because of the notion that if
they can't feed exactly a whole wild animal, they're better off not
even trying, and they should just go back to trusting the pet
food "experts."

All you really have to feed is meat, meaty bones, meat, organs, and
meat, in as much variety of critters and parts as reasonably
possible. Which, for most of us, entails at least some switching
around. The trick is just to figure out what switching is no big
deal and what switching is a deal-breaker.

JMHO.

-- sandy & griffin

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[rawfeeding] Re: portland OR

> Anndrea,
> I belong to PacNWRaw@... The majority live Near Portland or
> along I-5 south of Portland. Some of them order a variety of meats from
> Willamett Valley Meats located in Portland and have it picked up or
> ready at the same time they are ordering Rabbit or what ever in bulk
> with the group. The group keeps a product and price list fairly up to
> date in their data base. I have never bought from WV. Hope this helps.


That's actually kind of funny, as I was planning on getting nearly all
my stuff from Willamette Valley Meats :-)

I am on PacMWRaw myself :-) I think that is where I got the price
list. I was planning on finding someone here to take me to Portland
once a month to get supplies, and giving them $50 for gas. If I could
find someone to pick up what I order and bring it to me, I would give
them the $50. That is still way cheaper than what it would cost to
have over 200lbs of meat and stuff shipped :-)

Thanks for the reply! I may try to hook up with someone who orders
rabbit and is on Portland, or try to find another place that does the
more "exotic" stuff...like Emu and rabbit.

anndrea

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[rawfeeding] Re: Dog was vomiting blood

//I have been to the vet so many times
> with this dog and they always dose him up with antibiotics, even
> against my wishes.//

***Oooh, I hate the 'let's pump antibiotics into 'em' mentality! My
former vet had that syndrome too. Especially with a digestive issue;
killing off all the good bacteria is not a good choice.

//This dog suffers from HGE, which is Hemorrhagic GastroEnteritis. //

***Honestly, I don't feel qualified to help you with this boy in
terms of diet. Hopefully someone on the list can give you better
advice on how to proceed.

//they also give him antibiotics which I think is making him sicker.
I
> think it's time to find a new vet. And maybe I need to find a
> specialty list for raw feeding him. Can someone point me to one?//

***Boy, I agree! It very hard to find a pro-raw vet, much less one
who actually knows enough about diet and nutrition to advise you. I
would recommend a classical homeopath first.

//I think I knew this, but after a worrying, sleepless
> night, I really questioned my decision to go raw. I still think
this
> is the right path, but it's still a bit wobbly for us//

***You made the right choice. Stick with it and take your time. We'll
help figure something out to help that poor little fella.

-Renee W.


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[rawfeeding] Re:Turkey and banner ads...

Lol!! Yes, I am on several raw feeding, no vax lists etc. and that pretty much got me nothing but dog food ads. It makes me laugh so hard!
Amanda


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Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

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[rawfeeding] Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?

Thank you for the link. I'll check it out. Whatever meat I DO wind up
feeding him, I think JUST MEAT is the way to go for the elimination.
Thanks again everyone! - Kristin K

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kristin Knippenberg"
<kknippenberg@...> wrote:
>
> Hi there, this is my first post. I've had my corgi (7 almost 8 yrs
> old) on raw since November 2006. He loves it, and his energy and joie
> de vivre are GREAT. BIG PROBLEMS with skin allergies for 4+ years
> though, so much so that I went to a holistic vet this spring. She
> suggested that it's probably somewhat environmental, but probably also
> a bit of a food allergy, and that for dogs, meats are a common
> allergen. ANYWAY, she suggested a real, honest-to-god elimination diet
> of just fish and vegetables, since fish is the only "meat" that he
> hasn't really tried (he's had raw chicken, beef, lamb, venison, all in
> the Natures Variety patties, which has ALL SORTS of raw stuff,
> including yogurt and eggs, etc.).
>
> SO. He's currently on Halshan raw fish and veggies (I struggle to do
> food prep, barely even for myself), but I am concerned he isn't
> getting bone or organs with the Halshan fish. SO: I did see Chinese,
> farm-raised Tilapia for a great price at my grocery store this
> weekend, whole fish, with eyes and all. Maybe this is the answer! But
> considering all the scary stuff coming out of China lately, I'm
> hesitant, wondering if this product is safe. Any ideas or advice
> appreciated!
>
> Thanks, Kristin K, Salt Lake City
>


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[rawfeeding] Re: Question about Organs-Skin - Lora!

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Bearhair <bearhair@...> wrote:
>
> Sure you can! Just make sure he's wearing a diaper!
>
> Lora
> Evanston, IL


Where are you! You must be hiding in my house somewhere, hahaha!
How Did You Know? Actually he does have a gauze pad on to cover his
ouchy till it heals. Kinda looks like a diaper!
Vet said keep it covered part of the day.
I'ts going nicely.......

Carol & Charkee

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[rawfeeding] Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?

Okay, single food source, sure, I'll try it.

But what about the orig question about raw tilapia from China? :) I'd
just like to know if it is an option. Thanks. :)

Kristin K

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cmhausrath" <cmhausrath@...> wrote:
>
> "Kristin Knippenberg" <kknippenberg@> wrote:
>
> > I went to a holistic vet this spring. She
> > suggested that it's probably somewhat environmental, but probably
> also
> > a bit of a food allergy, and that for dogs, meats are a common
> > allergen. ANYWAY, she suggested a real, honest-to-god elimination
> diet
> > of just fish and vegetables,
>
>
> Your vet may be well-meaning, but well-educated about diet, it seems
> she's not. The food you've switched to, this Halshan fish whatever,
> contains:
>
> Pollock Fish
> Carrots
> Broccoli
> Zucchini Squash
> Peas
>
> So if your dog is, say, sensitive to sugars (carrots), or to legumes
> (peas), you're still feeding those. A REAL elimination diet would
> contain ONE and only one food source.
>
> And the idea that meat allergies are "common" in dogs -- that a
> species would frequently be allergic to the food it has evolved to
> eat -- is just preposterous. Dogs may often have trouble with COOKED
> meats, but that's a whole other thing. If you're feeding raw, you
> don't need to worry about cooked meats anyway.
>
> If it seems that I'm being overly hard on your vet, I apologize, but
> it definitely seems that she's led you astray. Since it seems that
> you've been feeding pre-made foods with unnecessary vegetables all
> along, that would be the FIRST thing I would eliminate. Why continue
> to feed something that may aggravate your dog, and that he clearly
> doesn't need, while eliminating perfectly good foods in a wild goose
> chase?
>
>
> > SO. He's currently on Halshan raw fish and veggies (I struggle to do
> > food prep, barely even for myself), but I am concerned he isn't
> > getting bone or organs with the Halshan fish.
>
>
> I too would not be comfortable feeding this food. If you're willing
> to contradict the advice of this "holistic" vet, I would recommend
> that you choose another single protein source and feed ONLY that for
> at least a month. It seems that you've not fed turkey, and that's
> readily available without great expense. I know you think you can't
> afford the food prep time, but there IS basically no food prep time.
> Just buy whole turkeys or turkey breasts, whack them up, and feed.
> No veggies, no mixing, no blending, no complicated anything.
>
> Please read thru the pages on
> http://rawfed.com/ (especially the "myths") and
> http://www.rawlearning.com/ and check out
> http://www.rawfeddogs.net/Recipes
>
> And please ask whatever questions you have -- we're here to help!
>
> -- sandy (cranky with "holistic" vets after a similar experience) &
> griffin (basically never cranky, but he can't type)
>


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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Whole Tripe - what am I in for

Suz,

The trick is to have a bunch of vino *before* (and maybe during) attacking
the tripe! :))) I agree, gloves are a must.

Did you like the pictures????? :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Susanne MacLeod" <suzmacleod@rogers.com>


EEEEwwwwww.. Thanks guys....I'll be sure to not have too many glasses
of vino the night before!!!!!!!!LOL
I will also definetly pick up some rubber gloves for this one!

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[rawfeeding] Re: Dog was vomiting blood

At 6:02 PM +0000 6/10/07, brutus_buckley wrote:
>Hi Patty,
>If it was my dog vomiting blood, I would definitely make a trip to the
>vet. You said your dog is sick; I assuming this is a condition prior to
>raw? Something as harmless as boneless raw chicken meat is not known
>for making dogs vomit blood. More information on this dog would be good
>to help you determine the best way to feed him raw.

****Thank you for the reply. I have been to the vet so many times
with this dog and they always dose him up with antibiotics, even
against my wishes. This last episode when he vomited blood was new,
and I was ready to rush him in, even though I think sometimes they do
him more harm in the long run. In this case, most likely, he
would've been taken to the emergency room in a somewhat unknown
hospital and put in a cage with an IV drip and probably some xrays
and then hodge podge monitoring, then antibiotics and then after a
few days I'd bring him home.

I would never advise anyone to make this kind of decision on their
own, but know that I've been through a lot with him and discussed
much of this with my local vet in the past, and I determined last
night that he would be okay spending part of the night in my arms and
being monitored for further distress. But only after the bloody
vomit did not continue. If it had, I would have rushed him in for
treatment to stop the bleeding. Somehow, it seemed to stop on it's
own.

This dog suffers from HGE, which is Hemorrhagic GastroEnteritis. It
causes sudden uncontrollable vomiting and bloody diarrhea for often
unknown reasons. I have never hesitated to take him in when this
happens, as it can cause him to go into sudden shock and we could
lose him. He is put on IV fluids and monitored for 2 or 3 days. But
they also give him antibiotics which I think is making him sicker. I
think it's time to find a new vet. And maybe I need to find a
specialty list for raw feeding him. Can someone point me to one?****

>As for the one who choked, vomited and re-ate it, this is typical dog
>behavior. Try feeding a bigger piece so your dog has to work a little
>harder to tear chunks off. Basically, your dog was too ambitious and
>the piece wouldn't make it down the chute, so it had to come up. I give
>my dog a huge meal, but I don't let him eat the whole thing at one
>sitting. He works on it for awhile and then he gets the rest the next
>day.

****Thank you. I think I knew this, but after a worrying, sleepless
night, I really questioned my decision to go raw. I still think this
is the right path, but it's still a bit wobbly for us.****

>As for poops, you're right. Raw=less poop. If your dogs had bowel
>obstructions, there would be signs of discomfort, pain and atypical
>behavior.

****As I suspected. And I saw the bigger boy poop some tonight. The
2 healthy ones are still on raw diet, though I only fed them cut up
pieces of chicken tonight. Sickly one is on his canned prescription
diet, though he licked the bowls from the others after they were
done. So I think I'll do some research tomorrow and try to start
adding in some raw pieces of meat and see how he does. He really
does like the raw, as they all do.

Thank you Renee, I appreciate your reply.

Patty and the brat pack
Never trust a dog to watch your food. --Patrick age 10 Advice from Kids

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[rawfeeding] Re: Dog was vomiting blood

At 5:55 PM +0000 6/10/07, geraldinebutterfield wrote:
>I understand this can be scary. My little maltipoo got very sick with
>the last raw chicken drumette I gave her and I havne't had the courage
>to try another, yet. Someone mentioned that they grind the chicken
>bones so I did that but haven't given it to her yet. I'm working on
>just feeding her beef and now her stool is just plain runny. Not sure
>what's going on. But she loves this diet and I think it will be good
>for her if I can get it right.
>
>geraldine

How did your little one get sick? What happened?

I am new and not ready to offer advice, but: I started my yorkie
dogs out on beef back ribs and it made at least one have pudding like
poop, all over the bathroom floor. When I switched to chicken the
runny poop stopped.

I am curious how you grind the chicken bones? What sort of
consistency is it? I think my healthy yorkies can do okay with
chewing their bones, but I'm wondering if this is the way to go for
my sickly boy.
Hang in there, I really think this is the healthiest way to feed them.

Patty and the brat pack
Never trust a dog to watch your food. --Patrick age 10 Advice from Kids


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[rawfeeding] Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?

"Kristin Knippenberg" <kknippenberg@...> wrote:

> I went to a holistic vet this spring. She
> suggested that it's probably somewhat environmental, but probably
also
> a bit of a food allergy, and that for dogs, meats are a common
> allergen. ANYWAY, she suggested a real, honest-to-god elimination
diet
> of just fish and vegetables,


Your vet may be well-meaning, but well-educated about diet, it seems
she's not. The food you've switched to, this Halshan fish whatever,
contains:

Pollock Fish
Carrots
Broccoli
Zucchini Squash
Peas

So if your dog is, say, sensitive to sugars (carrots), or to legumes
(peas), you're still feeding those. A REAL elimination diet would
contain ONE and only one food source.

And the idea that meat allergies are "common" in dogs -- that a
species would frequently be allergic to the food it has evolved to
eat -- is just preposterous. Dogs may often have trouble with COOKED
meats, but that's a whole other thing. If you're feeding raw, you
don't need to worry about cooked meats anyway.

If it seems that I'm being overly hard on your vet, I apologize, but
it definitely seems that she's led you astray. Since it seems that
you've been feeding pre-made foods with unnecessary vegetables all
along, that would be the FIRST thing I would eliminate. Why continue
to feed something that may aggravate your dog, and that he clearly
doesn't need, while eliminating perfectly good foods in a wild goose
chase?


> SO. He's currently on Halshan raw fish and veggies (I struggle to do
> food prep, barely even for myself), but I am concerned he isn't
> getting bone or organs with the Halshan fish.


I too would not be comfortable feeding this food. If you're willing
to contradict the advice of this "holistic" vet, I would recommend
that you choose another single protein source and feed ONLY that for
at least a month. It seems that you've not fed turkey, and that's
readily available without great expense. I know you think you can't
afford the food prep time, but there IS basically no food prep time.
Just buy whole turkeys or turkey breasts, whack them up, and feed.
No veggies, no mixing, no blending, no complicated anything.

Please read thru the pages on

http://rawfed.com/ (especially the "myths") and
http://www.rawlearning.com/ and check out

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

And please ask whatever questions you have -- we're here to help!

-- sandy (cranky with "holistic" vets after a similar experience) &
griffin (basically never cranky, but he can't type)

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[rawfeeding] Re: Info I would like feedback on...please?

"Anndrea" <anndreae@...> wrote:

> related. One (the first one below) is a site that is very
informative
> but does promote raw feeding....
> http://www.clubcanine.net/evolutionary-nutrition-dogs.shtml


Some of the information on this site seems reliable, but I wouldn't
refer people to this page, myself. (For one, on a non-substantive
note, my vision is bad enough that I found this page, with its small
font, bright background, and aggravating underlining and bold-face,
dang near impossible to read. But that's just me.) The info about
dogs' relationship to wolves was fine, but then she'd juxtapose a
reasonable statement ("Always keep in mind that you should keep the
diet accurately proportioned, using a prey animal as your model of
proportions to feed.") with a nonsensical one ("15-25% of the diet
should be composed of pureed green matter such as parsley, kale,
dandelion, chard and a small portion (25% of the total vegetables) of
pureed root vegetation and fruit including parsnips, yams, squash,
apples, pears, and berries."). For another, her advice for how to
switch to raw was just ridiculous, and her book references (poor
confused Kymythy Shultz and the commercially motivated Ian
Billinghurst) left much to be desired.


> http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne2.htm


Dr. Wayne's information, OTOH, is fantastic and has been referenced
here many times before.


> Could someone who may know more about DNA please clue me in to if
DNA
> has anything to do with digestive systems? Like having near matched
> DNA between a dog and a wolf mean their digestive systems work
> essentially the same?


Yes, and yes. DNA encodes everything in our makeup. The fact that
the DNA of our domestic dogs is nearly identical to that of the gray
wolf means that, under their different coat colors & within their
different sizes, all our dogs are essentially gray wolves.

If you haven't already, please read (and perhaps send to your friend)
http://rawfed.com/myths/changed.html

Also, in case anyone got confused by the first website's assertions
about the need for veggies to mimic the stomach contents of a prey
animal, please read
http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

-- sandy & griffin the gray wolf

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[rawfeeding] Diarrhea/watery stool and eggs?

Hey, there£¡Here is a quick question about raw eggs from a newbie.

We have been feeding raw to our Golden and Pomeranian since last
January, and started to introduce raw eggs to their diet two months
ago. They were doing great with raw eggs until last month. Both of
them had diarrhea or watery stool the day or next when fed raw eggs.
The first time when this occurred, we ruled out the possibility that
the culprit was eggs, coz they had been doing quite well with eggs.
The second and third times, however, seemed identify the egg being the
culprit: whatever meat - say pork, beef, chicken, you name it - we
gave them to eat plus eggs (not together with eggs, coz an egg or two
always serve as snack in the morning once or twice a week) their
tummies suffered.

But how come all of a sudden eggs becoming an issue to both dogs? It
just sounds irrational and illogic? Any idea of what is going on here?

Thanks in advance!

Cher
A dedicated mom of two fur kids (golden retriever and pomeranian) from
Mainland China


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[rawfeeding] Turkey and banner ads...

I'm thoroughly amused!! After my "search the archives flogging" I was
looking to see if someone had posted a good way to cut up turkey. My
first endeavor did not go so well tonite...I'm hoping my dogs don't get
to attached to it, becuase I don't particularly care for the smell and
it was really hard to cut into smaller chunks. At least it was cheap!
Anyway, I'm searching through the archives and I had to laugh at the
banner ads that kept showing up - one for Proplan and another for Purina
dog foods! That's advertising money wasted! I didn't even feed that
crap before I discovered raw!

Back to Turkeys: I did find the description of the process to cut up a
turkey in message #111995. However, my Joyce Chen kitchen shears,
which were great for the chickens - sliced through them like butter,
didn't work so great on the turkeys! What do other people use? I did
see in one of the archives that someone uses a hatchet..... ????


Thanks!
Christine


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[rawfeeding] Re: Questions about feeding a Bobcat kitten

how... did your friend get a bobcat kitten...? is it normal to have
pet bobcat breeders in your area...? because it's definitely not in mine.

tammy & grover

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[rawfeeding] Re: portland OR

hey jill,
I am new at this, what is PacNRaw@... ? is that a yahoo group?

-scherzo in portland


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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: Salmon Heads

My apologies. Consider this newbie thoroughly flogged for not reviewing
the archives.
Christine

> *****
> <big sigh>
> Wild caught salmon from the Pacific Northwest of the United States,
> which covers an area from southern Alaska south to the mid-California
> coastline and from the Cascades west to the ocean, may harbor a
> parasite that can be fatal to dogs if the disease is untreated. If
> you have access to wild salmonids from this area you may not want to
> feed the fish raw.


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[rawfeeding] Re: Whole Tripe - what am I in for

EEEEwwwwww.. Thanks guys....I'll be sure to not have too many glasses
of vino the night before!!!!!!!!LOL
I will also definetly pick up some rubber gloves for this one!
Suz

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[rawfeeding] Re: Questions about feeding a Bobcat kitten

Felicia wrote:

>I have a
>friend who just received his first bobcat kitten and it is just about
>to come off of mother's milk and he's asking how much and what to
>feed. I would assume it can eat all of the same things my house cat
>does and I would think it would be ready for bones but do you know how
>much to feed a growing bobcat kitten? I'm going to suggest that he
>talk to his breeder but I thought any help we could give him would be
>great!

I'll try to set aside my horror that a non-domesticated animal is being
subject to commercial breeding and raising.

If the kitten "is just about to come off of mother's milk," why in the world
does he already have it?

In answer to your question, he needs to speak with the breeder or join the
rawcat list to learn how to properly feed and care for this animal, and not
rely on you to be the go-between.


Lora
Evanston, IL


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[rawfeeding] Re: Question about Organs-Skin - Chris O

Carol wrote:

>He LOVES pasture raised beef liver...... Sadly I can't give him, at
>one setting, as much as he wants to eat,lol..........

Sure you can! Just make sure he's wearing a diaper!

Lora
Evanston, IL


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[rawfeeding] Re: How risky is raw, farm-raised Tilapia from China?

Kristin K from Salt Lake City wrote:

>I've had my corgi (7 almost 8 yrs
>old) on raw since November 2006. He loves it, and his energy and joie
>de vivre are GREAT. BIG PROBLEMS with skin allergies for 4+ years
>though, so much so that I went to a holistic vet this spring. She
>suggested that it's probably somewhat environmental, but probably also
>a bit of a food allergy, and that for dogs, meats are a common
>allergen.

From what I've read here and in the archives, most dogs who were tagged as
having food allergies when fed commercial food do NOT have the same reaction
to pure, raw meat of the same kind.

>ANYWAY, she suggested a real, honest-to-god elimination diet
>of just fish and vegetables, since fish is the only "meat" that he
>hasn't really tried (he's had raw chicken, beef, lamb, venison, all in
>the Natures Variety patties, which has ALL SORTS of raw stuff,
>including yogurt and eggs, etc.).

Bingo. Nature's variety patties are a mix, and therefore you have NO idea to
what he may be reacting. it also includes fruit and vegetables, which are
basically undigestible for a dog.

>SO. He's currently on Halshan raw fish and veggies

No, no, no, no, no.

"Fish & Vegetable Mix
Pollock fish, carrots, broccoli, zucchini, and peas."
>http://www.halshan.com/products.html

Before I answer your question about tilapia, I STRONGLY suggest you adopt a
prey-model diet for your dog. Feed nothing but animal protein. Meat. More
meat. Even more meat. A little bone. Then more meat. A little internal
organs. Then more meat.

Start with one animal protein. Many choose chicken because it's easy to get
and relatively inexpensive. Buy a whole chicken. Cut it up. Feed him a leg.
Then feed him half of the breast. Then feed him a thigh. Continue until the
chicken is gone. Then repeat.

Continue this for 8 - 12 weeks and then review.

>(I struggle to do
>food prep, barely even for myself), but I am concerned he isn't
>getting bone or organs with the Halshan fish. SO: I did see Chinese,
>farm-raised Tilapia for a great price at my grocery store this
>weekend, whole fish, with eyes and all. Maybe this is the answer! But
>considering all the scary stuff coming out of China lately, I'm
>hesitant, wondering if this product is safe. Any ideas or advice
>appreciated!

Any farm-raised fish is suspect. Because of the conditions that the fish are
raised, they are inundated with antibiotics to offset the diseases they
acquire due to the crowding and stress. Relative to other fish, though, it's
fairly safe in terms of contaminants and ecological impact. Additional
information on tilapia (and many other fish available for human consumption)
can be found at
>http://www.oceansalive.org/eat.cfm?subnav=fishpage&group=Tilapia


Lora
Evanston, IL


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[rawfeeding] Re: Info I would like feedback on...please?

anndrea wrote:

>Could someone who may know more about DNA please clue me in to if DNA
>has anything to do with digestive systems? Like having near matched
>DNA between a dog and a wolf mean their digestive systems work
>essentially the same?
>I don't need to know if the systems are the same, just if DNA
>influences that.

DNA contains the genetic code for the organism - it controls EVERYTHING,
beginning at the cellular level.

>I am having a discussion about all this with someone and I would like
>to know more about it all. Also, if these sites are true and as
>informative as I thought they were, they would be good sites to send
>people to who are considering raw feeding and want to know more about
>the similarities of wild dogs/wolves and domesticated dogs.

It is unfortunate that the first perpetuates the misconception regarding the
ingestion of stomach contents, but it does make a good argument otherwise.

>http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/units/basics/

Lora
Evanston, IL


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Re: [rawfeeding] My Dog is having Allergies on Raw, Can anyone hep! PLease!

Katie,

Others are going to tell you this and it's good advice - "Simplify".

While I'm sure that Ms. MacDonald had the best of intentions, her diet
advice leaves much to be desired. I see quite a few items on your list that
could be the cause of your girl's problem, but rather than trying to suss
out which of them it is, let's simplify and ditch them all, ok?

Go back to chicken. Just chicken - bone in, unenhanced chickens whacked
into meals, nothing more. Let's see what that does for your girl.

Casey


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Re: [rawfeeding] Runny bowel movements

Welcome, Felix!

Can you give us more specifics on what exactly you're feeding him and how
much?

Casey


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[rawfeeding] Re: My Dog is having Allergies on Raw, Can anyone hep! PLease!

Hi:

First, I don't know the book, but if it suggests veggies and
supplements like the ones you mentioned, it isn't the way this list
recommends and those alone could be the root of your problem along
with much too much too soon.

You can drop all the supplements and veggies and just use salmon oil
caps or liquid. Then you can feed just one protein source to see how
they do on it and if the allergy stops. Get a whole chicken and hack
it up into meal sized chunks, or get a bag or two of chicken quarters
and hand one out to each dog. If chicken doesn't work, try another
protein, like beef, lamb, goat, pork, etc. Ground anything is much
more of a risk especially if you don't know what's in it exactly.
Itching could also be an allergic reaction to Frontline.

Philippa Jordan
New York City

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kathryn Queen" <queenie0010@...>
wrote:
>
> I started feeding my 2 bedlingtons raw about 2 months
> ago and things for the most part have gone great. I have been
using
> Carina Beth MasDonalds book Raw Dog Food as a guide and my female
is starting to itch
> and pull out all her hair in her hind courters. 1st I thought it
was fleas, but I gave her
> frontline twice in this past month, so I think it could be her
food. I give her chicken w/
> bone, ground meat for dogs that I get from whole foods(which could
be anything) from
> the butcher, some organ meats, turkey tails/ necks and beef ribs.
Her veggies consist of
> beet greens, carrot greens, boiled butternut squash and some
supplements cod liver oil or
> flax and Vit. C powder. Few raw eggs too. I 1st started by giving
them just chicken and
> started to intro the rest. I rotate the foods I give them
everyday.
> Do you have any idea on how to get her to stop itching? Katie
>


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[rawfeeding] Re: My Dog is having Allergies on Raw, Can anyone hep! PLease!

Her veggies consist of
> beet greens, carrot greens, boiled butternut squash and some
supplements cod liver oil or
> flax and Vit. C powder. Few raw eggs too. I 1st started by giving
them just chicken and
> started to intro the rest. I rotate the foods I give them everyday.
> Do you have any idea on how to get her to stop itching? Katie
>
Katie,
Get rid of all those veggies! And the flax and vitamin C! totally
useless for dogs. Dogs produce their own fat-soluble vitamin C in
their livers using trace minerals. Also, some dogs are known to be
allergic to flax, my dog is. It's not nearly saturated enough for a
carnivore. It has the molecular structure of paint thinner! Please
check out the myth that dogs are omnivores on this site here:
rawfed.com/myths/.
-Liz

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[rawfeeding] Re: Runny bowel movements

Hi Felix,

How much are you feeding him? I have a one and a half year old jrt
that is prone to loose stools as well. I found out that it gets worse
when I try to feed him more (he is on the skinny side). That said, I
have no experiance of feeding pups raw. But will read replies to this
thread with interest.

Good Luck,
Evie
:)


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mypapito_ri" <mypapito_ri@...>
wrote:
>
> Good afternoon all, I am a newbie to feeding raw. i have have been
> feeding my 9 wks. old lab Jackson for about 1 week(only chicken for
> now). I stumbled unto raw feeding because "Jackson" was having runny
> bowel movements while on kibble.
> This issue has been going on for 2 weeks now. Runny bowel movement
> aside, Jackson appears and, behaves like a healthy puppy.
> I am hoping someone who has been through this before can provide some
> guidance. I am convinced that raw feeding is the best diet for dogs,
> and will continue Jackson on this diet, just need to get over this
hump.
> Thanks for taking the time to help,
> Felix
>


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[rawfeeding] Re: portland OR

> Hi Scherzo - I belong to this coop:
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/WAzzuOR_BARF/
>
> It's a great group & there are many members from the Portland area.

Yeah, I belong to them too. They are a great group.

My only issue is I only want to go up to Portland once a month and the
WAzzuOR_BARF is mostly coordinating deliveries and no one comes my
way. So going to Portland to meet someone who has my stuff once a
month could be hard, as (from what I have seen) they only order one
thing at a time...like emu OR lamb OR pork OR rabbits. I want to get
all at the same time.

If I am wrong, I apologize. I am very new to this, and still don't
have a clue about a lot of it and don't always understand the
WAzzuOR_BARF posts.

I was hoping Scherzo was talking about a co-op in Portland that we
could pick up a variety of things at once.

Again, if I am wrong, I apologize and would be appreciative of someone
"setting me straight" :-)

anndrea

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[rawfeeding] Re: portland OR

> a friend and I are looking to start a co-op for raw fed dogs, but we
> need help! does anyone live in portland?

I'm in Astoria, but will be buying nearly all my meat, etc. in Portland.

Would be great to get a co-op going!

anndrea

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[rawfeeding] Questions about feeding a Bobcat kitten

Hi everyone, while I feed my three dogs and one cat a raw diet I have a
friend who just received his first bobcat kitten and it is just about
to come off of mother's milk and he's asking how much and what to
feed. I would assume it can eat all of the same things my house cat
does and I would think it would be ready for bones but do you know how
much to feed a growing bobcat kitten? I'm going to suggest that he
talk to his breeder but I thought any help we could give him would be
great!

Thanks
Felicia

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[rawfeeding] Re: My Dog is having Allergies on Raw, Can anyone hep! PLease!

Hi Katie,

I'm only new to raw feding, so can't advise on that level...
But has anything else in the dogs enviroment changed?
New washing powder, air freshner, bedding etc? Anything outside the
home that she may be reacting to, such as pollens? Just a thought.

Evie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kathryn Queen" <queenie0010@...>
wrote:
>
> I started feeding my 2 bedlingtons raw about 2 months
> ago and things for the most part have gone great. I have been
using
> Carina Beth MasDonalds book Raw Dog Food as a guide and my female
is starting to itch
> and pull out all her hair in her hind courters. 1st I thought it
was fleas, but I gave her
> frontline twice in this past month, so I think it could be her
food. Katie
>


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Re: [rawfeeding] Maya -- Remember the live bird she ate?

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:07:23 -0000, melaniearles wrote:

>Do you guys think it's possible she could have gotten a parasite from
>the bird?


Possibly. I know they can carry coccidia.

Cathy


Busydog Ventures ~ www.busydogventures.com
Focused on healthy minds and bodies!

Looking for Conformation and Puppy Manners classes this summer?
Reproduction Seminar with Dr. Robert Van Hutchison in October 2007!

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Re: [rawfeeding] Runny bowel movements

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:06:47 -0000, mypapito_ri wrote:

> This issue has been going on for 2 weeks now. Runny bowel movement
>aside, Jackson appears and, behaves like a healthy puppy.
> I am hoping someone who has been through this before can provide some
>guidance. I am convinced that raw feeding is the best diet for dogs,
>and will continue Jackson on this diet, just need to get over this hump.

One question I need to ask is how often you are taking Jackson outside. I know that often puppies are asked to hold it just a bit too long and this will cause
runnier stool due to stress.

Tell us his exercise schedule and then we can help to determine whether it's that problem or the food. Normally when I change puppies over to raw I don't
have any issue. I'd like to help figure out why Jackson is having this difficulty.

Cathy

Duckndogs Labrador Retrievers
Guaranteed to Retrieve Your Heart!
www.duckndogs.net


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[rawfeeding] Danny's loose stool

Hi,

I've given the background on his problem before, but I plan on taking
him and a stool sample to the vet this week and I'd like some advice on
what tests to ask for/allow.

On Memorial Day, my husband fed Danny an entire ground sirloin
hamburger. Ever since, he's had loose stool. Half of the stool is
normal, the last half is loose, mucous and bloody.

I've tried everything - went back to feeding twice/day, only chicken,
no skin, no fat, fasting, more bone, less bone, no bone, etc.

What tests should I ask the vet to do? Thanks.

Candace and the 4 Collies

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[rawfeeding] My Dog is having Allergies on Raw, Can anyone hep! PLease!

I started feeding my 2 bedlingtons raw about 2 months
ago and things for the most part have gone great. I have been using
Carina Beth MasDonalds book Raw Dog Food as a guide and my female is starting to itch
and pull out all her hair in her hind courters. 1st I thought it was fleas, but I gave her
frontline twice in this past month, so I think it could be her food. I give her chicken w/
bone, ground meat for dogs that I get from whole foods(which could be anything) from
the butcher, some organ meats, turkey tails/ necks and beef ribs. Her veggies consist of
beet greens, carrot greens, boiled butternut squash and some supplements cod liver oil or
flax and Vit. C powder. Few raw eggs too. I 1st started by giving them just chicken and
started to intro the rest. I rotate the foods I give them everyday.
Do you have any idea on how to get her to stop itching? Katie

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[rawfeeding] Re: Question about Organs-Skin

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:
>
> Reading the questions about animal skin and the
> debate and agreement that it is indeed an organ.
>
> Makes sense, as leaving the skin on chicken can cause
> runny stools as do to much of the other organs
>
> Now my question:
>
> The skin goes over the limit for the 5% of other organs in the prey
> diet.
>
> Should you add it into that 5% or consider it seperate?
>
> Carol & Charkee the Russian
>
Carol,
The skin is fat, and that is why it causes loose stools. It doesn't
contain the same nutritional values of organs. It is indeed separate,
leave that skin on! If you notice loose stools, gradually reduce the
amount until you find a happy medium. My dog's diet is awfully fatty
but she has normal stools. I actually tear off some fat from poultry
since I feed extremely fatty lamb and pork ribs and brisket.
-Liz

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