Feed Pets Raw Food

Thursday, December 27, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12426

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. dry nose - update & thanks for the help!
From: Karen Ditton

2a. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
From: aimnhi49
2b. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
From: ginny wilken
2c. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
From: Alexis
2d. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
From: Alexis
2e. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
From: costrowski75

3a. Bones causing perforated intestines
From: Denise Farley
3b. Bones causing perforated intestines
From: Monica Hughes
3c. Re: Bones causing perforated intestines
From: Amy Tracy
3d. Bones causing perforated intestines
From: costrowski75
3e. Bones causing perforated intestines
From: katkellm

4a. New to this - what do you think?
From: Monica Hughes

5a. Re: GI Normous Dogs
From: Ania Tysarczyk
5b. Re: GI Normous Dogs
From: Sandee Lee

6a. New here & ready to start
From: Monica Hughes

7a. Do you guys worry
From: cutensexyb89
7b. Re: Do you guys worry
From: Sandee Lee
7c. Re: Do you guys worry
From: Karen Swanay
7d. Re: Do you guys worry
From: Heather

8a. Re: Looking to switch, but worried about Chicken protein sensitivity
From: carnesbill
8b. Re: Looking to switch, but worried about Chicken protein sensitivity
From: Sandee Lee

9a. Re: ichy skin!
From: Yasuko herron

10a. How much poop should I expect?
From: Monica Hughes
10b. Re: How much poop should I expect?
From: Laurie Swanson

11. Grant is Sick: Diagnosis Pancreatitis
From: redraider_alh


Messages
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1a. dry nose - update & thanks for the help!
Posted by: "Karen Ditton" karenditton@urassociation.com karenditton
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:29 pm ((PST))

Wow. it's been only 4 days since I wrote about my dog's dry nose. It is
tremendously improved!

All I did was eliminate the vitamin A supplement (Casey - I agree. I wasn't
buying the deficiency anymore either, and I'm sure he's getting plenty in
the diet) and I did put some all-natural lip moisturizer on it. (Thanks
Natalie for that tip!) Almost all of the dry crumbles have sloughed off and
underneath is a remarkably healthy looking nose! It's really hard to
believe the change I've seen in such a short time!!! I'm also so frustrated
that when I asked that vet about it years ago that he just brushed it off as
"some dogs are like that" and so I did nothing for so long.

I'm not sure what did the trick. either putting a little moisturizer on it
has really helped, or the raw diet was doing it's magic and the reason it
looked dryer a few days ago was that it was just about to slough all that
old dry stuff off anyway.

I can't express my thanks enough to the great members on this list!!! I've
only been here a little less than a month and I've already seen you answer
so many of the same questions over and over! I think I can recite 80% meat,
10% bone, 10% organ (about half of that liver) and feed approx. 2-3% of your
dog's ideal mature weight (could be more or less depending on your dog) in
my sleep! You guys give so generously to each new member on this list!!!
My dogs, and I'm sure countless others, thank you!!!!

Karen (raw feeding for 2 weeks, 2 days and never going back!!!)

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
Posted by: "aimnhi49" linrho@gmail.com aimnhi49
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:29 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Alexis" <alexis78@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone heard about the possibility of rawfeeding causing a
> reduction in allergic reactions by humans to dogs/cats.

I don't post very often but I feel I have something to add to this
topic. After extensive allergy testing I found out I was highly
allergic to cats and advised never to own cats. We gradually ended
up adding indoor kibble-fed cats to our family and I was miserable.
Not only did our cats bother me, but also anyone else's. Then about
a year ago I began to research raw feeding and gradually switched
all cats to raw diet. I am no longer bothered by any allergic
symptoms!! My 8 mo kitten snuggles my neck and one sleeps at the
foot of my bed. We've since also added a Newf pup to our fur
family. And no allergic symptoms from any of my raw-fed fur
family. I do, however, have allergic symptoms when I visit homes of
k***e fed pets. Interesting! That's my allergy experience and I'm
totally convinced that there is definitely a connection between
rawfeeding and reduction in allergic symptoms.

Linda in NW Oregon

Messages in this topic (10)
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2b. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:23 pm ((PST))


On Dec 27, 2007, at 11:50 AM, Alexis wrote:

> Has anyone heard about the possibility of rawfeeding causing a
> reduction in allergic reactions by humans to dogs/cats. My boyfriend
> has become increasingly allergic to my 75lb hound/husky mix and I've
> started him on Raw as of about a month ago from the recommendation of
> the people at our pet store.

Yes, feeding your boyfriend raw will help his allergies, and every
other issue he has brewing. That's the nice thing about raw: everyone
in the house can share:)

ginny and Tomo, "She meant that..."

All stunts performed without a net!


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Messages in this topic (10)
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2c. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
Posted by: "Alexis" alexis78@gmail.com tiger_girl78
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:55 pm ((PST))

>I seriously doubt there is anything in raw food
> that would cause allergies to someone who is neither eating nor
> handling the meat.
>
> Sounds like another bad rap for raw.

I just want to clarify that the increased allergic reaction to the dog
dander has been building over the past year and a half and the switch
to raw-feeding was only a month ago. The suggestion to go Raw was at
the recommendation of the pet store personnel. So...in this case, Raw
is getting a good rap.

No way to tell yet if it's having a positive effect on the allergies
but I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Please continue with the input if
you know this to be a helpful solution. Thanks for the feedback!

-Alexis (& Cassius)

Messages in this topic (10)
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2d. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
Posted by: "Alexis" alexis78@gmail.com tiger_girl78
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:06 pm ((PST))


> Yes, feeding your boyfriend raw will help his allergies, and every
> other issue he has brewing. That's the nice thing about raw:
everyone
> in the house can share:)
>
>

HAHA! point taken! :)

Alexis (& Cassius & the perpetually vomimting boyfriend)

Messages in this topic (10)
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2e. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:47 pm ((PST))

"Alexis" <alexis78@...> wrote:
> I just want to clarify that the increased allergic reaction to the
dog
> dander has been building over the past year and a half and the switch
> to raw-feeding was only a month ago. The suggestion to go Raw was at
> the recommendation of the pet store personnel. So...in this case,
Raw
> is getting a good rap.
*****
On their part, yes. That rumor and innuendo would suggest raw food
increases the allergic response is the bad rap.

A healthy raw fed dog will continue to shed hair because shedding is
normal. And a healthy raw fed dog will continue to slough off dead
skin because that too is normal. Whether these processes affect your
BF more or less is the question, hey? My guess is there's more going
on with BF than with your dog...if your dog continues to improve in all
regards and the BF continues with his busted immune system, what will
you do? Hmmm.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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3a. Bones causing perforated intestines
Posted by: "Denise Farley" desheep59@northmo.net desheep59
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:41 pm ((PST))

Bones by themselves, without meat, fat, skin, whatever, is, there is little
doubt in my mind, what caused the problem. I did the same thing and no
problems until...one day and a dog that was ravenous and she chewed through
the bone so fast that the pieces balled up in her intestines causing not
only damage to the intestinal wall but a blockage as well. I did not feed
bones again.

While doing the research for the rawfeeding - which works wonderfully on my
10 year old with a heart problem for teeth cleaning - I hesitated and
hesitated but finally feed bones surrounded by meat and fat and whatever
else comes naturally on them. Very. Meaty. Bones. No recreational bones -
unless the beasties scrounge them up out of the field (I have sheep) and
then they are not gnawed on to extinction to the exclusion of all else.
Yes, I still have the 'white' poo sometimes that is associated with bone
eating, but have never had a problem since I quit the 'recreational bones'.

And that's my story.

Denise

On Dec 27, 2007 3:07 PM, cleone4100 <cleone4100@aol.com> wrote:

I was speaking with my new boss about feeding my dogs raw (which they
are doing wonderfully on) and he told me he had a springer spaniel
which died from eating bones. He fed her kibble and periodically gave
her large, raw beef bones for fun. She began having difficulty
eliminating and then one day began hemorraging and she died on the way
to the vets. The vet performed the autopsy and told him the bone shards
had perforated her bowels over time and not to feed bones under any
circumstances. I have only been giving my dogs chicken and pork since
that is what's affordable, along with beef heart and liver when I can
get it. Does anyone know what could have caused this to happen? Was it
just the fact that she was on kibble, and the bone was too much? Or
maybe the beef bones are the culprit?? Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks, Carey and the bloodhounds

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Messages in this topic (9)
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3b. Bones causing perforated intestines
Posted by: "Monica Hughes" monicabeth10@yahoo.com monicabeth10
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:41 pm ((PST))

Dear Carey,

I wouldn't feed large weight bearing beef bones. There are all sorts of problems with those types of bones. Two years ago, my lab found a cross sectional marrow bone in my yard (shared with four apartments) that was likely bought at a pet store, or that someone threw into my yard after cooking a ham. I am not sure if it was beef or a ham bone. It also may have been cooked. Anyway, he cracked it in half before I could get to him, swallowed half of it, and it got stuck in his esophagus. The vet told me if they could push the bone into the stomach the acid would dissolve it. They couldn't dislodge it and I had to put him down.

I tend to agree with the advice given by others here, though I'm very new to raw feeding and this list: recreational bones are wreck bones.

I can't give any opinion on beef rib bones, but I'm sure other members are more knowledgable in that arena.

Monica


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Messages in this topic (9)
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3c. Re: Bones causing perforated intestines
Posted by: "Amy Tracy" amypatriciatracy@gmail.com rosiesmomlovesrosie
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:27 pm ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.


oh, recreational bones, huh? are the knuckle bones with all of the
googlies attached from petco a "no no"? and what about rawhide? also,
one of her favorite treats as I go off to work in the A.M. is a peanut
butter filled kong (all natural, of course). is that okay?? she also
gets bully sticks and beef trachea from bestbullysticks.com. how do
you guys feel about my these? Amy and Rosie


Messages in this topic (9)
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3d. Bones causing perforated intestines
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:59 pm ((PST))

"Amy Tracy" <amypatriciatracy@...> wrote:
are the knuckle bones with all of the
> googlies attached from petco a "no no"
*****
Yes, yes, they are a no no. Not only are they the very sort of bone
that breaks teeth, the Petco version is cooked and heaven knows where
the bones came from. Bad altogether.


and what about rawhide?
*****
Source is also questionable, as is processing technique. Additionally,
a significant problem with rawhide is how easily a dog can rip off
sodden hunks that can get stuck going down or go down then swell up. I
stopped using rawhide chews years and years ago, even before a dear
friend lost a wonderful dog to an unsupervised rawhide choking
incident. No, no rawhide chews.


also,
> one of her favorite treats as I go off to work in the A.M. is a peanut
> butter filled kong (all natural, of course). is that okay??
*****
This sounds awfully fattening and as Ginny wrote recently (here I
believe though perhaps on RawChat) peanuts are legumes which are not
healthy for man or dog. I am a big fan of Kongs but I've rarely
stuffed them with any more than a dozen or so treaty bits. Personally,
I vote no on Kongs stuffed with peanut butter.


she also
> gets bully sticks and beef trachea from bestbullysticks.com. how do
> you guys feel about my these?
*****
I think these are more like it!
Chris O


Messages in this topic (9)
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3e. Bones causing perforated intestines
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:29 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Amy Tracy" <amypatriciatracy@...>
wrote:
> oh, recreational bones, huh? are the knuckle bones with all of the
> googlies attached from petco a "no no"?

Hi Amy,

Yes, they are a big NO.

> and what about rawhide?
I don't feed raw hides. I think my dogs get all the chewing action
they need from their raw food meals. Raw hide are supposedly
preserved with natural stuff, but natural to me is real meat and
bones, no preservatives or additives.

>also,
> one of her favorite treats as I go off to work in the A.M. is a
peanut > butter filled kong (all natural, of course). is that okay??

The kong is certainly ok, but i would ditch the peanut butter and try
freezing the kong with ground meat inside. Works good and is
healthier for a dog since peanut butter couldn't really be called
species appropriate food.

she also
> gets bully sticks and beef trachea from bestbullysticks.com. how do
> you guys feel about my these?

Finally, i can give you a 2 thumbs up. KathyM

Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. New to this - what do you think?
Posted by: "Monica Hughes" monicabeth10@yahoo.com monicabeth10
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:41 pm ((PST))

Oh boy can I sympathize. I found that getting my cat on raw food took months. I recommend offering very small portions of many different types of foods. After almost 9 months, my 8 year old cat still likes the food cut into golf ball sized pieces. She just won't eat anything larger than that yet. I'm working upwards in size. She was fed kibble for 8 years, and transitioning cats can be more difficult than transitioning dogs. My cat would still prefer kibble than raw, but she eats raw heartily now, and I don't offer kibble at all.

Offer as many types of food as you can find. This is key. You may find, for instance, that your cats will eat chicken liver one day but not the next. Chicken meat on bone one day, but not the next. Chicken heart one day, not the next. At first, my cat would NOT eat chicken meat, and that's all I was offering for weeks. Then, one day I set down a quail wing. BINGO! It was gone within minutes, bone and all. She'd never eaten bone before, or quail, and here she was scarfing it down. Then soon I was buying pheasant because I couldn't find quail. Then I got her to eat duck, which she loved. Now that she's used to raw meat, she eats all types of fowl, and fish. I have been able to transition her to mostly chicken and duck, which are a whole lot cheaper than pheasant. Sheesh!

Go buy a chicken and a duck and a fish (a rabbit if you can find one) and cut them all up in small pieces and freeze them in baggies. Offer a little bit each day. I really bet that will do the trick.

Good luck and have fun. It WILL work eventually. Stick at it.

Monica


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Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. Re: GI Normous Dogs
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:41 pm ((PST))

Hi Sandee,

I've had her thyroid tested, but if it can be caused by stress then
it could have very well been stress. She had a big, painful slab
fracture in her back tooth at the time. Thanks for the insight. That
explains why Dr. Dodds didn't seem too concerned with it.

Do you feed a lot of fat to your danes?

Ania

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Ania,
>
> A heavy dog with high cholesterol shouts hypothyroidism! Elevated
> cholesterol in the blood can be caused by stress, exercise or a
recent
> meal....and various other diseases, rather than diet.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang


Messages in this topic (12)
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5b. Re: GI Normous Dogs
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:45 pm ((PST))

Hi Ania,

OK...glad you have had her tested for thyroid.

I would imagine I do feed a fair amount of fat...I feed a lot of red meat
and don't trim anything.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Ania Tysarczyk" <AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net>

I've had her thyroid tested, but if it can be caused by stress then
it could have very well been stress. She had a big, painful slab
fracture in her back tooth at the time. Thanks for the insight. That
explains why Dr. Dodds didn't seem too concerned with it.

Do you feed a lot of fat to your danes?

Messages in this topic (12)
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6a. New here & ready to start
Posted by: "Monica Hughes" monicabeth10@yahoo.com monicabeth10
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:41 pm ((PST))

Hi Jean. I had a horribly allergic dog for years. He was not just allergic to grains, he was allergic to many meats as well. Dogs being allergic to some meats is not a myth. It's not as common as vets would want us to believe -- they commonly pin the blame on chicken, beef, etc. so they can you to buy crazy kibble diets like sweet potato and fish, or kibbled kangaroo. But it does happen. My dog had terrible inhalant allergies and food allergies. Often, it's a consequence of poor breeding.

I would say try chicken or turkey and see how it goes. If the itchiness does not subside after several months, try another meat. If it does subside, that's awesome! But if it does not, eventually you may need to move to a meat the dog has never had, like rabbit, venison, etc. I found that my dog was allergic to practically every meat except fish. Will all of the elimination diets I tried, it took me 8 years to figure all of this out. His inhalant allergies were still very bad, but I was able to significantly decrease the amount of prednisone over time.

Monica


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Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. Do you guys worry
Posted by: "cutensexyb89" cutensexyb89@yahoo.com cutensexyb89
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:28 pm ((PST))

About Salmonella or e. coli?
Not the dogs, but in humans?

My dogs rip apart raw meat with their mouth and paws and then run
inside and step on the furniture, and lick people. One of my dogs
puked up raw egg on the bed. (she got overly excited)

Is this something to be concerned about?

Also they have been doing good eating just bone and chicken, I want to
try some beef, besides ribs what are some good starting meats? And
when should I introduce organs?

Madie

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: Do you guys worry
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:36 pm ((PST))

Nope...no more worries than when they were fed kibble. Those bacteria are
everywhere, in the stool of healthy dogs and humans regardless of diet.
Before raw they licked their own and other butts <g>, ate gross things they
picked up out and about....raw is quite safe! :))

You can add little bits of organs and small amounts of some new protein to
the chicken meal any time. Beef brisket, heart, cheeks...anything pork,
lamb, fish, turkey...whatever you have available. If you feed beef ribs you
need to add meat and remove bones once they are stripped.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "cutensexyb89" <cutensexyb89@yahoo.com>


About Salmonella or e. coli?
Not the dogs, but in humans?

My dogs rip apart raw meat with their mouth and paws and then run
inside and step on the furniture, and lick people. One of my dogs
puked up raw egg on the bed. (she got overly excited)

Is this something to be concerned about?

Also they have been doing good eating just bone and chicken, I want to
try some beef, besides ribs what are some good starting meats? And
when should I introduce organs?


Messages in this topic (4)
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7c. Re: Do you guys worry
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:02 pm ((PST))

I don't. I generally wait about 1 hour before engaging in face
licking...or rather allowing them to lick my face but other than that I
don't. I've been raw feeding about 7-8 yrs now, and I'm immune compromised
and have never been sick. IMO the dangers of food borne illness is
overstated. If you have normal cleaning practices you should be fine.

Karen


On Dec 27, 2007 8:47 PM, cutensexyb89 <cutensexyb89@yahoo.com> wrote:
> About Salmonella or e. coli?
> Not the dogs, but in humans?
--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."
LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
LID 8/23/07
LOA 11/9/07
TA 12/6/07
CA 01/14/08 @ 10:30am
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.
~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~


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7d. Re: Do you guys worry
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:03 pm ((PST))

Salmonella and e. coli are EVERYWHERE. You'll track nastier stuff in
the house from the bottoms of your shoes than what's on raw meat. I've
actually handled raw meat and forgot to wash my hands and handled my
own food many , many times without ever getting sick. Ironically the
only time I got sick was eating a VEGETARIAN burrito from a
restuarant. Oh, and my dog licks on me all the time (except my face
because I hate that) and I've never gotten sick. I'm pretty sure a
dogs saliva takes care of the bacteria from meat.

About the beef, I have only had success feeding ox tails. They are
pretty meaty and have the most edible bone I can find.

Heather

Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. Re: Looking to switch, but worried about Chicken protein sensitivity
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:02 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ekendahl" <robert@...> wrote:
>
> I assume chicken backs are used mostly for the price?

They are used in the early stages of the diet because they are
boney. Bone is a constipator and eating a lot of bone in the
beginning greatly decreases if not totally eliminates the chances of
diarrhea.

Later in the diet, its mostly for price. I can buy chicken backs
for 25 cents/lb. By buying part of the diet at that price means I
can spend $2-$3/lb for good stuff and still keep feeding bills
reasonable.

> *** Am I missing anything? ***

I'm sure you will think of something after you get started but it
sounds like you have planned it out very well.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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8b. Re: Looking to switch, but worried about Chicken protein sensitivity
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:06 pm ((PST))

No need to wait until you have a freezer. Go down to your market and buy a
few whole chickens, cut them in quarters and feed dogs! Easy! :) By the
time they eat a few of those, they will be ready for another protein source.

I'm not certain about Mayflower...you will have to do some price checking.
You may just find you can get as good or better prices in your local markets
if you watch for sales. For instance, this week at my local Safeway whole
chickens are .69/lb. and pork roasts .99/lb...and most people get them far
cheaper but I am in a remote location and for me that's *good*! :)

Nothing special about chicken backs other than the price...they are far too
bony and by the time you buy extra meat to add to them, your savings has
gone down the drain.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "ekendahl" <robert@ekendahl.org>


So here is my plan, once I get a chest freezer...

For Newton my 3+ year old Shepherd, currently 99lbs and probably
ideally weighing around 90 -95 lbs, I will feed around 1.8+ lbs of
chicken-backs/day for the first week or so I will then expand into
other forms of protein.

For his "brother" Darwin, 15 months, 65 lbs and very active, I will
feed a little less then 1.8 lbs as I think his targeted final weight
"should" be 85-90 lbs as he's slighty smaller then his brother.


Messages in this topic (7)
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9a. Re: ichy skin!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:04 pm ((PST))

>I dont know what other kind of bones I can give him.

When I read on puppy feeding,they seem to crush bone with hummer a little so that the pup can eat it without any prob. I am not sure how long they do though.I still have not learnt on that yet. Myself does not have small dog or puppy so,I do nt have experience doing so.

However, I think principal is give more meat than bone. Bone is around 10- 15%. of course each dog has different reaction to different thing so,your dog may may not need more bone and may may not need less bone etc.You need to figure out how much bone work for your dog.

But when your dog has loose stool,generally,giving more bone help and if that did not help,skin off the meat and add the skin back in after you get nice poo.

How long have you been on raw feeding?

You wrote something like you fed red meat here and there but if you were just starting out and if you suddenly added red meat here and there,that might have been a prob of loose stool. When I started out,I generally took 1 week on one protin and then,move on to the other. Like when I fed chicken I spent about 4-5 days and she had nice poo so,I moved on to adding organ to chickenb and stayed on it a while and then,moved on to Beef. When beef,I spent probably 3 days each on boneless meat,heart,and tongue and some is mixed with Neck and Rib.After she went through all protins source I wanted to introduce,I started mixed and match thing like i do now. Like today,she had Turkey,Turkey liver,and Beef heart.

and I try not to feed too much poultry now but when I started out,I did not care about that because primary thing at that time was to let her getting used to each protin and digest well.

I recommend that you wait on fish oil and feed chicken until your dog gets digest it well on it and then,move on to beef or pork or lamb or something else and see if it helps.If not,try adding fish oil to meal.If you were feeding chicken quite long,it is possible that since poultry is high in omega 6,the dog needed more omega 3 in diet. Or chicken you got was enhanced someway and that may triggered loose poo or itchness.Try reading the label.Small letters. It should say solution or enhancement if they did and if not,it should say retaining water x% in it.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (7)
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10a. How much poop should I expect?
Posted by: "Monica Hughes" monicabeth10@yahoo.com monicabeth10
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:29 pm ((PST))

Hi folks --

I've been feeding my new dog (shepherd collie mix?, adopted from a shelter) a raw diet for about two weeks now. Whole turkeys, chicken thighs, some organs. She loves it, but has had diarrhea off and on since I got her. Unfortunately, I found out yesterday that she has giardia, which is rampant in our area. (I didn't tell the vet about the raw diet as I was afraid they'd blame it on that and I knew the problem was deeper than that.)

Once the medication starts to work, I expect her stools to decrease in number and size. But I guess I'm just wondering what to expect exactly, because she has never relieved herself very quickly on a walk, even with the diarrhea problem.

So, how often do your dogs poop? Once a day? More than that? Less than that? Just curious. I'm very familiar with the infrequent small stools in my raw fed cat, but I'm just not used to seeing it in a dog. Today she did not poop all day.

Monica


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Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: How much poop should I expect?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:12 pm ((PST))

Hi Monica,

Here's the link to a recent post I wrote about this:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/149604

Let us know if you have more questions.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Monica Hughes <monicabeth10@...>
wrote:
> So, how often do your dogs poop? Once a day? More than that? Less
than that? Just curious. I'm very familiar with the infrequent small
stools in my raw fed cat, but I'm just not used to seeing it in a dog.
Today she did not poop all day.


Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

11. Grant is Sick: Diagnosis Pancreatitis
Posted by: "redraider_alh" redraider_alh@yahoo.com redraider_alh
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:12 pm ((PST))

Hello all,

It has been a while since I have posted or checked the groups discussions. I logged back
on today and searched the archives for information on pancreatitis.

I am out of town through the New Year. My pet sitter (also our vet tech) called yesterday
when Grant wouldn't eat, had diarrhea and was lethargic. We agreed to assess him this
morning. She took him in when he was worse this morning w/ vomiting, diarrhea,
lethargy and excessive thirst. After exam, blood work, etc. he was diagnosed with
pancreatitis. (No underlying diabetes, etc)

Grant is a 92 lb, 2 yo, Bouvier and has been raw fed for the last year since I've had him.
No previous illness history other than a brief, "lethargic, not himself" bout back in May
when we weren't able to find anything clinically wrong. He is fed raw meaty bones such as
Ckn Qtrs, duck frames, turkey, lamb, goat, etc. The dogs have been eating more ckn qtrs
than usual as I've been traveling quite a bit with the holidays and they are easy for the
sitter to feed.

So...the dilemma now--In the past, the staff at the clinic were unable to argue with our
RAW feeding since my dogs are healthy, etc. Now, I'm being told he'll more than likely
need special "kibble" food and that our RAW feeding is to blame since the bacteria on the
food is what more than likely caused the overgrowth of the enzymes in the pancreas. In
addition, the fat content of the raw feeding will more than likely cause problems in the
future now that we have "pancreatic history."

Now what? Anyone else with 'pancreatic' canine kids? And what are the truths to the
whole RAW/pancreatic issues?

Thank you in advance for your help!

Abbey & the canine kids-Grant, Berklee & Mattie

PS--A second opinion for diagnosis is not possible since I'm a 1000 miles away from
home. However, based on the tests, blood work and numbers I was told, I do feel safe
with the diagnosis.

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12425

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Question about bones
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
1b. Re: Question about bones
From: costrowski75
1c. Re: Question about bones
From: Patty Linden

2a. Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
From: Alexis
2b. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
From: Andrea
2c. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
From: ekendahl
2d. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
From: Andrea
2e. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
From: costrowski75

3. Stater Bros. Markets in So Cal
From: Susan Fortune

4a. Jumping in starting tomorrow
From: homesforallpets
4b. Dehydrated Foods
From: eventer2001
4c. Re: Dehydrated Foods
From: costrowski75
4d. Re: Jumping in starting tomorrow
From: Heather

5a. Re: ichy skin!
From: pfs.freedom

6a. Re: GI Normous Dogs/fat content in diet
From: Laurie Swanson

7a. Bones causing perforated intestines
From: cleone4100
7b. Re: Bones causing perforated intestines
From: Tina Berry
7c. Re: Bones causing perforated intestines
From: Andrea
7d. Re: Bones causing perforated intestines
From: Heather

8a. Re: Update on Ginger (diarrhea)
From: shefy gupta

9a. Re: Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)
From: costrowski75
9b. Re: Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)
From: trayc2244

10a. Re: GI Normous Dogs
From: Ania Tysarczyk
10b. Re: GI Normous Dogs
From: Sandee Lee

11a. Re: Looking to switch, but worried about Chicken protein sensitivity
From: ekendahl


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Question about bones
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:20 am ((PST))

My little pomchi used to be owned by my Aunt, before she passed away. I love this dog, she is such a great little carnivore. She takes the big dogs bones away from them (they are danes) and chews on them. She loves ribs, both beef and pork, and she likes emu ribs too. Any bone that has a little meat on it, she's happy with, and I'm sure yours would be too. My Daisy doesn't do too much damage to her teeth, but if you are worried about yours, you might stick with softer type bones, the emu is really nice and soft, even the ribs. And on pork bones, the ribs are nice enough that they can chew alot off the ends to get good bone benefit from them.
Try what you want and watch how the dog does, and see how it goes, should be just fine.
Jeni
Owned and operated by my two danes and our pomchi, and our new addition, a chihuahua, noname for now, and the cat, lucky, just lucky he's not the food for today.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Question about bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:57 pm ((PST))

Patty Linden <pattykat3@...> wrote:
> My question is, will chewing on beef rib bones be good for his
teeth?
*****
Well, chewing the meat and fat and connective off the rib bones ought
to be good for his teeth. But chewing beef bones is rarely good for
any dog's teeth. Given the choice between beef bones and pork bones,
IMO there is no choice.

Pork bones (ribs, hocks, feet, arm bones, shoulder blade bones,
necks) are generally more gentle on teeth and the meat is perfectly
edible. You will need to take care with introducing the meat (tis
fatty) but since you've learned THOSE lessons well, I suspect you
won't have much trouble.


I
> like the idea of giving him a big chunk of meat with bone so he
can work on it.
*****
Yes, this is a very gratifying experience. Pork shoulders answer the
call--just trimmed out to Pom size; pork riblets (often known as
brisket bone) will do the same.

You may also want to investigate beef necks (not the slices
frequently sold in supermarkets but rather a longer stretch of a
neck). They aren't much for meat but they provide great "whittle and
pick" opportunities and for a small dog the meat they DO offer may be
just enough meat indeed. Pork necks act in pretty much the same way.
Chris O


Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: Question about bones
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:47 pm ((PST))

Thank you to Chris, Sandee, Yasuko and Jeni for your answers about bones. I will save the beef bones for me, and went down and bought some large slabs of pork ribs today. Jeni--you must live in Australia? I have seen a number of people mention Emu meat and bones. I live in Spokane, WA, and have never seen them in the stores here. It sounds like pork (ribs, anyway) can be crunched and digested? I so want to find him another source of bone, rather than chicken all the time.
Many thanks,
Patty and Mica-dog

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote: Patty Linden <pattykat3@...> wrote:
> My question is, will chewing on beef rib bones be good for his
teeth?
*****
Well, chewing the meat and fat and connective off the rib bones ought
to be good for his teeth. But chewing beef bones is rarely good for
any dog's teeth. Given the choice between beef bones and pork bones,
IMO there is no choice.

Pork bones (ribs, hocks, feet, arm bones, shoulder blade bones,
necks) are generally more gentle on teeth and the meat is perfectly
edible.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
Posted by: "Alexis" alexis78@gmail.com tiger_girl78
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:08 pm ((PST))

Has anyone heard about the possibility of rawfeeding causing a
reduction in allergic reactions by humans to dogs/cats. My boyfriend
has become increasingly allergic to my 75lb hound/husky mix and I've
started him on Raw as of about a month ago from the recommendation of
the people at our pet store. Thus far, I've been feeding him the pre-
packaged patties but after joining this group I will be starting him on
the recommended raw prey style this Friday.

I think this diet is great and will keep him on it regardless because I
can see the obvious benefits however, I would like to know if anyone
has heard of this or is it just a rumor. Thank you!

-Alexis (& Cassius)

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:18 pm ((PST))

Actually that is what seems to have happened with me and my bf's cats.
When we first moved in together I was taking prescription allergy
medicine every day just so I didn't scratch my own eyes out. After we
finally got them switched to raw my boyfriend observed that I didn't
compulsively take the allergy medicine anymore and I wasn't dying. I
still have to wash my hands after petting the cats, but I don't have to
take anything for allergies anymore. I don't know for sure that raw
feeding them is what did it, but I'm still allergic to my mom's kibble
addict cats.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Alexis" <alexis78@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone heard about the possibility of rawfeeding causing a
> reduction in allergic reactions by humans to dogs/cats.

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
Posted by: "ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:44 pm ((PST))

=======Mod note: pls sign all emails =============

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> Actually that is what seems to have happened with me and my bf's cats.
>

I'm not sure about this. When I first adopted my cat (from the street)
I turned very allergic to her; to the point where I was almost giving
her up. At that point I stopped taking the medicine, as it was making
me drowsy, and to my surprise my symptoms went away. My cat was and is
still being fed kibble.

I think we people get either used to pets or even more allergic to
them over the first time. Not convinced it's related to raw feeding.

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:49 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ekendahl" <robert@...> wrote:

> I think we people get either used to pets or even more allergic to
> them over the first time. Not convinced it's related to raw feeding.

I'm not convinced either, but I lived with my mom's cats for five years
and never got used to them. Could be a coincidence that I stopped
reacting to our cats at the same time they started eating raw food. If
only I could get my mom to switch her cats to raw I could see if it
makes any difference.

Andrea


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

2e. Re: Rawfeeding and human allergies to dogs?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:39 pm ((PST))

"Alexis" <alexis78@...> wrote:
>My boyfriend
> has become increasingly allergic to my 75lb hound/husky mix and I've
> started him on Raw as of about a month ago from the recommendation of
> the people at our pet store.
*****
It's possible that increased shedding due to diet change might be
causing your BF to respond badly. But increased shedding is also a
reult of dry, overheated houses and seasonal changes and stress, so
perhaps it's an assortment of environmental issues that have conspired
to bother your BF. I seriously doubt there is anything in raw food
that would cause allergies to someone who is neither eating nor
handling the meat.

Sounds like another bad rap for raw.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

3. Stater Bros. Markets in So Cal
Posted by: "Susan Fortune" desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net cactususan
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:44 pm ((PST))

Whole chicken $.69 per #.
Chicken thighs or drums $.99 per #.
Beef back ribs $.67 per #.
Pork country style strips (bone in) $.99 per #.

Good Dec 26-Jan 1.

Susan
Southern California


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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Jumping in starting tomorrow
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:35 pm ((PST))

I looked at everything I have and the majority is chicken. I have
enough to last until Monday when I can get more. I'm going to go
ahead and just jump in tomorrow. I will start with wingettes. When
they are gone they will get the . . .its either drumsticks or leg
quarters. I figure I will wait two weeks before offering any organs.

Wish me luck!

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Dehydrated Foods
Posted by: "eventer2001" eventer2001@yahoo.com eventer2001
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:01 pm ((PST))

Anyone have any experience (or opinions) on using dehydrated foods? Not for main meals, but as treats? Stuff like chicken liver cubes or even muscle meats? We weren't using them and something needed to be done before they went bad, so I cut up and dehydrated some chicken livers last night. I know I can't use a TON of them, but the pup doesn't have the attention span right now to have lengthy training sessions anyway. Any pros or cons? Things to watch out for or definitely NOT do (besides the obvious - no dehydrated bones of course).

Thanks
Tammy
& Reilly - aka Adama's Watchtower at TLC
Dayton, Ohio


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Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: Dehydrated Foods
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:44 pm ((PST))

ADMIN NOTE: The minute this topic mutates into a "how to" discussion
it will become OT and will thefore be inappropriate for this list.
Please plan ahead. If someone has the notion to ask "how", please
ask "how" on the RawChat list, not here. Thanks.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: Jumping in starting tomorrow
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:49 pm ((PST))

How exciting! Let us know how it goes! I think you'll have fun
watching them eat. :)

Heather

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: ichy skin!
Posted by: "pfs.freedom" staylor@chjinc.com pfs.freedom
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:36 pm ((PST))

Hey thanks for the advice. The fish oil is to help if he has dry itchy
skin, but I guess if its going to make his poops worse, I will wait on
that.
I was giving him chicken wing/leg meat and occasionly, because he is so
small, give him just one of the bones from the wing. but it is such a
pain to cut up the wings I just bought the breast with ribs so it would
be easier. should I go back to the wing bones? He has such a tiny mouth
I dont know what other kind of bones I can give him.

I thought having a small dog would be easy to feed raw, but now im
thinking it would be nice to just throw a whole carcas to a big dog.
Its cheaper at least to feed my little guy hahaha.

Shannon & Brody

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
If you change breast wityh rib bone to leg quarter or back part of
birds which has more bone than ribs,that bone amount may help the dog
to have non loose stool,maybe??

>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: GI Normous Dogs/fat content in diet
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:37 pm ((PST))

Hi PK,

Laurie from Seattle w/Bugs & Percy here...

I know I have a bit of a different take on fat than some others here,
but will mention my thoughts. Unless we feed wild game, we are feeding
fattier meats than nature intended, and with different fatty profiles
if they are fed grains or other inappropriate foods. When the animals
we feed have hardly moved around for their lives, and/or are fattened
up with huge amounts of unnatural grains, they just can't be as healthy
as grass-fed and, even better--wild--animals.

Now, of course, this is difficult to find and afford. So, we do the
best we can. But it is something to consider--especially if a dog is
having an issue. If you can and you haven't tried this already, I
think you might try feeding her lean cuts, cutting skin and visible fat
off, feeding grass-fed meats if you can, etc. Have you tried this
before and it has led to dry skin? I know people have mentioned adding
fat to diets to help with dry skin, but I also question this. Perhaps
if someone is feeding a lot of chicken, adding red meat of some kind
(and therefore, fat) helps. But I don't know if it's really the fat
that helps, or if it's just that the diet is improved by adding a more
appropriate protein source with different vitamins and minerals. But
if one feeds a lot of lean red meats, with some rabbit and poultry, I
would bet the skin would usually be fine. If not, it could be the
grass-fed issue. She may be showing an issue with the amount and/or
type of fats she's eating.

Good luck,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "PK Shader" <Forloveofdogs@...>
wrote:
> As far as fat content is concerned all her meats can be counted as
> high fat except for venison and mice (I don' really know about the
> mice) maybe. Beef, lamb, chicken, turkey, etc. and she loves the
> bones probably more than the meat.
>
> Do you have any "low fat" suggestions that will not cause her skin to
dry?
>


Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Bones causing perforated intestines
Posted by: "cleone4100" cleone4100@aol.com cleone4100
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:37 pm ((PST))

I was speaking with my new boss about feeding my dogs raw (which they
are doing wonderfully on) and he told me he had a springer spaniel
which died from eating bones. He fed her kibble and periodically gave
her large, raw beef bones for fun. She began having difficulty
eliminating and then one day began hemorraging and she died on the way
to the vets. The vet performed the autopsy and told him the bone shards
had perforated her bowels over time and not to feed bones under any
circumstances. I have only been giving my dogs chicken and pork since
that is what's affordable, along with beef heart and liver when I can
get it. Does anyone know what could have caused this to happen? Was it
just the fact that she was on kibble, and the bone was too much? Or
maybe the beef bones are the culprit?? Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks, Carey and the bloodhounds

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Bones causing perforated intestines
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:00 pm ((PST))

"The vet performed the autopsy and told him the bone shards had perforated
her bowels over time and not to feed bones under any circumstances. I have
only been giving my dogs chicken and pork since that is what's affordable,
along with beef heart and liver when I can get it. Does anyone know what
could have caused this to happen? Was it just the fact that she was on
kibble, and the bone was too much?"

Yep - you guessed it. Kibble fed dogs have not developed the digestive
enzymes for raw food let alone bones. So by him only giving them to her
once in awhile, that makes sense that her system could not handle digesting
the bones.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

7c. Re: Bones causing perforated intestines
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:17 pm ((PST))

Well, first of all beef bones are really dense and some dogs may not
digest them completely. That said, I'd bet the bones were those smoked
femurs that you get from the pet store, not actually raw bones. The
cooked bones splinter and don't digest well at all.

As long as you feed edible bones (not beef femurs) that are covered
with meat your dogs will be ok. They are designed to eat that way.
It's when people feed inappropriate items like bare bones or cooked
bones that you end up with problems.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cleone4100" <cleone4100@...> wrote:

> He fed her kibble and periodically gave her large, raw beef bones for
> fun. She began having difficulty eliminating and then one day began
> hemorraging and she died on the way to the vets. The vet performed
> the autopsy and told him the bone shards had perforated her bowels
> over time and not to feed bones under any circumstances.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

7d. Re: Bones causing perforated intestines
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:49 pm ((PST))

Even bones that are thick and used mostly for chewing do not splinter
when raw. I give giant beef ribs to my dog and the best he can do with
that density is to chew the corners down about an inch and rip the
meat off. The bone he does get off is just like small gravel like
pieces, not splinters. I would never ever feed cooked "chew" bones
made for dogs because not only can this kinda stuff happen but they
can break teeth. It's so unfortunate that people think raw bones are
bad for dogs and they must give them smoked/cooked.

Heather

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Update on Ginger (diarrhea)
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:08 pm ((PST))


Hi kate,

glad to hear ginger is doing better. obviously something is causing the diarhea though and the prednisone is just covering up the symptoms. i think diarhea is the body's defense mechanism to push out something it doesn't agree with...

i can't remember ginger's full story over the past few months but maybe she's allergic to one of the animals or some juices in the meat...? i know snowy got itchy and that's because the chicken i got him had some juices in it of i don't know what!

it's good that she's finally gotten relief though! hopefully the vet can figure out why her body's got diarhea all the time though..

keep us posted and enjoy diarhea free holidays ;)

shefy and snowy


But I just had to tell you what my wonderful (conventional) vet said
at our visit on Friday, before prescribing the prednisone. She was
mulling over putting Ginger on an intestinal-diet kibble. I was by
that time so desperate that I would've done it, and told her so. But
she stopped and said, "I really don't want to take her off the raw
since she's doing so well on it. Clearly it is not contributing to
her problem, and I feel she won't be as healthy on canned or kibbled
food."

There is hope for change with open-minded vets like this one!

Kate

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Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:19 pm ((PST))

"trayc2244" <BreeZ119@...> wrote:
>
> Is this something to worry about when feeding deer meat?
*****
No, it is not.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:48 pm ((PST))

Thanks, I had never heard of it and didn't know if dogs could contract
it.

Thanks again,
Tracy

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: GI Normous Dogs
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:48 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "PK Shader" <Forloveofdogs@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Ania Tysarczyk" <AniaJRT@> wrote:
> Oh My Gosh!!! Ania is that YOU??

***It's me :) Good to hear from you.

>
> Do you have any "low fat" suggestions that will not cause her skin
to dry?
>
>
***We actually do pretty low fat on the girls diets here. Sadie does
not do well with lots of fat (throws it up) and Sofie is kind of a
lazy bum (for a JRT) and does not burn it off. At first I was giving
Sofie more fat because she was thinner, but not only did she get fat,
she had dental surgery recently and her bloodwork came back with her
cholesterol a bit high. So, now I'm also of the opinion that the fat
content in the food should be more like in the wild. Mice, rabbits and
venison should be nice lean meats. If you can get rabbits or quail,
those are a perfect fat content and generally wild animals are very
lean. Otherwise, you can do what we do and just trim the skin and fat
off her meat.

I don't think the skin would suffer from less fat if you are
supplementing with some type of fish oil or feeding some fish once a
week or so.

I think between cutting the fat out a bit and the food down a little,
you can find a good balance for her.

I think their metabolisms change a bit as they get older just like
ours do too. I just noticed that recently in one of mine when she went
from skinny to fat without me increasing her food or decreasing her
excercise. She just seems to need less now. So, maybe yoru girl is
going through something similar.

Ania

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: GI Normous Dogs
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:02 pm ((PST))

Ania,

A heavy dog with high cholesterol shouts hypothyroidism! Elevated
cholesterol in the blood can be caused by stress, exercise or a recent
meal....and various other diseases, rather than diet.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Ania Tysarczyk" <AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net>
>
***We actually do pretty low fat on the girls diets here. Sadie does
not do well with lots of fat (throws it up) and Sofie is kind of a
lazy bum (for a JRT) and does not burn it off. At first I was giving
Sofie more fat because she was thinner, but not only did she get fat,
she had dental surgery recently and her bloodwork came back with her
cholesterol a bit high.

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Looking to switch, but worried about Chicken protein sensitivity
Posted by: "ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:29 pm ((PST))

I wanted to thank people for the advice given, it makes me feel more
secure. I think I'm going to take my chances and switch both my
Shepherds over to raw feeding, starting out with chicken parts
(chicken backs) and then expanding as per Bill Carnes page
(http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm). I assume chicken backs are
used mostly for the price?

Hopefully Newton will not react badly to the chicken, but if he had
the runs for >2 weeks I might decide to switch to something else. I'll
keep people informed with how it goes.

A cool thing I realized is that a "famous" Somerville, MA butcher shop
next to me are really aware of the BARF diet and even have it on their
web site -> http://www.mayflowerpoultry.com/barf_diet.html

I went in to the store today and talked to them and prices seemed
reasonable (and the place is clean) even if they where out of chicken
backs. Do anyone have experience with this butcher shop? They seemed
really friendly!

So here is my plan, once I get a chest freezer...

For Newton my 3+ year old Shepherd, currently 99lbs and probably
ideally weighing around 90 -95 lbs, I will feed around 1.8+ lbs of
chicken-backs/day for the first week or so I will then expand into
other forms of protein.

For his "brother" Darwin, 15 months, 65 lbs and very active, I will
feed a little less then 1.8 lbs as I think his targeted final weight
"should" be 85-90 lbs as he's slighty smaller then his brother.

So basically both dogs get the same amount of protein and together
that's 3.6 lb each day (!). That's a lot of chicken, I'm sure they
will love it. My goal is to be able to feed them a "reasonable" amount
of food each meal and still keep them trim and healthy.

After a week or so I will introduce them to turkey, then fish, pork
etc. But the main-stay of the diet will be chicken (to keep the price
reasonable), as long as Newton can cope with it (and I think he will).

My plan is to continue feeding them 2xday, mostly out of routine, but
also since their stomaches tend to get too empty at day-care (throwing
up bile) if I don't feed them in the morning.

oh! And I will look into buying cheap floor mats for my kitchen.
"Unfortunately" I have an open floor plan so I will need to teach them
to eat their prey on the floor mats.

*** Am I missing anything? ***

/Robert Ekendahl


Messages in this topic (5)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12424

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Looking to switch, but worried about Chicken protein sensitivity
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Looking to switch, but worried about Chicken protein sensitivity
From: Andrea
1c. Looking to switch, but worried about Chicken protein sensitivity
From: monsterjam2@aol.com

2a. Re: No idea how to start...
From: Andrea

3a. Re: barfing up pieces of bone
From: Andrea
3b. Re: barfing up pieces of bone
From: Heather

4a. Re: gassy pup
From: Tracy Meal

5a. Re: ichy skin!
From: pfs.freedom
5b. Re: ichy skin!
From: Sandee Lee
5c. Re: ichy skin!
From: Yasuko herron

6a. Re: GI Normous Dogs
From: PK Shader
6b. Re: GI Normous Dogs
From: PK Shader
6c. Re: GI Normous Dogs
From: Andrea

7a. Re: Anal gland problems
From: Heather
7b. Re: Anal gland problems
From: katkellm

8a. feeding?
From: joan
8b. Re: feeding?
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Update on Ginger (diarrhea)
From: costrowski75

10a. Question about bones
From: Patty Linden
10b. Re: Question about bones
From: Sandee Lee
10c. Re: Question about bones
From: Yasuko herron

11a. Re: First time shopping for raw - -wishme luck
From: homesforallpets

12a. Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)
From: trayc2244
12b. Re: Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)
From: Sandee Lee
12c. Re: Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)
From: Joanne Thompson


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Looking to switch, but worried about Chicken protein sensitivity
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:44 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ekendahl" <robert@...> wrote:
>
> * Do you think Newton is sensitive to chicken?

Won't know for sure until you try it but I doubt it.

> * Is sensitivity to chicken protein common?

Very rare

> * Any chance raw chicken protein can be handled better then cooked?

Very much so.

> * If not what is a good, beef based, RMB?

I suspect you are thinking in terms of meat and RMBs. Don't think
like that. Instad think of meat, bones, and organs. Naturally a beef
based RMB would be anything from a cow. Dogs eat cow meat very well
after an introductory period. Beef is on the rich side and tends to
cause digestive upset if fed early in the diet. I never feed beef
bones to my Great Danes. Some people feed beef ribs. I choose not to.

> * What and how much would you feed this 99lbs active dog?

Check out my web page listed below my signature.

> Looking for help on how to give this family member a very long active
> life!

You are headed in the right direction. Sounds like he gets a good
amount of exercise and now he's headed towards a very good diet.
There is not much more you can do.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Looking to switch, but worried about Chicken protein sensitivity
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:55 am ((PST))

> Now I'm afraid to switch him onto a raw feeding based on chicken
> carcasses and are looking for help/support.

Well, a good raw diet will be much more varied and meaty than just
chicken carcasses, but because it is so cheap chicken is a really
helpful protein for newbies.

> * Do you think Newton is sensitive to chicken?

It's possible but pretty unlikely. I'd say try it out and see what
happens.

> * Is sensitivity to chicken protein common?

A true allergy to a raw protein is pretty rare in a dog, after all
they were designed to eat the stuff.

> * Any chance raw chicken protein can be handled better then cooked?

Absolutely. Cooking changes the protein structure of the meat so a
dog who has an allergic reaction to cooked chicken often has no
problem with raw chicken.

> * If not what is a good, beef based, RMB?

I agree with Bill, don't think in terms of RMB's since it gets kind
of confusing. Think in terms of animal parts. Beef bones aren't
often edible for dogs, but mine love to tackle a slab of beef ribs or
work on a super meaty neck. Bone isn't a big component of the diet
so if your dog doesn't consume beef bones it's fine.

> * What and how much would you feed this 99lbs active dog?

The general starting point is between 2-3% of the ideal adult
weight. So you are looking at around 2lbs a day to start with. If
you notice him getting too chunky or ribby adjust the amount of food
as needed.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Looking to switch, but worried about Chicken protein sensitivity
Posted by: "monsterjam2@aol.com" monsterjam2@aol.com monsterjam2
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:42 am ((PST))

Hi Robert!
I am relatively new to this group, too, but we recently got a rescue
English Setter who was also "sensitive to chicken" or it could have been the
stuff in the bag, haven't decided which, yet. We have been feeding raw for
about 8 weeks (although, we've had to sear some stuff). Instead of starting
with chicken or turkey, we started with lamb ribs for a week, then pork ribs &
pork meat for a week. It was a bit pricey to start, but now Ziggy is eating
turkey without any problems. I will try chicken again at some point down the
road. We also had some really good luck with venison ribs if you can get
some!
Good luck!!
Beth

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


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Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: No idea how to start...
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:00 am ((PST))

The easiest way to start is to jump right in. Get a chicken, cut it
into quarters and hand a quarter to the dog. Generally you'll feed 2-
3% of the ideal *adult* weight every day. As you feed through the
chicken keep reading here and check out the archives. Let us know if
you have questions.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jacy Brooke" <jacyc19@...> wrote:

> I have a 7mth cockapoo about 10ibs i am clueless how to do this, how
> much to give a day and what to give? Can someone help me out.


Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: barfing up pieces of bone
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:04 am ((PST))

Your instincts are right, feed bigger food and the problem will
probably go away. When your boy swallows a thigh whole (or mostly
whole) he ends up with a big hunk of bone to digest in his stomach. If
that bone doesn't get done in an appropriate amount of time it starts
to irritate his stomach so out it comes. Hope that helps.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "angiecreed55" <tad151@...> wrote:

> in the middle of the night, he wakes up and vomits a bone bit. I'm
> tired of getting up and having to clean up his barf, and I'm sure the
> poor guy is tired of wretching. If we give him a whole chicken to
> munch on we'll have to take it away from him eventually, because he
> will keep eating until it's gone. But maybe that's what we should
> do. I don't think giving smaller bites is the answer.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: barfing up pieces of bone
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:08 am ((PST))

I've also found that bone that is too thick my dog will throw up. When
he eats pork neck bones he'll usually leave some bone that is too
hard/thick but sometimes bone will come back up later on. Weight
bearing bones like chicken legs/thighs are more dense.. maybe your dog
is having a bit of a rough time with that too? I'm sure the swallowing
all at once doesn't help either.

Heather

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: gassy pup
Posted by: "Tracy Meal" hiddenpoetinme1@yahoo.com hiddenpoetinme1
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:21 am ((PST))

Hi Amy,

Not sure what kind of pup you have or how long you are feeding raw but I can share my experience...

I can certainly relate to having to leave the room sometimes, I hate when the stench wakes me up (chuckle)....

I have two rotties. One was raw fed since weaning, she is 7 months old and the other is eleven and raw fed for the last 5 months. They both get gassy from time to time. I find it depends on what I feed and how much I feed. Bigger meals or feeding venison usually reaps emissions from my two. The older girl was really bad "all the time" on kibble, litterally farting every 20 minutes or so, so now I do not complain about the occasional emissions.

Some dogs take time to adjust to a new protein and some are just gassy no matter what you feed em....

Tracy


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Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. Re: ichy skin!
Posted by: "pfs.freedom" staylor@chjinc.com pfs.freedom
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:07 am ((PST))

Hi Sandee,
I have not tried a flea comb (because ive never heard of one lol) but
I will do that today to make sure. He is not on any supplements. He
gets raw chicken breast with ribs usually 3 times a day. I was giving
him a little bit of beef here and there but read somewhere else that
you should ease into the beef with puppies and new raw eaters to help
with loose stool (which he has also had). So I sould put the fish oil
on the chicken? how much do I put? He doesnt eat much as he is still
really little, maybe a palm full of meat at a time. I will get a flea
comb today... THANKS!

Shannon and Brody :)


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Shannon,
>
> There are lots of possibilities...could be dry skin, could be
additives in
> the chicken, not enough fat in the diet or fleas
> (you tried a flea comb on him to make sure that's not what it
is?). You
> could try a bit of fish or salmon oil...just make certain it isn't
enhanced
> with soy. You aren't using any other supplements, are you?
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "pfs.freedom" <staylor@...>
>
>
> Hello everyone. Ive just gotten a chihuahua puppy, ive named Brody,
> that is about 11 weeks old. Ive been feeding him raw chicken and a
> little bit of beef for the the last week since I got him. My
concern is
> that he keeps biting his back legs like they are ichy. I cant see
any
> fleas on him and he seems to only chew on the same spots. Im
wondering
> if it could just be dry skin and if anyone knows a natural remedy
>


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: ichy skin!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:34 am ((PST))

Shannon,

Generally puppies can eat variety fairly quickly...but if he's having loose
stools, you can continue to go slow. You can squirt a bit of fish oil onto
his food...I'm not sure how much for such a little pup (I'm used to Great
Danes <g>)!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "pfs.freedom" <staylor@chjinc.com>
I have not tried a flea comb (because ive never heard of one lol) but
I will do that today to make sure. He is not on any supplements. He
gets raw chicken breast with ribs usually 3 times a day. I was giving
him a little bit of beef here and there but read somewhere else that
you should ease into the beef with puppies and new raw eaters to help
with loose stool (which he has also had). So I sould put the fish oil
on the chicken? how much do I put? He doesnt eat much as he is still
really little, maybe a palm full of meat at a time. I will get a flea
comb today... THANKS!


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: ichy skin!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

>if he's having loose stools, you can continue to go slow.

I agree with Sandee. Since fish oil is 100% fat.If dog had loose stool... adding oil may not help him having firmer stool. If you change breast wityh rib bone to leg quarter or back part of birds which has more bone than ribs,that bone amount may help the dog to have non loose stool,maybe??

Recommended amount to fish oil I usually see is 1000mg fish oil per 20lb body weight.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: GI Normous Dogs
Posted by: "PK Shader" Forloveofdogs@gmail.com forloveofdogs
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:08 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Ania Tysarczyk" <AniaJRT@...> wrote:
Oh My Gosh!!! Ania is that YOU??

The Jacks do not catch enough "supplemental food" to cause the weight
discrepancy. As you know they can work their literal tails off for
half a day and come up empty if the "prey" does not wish to cooperate.
And believe me I would LOVE if they caught enough to be self sufficient.

Lika is the best at :meal retrieval but I doubt (since rabbits are
becoming very scarce from thew lack of tracks in the snow.) she is
taking more than one ever few weeks although in the past it was at
least one a week.

My dogs work hard almost every day either on the property of on the
White River Bike Trail which usually involves a three to five mile
fast paced hunt.

Nan (Pretty Pretty Princess Needs A Name) the 12 year old is loosing
her steam for this and frequently lags behind,. I can only think it
is because of her weight. She used to be one of my most tireless and
ferocious hunters.

As far as fat content is concerned all her meats can be counted as
high fat except for venison and mice (I don' really know about the
mice) maybe. Beef, lamb, chicken, turkey, etc. and she loves the
bones probably more than the meat.

Do you have any "low fat" suggestions that will not cause her skin to dry?


PK

PK Shader CSATSLL1, ABMA, ABS, AWA, CSATS Mentor
For Love of Dogs Canine/Human Relations Learning Center LLC

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/SATZ_Main/

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: GI Normous Dogs
Posted by: "PK Shader" Forloveofdogs@gmail.com forloveofdogs
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:08 am ((PST))

P.S. I almost wish it was worms but it is not. Just dog.


PK

PK Shader CSATSLL1, ABMA, ABS, AWA, CSATS Mentor
For Love of Dogs Canine/Human Relations Learning Center LLC

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/SATZ_Main/


Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: GI Normous Dogs
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:03 am ((PST))

> Do you have any "low fat" suggestions that will not cause her skin to
> dry?

Seems like rabbit, chicken, turkey and venison would be good low fat
options for her. You could still add in a bit of the other meats from
time to time so she still gets a big variety. If her skin starts to
dry out you could give her some fish oil or increase the amount if you
already give it.

Feeding her with big food/no food might help her too. I had the
hardest time keeping my GSP from porking out until I started feeding
him every other day. If she's the only one that skips meals you could
use the time to do some one on one games so she doesn't feel left out.
Hope that helps a bit.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (7)
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________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Anal gland problems
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:08 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...>
> I guess Amos could be sensitive to bone amounts--do you notice if
this
> happens with particularly boney meals, or after less boney meals?
Are
> his poops generally well-formed? Dry? Crumbly? Loose, or runny?
>
> The vet did express my dog's anal glands once and it just doesn't
seem
> natural and healthy to me to do that regularly. If I were you, I
would
> just try to take note of it and anything you can relate it to for
a
> little while, and experiment with the diet.
>
> I don't know if feeding once a day would help or not. How old is
your
> dog and what are your reasons for feeding twice a day?

This is actually the first time I've noticed it. He'd scoot once in
a great while but not like he has the past few days. His poops will
vary with the meal. Boney meals they are dry and crumbly, meat/bone
or organ meals are pretty well formed but can be a slight bit wet
that will get on his butt a little. He did have some that I didn't
clean off and maybe his scooting was from that but I felt where his
anal glands should be and to me they felt fuller than they probably
should be. Amos is estimated at about 3.5 years old- he was a stray
so no one knows for sure but the vet guessed his age at 2 when I
found him (March '06). I feed him twice a day because I find if he's
fed only once, he gets hungry again by late afternoon and will
resort to eating grass and animal poop outside and he will
consistantly raid the litterpans (he'll knock baby gates down to get
to them when he's that hungry).If feeding him once will be better
for him though and help keep the glands empty I'll have to be extra
watchful of him inside and outside. Is a dog's hunger more
psychological than physical?

Heather


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Anal gland problems
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:49 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Heather" <newbeginnings06@...> wrote:
Is a dog's hunger more
> psychological than physical?

Hi Heather,
I don't know the exact answer to that, but what i can tell you is
that, imo, it is as necessary to meet a dog's psychological needs as
it is to meet his physical needs. I would always, with the exception
of health issues that require smaller more frequent meals, recommend
feeding a dog only once a day. Its not that twice is bad or harmful
or whatever, i have just found that my dogs, so maybe its only my
experience, do better on feeding once a day or even less frequently.
I know that my dogs are not going to raid the stalls looking for that
special horse turd if they are coming off a big meal. I would guess
that your dog was just cleaning himself off after loose stools. My
dog, Sid, did the scoots once upon a time- pre raw days-when he had
tape worms? coming out. In any case, i would recommend cutting down to
one meal a day and guarding what you don't want him to eat. After a
few weeks on once a day feeding, you might want to consider feeding
bigger meals and skipping an appropriate number of days after that big
meal. You could search the archives for gorge/fast or big meals to
help you decide. KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. feeding?
Posted by: "joan" joanlante@yahoo.ca joanlante
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:08 am ((PST))

is it ok to feed RAW once daily ???? when they ate kibble they use to
eat twice a day as I knew it went out as fast as it went in and I
figure RAW must need time to digest...I'm not too to found of playing
with raw meat so feeding once daily is what I've been doing..is this ok?

joan

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: feeding?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:39 am ((PST))

"joan" <joanlante@...> wrote:>
> is it ok to feed RAW once daily ????
*****
Yes, it's fine and it gives you the opportunity to feed bigger, more
complicated and rewarding meals.

What prevents you from feeding once a day (or less) should not be your
preconceived notions or expectations but rather the health and ability
of the dog. Most dogs do very well on one meal a day. I recommend
multiple meals for younger pups and older seniors and of course for any
dog with issues that warrant smaller more frequent meals.


I
> figure RAW must need time to digest
*****
Raw meat and bones need less time to digest. Cooking decreases
digestibility and grain is not processed well at all. A species
appropriate diet is highly digestible and generates less stool.


...I'm not too to found of playing
> with raw meat so feeding once daily is what I've been doing..is this
ok?
*****
I suspect you'll get over the discomfort as you see your dogs thrive on
the fruits of your labors. But even if not, once a day is fine.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: Update on Ginger (diarrhea)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:18 am ((PST))

"kkellogg22004" <kkellogg22004@...> wrote:
>> There is hope for change with open-minded vets like this one!
*****
Yeah, but only if they break off their love affair with steroids.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Question about bones
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:06 am ((PST))

Hi,
I started my little pomeranian (13 pounds) on the prey model diet about 3 months ago. At that time I had several questions (he had a history of pancreatitis), and this group was so very, very helpful :-) Mica (my pom) has been doing very well now (that his mom has caught on to not feeding him too much liver, too much food at a time, enough bone to balance out the meat, etc.) I have a question now about bones other than chicken that I can give him. When I first adopted Mica he had terrible teeth, and eventually had to have 6 extracted. Since eating raw, (as so many on this list have said would happen) his teeth are much whiter, his breath has changed from the smell of death to almost non-existent. My question is, will chewing on beef rib bones be good for his teeth? I don't want to be giving him a bone that can break his teeth. He loves beef. I haven't given him pork yet, but was wondering if there are any pork bones that would be safe for him to chew on. I
like the idea of giving him a big chunk of meat with bone so he can work on it.
Patty, owned by Mica--who is so grateful for this list :-))


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Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Question about bones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:40 am ((PST))

Hi Patty,

So glad to hear he is doing well! :)) There really aren't going to be any
beef bones that will be good for his teeth. However, if you give him a slab
of ribs, the cleaning flossing action of ripping and tearing the meat from
those bones would be great fun and exercise. Just remove the bones once
that is accomplished.

He should be able to consume some pork bones...ribs, possibly part of the
shoulder. I know there are several small dog feeders on the list that feed
large chunks. You might be able to find some info in the archives if you do
a search on pugs or chi's.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Patty Linden" <pattykat3@yahoo.com>
> I started my little pomeranian (13 pounds) on the prey model diet
about 3 months ago. At that time I had several questions (he had a history
of pancreatitis), and this group was so very, very helpful :-) Mica (my
pom) has been doing very well now (that his mom has caught on to not feeding
him too much liver, too much food at a time, enough bone to balance out the
meat, etc.) I have a question now about bones other than chicken that I can
give him. When I first adopted Mica he had terrible teeth, and eventually
had to have 6 extracted. Since eating raw, (as so many on this list have
said would happen) his teeth are much whiter, his breath has changed from
the smell of death to almost non-existent. My question is, will chewing on
beef rib bones be good for his teeth? I don't want to be giving him a bone
that can break his teeth. He loves beef. I haven't given him pork yet, but
was wondering if there are any pork bones that would be safe for him to chew
on. I
> like the idea of giving him a big chunk of meat with bone so he can work
on it.

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: Question about bones
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:44 am ((PST))

> My question is, will chewing on beef rib bones be good for his teeth?

Hi,Patty. It depends on dogs. Some people take bone away after dog eats all meat around bones but mine;Corgi 2 year old,can eat Beef Rib bone and consume all without any problems. So,I let her. If i give her about some minutes,she can make crack to the rib bone and start eating bone till gone. Now and then,she leaves sliver of bone bits for me to pick but not much.

I definitely do not give weight bearing bone;the leg part bone though;knuckle bone,feumer bone,and marrow bones.Getting bone is cheap but paying for teeth fixing is very costy.

I give Buffalo rib bone(of course with added meat to that) to palette and she eats fine.So,I let her.

If you wonder hardness of bone...

Buffalo rib and Beef rib are,I think about same hardness.THen,pork is quite soft and eats like sandwich.Goat rib bone is soft too;maybe softer than pork rib bone. Elk rib bones are in between beef and pork. Not too hard but not too soft either.Oh,Lamb ribs are as soft as goat ribs too.

Only bone mine cannot get dent is oxtail bone.THay one,I take bone away since I wait for palette work on bone but she seems make no progress.

As for Neck bone if you wonder,beef is hardest among pork and lamb and beef and goat that I feed but it is edible too.Not as hard as weight bearing bone.Mine eats all.Only occasionary leave some for me to pick up though. Pork neck,lamb neck is softer side.Goat neck is softest Neck bone that I feed. I think.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Re: First time shopping for raw - -wishme luck
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:06 am ((PST))

I want to appologise first for my "steal it" comment. It was rude
and uncalled for. I'm under stress right now (my girls help me feel
better) and had gotten some not so nice emails privately from another
group. I should noth ave taken it out on this group.

> I am not sure what stores you have available in your area, but
perhaps
> this could be the case no matter where:
> I was staring at various cuts of this and that in the meat
department
> at our local Albertson's, and the butcher came out and asked what I
> was looking for. I told her I needed raw meat for my dogs, and she
> was DELIGHTED to clear out about 10# of her ground turkey for about
> 50cents/pound, rather than the usual $3 per pound, because it was
> going to be past its "sell by" date the next day.

I can check at Country Mart when I go Monday. They are having a big
meat sale that day. Ii will also be lucky and have $$ that day!

> If you are bold enough to let your butcher or meat department person
> know you can help him/her out by clearing out that stuff for them at
> LOW prices (maybe I should have asked for it for free?) maybe you
> could get a steady supply of at least some goodies at hand that
way.

I will talk to the meat person when I am there. You are right, you
never know what might happen if you ask.

> Who would have thought shopping for dog/cat food could turn into
such
> a 'treasure hunt?'

I know! I found a lone package of Wingettes yesterday and got them
for $1.73. There are I think 9 of them in the package. Maybe more,
its got logo junk all over most of it's packaging.

Kathy in MO
Angel & Holly - dogs Oreo & Turquoise - cats

Messages in this topic (13)
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12a. Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:42 am ((PST))

Is this something to worry about when feeding deer meat?

Thanks,
Tracy

Messages in this topic (3)
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12b. Re: Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:54 am ((PST))

Tracy,

Not for dogs.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@catt.com>


Is this something to worry about when feeding deer meat?


Messages in this topic (3)
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12c. Re: Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)
Posted by: "Joanne Thompson" tho0123@earthlink.net black_diamond_kennels
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

Tracy,

I live in Colorado and feed deer meat from CWD (and non CWD) areas. I
just don't feed the spines and brains, just to play it safe. CWD is not
a disease that canines are confirmed to contract.

Joanne Thompson
Black Diamond Kennels
Working Giant Schnauzers
Bellvue, CO 80512


trayc2244 wrote:
>
> Is this something to worry about when feeding deer meat?
>
> Thanks,
> Tracy
>
> __._,_.__


Messages in this topic (3)
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