Feed Pets Raw Food: Dec 6, 2007

Thursday, December 6, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12352

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: New to Raw
From: dijac9999

2a. Re: Starting a cat on raw
From: sltahoek9s
2b. Re: Starting a cat on raw
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

3a. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: Denise Strother
3b. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: Denise Strother
3c. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: mozookpr
3d. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: recyclerat@aol.com
3e. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: Giselle

4a. Re: Anyone feeding DDB a RAW Diet?
From: Penny

5a. Re: Dog with persistent diarrhea
From: marlena_adema
5b. Re: Dog with persistent diarrhea
From: Giselle

6a. Re: tips for cats (was new to rawfeeding)
From: mozookpr

7a. Refusal of Emu Liver & Vitamin A Content
From: Susan Fortune
7b. Re: Refusal of Emu Liver & Vitamin A Content
From: Sandee Lee

8a. turkey liver vitamin A
From: outcats4@aol.com
8b. Re: turkey liver vitamin A
From: Casey Post
8c. Re: turkey liver vitamin A
From: carnesbill

9a. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
From: Susan Fortune
9b. afraid to feed turkey necks
From: Cheryl Younesi

10a. Re: List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
From: T Smith

11a. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

12.1. Re: Turkey necks
From: Sai Simonson

13a. Re: Fish and Game
From: vanevery0

14. Bottom round
From: Sai Simonson

15.1. Salmon oil
From: Sai Simonson

Messages
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1.1. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "dijac9999" jacobs_diane@hotmail.com dijac9999
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:03 pm ((PST))

Thank you very much to everyone that gave me suggestions!! And I
apologize for the late reply.
Yes, she is fed one quarter, twice a day. Skin & fat removed, approx
1LB per meal. I really dont know if anything is added to the chicken I
purchase. The label just says chicken, no other ingredients. I will
triple check when I get home. The reason I tried the mackerel is
because I used to add it to her kibble, so my thought process was that
her body already knew how to digest.
I'll try doing the chicken backs for her morning meal for a few weeks
and see if that helps.
And thank you for letting me know i do have the correct process for
adding new proteins, and yes, I will wait until she is firm to try.
Thank you again!
Martini's mom.

Messages in this topic (61)
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2a. Re: Starting a cat on raw
Posted by: "sltahoek9s" crazy4k9@aol.com sltahoek9s
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:03 pm ((PST))

how would you start a 13 year old, healthy cat? We forget he is 13
because of how good he looks, but he tends to be a wolf-hound when it
comes to kibble and I would like to start him on raw and make him chew
a little bit.
>
My best advice to you would be to join the yahoo group rawcat and
also to read over the website www.rawfedcats.org . I'm just getting
my own three cats started on raw. So far the youngest is hooked, the
middle one is interested, but unsure and my eldest (8 years old and
huge kibble junkie) will have nothing to do with the smallest iota of
anything resembling raw.

If your guy is a kibble junkie and has been for 13 years, it may be a
little tricky getting him going. The website is really informative
for beginners. Good luck and hope to see you over at rawcat.

Tammy C

Messages in this topic (12)
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2b. Re: Starting a cat on raw
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/6/2007 5:03:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Jessica
MacMillan writes:

Now, my next question is - how would you start a 13 year old, healthy cat?
We forget he is 13 because of how good he looks, but he tends to be a
wolf-hound when it comes to kibble and I would like to start him on raw and make him
chew a little bit.

****
Hi, Jess,

Some cats greet raw like it was the best thing ever (mine did), but from
what I hear, most do not. Mine were used to canned food, and I mixed minced raw
with that, gradually increasing the amount and size of the raw and decreasing
the canned. Some kibble hounds have to be transitioned to canned first, but
this can be as much of a project as transitioning to raw, for some cats--so
I'd start with raw. :) It's just that it's harder to mix bits of raw with
kibble and have it seem somewhat like what they are used to eating.

Another factor that may have come into play: my cats were used to eating
morning and night, no kibble left out. You can't starve a cat into eating raw,
like you can a dog, because he is at risk of a serious liver ailment if you
do that. But you can stop leaving kibble out for them so that when it comes
time to eat, they are HUNGRY cats.

Here's a website with lots of good information:

_http://www.rawfedcats.org/practicleguide.htm_

(http://www.rawfedcats.org/practicleguide.htm)

Lynda

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Messages in this topic (12)
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3a. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:03 pm ((PST))

Hi Kelly,
It takes some dogs longer to get the hang of it than others. But,
don't worry, he will. I foster dogs and do quite a few Chi's and I
own a 9yr old female Chi who weighs 4.5 lbs. I recently fostered a
year old male who weighed 2.2 lbs when I picked him up. He also had
an overbite so bad you could see all of his front teeth from canine
to canine with his mouth shut. Your dog will get stronger jaw
muscles and learn to hold the food still with his feet, if you let
him. The chewing you're talking about will clean his back teeth. You
can take a pair of kitchen shears and make cuts in the skin to help
him. A leg is just fine. You will see way less poop in rawfed dogs
and they usually don't drink as much water either, because of the
moisture in the meat. There is less poop because raw is more
digestible than kibble. Don't give him the pumpkin, there is nothing
to be concerned about from what you're writing. Hang in there, he'll
get the hang of it and so will you. So far it looks like you're
doing this correctly. Just put the can of pumkin down and back away
from it.:) My Sweetie is very healthy and nobody can believe she is
9. She eats everything my Pitbull does, just smaller. Denise

Today will be day three since I have started my male 1 year old 3.3
> pound Chihuahua on raw. Day 1 I offered him a whole chicken
wing.
> He chewed up the bone and all of the third section and then I
ended
> up pulling the meat off the rest and he ate the bone in the second
> section. (I know, from reading older posts I guess this
> is "babying".) Last night I offered a chicken quarter. He was
> gnawing with his back teeth on the skin of it but I dont' think he
> ever got much off of it (skin). I flipped it over so he could see
> the meaty parts but it's like he's trying to be all dainty about
it.
> Do I just let him poke around for a while then pick it up and try
> again the next day and just continue till he figures out he needs
to
> pin the dang thing down and rip it up? I don't have time in the
> morning to supervise a 30-60 min picky eating session so he'd be
> waiting a full 24 hours.
>
> Also, he's only pooped 1/4 of a TEASPOON since the chicken wing
> Tuesday night. I bought some pure pumpkin last night (no, not pie
> filling) to offer him tonight if he still hasn't pooped - he
hasn't
> even tried to poop since Wednesday morning.
>
> I'm offering the chicken quarter from last night that he never
really
> got much of again tonight. I ended up pulling the leg off of it
(the
> leg is bigger than his head).
>
> I'm open to suggestions/comments - anything :) My main concerns
are
> blockage/perf from the bones - I've read many of the old posts and
> the internet links on this as well. How long till he gets the
hang
> of this?
>
> Kelly Petska
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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3b. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:05 pm ((PST))

Sorry mods, I typed my answer and got interrupted. When I came back I
thought I had trimmed the OP's post. Mea Culpa. Denise

Messages in this topic (7)
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3c. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kelly" <kpetska@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Today will be day three since I have started my male 1 year old 3.3
> pound Chihuahua on raw. Day 1 I offered him a whole chicken wing.
> He chewed up the bone and all of the third section and then I ended
> up pulling the meat off the rest and he ate the bone in the second
> section. (I know, from reading older posts I guess this
> is "babying".) Last night I offered a chicken quarter.
>
>
I am new to raw, and my Pomeranian does the same thing....picks
rather daintily. He will gnaw on a wing or maybe some rib bones, but
the bones in a leg quarter seem to put him off. He is older than
your dog -- five -- and more set in his ways, I suspect, but he is
also larger, at 10.5 lbs.

I know that the rule of thumb is that bigger food is better, but a
whole leg quarter might be a wee bit much for a dog as tiny as yours
who is brand new to raw feeding. Why not consider buying a game hen
or two and quartering them? That way, you get a decent ratio of meat
to bone, in a size that might be a bit easier for your little guy to
handle, at least at first. I am considering doing this for Foxy, and
for my cats, too. My hope is that if I get them used to something
closer to whole prey in a small package, they will be more willing to
take on larger items later. I know game hens would be pricey for a
big dog, not to mention too small, but they seem perfect for a tiny
dog who only needs a few ounces of food a day.

Good news that he munched on a chicken wing, BTW...the instincts are
there, as you knew they would be! Bigger bones might just be a bit
much for him right now.

Wendy

Messages in this topic (7)
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3d. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "recyclerat@aol.com" recyclerat@aol.com syrusmommy
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 4:23 pm ((PST))

Hi Kelly,

i have no advise to offer - just wanted to let you know that i've been
going thru something similar with my chi (also a teeny one like yours) -- we've
been feeding raw for a few months, and he flat out refuses to eat raw chicken
- i have 3 small children, and he scavenges what they nibble on - so he
never has reached "primal hungry" -- so he just turns his nose up and refuses
it...
i've been dealing with mega issues with my rottie - so i put the lil guy
on the back burner for a while, and have just been feeding ground turkey with
egg shell sprinkled in.

your thread caught my eye - i am watching this topic VERY closely! i'm
ready to focus my attention to him, and get him going properly now that my rot
seems to be on the mend.

.heather.

I'm open to suggestions/I'm open to suggestions/<WBR>comments - anyt
blockage/perf from the bones - I've read many of the old posts and
the internet links on this as well. How long till he gets the hang
of this?

Kelly Petska

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Messages in this topic (7)
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3e. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 4:25 pm ((PST))

Hi, Kelly and Wendy!
The thing to remember is that the
recommendation is 80% meatymeat, 10% organ and 10% bone - if you are feeding
a 4 lb dog 5% of his estimated ideal adult body weight, that would be about
3.2 ounces a day - the 10% EDIBLE bone a dog this size would need would
amount to only approx. .32 oz a day! That would be just about what the
cartilage would be on a leg or breast, and thats very easy for a teensy dog
to chew!

You don't need to measure and weigh it all out. Some tiny, underweight,
growing or very active dogs need as much as 6% or more of their EIABW per
day. I'd give him a chicken breast quarter or half a Game Hen and let him
eat as much as he wants 2-3 times a day. Just pop the 'leftovers' back in
the fridge and offer them at the next meals until its gone.

Little dogs need the time to build up their endurance and jaw strength to be
able to really chow down without help. You might need to slash through the
skin and cut the meat into ribbons on the bone, or even open the ends up and
break off the cartilage so that he can get at it. Its not 'babying' if you
are helping him learn how to eat, and lessen the help as he gets stronger
and more capable to do it himself.

Very tiny dogs may need their food warmed for them, to prevent their core
body temp lowering too much or too fast and causing hypothermia - 'the
shivers'. This can be dangerous for them, so you can allow the meat to warm
to room temp on the counter, or just submerge it in a plastic bag in very
warm water.

Raw is so much more bioavailable that your dogs poops will be smaller and
less frequent. Your dog gets to use more of what he eats, so there is less
waste to poop out. If his poops are dry, whitish or crumbly, you're feeding
too much bone - meatymeat or organ meals will produce soft or even runny
stools, and thats normal.

Pumpkin isn't necessary, if he's gotten too much bone and is a bit
constipated, feed just meat the next meal, or add a drop of Fish Body or
Salmon oil to his next meal. You can feed the heart and gizzards that come
with the whole chickens, its good meat, but chop up the liver and freeze to
feed later, once hes gotten the hang of raw.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>, "Kelly"
> <kpetska@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > Today will be day three since I have started my male 1 year old 3.3
> > pound Chihuahua on raw. Day 1 I offered him a whole chicken wing.
> > He chewed up the bone and all of the third section and then I ended
> > up pulling the meat off the rest and he ate the bone in the second
> > section. (I know, from reading older posts I guess this
> > is "babying".) Last night I offered a chicken quarter.
> >
> >
> I am new to raw, and my Pomeranian does the same thing....picks
> rather daintily. He will gnaw on a wing or maybe some rib bones, but
> the bones in a leg quarter seem to put him off. He is older than
> your dog -- five -- and more set in his ways, I suspect, but he is
> also larger, at 10.5 lbs.
>
> <snip>.
>
> Good news that he munched on a chicken wing, BTW...the instincts are
> there, as you knew they would be! Bigger bones might just be a bit
> much for him right now.
>
> Wendy
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Re: Anyone feeding DDB a RAW Diet?
Posted by: "Penny" redpenn2003@yahoo.com redpenn2003
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:21 pm ((PST))

Hello Erika.

I own Dogue de bordeaux and have been feeding the Raw Meaty Bones Diet. If I can help in any way, please feel free to contact me.

This list is a wonderful tool and I still learn new things about this wonderful and natural diet. People on this list have no hidden agendas. Many spend hours of their time to help educate others. I am thankful that I came across it years ago.

Penny Fusner
RED KNIGHTS BORDEAUX
Home of the Working Dogue

www.geocities.com/redknightsddb

Penny Fusner
RED KNIGHTS BORDEAUX - "The Working Dogue"
Home of UWP, Multi CH Red Dog Ridge Beaute' Rouge TT, CGC, WDI (2)
J&T North of the Mason Dixon CGC

http://www.geocities.com/redknightsddb

Pedigree indicates what the animal "should be"
Conformation indicates what the animal "appears to be"
But Performance indicates what the animal "actually is!"

~Author Unknown~

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

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Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. Re: Dog with persistent diarrhea
Posted by: "marlena_adema" marlena_adema@yahoo.ca marlena_adema
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:21 pm ((PST))

Incase anyone searches the archives for this issue, I am updating it
with my results in the hopes it will help out someone else.

I fasted my dog for about 12-15 hours. During this time I did give
her low sodium broth. Then I began with chicken cleaned of fat and
skin. And I omitted the fish oil capsules. She didn't poop that day,
but the next it was much better. Still loose, but firming up, and we
got to sleep through the night! By the third day she was pretty much
back to normal.

Indeed, if she was still having trouble after another day or two, we
would've gone to the vet. But other than the diarrhea, she was in
fine spirits - so it seemed to me safe to give a bit of time to see if
she'd improve.

Thanks everyone who took the time to offer some advice.
Marlena

Messages in this topic (6)
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5b. Re: Dog with persistent diarrhea
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 4:31 pm ((PST))

Hi, Marlena!
Thanks for the update, its great to find out that a problem
has worked out!

Aren't you glad now that you didn't panic?

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 6, 2007 5:09 PM, marlena_adema <marlena_adema@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> In case anyone searches the archives for this issue, I am updating it
> with my results in the hopes it will help out someone else.
>
> I fasted my dog for about 12-15 hours. During this time I did give
> her low sodium broth. Then I began with chicken cleaned of fat and
> skin. And I omitted the fish oil capsules. She didn't poop that day,
> but the next it was much better. Still loose, but firming up, and we
> got to sleep through the night! By the third day she was pretty much
> back to normal.
>
> Indeed, if she was still having trouble after another day or two, we
> would've gone to the vet. But other than the diarrhea, she was in
> fine spirits - so it seemed to me safe to give a bit of time to see if
> she'd improve.
>
> Thanks everyone who took the time to offer some advice.
> Marlena
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Re: tips for cats (was new to rawfeeding)
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:21 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tammy" <matreg@...> wrote:
>
> --- Thank you very much for the info, I will use your tips!
> and as I am on digest and am just now going through the posts,
> thanks to anyone else, in advance, who was kind enough to answer.
>
> Gina is following me around as if she's lovesick, lol.....and the
> cats, especially the younger one, are extremely interested in
little
> nibbles from Gina's meals....
>
I am in the process of switching my cats, too, and am introducing
them to raw just that way: with little scraps from my dogs' meals.
It is amazing what cats will try when they think they are getting
away with something.... ;)

Casey is right about keeping the catfood on hand, though. Cats
cannot be "tough-loved" into a new diet the way dogs can, as you have
learned. Ironically, if you have a fat cat, you must be even more
careful that she does not stop eating. If you are free-feeding
kibble, your first step is to stop that. Continue to offer raw and
see how they respond, but some cats even need a step between kibble
and real food. In that case, you would try offering canned mixed
with bits of raw for limited times each day. But with a cat,
continue to make sure they get *something* they will eat, each and
every day. I have been told it can take months to completely and
safely transition a cat to raw food. It depends on the cat, of
course. My two kittens could probably give up kibble today and be
fine, and oddly enough, right behind them is my soon-to-be 19-year-
old. Two of the others (one of whom is only 2) are much more
reluctant, and one will do no more than wander into the kitchen and
sniff the plates.

Not as easy as switching a dog, but I am in this for the long haul.
Keep me posted, it will be interesting to see how another new
rawfeeder is doing with cats.

Wendy and the kids

Messages in this topic (20)
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7a. Refusal of Emu Liver & Vitamin A Content
Posted by: "Susan Fortune" desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net cactususan
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:21 pm ((PST))

My dogs loved the emu liver at the first offering, but progressively turned up their noses as I tried to 'finish the package.'

My wise, raw-feeding son said,
"They know what they need. Just go with them."

Now I see from previous posts that most livers have LOADS of vitamin A--way more than the dogs need. Smart pups!

Susan Fortune
Southern California

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Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Refusal of Emu Liver & Vitamin A Content
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 3:04 pm ((PST))

Liver has the *perfect* amount of Vitamin A when fed as part of a prey model
diet....approximately 5% of the overall diet should be liver. Doesn't have
to be balanced out every day, week or even month, but unless you are feeding
an abundance of liver, it's not more than they need! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Susan Fortune" <desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net>
>
> Now I see from previous posts that most livers have LOADS of vitamin
A--way more than the dogs need. Smart pups!

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. turkey liver vitamin A
Posted by: "outcats4@aol.com" outcats4@aol.com barb5ducks
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:26 pm ((PST))

Wow, that was an eye opener as to how much vitamin A is in turkey liver. I
have a bunch of it, and have been giving it to my cat and dog - but Ive also
been cooking it lightly. I wonder if I could have caused any damage? They
have been eating about 2 turkey livers a week for the last month. thanks for
the heads up, do you think I should be concerned ??

barb

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Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: turkey liver vitamin A
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 4:36 pm ((PST))

> They
> have been eating about 2 turkey livers a week for the last month.
> thanks for
> the heads up, do you think I should be concerned ??

Barb,

Nope!

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: turkey liver vitamin A
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 5:32 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, outcats4@... wrote:
>
> I wonder if I could have caused any damage? They
> have been eating about 2 turkey livers a week for the
> last month. thanks for
> the heads up, do you think I should be concerned ??

A dog has to eat A LOT, I mean A LOT of liver to OD on Vitamin A. You
are fine and so are your dogs.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
Posted by: "Susan Fortune" desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net cactususan
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:43 pm ((PST))

Fear not. That's the first thing I fed my 13 year-old, 9# min-pin. I took it away after I thought he'd had his 1.5 ounce meal, and he got the rest for the next meal.

After two months on raw, his foul breath is sweet, and his formerly gray-brown-yellow teeth are appropriately white.

If you thought that your dog would try to gulp it, just hold one end while he chews.

I started raw because I didn't think that the min-pin could tolerate the anesthesia necessary to have his teeth cleaned...& I couldn't tolerate the $400 price! When he's had the dental cleaning previously, the tartar (from ki**le) begins to build up within a week.

For that $400, I bought a used freezer, filled it FULL of RAW stuff for my 4 dogs, and now they think I am a GODDESS! And I have $50 left!

Susan
Southern California

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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9b. afraid to feed turkey necks
Posted by: "Cheryl Younesi" CYounesi@mac.com cyounesi
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 4:54 pm ((PST))

Barb,
Don't know how big your dog is, but mine, 3 lbs. and 6 lbs. love their
duck necks. I think duck necks would be about the same size as turkey
necks, not sure. But they don't have any problems eating them. They,
also, are not gulpers.
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (13)
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10a. Re: List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

Let me help you understand why I use a filler on only one of my dogs.

My obese girl is disabled so exercise is out of the question. I do exercise
her legs a bit & she gets around but there's no way to get her to use
calories. She was born without proper joint formations. She's like a gumby
dog BUT she does get around & if she wanted to run, she'd hop like a bunny &
FAST but now she is 11 years old. She just had 11 teeth removed before we
went to raw & she had already lost many teeth before that. Once we get this
weight off with her current plan (fillers of green beans we discussed on the
list awhile ago & this was a general advice thing for her case only) then
she can get to a regular diet again. But for now I need to get the fat off
her fast because she is having a hard time to get around. Once the small
dog section of the park is done I am hoping I can force her to run a bit
more after she gets pain meds in her system.
It's a tough scenario, she's a good girl. I've had her since the day she
was born 10 days prematurely & she was an only child, should have died
according to all the vet tests....But here she is at 11!
If you have any other suggestions, feel free to let me know :-) I
appreciate all the advice I can get!

My other dogs eat ONLY Meat & Bones :-) the 80, 10, 10 theory. I've just
been reading more about the grains & thought I'd ask but I see now I AM
doing this right.
thank you.
Trina

On Dec 6, 2007 1:28 PM, Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think what you are seeing is newbies who don't trust the prey model
> just yet and feel like there is a need to add "something" other than
> just meat bones and organs. We say time and time again that those
> things aren't needed nor are they species appropriate. Some people
> just can't believe it is that simple. I have tried recently to be a
> little more gentle with my wording on the issue because I'm confident
> that eventually they'll figure out that all the grinding and such
> doesn't do a spot of good.
>
> Andrea
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/6/2007 5:03:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Laura
Bonavia writes:

Have been successful so far. If someone can comment
on whether they learn to enjoy it better after awhile.
I have a slow dainty eater. Started with the ground
but had learned to give whole parts. He gives me a
look now, is annoyed with the work he has to do and
then runs outside to wipe his face on the grass when
he is done. He likes the taste better just not the work.

****
Hi, Laura,

I can only speak from the perspective of my cats, but I don't think they'd
trade back to what they ate before. :)

One of them, after 8 months, still struggles with large chunks and bony
pieces. When she was starting out, I would have to hold the meat for her until
she could get her teeth placed just right on it, since munching with the front
of her mouth no longer worked. Sometimes she will pick up a piece and walk
around wailing, complaining about how hard it is to eat this. But if I make a
move toward her, she scoots back to her tablecloth and starts to work on it in
earnest. Yesterday morning she was fighting with a good sized piece of turkey
neck, and after she had settled into it, she suddenly gave out a loud growl
(no other cat in the room), which I took to be warning any and all that this
good thing was HERS.

Lynda

**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12.1. Re: Turkey necks
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 4:29 pm ((PST))

Barb,
I will add my 2 cents.
The days I can not get turkey necks (Winco runs out) there is sadness.
I must give steaks, turkey ? arms, etc. to compensate.

Sai

outcats4@aol.com wrote: Hi, I did a search on the list about turkey
necks, but couldnt find much
about not giving them. Im concerned about feeding them to my dog. Are they
safe ? He isnt a gulper, but there just seems to be so many bones in
them. Has
anyone had any problems with turkey necks?
Thanks for your help,
Barb

Messages in this topic (68)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: Fish and Game
Posted by: "vanevery0" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 4:29 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "gbongi1" <gbongi1@...> wrote:
>
> Also about fish.
> I catch White and yellow perch, tog, blues, and striper.
> Can I feed my dog these items whole?

Know the pollution levels of the rivers / lakes you fish in.
Generally you can look these up at governmental fishing websites. If
you're seeing warnings like, "don't eat fish more than twice a week
from this lake," well as far as I'm concerned, don't eat it at all.
That goes for you too, not just your dog. Unless you think industrial
heavy metals are good for you.

Sometimes the warnings aren't for all fish, but for the bottom
feeders. The heavy metals are mostly at the bottom. Unfortunately,
it is a food chain, so if there's a lot of poisoned fish then I
suppose there could be poisoned game too. But I'm not really up on that.

I'm told that frogs are going to be just as poisoned as the fish, if
you're after bullfrogs. Amphibians and all that.

Cheers,
Brandon Van Every

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14. Bottom round
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 4:54 pm ((PST))

Dog are becoming worshipful. When I open the door, they begin bowing
and wagging. What wonderful foods have you brought us???? I gave them
small slices of "steaks" after the morning eggs. WOW! Really?
When at the natural food store today I noticed that their bottom round
roasts were the same price as the stuff at Winco. Still spendy at
$2.99/lb but hey, free range and grass fed. So, there is more to slice
up in a few minutes. TG for the electric knife.

Sai

Messages in this topic (1)
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________________________________________________________________________

15.1. Salmon oil
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 4:55 pm ((PST))

Happy report! Grizzly slathered on the raw eggs for the Zois is a
winner. Will start removing the cheese next....Only 1/4 slice...won't
take long. Now the cat is more resistant. Gave a squirt into the mouth
and she was mad for some time. Put a little on her paw and that kept
her busy for an hour.
--
*~~ SaiCzarina*

Messages in this topic (49)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12351

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Help!
From: Carlye
1.2. Re: Help!
From: Giselle
1.3. Re: Help!
From: mmc2315
1.4. Re: Help!
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: another knackery drop off
From: bluegracepwd

3a. puppies/big dogs
From: donna
3b. Re: puppies/big dogs
From: Laura Atkinson
3c. Re: puppies/big dogs
From: Tina Berry
3d. Re: puppies/big dogs
From: Erika
3e. Re: puppies/big dogs
From: Sandee Lee

4a. Re: new to rawfeeding
From: Giselle
4b. Re: new to rawfeeding
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
From: Laura Atkinson
5b. Re: List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
From: Andrea
5c. Starting a cat on raw
From: Jessica MacMillan

6a. Re: Fish and Game
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Chicken skin question
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: Chicken skin question
From: Tina Berry

8a. New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: Laura Bonavia

9. Gorge Feeding: Bloat - Torsion Question
From: aliciamyan

10a. Just one question....
From: mozookpr

11a. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
From: mozookpr

12a. Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: Kelly
12b. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: Sandee Lee

13a. Re: Today's finding;Turkey liver and Vitamin A
From: Morledzep@aol.com

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1.1. Help!
Posted by: "Carlye" reidhaven@catahouligans.com milk_jockey
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:39 am ((PST))

I want to switch my dogs to raw, but I'm not sure how to do it. Is it
bad to do it cold turkey? Should it be a slow process?

One of my dogs is an 8 month old female Catahoula, and I'm worried
that I won't be able give her everything she needs to finish growing
properly. Should I be leaving her on kibble with supplements until
she's done growing (expecting approx. 50-55lbs)?
Another one of my dogs is a ten year old JRT, and I've read that it
isn't a good idea to switch older dogs. Should I just be leaving her
on her kibble?

Any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

Carlye

Messages in this topic (44)
________________________________________________________________________

1.2. Re: Help!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 12:39 pm ((PST))

Hi, Carle!
Oooh, you didn't read any of that misinformation here! ^_^

Welcome!

Cold Turkey is the way to go. There's absolutely NO benefit to be had by
feeding cr*p-in-a-bag any longer than you have to!

Pups, young dogs, dogs in the prime of their life, elderly pooches - they
all NEED to be fed a species appropriate raw whole prey model diet. ASAP!

Its what they evolved to thrive on, and what is the optimum diet for all
wolves - even the ones that live with us.

Doom Nuggets tm (Carrie), cooked meats, grains, veggies, just-in-case supps
are all INappropriate for dogs and puppies - meat, fat, skin, organs, edible
bone is all that they need to grow and maintain glowing health.

Here's some websites and links to start with;
How to start

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawlearning.com/supplementmyths.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/143301

message # 143301

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/143301

message # 143301

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/144075
message # 144075

TC and let us know how you progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 6, 2007 2:31 PM, Carlye <reidhaven@catahouligans.com> wrote:

> I want to switch my dogs to raw, but I'm not sure how to do it. Is it
> bad to do it cold turkey? Should it be a slow process?
>
> <snip>
>
> Any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Carlye
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (44)
________________________________________________________________________

1.3. Re: Help!
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:19 pm ((PST))

Hi Carlye,

We got our dog from the shelter in mid-October and made the switch to raw, cold turkey, in
November.

We started with chicken, and have been taking it slow. That is, we didn't introduce other
proteins too quickly and haven't even started organs yet.

Our dog looks so healthy and happy.

There are a lot of good posts in the archives.

Michelle

Messages in this topic (44)
________________________________________________________________________

1.4. Re: Help!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:43 pm ((PST))

Hi Carlye,

Everything required for perfect growth is found in a prey model raw
diet...lots of meat, a little bone and organs. What better time to have her
on a proper diet than during the critical growth period. There is no
benefit to kibble and supplements...in fact, could get you into growth
problems quite easily. Go cold turkey...get her off that junk as quickly
as possible! :)

It's never too late to start feeding appropriately. Raw meat is so
beneficial to all of the organs...don't put it off!
But I wouldn't call a JRT old at 10!! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Carlye" <reidhaven@catahouligans.com>

I want to switch my dogs to raw, but I'm not sure how to do it. Is it
bad to do it cold turkey? Should it be a slow process?

Messages in this topic (44)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: another knackery drop off
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:39 am ((PST))

Hi Mary,

Dressing is when the animal has its skin, head, hooves, tail, and guts
removed. In the past I've been able to get my hands on free undressed
sheep. ie: basically the whole kit and kaboodle, but the amount of
work to dress them is so great, if someone offered to do each beast
for $10, I'd give them $20. Well not really, but you get the idea!

I am now very handy with an axe.

cheers

Jane

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. puppies/big dogs
Posted by: "donna" heartathome@att.net jubileeberry
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:48 am ((PST))

Hello to all..i am new here and have found this whole subject fascinating.
I have always rescued and owned large breed dogs..danes,bernards and
mastiffs, dobermans.. but i am getting a 7 week old neo mastiff puppy
next week and want to start the raw diet..
This is a female and can get around 110-120 lbs.. i read to start
with chopped meat for under 8 weeks... cooked or not cooked?
Any advice for puppies and Very big dogs would be great :)

--
Namaste,
donna
)O(
Uppity Women Unite

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: puppies/big dogs
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:02 pm ((PST))

I've started a number of puppies on raw and here's what's worked well for me:

Because you need to feed multiple meals, give them the easy ones when
time is short (like getting ready for work in the am). This is when
I'm going to give a meat only or even ground meat meal. Meals with
edible bones happen in the PM, when I'm home and can supervise, but I
have been known to put something HUGE (like a lamb neck...hey, to an 8
week old Siberian Husky that is HUGE) in there when I'm gone and they
gnaw on it all day...maybe getting down to bone, maybe not...if
there's any left when I get home, it generally becomes someone else's
dinner. I do NOT recommend leaving bones out all day unless or until
you're pretty darn confident in the puppy's eating style...after all,
you're betting their life on it!

In the evening meal, the puppies get whatever the adults get as long
as they're handling the variet fine (ie loose stools, cut back either
on the variety of the meals or decrease the amounts and add another
meal/snack in to make up the difference). At 8 weeks old, you'd be
amazed (or appalled if it's your shoe) what those little puppy teeth
can do! So give them a meal that's a challenge. You'll enjoy the
peace and quiet.

Never cooked (unless it's treats from your plate). Chopped meat is OK
and convenient, consider it the equivalent of the bagged salad for
yourself. But hunks o' meat and meaty raw bones are going to give
your puppy a workout while eating (and we all know...a tired puppy is
a good puppy).

On Dec 6, 2007 11:34 AM, donna <heartathome@att.net> wrote:
but i am getting a 7 week old neo mastiff puppy
> next week and want to start the raw diet..
> This is a female and can get around 110-120 lbs.. i read to start
> with chopped meat for under 8 weeks... cooked or not cooked?
> Any advice for puppies and Very big dogs would be great :)
>
> --
> Namaste,
> donna
> )O(
> Uppity Women Unite
>
>
> All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: puppies/big dogs
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:19 pm ((PST))

"This is a female and can get around 110-120 lbs.. i read to start with
chopped meat for under 8 weeks... cooked or not cooked? Any advice for
puppies and Very big dogs would be great :)"

I weaned my gsd pups to raw at 4 weeks of age on ground beef heart; by 6
weeks they were eating chicken wings. All raw, don't cook. At 7 weeks I
would try her out on chicken legs, thighs or bone in breast and just see how
she does. You don't want to feed too small of pieces, wings aren't meaty
enough for a meal but something you can also try on her.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: puppies/big dogs
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:19 pm ((PST))

My mastiff pup eats the same stuff my big guys eat and chomps the bones like a little champ. Only thing that she can not eat is the neck bones, everything else is fair game, she steals from her mother all the time :)

Erika

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

3e. Re: puppies/big dogs
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:24 pm ((PST))

Hi Donna,

Well, I have big dogs, but don't *do* puppies! :)) Here are a few past
messages from those who do.....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135757
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135847
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/137170
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/145223

And a picture......:)
http://homepage.mac.com/rhbmgmt/PhotoAlbum14.html

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "donna" <heartathome@att.net>

> Hello to all..i am new here and have found this whole subject fascinating.
> I have always rescued and owned large breed dogs..danes,bernards and
> mastiffs, dobermans.. but i am getting a 7 week old neo mastiff puppy
> next week and want to start the raw diet..
> This is a female and can get around 110-120 lbs.. i read to start
> with chopped meat for under 8 weeks... cooked or not cooked?
> Any advice for puppies and Very big dogs would be great :)

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: new to rawfeeding
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 12:02 pm ((PST))

Hi, Sheila!
Welcome to the raw side!

You'll be more than pleased with the results for your Saint, I'm very sure!
And you'll be surprised and gratified with the improvement to your other
dog's health and appearance, too.

Chicken leg quarters are a little small for a GSD, let alone a Saint! Try
1/2 chickens for a meal. Chicken is a bit bony, so that may be the reason
for the straining. Feeding 1/2's instead of just quarters will offer more
meat with the bone. You can toss in the heart and gizzards with the leg
1/2s, that'll bump up the meat a bit. Also, raw is so much more
bioavailable, there is much less waste to poop out, so stools will be
smaller and less frequent. Just a change (a welcome one!) to get used to.

Here's a couple links and websites for you to peruse;
how to start raw feeding and The Lis List

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist

Poops!
<http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist>

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/142298
post # 142298

Uh, a scale will be more or less helpful to you. I used one, for about a
week. lol
Seriously, a scale can help, but the usefulness of them are limited. After
you are more confident feeding your dogs raw, you can just 'eyeball'
amounts, and adjust up or down depending on if one of them are getting ribby
or a little too fluffy!

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 6, 2007 2:13 PM, sheila <schatzee@comporium.net> wrote:

> Hi all, Just started raw feeding 3 days ago. My main reason was to see
> if this would help my super allergic St. Bernard - this is the only
> thing I haven't yet tried.
>

> <snip>
>

> I bought
> a scale so I could measure everything and where is the best places to
> get meat at decent prices. Sheila
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: new to rawfeeding
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:48 pm ((PST))

Sheila,

Chicken parts are fairly bony....you could add more meat in the form of
chicken breasts to see if that makes it more comfortable for her. Adding
new proteins is more a matter of comfort for you than anything...if you feel
they are digesting chicken without any problems, you can slowly add in new
foods at any time. The worst that will happen is softer stools which really
isn't a big deal...well, unless you have to clean them up! :)

What you feed next is your choice...whatever is easily available in your
area. It can be pork, beef, goat, lamb, etc. Really makes no difference.
The key is to go slow.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "sheila" <schatzee@comporium.net>

Hi all, Just started rawfeeding 3 days ago. My main reason was to see
if this would help my super allergic st.bernard - this is the only
thing i haven't yet tried. Since she will be on raw , i put my
shepherds also on it. We have started with chicken leg quarters and so
far everything is good. St. Bernard was straining a little to go poop
this morning - is that common when first starting.? How long would I
stay with just chicken and what kind of meat would i try next.

Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 12:56 pm ((PST))

Here's my theory...if you have to feed so little meat/bone/organ that
you feel you need to add fillers like green beans so your dog isn't
starving all the time... get a thyroid panel done.

On Dec 6, 2007 9:53 AM, T Smith <coldbeach@gmail.com> wrote:
> I DO add some green beans for my obese dog in order for her not to be
> "hungry" during her very very strict diet. It's a lose or die situation so
> I give her 2 -3 small pieces of meat with those OR I give an organ piece
> with them. Just trying to do the vet best, but I don't want to start making
> the rice, grains & veggies again for my dogs, this was why I quit feeding
> BARF, it was insane, expensive, messy & a failure.
> Agains, I am still what I consider new to RMB & want to be sure I am
> learning it right.
> Thanks.
> Trina

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:28 pm ((PST))

I think what you are seeing is newbies who don't trust the prey model
just yet and feel like there is a need to add "something" other than
just meat bones and organs. We say time and time again that those
things aren't needed nor are they species appropriate. Some people
just can't believe it is that simple. I have tried recently to be a
little more gentle with my wording on the issue because I'm confident
that eventually they'll figure out that all the grinding and such
doesn't do a spot of good.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> I joined here thinking it was specifically Raw prey model
> diets.....I am hearing mention of the rice & grains, etc....
> My question is about what is the specifics of this list: raw meats
> & bones with some fish oils, or miscelaneous type diets that
> include veggies & grains.

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Starting a cat on raw
Posted by: "Jessica MacMillan" spotted101@hotmail.com jessica.macmillan
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:44 pm ((PST))

Okay -

I am new to this list, but not new to raw. My GSDs are doing great on it, my mom's dals do fabulous on it and I have several showdog clients that have fed raw for years and are doing great.

Now, my next question is - how would you start a 13 year old, healthy cat? We forget he is 13 because of how good he looks, but he tends to be a wolf-hound when it comes to kibble and I would like to start him on raw and make him chew a little bit.

Need some hints.

Jess Mac
& The Shepherd Girls (who love their raw food)

_________________________________________________________________
You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i'm Initiative now.
http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGLM

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Fish and Game
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:02 pm ((PST))

"gbongi1" <gbongi1@...> wrote:
>
> -
> > Rule of thumb: If you would eat it, its ok to feed your dog.
>
> Hi thanks for the response. I wouldn't necessarily eat crow but is
> this ok to feed the dog. One hunter friend stated not to bother
> because "crow carry diseases"
> Doesn't everything carry something?? I am not sure if crows really
do
> carry diseases.
*****
They may have fleas, they may have parasites, they may be infected
with West Nile virus but they don't transmit it, as far as I know.
And I'm not sure that dogs are susceptible.

Everything carries bacteria yes. Whether that equates with disease
is I guess how one looks at it. Parasites can be killed by freezing.

The rule of thumb is what you can eat, so can your dog. That doesn't
mean if you cannot eat it your dog cannot not eat it. This rule only
works one way. There are many menu items my dogs thrive on than I
cannot eat. Or at least will not.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. Re: Chicken skin question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:13 pm ((PST))

"jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
> I am feeding the puppy all meat for his second meal (Chicken, turkey,
> and beef). Is this enough to balance out the chicken backs he gets in
> the morning or should I add meat to his morning meal and cut back on
> the bone?
*****
Nutritionally there is no need to worry about balance. Balance is what
happens when you continue to feed an appropriate menu. It's a natural
result.

If you mean balance as in constipation v loose stools, you'll just have
to find out.

It's my druthers to feed mostly meat with some bone as opposed to a
bunch of bony parts followed by meat; but that's me. I have not fed a
meal of two chicken backs and have no intention of ever doing so. I
think one chicken back with a hunk of meat is just fine.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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7b. Re: Chicken skin question
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:44 pm ((PST))

"should I add meat to his morning meal and cut back on the bone?" I would.

I feed mine 1.5 approx of deer meat and I throw in one turkey back for the
bone, which have quite a bit of meat on them for a back.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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8a. New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "Laura Bonavia" lasme8@yahoo.com thebunnylady
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:18 pm ((PST))

+++MOd note: please sign all emails ++++++++

Messages in this topic (14)
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9. Gorge Feeding: Bloat - Torsion Question
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:19 pm ((PST))

I know this was a recent topic and I read the thread. I have a very
specific case I'd like input on. I've been feeding RAW since the end
of Sept. and haven't had a single issue. I'm getting the hang of it
and my dogs got the hang of it long before I did. For my convenience
and their pleasure, I'd like to start feeding bigger once a day, but am
nervous. My GSD had surgery for bloat/gastric torsion in July. I have
my suspicions about the cause (genetics combined w/kibble and/or cat
food), but of course will never know for sure. I understand that it is
highly unlikely that his stomach will flip again (it was "stitched"
up), but bloat can still be a factor. I've seen no adverse affects
from anything he's eaten and he's had quite the variety (chicken, beef,
pork, duck, elk, deer, organs). Some days, his meals vary in size and
that hasn't been an issue either. I don't want to risk his health for
my convenience, but I also know he enjoys his bigger meals. Is it too
early to feed once daily? Considering his history, would it be too
risky?

Thank you,
Alicia

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Just one question....
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:19 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "redangelbordeaux" <Erika@...> wrote:
>
> 40# super score of lamb brest for only .99 a lb!
>
WHERE did you get lamb of any kind for this price, and:

A. Do they have any more?

B. Do they ship?

Stock up. It will keep for a long time in the freezer, if you are
worried about feeding too much lamb at a time.

Wendy, drooling at your good fortune

Messages in this topic (8)
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11a. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:19 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> outcats4@ wrote:
> Im concerned about feeding them to my dog. Are they
> > safe ? He isnt a gulper, but there just seems to be so many bones
> in them. Has
> > anyone had any problems with turkey necks?
> *****
...> Turkey necks bones are easy peasy to crunch; my 10lb cat can do
> serious harm to a hen turkey neck all by her lonesome. I can
> understand why you perceive them as daunting but really, they are not.

Chris, would they be a good choice for a small dog who is reluctant to
tackle bone in his meals, but adores wreck bones? I want to get all
the old marrow bones out of the house, but am in need of something to
fill their place in his heart and tummy. I think my cats would enjoy
them, too.

Thanks!

Wendy

Messages in this topic (11)
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12a. Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "Kelly" kpetska@mgmmirage.com kpet1218
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:44 pm ((PST))

Hello everyone,

Today will be day three since I have started my male 1 year old 3.3
pound Chihuahua on raw. Day 1 I offered him a whole chicken wing.
He chewed up the bone and all of the third section and then I ended
up pulling the meat off the rest and he ate the bone in the second
section. (I know, from reading older posts I guess this
is "babying".) Last night I offered a chicken quarter. He was
gnawing with his back teeth on the skin of it but I dont' think he
ever got much off of it (skin). I flipped it over so he could see
the meaty parts but it's like he's trying to be all dainty about it.
Do I just let him poke around for a while then pick it up and try
again the next day and just continue till he figures out he needs to
pin the dang thing down and rip it up? I don't have time in the
morning to supervise a 30-60 min picky eating session so he'd be
waiting a full 24 hours.

Also, he's only pooped 1/4 of a TEASPOON since the chicken wing
Tuesday night. I bought some pure pumpkin last night (no, not pie
filling) to offer him tonight if he still hasn't pooped - he hasn't
even tried to poop since Wednesday morning.

I'm offering the chicken quarter from last night that he never really
got much of again tonight. I ended up pulling the leg off of it (the
leg is bigger than his head).

I'm open to suggestions/comments - anything :) My main concerns are
blockage/perf from the bones - I've read many of the old posts and
the internet links on this as well. How long till he gets the hang
of this?

Kelly Petska

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:53 pm ((PST))

Kelly,

Chicken wings are mainly bone...you need to make sure he is getting more
meat. You could "ribbon" the meat on the quarters...or get some breasts and
slice into them in a few spots to give him a starting point. Add meat
rather than pumpkin (which isn't an appropriate food).

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Kelly" <kpetska@mgmmirage.com>

I'm offering the chicken quarter from last night that he never really
got much of again tonight. I ended up pulling the leg off of it (the
leg is bigger than his head).

Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. Re: Today's finding;Turkey liver and Vitamin A
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:02 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/6/2007 10:50:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com writes:

That was surprising finding.

If you compare with chicken liver

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Ak.html

Same 1 ounce has roughly 3000 IU(1/7 of Turkey liver amount)!!

Yassy,

i know i've told you this a bunch of times before.. but i'm gonna try again.

Organs are a VERY small part of the overall diet and liver is an even smaller
amount of that.

we cut up 2 turkeys last week? or the week before? and got 2 turkey livers.
the hearts i gave to the fish, and the gizzards went with the livers to the
dogs that finished eating and came back to the kitchen first (Tara Belle
(belgian/wolf) and Pugsley(golden)).

The last time any of my 9 dogs had liver of any kind before that was when we
dug the last of the buffalo livers out of the freezer and everybody had a nice
sized hunk o liver 2 nights in a row with their regular meal, probably last
month or october..

IMO, you're spending too much time worrying about things that take care of
themselves naturally. If you feed Palette the entire turkey, with it's giblets
before moving on to the next type of meat, she will have eaten enough liver
for the amount of turkey she had. Same goes with pork, if you buy and feed
through an entire pig, the liver that came with that pig will be enough for the
amount of meat and edible bone in that same pig. And you wouldn't be feeding
liver every day or even every other day..

Do you see where i'm going? Give Palette the turkey liver, let her enjoy it.
And in a week or two.. or three.. give her some more liver or some other
organs from another animal. it really does balance out over time, it doesn't
have to be perfect at every meal or even in every week.

All that measuring and worrying about details will wear you down.. or
actually it would wear me down, i can't necessarily speak for you. But if i
approached raw feeding with that type of precision i would be nuts in a week (not to
say that i'm not already looooony) and i would have given up trying to feed my
dogs a healthy diet and returned to kibble before i ever saw the benefits of
feeding raw.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (3)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12350

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Chicken skin question
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Chicken skin question
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
From: Jessica MacMillan
2b. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
From: cujo1012

3a. Re: another knackery drop off
From: Mary Tinder
3b. Re: another knackery drop off
From: merril Woolf

4a. Re: Wild Rabbit Organ
From: Susanne MacLeod

5a. Re: update and a few questions ;)
From: Andrea
5b. Re: update and a few questions ;)
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Anyone feeding DDB a RAW Diet?
From: Doguefan@aol.com
6b. Re: Anyone feeding DDB a RAW Diet?
From: A I

7a. Re: Section of deer where it was shot...
From: Tina Berry

8a. Re: Feeding Foster Puppies
From: costrowski75
8b. Re: Feeding Foster Puppies
From: carnesbill

9a. List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
From: T Smith
9b. Re: List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
From: Chia
9c. Re: List: Confused: BARF, NO Grains, RAW
From: rosey031801
9d. Re: List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
From: Sandee Lee
9e. Re: List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
From: Tina Berry
9f. Re: List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
From: carnesbill

10.1. Re: Hello! I just joined.
From: costrowski75

11a. Today's finding;Turkey liver and Vitamin A
From: Yasuko herron
11b. Re: Today's finding;Turkey liver and Vitamin A
From: Tina Berry

12a. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
From: Sandee Lee

13a. new to rawfeeding
From: sheila

Messages
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1a. Re: Chicken skin question
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 6:56 am ((PST))

You are balancing out the bone with meaty meat, so nutritionally it
isn't a problem. Some dogs don't do well with boney meals though. One
of my dogs gets dry hard poo any time he eats half a chicken, so I know
he wouldn't be happy with a chicken back meal. If your pup's stools
have been ok you're doing fine. If he's having dry crumbly stools you
might want to feed one back per meal with meaty meat added to it.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:

> I am feeding the puppy all meat for his second meal (Chicken, turkey,
> and beef). Is this enough to balance out the chicken backs he gets in
> the morning or should I add meat to his morning meal and cut back on
> the bone?

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Chicken skin question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 7:04 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
> I am feeding the puppy all meat for his second meal
> (Chicken, turkey,
> and beef). Is this enough to balance out the chicken backs he
> gets in
> the morning or should I add meat to his morning meal and cut back on
> the bone?

Hey Jay,
I think you are too concerned about "balance". Balance is a concept
that had been designed by humans and is completely arbitrary numbers.
When I got my Thor at 12 weeks, I fed him 2 chicken backs in the
morning (I still do this every day) and the evening meal is whatever I
feel like feeding him. Sometimes it's chicken quarters, sometimes
turkey necks, sometimes turkey wings, sometimes pork roasts, sometimes
venison roasts, sometimes beef roasts, sometimes fish, sometimes
ground venison and some leftovers almost every night. A few times a
week I add some beef heart to his meal and every week or so I will
feed a glob of liver with his meal.

He is going to have his 3rd birthday next month and is healthy,
energetic, happy, and has a good build. His stools are solid and he
hasnt' been to the vet in his life except for puppy shots and
heartworm tests. I have been feeding my Abby (7 1/2 year old Dane)
the same for over 5 years and she is just as healthy.

Feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals and don't
worry about balance. Balance will work itself out over time. No one
knows what balance is anyway. Just keep an eye on his build, on his
stools, his coat and his energy level. If anything is out of whack,
one of those will tell you.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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2a. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
Posted by: "Jessica MacMillan" spotted101@hotmail.com jessica.macmillan
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 7:04 am ((PST))

I feed turkey necks on a pretty regular basis and my dogs LOVE them. I feed them whole and the dog's chew and chew like crazy.. My two are not gulpers (fortunately).

Assuming you have a good sized dog, he has been strong teeth to chew through bones like turkey necks. Turkey necks are even great for little dogs and growing puppies.

I do hear occasionally that my mom's 12 year old dog (who has been eating raw for about 8 years) used to occasionally upchuck a bone, but just a small piece and it would get eaten right up.

Jess M
& the Shepherd Girls

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Messages in this topic (10)
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2b. Re: afraid to feed turkey necks
Posted by: "cujo1012" knuj101@cinci.rr.com cujo1012
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 7:04 am ((PST))

My shelties get turkey neck when I have them and the only incident we
had was a couple of time my very timid female got the bones stuck on
her back teeth. She would just stand there with her mouth open looking
at me. After helping her a few times, she seemed to figure it out
because I don't noticed it anymore.

Darla

Has
> anyone had any problems with turkey necks?
> Thanks for your help,
> Barb
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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3a. Re: another knackery drop off
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 7:04 am ((PST))

Jane, you are an inspiration!
What do you mean by dressing?
Mary Tinder

All I have to do is take to them with an axe to make them
> manageable for the freezer.

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: another knackery drop off
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 10:08 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "bluegracepwd" <janea@...> wrote:
>
> I got a call last night from the knackery to say they are 2 sheep and
> 1 foal - all deceased and did I want them. Well of course I did. For
> $30 I got all this, and delivery included, and of course, the knackery
> does all the hard work of "dressing them", or "undressing" them as I
> call it. All I have to do is take to them with an axe to make them
> manageable for the freezer. The foal didn't make it through the
> birthing process. It was very suprising how substantially hard the
> bone was on the foal - much harder than the sheep.
>
> The dogs think I am the best hunter ever!
>
> cheers
>
> Jane

Good score, Jane!

We've had baby calves who didn't survive the birth process given to us also. They were
easy to cut up next to a full grown cow though. Bones were pretty much totally
consumable.

I wish we could get ours already dressed. How sweet is that.

Merril

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Wild Rabbit Organ
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 7:04 am ((PST))

Perfect Bill...thats great...just wanted to be sure!!!
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: update and a few questions ;)
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 7:11 am ((PST))

> With the great deal on lamb I really want to stock my whole
> freezer with it.

Lamb breast is kind of fatty in my experience, so I'd make sure to
have some meaty meat meals as well. The heart will work well for
this. IMO lamb is a much better staple than chicken is, and that
price makes it even better.

> If a window adjacent to the yard is open when someone makes a
> deposit in the yard you will definatley smell it in the house! They
> have gas that will peel the paper off the walls and when they burp
> it smells like decomp or rotten chicken.

Some dogs are prone to gas/burps/etc. with new proteins, and some
proteins seem to cause more gas at first than others. Lamb is at the
top of the list for causing weapons grade gas in my house. It seems
like after a couple of days the gas production dies down a lot.
Either that or my sense of smell goes on strike after a couple of
days. Once they get used to the food I don't notice any bad gas
unless I quit feeding it for over a month and then come back to it.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (7)
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5b. Re: update and a few questions ;)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:12 am ((PST))

Erika <Erika@...> wrote:
With the great deal on lamb I really want to stock my whole freezer
with it. I know that variety is important but would it be ok to feed
the majority of meals in a week consisting of Lamb breast with a bit
of other meat added, like heart and then feed pork one day and
chicken or turkey another day? or is that overdooing it on the lamb?
It's a tough call when something that is soo good is so cheap!
*****
You do not have to feed variety on a daily basis; you don't even need
to feed variety on a weekly basis. If you have something great like
lamb, feed lamb. Feed it til the source dries up, if your dog are
good for it. If you want to stretch the supply, then certainly you
can rotate other meats. But you don't have to. Not at all.

I have read everyone speaking small size and of lack of waste odor,
and dog gass since changing to raw. Now my dogs do have the small
compact poops but my god to they stink to high heaven.
*****
I have not especially noticed this (or else I simply don't notice it
any longer) but I'm sure meatymeat waste will be more aromatic than
meatybone waste, and that waste from a high-bone-content meal will be
even less smelly than waste from a meal that was, say, 50% meat and
50% bone.

I'm pretty comfortable saying the gamut of "normal" raw stools are
far less stinky than the gamut of "normal" kibble stools were. With
my dogs.

They have gas that will peel the paper off the walls and when they
burp it smells like decomp or rotten chicken.
*****
Yes, after seven plus years my dogs can still belch me awake at
night, especially after a big old lamb meal. And yes, chicken can
produce some dreadful rotten fumes, I agree. Perhaps you might
reduce meal size for a while; perhaps you will have to feed smaller
meals indefinitely. Or remove the fat for a while. Hard to know.
You could try a digestive enzyme--one specifically for protein and
fat, not Beano or other vegetable-based products.

My dogs rarely demonstrate digestive distress (knock wood) and their
stools generally reflect what was et, so I don't worry much about
death breath these days. If the total, overall digestive experience
seems uneventful, I make the usual snide comments and that's that.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Re: Anyone feeding DDB a RAW Diet?
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 7:57 am ((PST))

Hi Erika.? I think there are quite a few of us on here actually.? I feed 4 DDB, and I will never go back.? One fo mine is also 6 weeks pregnant and she looks fantastic, I am anxious to see my first "raw" litter and to see how Momma does!? My dogues look incredible on raw....it is a challenge because I am feeding such large amounts to keep prices down, but we do pretty well.? I feed all sorts of stuff-beef heart, whole chickens, ostirch scrap, beef scrap, all sorts of pork, lamb necks, mackeral, salmon chunks(when I can't get it I use oil), tripe, and and great organ mixture with tongue and beef meat mixed in.?
The DDB's really seem to do well on this diet, no skin issues any more, the puppy is growing great, and my older girl looks young again!
If you have any questions feel feee to e-mail me.

Chelsea
www.bruinbordeaux.com

eaux <Erika@redangelbordeaux.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 12:04 am
Subject: [rawfeeding] Anyone feeding DDB a RAW Diet?

I am just wondering if there is anyone on the list who has been
feeding there Bordeaux a RAW diet.

Feel free to contact me off of the list.

I'm looking to get advice and share some breed specific experiences of
feeding RAW to our breed of dog. Especially interested in chatting
with a fellow breeder!

Thanks,
Erika

________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Anyone feeding DDB a RAW Diet?
Posted by: "A I" bordeauxpups@yahoo.com bordeauxpups
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 10:08 am ((PST))

Hi Erika - I think I wrote you off line a week ago or so. I also have DDB's that I do Holistic/Organic Raw with. It is wonderful and my pups are just beautiful! We had a litter of 14 in May. All gone now and I miss them so much but I talk with all the owners quite frequently and many have continued the diet.

Aimee

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Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Section of deer where it was shot...
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 8:30 am ((PST))

"3-sided arrow point in her dog's crate after he finished eating. It was
buried in the ribs. Needless to say she was extremely upset especially at
the thought if she had fed the same slab to one of her gulpers.

I'm considering a metal detector because we have quite a lot of venison."

Good idea - i've found 3 sided arrows twice - thankfully before I gave it to
my dogs; I feel all the meat super carefully with thin gloves so I can feel
for the bullets, arrows, shattered bone shards....

--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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8a. Re: Feeding Foster Puppies
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 9:25 am ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:

> The thing you want to be careful about with giant breed puppies is
> over nutrition. This can cause all kinds of bone growth problems
that
> I am sure you are aware of.
*****
Over NUTRITION is not likely to do that. Over FEEDING may well do
that. You should not dumb down nutrition for fear of speed-growing a
pup; you should feed the pup high quality, easily-digested nutrition.
But the amount of food should keep the pup appropriately lean.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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8b. Re: Feeding Foster Puppies
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:26 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> Over NUTRITION is not likely to do that. Over FEEDING may well do
> that. You should not dumb down nutrition for fear of speed-
>growing a pup; you should feed the pup high quality, easily-
>digested nutrition.
> But the amount of food should keep the pup appropriately lean.

Chris,
I think you typed that before you stopped to think. Nutrition is
what causes growth. You can feed a puppy 10lbs of cardboard or
sawdust a day and he won't grow. You can feed a pound or so
(depending on the puppy's size) of beef heart and he will grow
fast. You have to feed nutrition to get him to grow. Nutrition
causes growth in a puppy not the amount of food. Yes, if you feed
less food, you automatically feed less nutrition. Going back to my
original statement, overnutrition causes bone growth problems in
giant breed dogs, is true.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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9a. List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 10:08 am ((PST))

I joined here thinking it was specifically Raw prey model diets.....I am
hearing mention of the rice & grains, etc....
My question is about what is the specifics of this list: raw meats & bones
with some fish oils, or miscelaneous type diets that include veggies &
grains.
I am just curious :-) I am trying to stick with just meats & Bones only &
just want to be sure this is correct & that I don't add these extras.
I DO add some green beans for my obese dog in order for her not to be
"hungry" during her very very strict diet. It's a lose or die situation so
I give her 2 -3 small pieces of meat with those OR I give an organ piece
with them. Just trying to do the vet best, but I don't want to start making
the rice, grains & veggies again for my dogs, this was why I quit feeding
BARF, it was insane, expensive, messy & a failure.
Agains, I am still what I consider new to RMB & want to be sure I am
learning it right.
Thanks.
Trina

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Messages in this topic (6)
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9b. Re: List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 10:22 am ((PST))

#### you only hear mention of rice/grains etc by misguided people who
peruse the internet and find incorrect information, and question all of us
about it.

Dogs are carnivores and do NOT required ANY vegetation or grains. If they
did, Mother Nature certainly would have built them differently. If you
have a horse, feed grass, if you have a carnivore, feed flesh.. simple as
that!

YOU are on the right track! As for your overweight dog, ditch the beans
and have her have to work for her food. Feed as large and cumbersome a
piece or carcass as possible as this will increase the meal duration. I do
not know of her age and dental health, but if everything is fine in that
area, try and have her work for her meals and gradually increase exercise.
She'll lean out beautifully.

Read the archives since it is a goldmine of info and ask us more specific
questions when required!

It's easy....it's simple...it's following nature's plan!

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (6)
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9c. Re: List: Confused: BARF, NO Grains, RAW
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 10:50 am ((PST))

I think there are some who do give the dogs vegies or grains. That
doesn't mean it is ok. In my opinion, they only need meat and bone. My
dog has eaten nothing but meat and bone, eggs and organs since June
2006. He is healthier than I have ever seen him. He is at least ten, I
have had him for 8 years. Ignore the ignorant and do what's best for
your pet!
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (6)
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9d. Re: List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:11 am ((PST))

Trina,

We discuss appropriate diet daily on this list. Not sure where you have
seen any recommendation to feed rice and grains?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "T Smith" <coldbeach@gmail.com>

> I joined here thinking it was specifically Raw prey model diets.....I am
> hearing mention of the rice & grains, etc....
> My question is about what is the specifics of this list: raw meats & bones
> with some fish oils, or miscelaneous type diets that include veggies &
> grains.

Messages in this topic (6)
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9e. Re: List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:26 am ((PST))

"but I don't want to start making the rice, grains & veggies again for my
dogs,"

I too started out with oats, fruits, veggies and RMB; after much research I
only feed 80% muscle meat, 10% organs and 10% bones - no supplements other
than a daily raw egg with fish oil for my "german shedders" LOL.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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9f. Re: List: Confused: BARF, Grains, RAW?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:26 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> Agains, I am still what I consider new to RMB & want to be sure I
am
> learning it right.

Trina,
You know how to feed raw. Don't expect everything you read on the
internet to be correct. Some people feed veggies ... MANY people
feed kibble. Doesn't mean either is the best way to feed. You know
that dogs are carnivores. You know that carnivores eat meat.
Veggies won't hurt a dog but will give it NO nutrition. You know
all this. You have been told and have read it over and over. You
get it all straight then read something somewhere else, God knows
where and you allow yourself to get all confused again. Don't do
that. Remember the basics. This stuff is very simple. Don't try
to make it complicated. Find something else to worry about. Stop
worrying about your dogs raw diet. Stop doubting yourself. Look at
your dogs. They will tell you when you do something wrong. It is
so very hard to do stuff dangerously wrong with a raw diet. Anytime
you get confused go back and read my web page again.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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10.1. Re: Hello! I just joined.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 10:38 am ((PST))

Just so you all know, this thread dates back to August 2003; it is not
current. If it's something you want to discuss, fine; but please
realize you are relying to a four year old post.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (48)
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11a. Today's finding;Turkey liver and Vitamin A
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 10:50 am ((PST))

Today,I was working on weekly menu for palette. Since I bought whole Turkey after thanksgiving and,it came with ziblet bag including liver that I never ever had luck with finding,I thought I would introduce her Turkey liver next week.

So,I was buuilding her pantry and look what I found.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20DA.html

My dog 34lb can take Vitamin A 3200IU max as optimum amount (100-200IU per kg body weight).This Turkey liver has 20264IU;almost one week worth amount of my dog's amount!!
Her weekly Vitamin A take should be around 22400IU (3200IUx7days).

I usually give up to 1ounce for bird liver in meal but due to this fact,I ended up deciding to give 0.25ounce of Turkey liver for her next week.Still,on that day,she gets 5000IU,which is above optimum amount but I balance out in a week and no problems though.

That was surprising finding.

If you compare with chicken liver

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Ak.html

Same 1 ounce has roughly 3000 IU(1/7 of Turkey liver amount)!!

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: Today's finding;Turkey liver and Vitamin A
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:26 am ((PST))

Interesting. And here's the beef - almost the same as chicken.
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20tw.html
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:04 am ((PST))

Dawn,

More than likely this is merely a reaction to one or more ingredients in the
foods you recently changed to (potatoes, milk, possibly veggies in the raw
mix?). I would get this dog on a prey model diet to aid in building up his
immune system before adding any other supplements, detoxing, etc. You said
you've only had him on raw for 2 days...what exactly are you feeding him?

BTW, a cancer starving diet is no carb, not just no grain. That would leave
out any kibble and many of the frozen raw products. Substituting potatoes
or other veggies for barley and oats still provides lots of starches and
sugars for cancer to feed on.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (11)
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13a. new to rawfeeding
Posted by: "sheila" schatzee@comporium.net osborne_sheila
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:26 am ((PST))

Messages in this topic (17)
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