[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11903

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. New kittens rescued today - need to start raw
From: tolearn4fun

2a. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
From: cmhausrath
2b. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
From: delcaste
2c. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
From: Yasuko herron
2d. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
From: temy1102

3. chicken allergies????
From: Ivette Casiano

4a. Re: Someone mentioned pig something or other for...
From: Giselle
4b. Re: Someone mentioned pig something or other for...
From: angelsnoopers64859

5a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

6.1. File - Other related lists
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

7. Pregnant dog questions
From: Jenny S

8a. Raw and Kibble for Giselle
From: Georgia Gilham
8b. Re: Raw and Kibble for Giselle
From: Goin8@aol.com

9a. bone and blood in the stool
From: span88888
9b. Re: bone and blood in the stool
From: Yasuko herron

10a. Re: rawhide
From: cdhaik
10b. Re: rawhide
From: blechatlb@aol.com

11a. Re: Any dogs 10+ years on raw?
From: lmclaen

12a. Re: meat from farmers?
From: Laurie Swanson
12b. Re: meat from farmers?
From: Yasuko herron
12c. meat from farmers?
From: blechatlb@aol.com

13a. Re: Next new meat? (first week on raw)
From: eyed_blue

14. kitten- Asia
From: Coco WestCoast

15a. Re: raw and kibble mix
From: temy1102

16a. Re: Lamb meat
From: Yasuko herron

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1. New kittens rescued today - need to start raw
Posted by: "tolearn4fun" 2learn4fun@comcast.net tolearn4fun
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:08 am ((PDT))

We have not had cats in MANY years, but my hubby agreed to rescue two
16 week old barn kittens this afternoon whose mother was killed by a
cougar (never underestimate the power of hysterical daughters crying,
pleading and begging to their daddy).

These kittens have been fed crap-in-a-bag (not sure what the mother
hunted and what she taught the kittens). They were spayed/neutered
this week right before their mother was killed, so they still have
stitches and are on limited activity. She also gave them their first
rabies vax. We won't be vaxing further.

How do I start introducing raw food to them? I have LARGE raw food for
our huge dogs. Will raw feeding prevent hairballs and help with poop
like it does for our dogs? I will start reading through the archives
for cat things ASAP when the chaos settles down, but any advice will be
greatly appreciated.

Lori

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:20 am ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:

> Yestreday was my groceryshopping day and,I found big piece of Ox
tail on shelves of meat department area.
> My question is that,I do not remember if I saw any posts about
edible bone or hard to crack category bone for tail.

Hi Yassy --

If you've got whole oxtail (I'm jealous!), go on and feed it.
Palette may or may not eat all the bone, but it shouldn't be in the
dangerously-hard teeth-breaking category. Griffin eats the whole
thing, when he's lucky enough to get it.

> By the way,yesterday,human had pizza which made my dog to protest
not to eat her Elk Rib and whine for smell of good pizza.

Okay, see, Griff wants to come live with you. Whole oxtail, elk
ribs ... woo! He would **love** it.

If Palette pulls a strike on the elk, you can just send it along to
me, honey.

-- sandy & griffin (who both love all game meat)

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:42 pm ((PDT))

when I look at the bone in package on the shelves,when you touch it, it
feels bit soft,but is it category of feumer bone;better to avoid
letting dog eat bone?or is it ok category bone?

Hi, Sandy

I have pugs and a pit. Do you think the pugs could handle oxtail bones?
I can't get them whole but I've seen some cut up ones that are pretty
big. It must be where the cow's tail is connected to the rump. I would
give the smaller pieces to the pittie. Sound good? Thanks for your
reply.

Silvina and the pugs & Chino

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:42 pm ((PDT))

>If you've got whole oxtail (I'm jealous!), go on and feed it.

Hi,Sandy.

I may have just being lucky.I don' t know but at least yestreday,if you went to Giant Super market,you could have had same deal.

I don't know if Richmond area had Giant or not but like you wrote in different posts;you told poster to ask meat guy whatever you looking for andyou may get whole anything,you may find one too.

>Palette may or may not eat all the bone, but it shouldn't be in the dangerously-hard teeth->breaking category.

I thought so. I am still testing water sort of situation,I need to find out lots of things;what she likes,what she doesn't like...how much she can torelate things..

This way of feeding really need observation and to learn more about your dog.

>Okay, see, Griff wants to come live with you. Whole oxtail, elk ribs ... woo! He would >**love** it.

Ha-ha. Well,since beginning,I sort of made list of what protin I like to feed as menu and gather up from suppliers when started and stocked up feeezer good enough for maybe 6 months to a year.

Some could buy just 10lb minimum,and such things would last quite long.

>If Palette pulls a strike on the elk, you can just send it along to me, honey.

As for Elk,I have not fed Elk boneless and Elk heart and Elk Tongue yet.

So,still more need time to figure out about her saying about Elk,but if you want and if Palette did protested like this all the time, it maybe possibility:-P

yassy

---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:07 pm ((PDT))

i'm not sandy, but if i were you, i'd feed the bigger pieces to the
pit and the smaller pieces to the pugs. my 7 lb. dog strips the meat
and just gnaws on the bones, and my 50 lb. dog crunches up the whole
thing. you wouldn't want the pieces so small that your bigger dog
would try to swallow it whole, right?

tammy & grover

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3. chicken allergies????
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:38 am ((PDT))

<<...Possible? I imagine so. Most anything is possible.
Probable, on the other hand? I think not. My personal opinion, from
my own experience & 4 years on-and-off of reading & contributing to
this list, is that people LEAP to assume that something is a food
allergy. In reality their problems can be more readily explained
some other way, but people like to feel that they're in control ...>>

Sandy, I whole-heartedly agree with you. Do I have your permission to copy your post and send it to my boyfriend? What you describe about his control issues is "right on the money" and our poor dog is suffering for it. Now that I'm enlightened, I'm trying to change his way of thinking. Someone else on this or another list suggested I offer to be in charge of the feeding for one month and then we'll see. I'm going to try it and hope my bf goes for it.
These lists have been invaluable to me in this uphill struggle (not with Nugget, but with my bf).
Thanks again.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Someone mentioned pig something or other for...
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:42 am ((PDT))

OT answer!
A link on OES gait;
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/143
"Gait/Movement
When walking, exhibits a bear-like roll from the rear. When trotting,
shows effortless extension and strong driving rear action, with legs
moving straight along line of travel. Very elastic at the gallop. At
slow speeds, some dogs may tend to pace. When moving, the head
carriage may adopt a naturally lower position."

from another site; "The Old English sheepdog's gait appears
effortless, yet it is powerful and fast. At slower speeds, the dog may
pace or shuffle, giving it a "bear-like" roll."

I remembered this 'cause a Newfy's gait is often described similarly.
Its actually the skin that rolls as the dog moves - seen it umpteen times.
So, I think its a result of the function of a slightly different body
structure, rather than a 'jelly roll, carb-laden' appearance. ; )
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> ***** <snip>
> OT question about the OES. The breed is always described as having
a rolling gait. Is that a look that's been perpetuated perhaps by
> carbokibble feeders, or does their physiology actually incline them
> to that side to side effect? I wonder if a carbohydrate menu
> produces a less loose appearance. Just curious.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Someone mentioned pig something or other for...
Posted by: "angelsnoopers64859" angelsnoopers64859@yahoo.com angelsnoopers64859
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:59 pm ((PDT))

Thank you.
I don't really care what AKC or any other site says they SHOULD be.
They are skinny minnies. One is worse than the other. On Max, you can
see every rib and those awful hip bumps. I don't want "fat" dogs just
healthy for their size. Mollie just got done with puppies so I expect
she will start putting on weight. They eat lamb and chicken primarily
with an occassional whole rabbit. I ffed twice a day but when they
are looking good and healthy I will cut to one. It seems the more I
feed the skinnier Max gets. I took him to the vet and had lots of
testing done to the tune of $200. No worms, no disease. Vet says he
is healthy just lanky, like a teenager who hasn't filled out. He runs
off everything he eats but I noticed the other day he was unnaturally
skinny. I have never seen a dog that big so thin and still be on his
feet. I called the vet and she says I am just a worrywort to just
wait for him to age a little and settle. He is 13-14 months old. I
will feed him pig a few days a week and see how it goes.
Thank you so much for the advice.
Valerie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "angelsnoopers64859" <angelsnoopers64859@> wrote:
> >
> > I have Old English Sheepdogs who are at 50 lbs. right now and I am
> > looking to add 5-10 lbs onto them.
> *****
> So. Are they skinny ninnies or are you working to get them to the
> typical carbo-loaded conformation ring look? You'll never get them
> to that jelly roll appearance by feeding them a species appropriate
> diet, since of course there's no significant carbs on the menu.
>
> Feeding more food (to bowel tolerance) will put on weight though,
so
> feed larger, fattier meals and if necessary add more meals and
reduce
> exercise. Feed them according to what you would prefer them to
> weigh, not what they currently weigh.
>
> Pork and lamb come with lots of fat, so most any but the leanest
cuts
> will help. Skin-on pork shoulder, trotters, hocks, brisket bone,
> riblets--pork will be easiest and cheapest to find. Lamb breasts
are
> fat repositories, so look for them, untrimmed.
>
> Also consider beef chuck roasts and brisket (not corned!),
untrimmed
> and plenty fatty. You can also get beef and pork fat, which you
can
> add to every meal.
>
> Don't pluck chicken or turkey fat, consider feeding domestic duck.
>
> Try to introduce fat gently, to minimize digestive upset. Slow and
> steady. You can have buff, healthy dogs through proper feeding,
but
> getting there quickly may not happen.
>
> OT question about the OES. The breed is always described as having
a
> rolling gait. Is that a look that's been perpetuated perhaps by
> carbokibble feeders, or does their physiology actually incline them
> to that side to side effect? I wonder if a carbohydrate menu
> produces a less loose appearance. Just curious.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:48 pm ((PDT))

Hello all! (Don't delete without reading. Yes, there is a test later.)

Firstly, the raw feeding list was established in 1999. It has evolved under a couple of different names, but remains with primarily the same list moderation team.

This primary objective of the list is to provide a place where people who
feed raw food or who want to feed raw can discuss this and closely associated issues.

This is not a list to discuss which kibble or home cooking method is best.
There are other email lists that can provide you with that sort of forum.
The forum here is specifically to discuss appropriate raw diets.

*******A learning environment

We aim at all times to maintain a learning environment.
Every so often someone joins the list with a different agenda.
We work hard in the background to do everything we can to keep discussion on topic at all times, and those who don't find the environment comfortable (about 0.5%), we encourage to join other more suitable email lists.

The most important thing is you join a group you are comfortable with.
We acknowledge the vast differences that exist between people and their learning styles, and as you'll appreciate we can't make everyone happy.

Now for a few of the easy rules:

*******PLEASE TRIM YOUR POSTS

This means when you are replying to an email DO NOT include the ENTIRE EMAIL in your reply.

You can include a SMALL portion of the email you are replying to. Try to stick to a couple of relevant lines.

Delete all headers and footers.

List members who do not trim their posts will be placed on moderation.

**********PLEASE SIGN YOUR MAILS

This means when you are to sign your name at the bottom of every single mail you send to the list.

List members who continue to send unsigned posts after being warned risk having their mail deleted!!

**********CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE WHEN THE SUBJECT CHANGES
This is a high volume list. Changing subject lines allows people to delete those messages that are topics they have no interest in. IF you change subject lines properly then when responding to a post of the same subject you should not have to include ANY of the email you are responding too since those reading the thread will be able to follow it anyway.

********NO MONSTER SIGNATURES PLEASE!
Several lines are ok but nothing over 4 lines please.
(and please don't advertise in your signatures either)

*********NEW MEMBERS ARE MODERATED.
You will not get OFF of moderate until you prove you can trim your posts and change your subject lines. ALSO the moderators do not have time to trim your posts for you so if a post comes through moderate that is not trimmed it will be sent back to you to trim before it is sent to the list.

If you are currently off of moderate but stop changing subject lines or trimming posts for some reason you will be put back on moderate.

Following these simple rules will make life easier for folks on digest
and save money for those folks who must PAY for their Internet by the amount of time they are on line.

Thanks so much.

List Moderators

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6.1. File - Other related lists
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:48 pm ((PDT))

This list is part of a group of lists run by the same moderation team. Since several of the lists are quite large we often encourage that threads be taken to some of the smaller subject specific lists so you may want to join the lists that cover issues you are interested in now.

The lists are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldrawguys/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catandkittenhealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learntoshow/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DogHealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogmentor/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawbreeder/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawPup/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RMBLobby/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canineaggression/

And if you are stuck on a particular issue that you just can't seem to work out, try this list:

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/rawissues

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BasicRaw/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalFerrets/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawVet/
For vets, vet techs and vet students only

There is also a list of lists where other raw feeding lists can be found. Many are breed specific, location specific or subject specific.

http://www.rawlearning.com

Thanks from the moderation team!

Messages in this topic (115)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7. Pregnant dog questions
Posted by: "Jenny S" jenken69@shaw.ca jenken69
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi ..ok kinda stupid questions here ...but i'm 99% positive my Shih-Tzu is with puppies :)..yesterday she was vomiting up yellow bile all day, listless and wouldn't eat .I'm sure her temp was up as well..i've been reading up on it and I'm sure she is a week into it ..
anyway my question is how much do I feed her once she regains her appetite as well what's the best ratio. she wont eat eggs and dossnet eat organ meat very often just turns up her nose at it so would it be ok to cook it for her just to make sure she gets the nutrients from it..as well should I put her on any kind of supplement or calcium..
Thanks ..we are very excited and want to do whatever necessary to make sure she does well ..(this is her first litter)..
Jenny S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfMJXz3AvKI (doggy napkin)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L34YjdBCu8I( Fun in the pool) way to funny..

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Raw and Kibble for Giselle
Posted by: "Georgia Gilham" georgia800@cox.net georgia800
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:41 pm ((PDT))

Hi Giselle

I really liked your feeding points for Brian.
I would be interested in your list to help with costs of feeding
raw.
Thanks
georgia gilham

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Raw and Kibble for Giselle
Posted by: "Goin8@aol.com" Goin8@aol.com menoebs
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:28 pm ((PDT))

I would be interested in seeing your price argument also.

Audrey Johnson

"My Goal in Life is to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am!"

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. bone and blood in the stool
Posted by: "span88888" span88888@yahoo.com span88888
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:42 pm ((PDT))

I put Naya, my 2.5 year old beagle on the raw diet 4 months ago. She's
had her typical problems with diarrhea and vomiting which comes and
goes depending on what, when, and how much I feed her.

3 days ago, I went to pick up her stool which looked fine, but I was
pricked by a shard of bone that was so sharp it nearly pierced my thumb.
At that time there was no blood in her stool.

I had a feeling it was a chicken bone, so the following afternoon, I
gave her pork ribs and chicken (without bone). That evening, her stool
was red and still with bone chips in it.

This morning her stool was soft and black without any bone.

It seems like she hasn't been able to digest the bone lately.

I haven't fed her today and I'm not sure if I should put her back on
kibble for now or continue with the raw meat without bones.

I'm worried she may have internal bleeding but I'm going to see how
her next stool looks before I bring her to the vet. Right now she's
full of spunk and constantly hounding me for food (as usual), but it
might be misleading.

Steve

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: bone and blood in the stool
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:58 pm ((PDT))

>I put Naya, my 2.5 year old beagle on the raw diet 4 months ago. 3 days ago, I went to >pick up her stool which looked fine, but I was pricked by a shard of bone that was so sharp >it nearly pierced my thumb.

Hi,Steve.I used to see shard bone in poo a lot wen i just started ,and it went away but occasionaly,rare but still, I see it too..

I am not worrying too much about bone in poo.

>I had a feeling it was a chicken bone,

If you wanted to detect what bone it was,you may want to do jounal like i do.I keep record of waht I fed,how much etc.It helps when I wanted to do detective work or manuver the way of feeding.

> That evening, her stool was red and still with bone chips in it.

You mean dot in poo or quitered in poo? If it were dotted red,I don't worry about it.It maybe from bone marrow stuff.

>This morning her stool was soft and black without any bone.

Poo being soft maybe from too much fat, too much food,too new to soon, or need more bone,or ..did you give organ a lot?That makes poo softer too.

Soft poo meant solid poo head with softer end,I think it is normal and I not to worry about it.

Poo being black maybe from organ if you fed or just being dark colored poo,it is from pork.

I think my dog makes yellowish colored solid poo when I feed pork but I remember Sandy on list told me Griffin does dark poo after pork.

It maybe different from each dog but it could be that.

My dog makes dark colored pooo when I fed rabbit,Bison,Elk,Beef,Lamb.Poultry and pork makes yellowish brown poo for my dog.

As long as the color changes depending on what you feed, and dog being happy looking,I don't worry about it.

If tarry poo no matter what you feed,then,I may worry and go see vet.

> I'm not sure if I should put her back on kibble for now or continue with the raw meat >without bones.

I think changing back to diet require digestive system adjust to new kibble diet again,and it may not be in good interest of your dog,plus you know that raw feeding is better than kibble.

What is your dog poo status?

She just go poo 1 a day or cannot controlled?
If the dog can control the poo(no accident in house, no frequent poo visit and watery poo),you are ok.You may just need more bone to add meal.

If poo is soft,and if you worry about,then,feed more bone and,if the dog cannot controll the poo,andpoo being watery,then, maybe try help sooth thestomach with Slippery Elm that everyone is talking about and see how your dog does
Usually it helps firm up the poo with more controll,I hear.

If just 1 time poo and ok poo just color being black,keep an eye on it andsee if the color changes depending on what you feed,keep journal and see the reaction.

If the color stay black,go see vet.

I hope this helps.

yassy

---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: rawhide
Posted by: "cdhaik" cdhaik@yahoo.com cdhaik
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:44 pm ((PDT))

No i would never reccomend rawhide, i have had both dogs with
blockages and choking and will never let my dogs near them again. Even
on the big bone size. So no bully sticks are better and all the other
yuck bits of raw feeding (pigs feet, heads and so on) for fun chews.

Caren y Amber y Rain y Angus

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: rawhide
Posted by: "blechatlb@aol.com" blechatlb@aol.com blechatlb
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:11 pm ((PDT))

Also,

The hair is often burned off of rawhides with arsenic. Not something you
want your dog to ingest! Bully sticks are a better choice. I recommend those
made by Free Range called Moo! - These are 'drained' and have less of a smell,
if that is of concern to you. They are from free range cows that are grass
fed, no hormones or antibiotics.

TracyB

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Any dogs 10+ years on raw?
Posted by: "lmclaen" lmclaen@yahoo.com lmclaen
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:27 pm ((PDT))

Thanks all for your responses, it's all very encouraging!! Laeny

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: meat from farmers?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jennifer,

I live in Seattle and shop primarily at the grocery stores (bigger
stores and health food stores) and Asian markets. I joined our local
WA/OR buying group and got a bunch of grass-fed lamb from a farmer
through the group. Also, from doing some online research and
inquiring, I got in on a deal for grass-fed beef from a ranchers' co-
op. So now my freezer's full.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_ricotta" <ricottaj@...>
wrote:
>
> Is anyone getting their meat from farmers or are you all buying in
bulk at the grocery store,
> butcher, or costco type place?
> Jennifer
>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: meat from farmers?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:59 pm ((PDT))

>got meat from ranchers' co-op. So now my freezer's full.

HI,Laurie. Ranchers co-op is something each state may have? How did you google?
Just put ranchers in search key word?

Price for meat is quite reasonable that way?

I am curious.

yassy

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

12c. meat from farmers?
Posted by: "blechatlb@aol.com" blechatlb@aol.com blechatlb
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

Jennifer,

I get most of my meat from a farmer who delivers to me, but I still shop
sales at the various grocery and ethnic markets.

TracyB

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: Next new meat? (first week on raw)
Posted by: "eyed_blue" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:22 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Chris, thats cleared a few things up for me.

Natalie

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14. kitten- Asia
Posted by: "Coco WestCoast" cocowestcoast@yahoo.ca cocowestcoast
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:52 pm ((PDT))

recently adopted Asia (kitten)which is 3 months, she had first set of
shots. I know vaccines don't always work so how do you keep pet
healthy and virus free without shots on a raw diet? She will be indoor
but we people track things in and I will also be getting a puppy in 6
months or so.
Also, I want to raw feed and think chicken breast would be a good
start for both?

Coco

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

15a. Re: raw and kibble mix
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

wow that was a really heartbreaking story! poor nugget and you! i
can't help so much on the science of things, but what i've learned
lately is that many of the people i've spoken to will not or do not
start their dogs on raw until they've already gotten sick. young dogs
appear to be thriving on kibble, but that's because they're young.
only when they are older and start weakening and having so many
problems and people start to realize, "oh my god, i could lose
him/her!" do they start to think seriously about their dog's
nutrition. i wish so much that i could have fed our elderly family
dog on raw for his whole life, but we only started when he was 13, and
at least his life-threatening conditions have disappeared. although
he still has severe allergies and skin problems, the turnaround has
been amazing.

tell your boyfriend to think about his dog's future. something that
helped convince my mom about raw feeding was when i told her, "if we
had pet rabbits, would you be okay with us feeding them meat? then
why is okay for our dogs to be eating grains and vegetables?"

also, my oldie who was kibble fed all his life had loose stools for a
loooong time in the beginning. several months actually. and even
now, if he's under any stress or if he's skipped a meal, he'll have
loose stools again. my foster puppies were littermates, and one of
them had great stools after only a couple weeks, and the other one
took a month. it really depends on the dog. i remember reading
stories about prisoners of war who were fed the same thing day in and
day out, and when they were released and could eat normal food again,
would have horrible digestion problems. our dogs have lived on poison
for a long time, and although that's what they're used to, it is NOT
okay to continue feeding it to them. it just takes time.

hope this helps! good luck!

tammy & grover

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

16a. Re: Lamb meat
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

>Six cut I think is tee-rific!

Hi,Chris.If you order 6 way cut,you already being decided what you get?

Or you can decide which cut you want? Isit come with organs?

Curious.

yassy

---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11902

There are 26 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: New to rawfeeding-need help!
From: Jacqueline Miller
1b. Re: New to rawfeeding-need help!
From: jennifer_ricotta

2a. Re: Goat Meat?
From: Ivette Casiano
2b. Re: Goat Meat?
From: Denise Strother

3a. Re: Starting raw feeding
From: carnesbill

4a. meat from farmers?
From: jennifer_ricotta
4b. Re: meat from farmers?
From: Giselle
4c. Re: meat from farmers?
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: raw and kibble mix
From: Ivette Casiano
5b. Re: raw and kibble mix
From: Giselle

6a. Re: Starting with chicken
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Next new meat? (first week on raw)
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: loose stool and vomits?/convincing mother fully?
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Question about RAW feedings
From: Denise Strother
9b. Re: Question about RAW feedings
From: tottime47

10a. ADMIN/Re:Alternative Tx for allergies?
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Someone mentioned pig something or other for...
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: Processing Tripe
From: sphynxlover2
12b. Re: Processing Tripe
From: merril Woolf

13. eczema
From: Sarah

14a. Re: rawhide
From: tottime47
14b. Re: rawhide
From: Mary

15a. Re: Alternative Tx for allergies?
From: ginny wilken

16a. Re: Anyone add vinegar to their dogs drinking water
From: delcaste

17a. Re: Pig Feet and glucosamine
From: delcaste

18. Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
From: Yasuko herron

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: New to rawfeeding-need help!
Posted by: "Jacqueline Miller" beaulincolnsmine@yahoo.com beaulincolnsmine
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:09 am ((PDT))

Hello Jennifer,
You have come to the right place to get the answers to
all of your questions. Not from me, however, because I
have only been feeding raw for about 8 months now. I
have 4 dogs: 2 shepherds, a standard poodle and a
lhasa apso. The poodle is 9 and the lhasa 7. All are
doing extremely well. The lhasa many times will
swallow bones whole. He used to make me cringe
watching him. It reminded me of a snake swallowing its
prey whole. Yuck! But he is doing great. He had a
little trouble with loose stool for awhile but you
couldn't even call it real diarrhea. He crunches the
bones as best as he can. He gets most of his bone in
chicken and fish. I don't give him pork or beef bones
because he doesn't grind them too well. He doesn't
have the same mouth and grinding teeth like the poodle
and shepherds. The shepherds are like experts at raw
especially the larger, older male. He grinds and chews
and is finished in short order. He had a lot of bowel
upset before getting on raw. He was in the emergency
clinic more than once with severe diarrhea as was my
poodle. I hesitated for a long time before putting the
poodle on raw because of her digestive problems. Now,
all on raw and no problems, diarrhea or anything. I
couldn't go back to doing anything else.
Since you have been feeding chicken for awhile is
should be time to introduce another meat beef or pork.

But others who know more and have more experience will
answer your inquiries soon. The moderator is
excellent. They will give you the proper guidance. I
just wanted to encourage you before you heard from
them.
God bless,
Jackie and the Hoodlums

--- jennifer_ricotta <ricottaj@mac.com> wrote:

> MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello everyone. I've been feeding my dog raw
> chicken for a few weeks now without bones to
> ease her into it since she has such fierce digestive
> issues (she even throws up water if she
> drinks too much). Surprisingly, she's doing great,
> considering we tried the raw chicken
> patties earlier this year and she would vomit for 2
> days after! Here are my questions:
> 1-Where are you feeding the dog? I obviously can't
> have her running around the house with
> a raw chicken.
> 2-How do I know if she is crunching the bones
> enough? I fed her bones for the first time last
> night. I think she would have swallowed the chicken
> neck whole if I didn't stop her. I hand
> fed her the neck and a wing. I feel like she barely
> crunched them, though no problems yet.
> She has horribly crooked teeth and is missing one of
> the large sharp incisors from birth. So
> you understand the severity, when she was a pup, the
> vet asked me if she could eat! She's
> seven now though and has no problem eating. Also, I
> gave her a large lamb bone to knaw on
> last week and she did fine. Should I be concerned?
> 3-To solve the above two things, should I just grind
> the bones with the meat? Would it be
> good for her if I did decide to do that and
> occasionally give her a large bone to knaw on for
> her teeth? Also, is there a home meat grinder that
> can do the job?
> 4-Lastly, what bones are you giving your dog? I
> have a 50 lb. pit bull/boxer. I've read
> chicken backs, wings, breast (but not drumstick?)
> but what about the lamb or beef? What
> other meat options should I consider and which
> bones?
> Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: New to rawfeeding-need help!
Posted by: "jennifer_ricotta" ricottaj@mac.com jennifer_ricotta
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:21 am ((PDT))

Jackie,
Thanks for the encouragement. I can't wait until this is all second nature. I'm hoping that
the raw diet will help ease ear, eye, and skin problems that my dog has due to allergies. I'm
excited to see if anything will change. Regardless, I'm happy to do what is best for her.
Thanks and enjoy your Sunday!
Jennifer

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Goat Meat?
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:21 am ((PDT))

<<...Hmmm, this new cubed goat meat was from a primarily Latino market as
well...>>

Noelle, I'm Latina and yes, they do cut up the goat meat with a bone in the center because we use the goat meat for stewing and have to have the hard bone in the center to hold everything together and suck on at the end of the meal.
My parents still live in Puerto Rico and they used to raise goats, Too bad I can't get some of those goats here in Florida.
Good luck searching.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Goat Meat?
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

I live in Houston and found a wholesaler who sells goat meat. They
sell a six way cut, which is a whole goat cut into six pieces for
2.14/lb. In the stores here goat is 4.99/lb and up. Look in your
yellow pages for meat wholesalers, etc. Denise

My parents still live in Puerto Rico and they used to raise goats, Too
bad I can't get some of those goats here in Florida. Good luck
searching.
Ivette Casiano

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Starting raw feeding
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:38 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...>
wrote:
>
> When you say, start with chicken for about a week, then introduce
another type of protein, do you mean feed the other protein every day
for a week or just once to see how he tolerates it and feed chicken
the rest of the days?

I suggest alternating the new protein with the old. The third week,
add another to the rotation, etc.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. meat from farmers?
Posted by: "jennifer_ricotta" ricottaj@mac.com jennifer_ricotta
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

Is anyone getting their meat from farmers or are you all buying in bulk at the grocery store,
butcher, or costco type place?
Jennifer

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: meat from farmers?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:47 am ((PDT))

Hi, Jennifer!
There are many ways to creatively, and cheaply, source
meats for your dogs.
This is a terrific list, shared by another list member;
> where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

1) look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
2) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
3) you may be able to join a barter group.
4) google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
5) look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
6) if you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
7) let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
8) if you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
9) see if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or google to see.
10) try Craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
11) and I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
Freecycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
12) some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sams Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
13) definitely watch the the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
14) *** hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
15) tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
16) a great tip I learned here a while back â€" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. see if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
17) farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. and sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, cause they don't want to take it back with them.
18) some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
19) find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
20) tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
21) yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill (like deer)
22) you can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room
23) post a message in CarnivoreFeed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
24) speak to local farmers
25) also look for heart, tongue, and gizzards which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats
26) find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
27) check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lis

TC
Giselle

> Is anyone getting their meat from farmers or are you all buying in
bulk at the grocery store,
> butcher, or costco type place?
> Jennifer
>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: meat from farmers?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:00 am ((PDT))

"jennifer_ricotta" <ricottaj@...> wrote:
>
> Is anyone getting their meat from farmers or are you all buying in
bulk at the grocery store,
> butcher, or costco type place?
*****
It is my goal to get offa my butt and buy lamb and goat ranch/farm
direct. I get some beef and lamb from processors and rabbit from
breeders and once upon a wonderful time ago I was getting vension from
a custom butcher but no way have I put enough effort into by-passing
the middle man. Phooey on me.

I mostly buy pork from Asian markets, which is okay; and I'm good for
chicken. It's just the ruminant part of the diet that lacks.

Any day now <snort> I will get down to raising my own.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: raw and kibble mix
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:50 am ((PDT))

<<...Good luck convincing him; but I'm guessing seeing the gradual
improvements in his dog will convince him soon enough!
Evie..>>>

Thank you so much, Evie, for your story on starting with raw. He says he's not opposed to raw feeding (since he sees how much Nugget likes), the issue now is that he has runny stool. I'm now trying to convince him to let me feed whole parts with bone so his stool can firm up instead of the ground meat and bone with chunks of meat. He's so afraid Nugget will perforate body parts with the chicken bone. If I'm successful, I'll have a brand new grinder with no use. Oh well, I guess I can make fresh ground burger meat for him.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: raw and kibble mix
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:37 am ((PDT))

Hi, Ivette!
Wheew, let see if I can tease out specific parts of your
post so I can offer a few points of information.

For BRIAN;
1) Dogs are wolves. Except for the outside wrappers, their skeletal
and internal construction and DNA is virtually the same.

2) Wolves don't have grinders, or food processors, or cookers, or
gardens, or fridges in the wild. They don't need them. Neither do dogs.

3) Wolves and dogs evolved to eat prey animals, thats what predators
do. The prey animals eat vegetable matter, the wolves/dogs eat the
prey animal, and they get all the nutrition they need from those
animals, in the form that they evolved to optimally digest.

4) People are omnivores, they can, and should, eat animal and
vegetable matter. Dogs/wolves are carnivores, they eat prey animals.
They cannot properly digest vegetables or grains, which is what kibble
mostly is. In the wild, they can survive on vegetation, but they don't
thrive on it, and as soon as meat 'on the hoof' is available again,
guess what they'll hunt?

5) Look at the difference in the way dog's teeth are made; pointed
tearing teeth and sharp bladelike shearing teeth, no flat grinding
teeth, as in the mouth of humans and herbivores.

6) The whole animal - muscle, bone, organs, skin, connective tissue,
etc. 'the whole package' is what carnivores need to be optimally healthy.

7) A dog's digestive system, which begins in his stomach, unlike a
human's, has very strong gastric acids that are meant to digest raw
meat, bones, etc. Grinding meat and bones for a dog robs them of the
tearing and shearing they have evolved to need for their 'juices to
begin to flow' for proper digestion. Its no wonder ground meat and
bone is horked back up; the stomach hasn't been able to prepare itself
to digest it.

8) Cooking meat changes the chemical composition and makes it harder
to digest, and harder for a dog to derive all the nutrients it needs.
Cooking makes bones brittle, and inappropriate to feed.

9) Tearing, shearing and crunching large muscle and bone parts
provides a dog with the physical activity, mental stimulation and
dental activity they need. Dog's who interact with their food the way
they are meant to are often calmer, have less of a drive to find
something to chew on, and have cleaner, healthier teeth, gums and
jaws. And, absolutely no need for (w)rec'(k) bones.

10) The present commercial pet food industry, as we know it, began not
too many years ago, when our nation became increasingly mobile, and
dogs were shipped by train across the country to dog shows from
breeders with large kennels of dogs. Some enterprising businessmen
discovered a way to make 'dog food' biscuits from grain and meats that
were cooked and baked so that there was no need for refrigerating huge
amounts of meat for the dogs to eat. And, as it caught on, it was
marketed to the general public as a "quick and easy" way to feed your
dog. The lies that dogs are omnivores and need grains, fruits and
veggies came later, when the big corporations needed to defend their
products, attract more customers and get costs down to make more
profits. As our society has become increasingly consumer, advertising
and expert driven, we have come to believe what the pet food companies
want us to believe; that 'real nutritionally balanced dog food' comes
in a can or bag, and that we can know nothing about our dogs real
needs unless their 'experts' tell it to us. Why pay out hard earned
dollars for substandard quality, cooked foods that have ingredients
that you have no control over? And why pay companies for multimillion
dollar advertising budgets; so they can lie to you some more?

11) Dogs choke and die from all sorts of objects; kibble, sticks &
objects they find out in the yard, by tearing up and by ingesting toys
and stuff they find lying around in the house. Sure, they *could*
choke on a bone, but the truth is; dogs choke and die everyday from
ingesting inappropriate nonfood items. They also suffer by poisoning
and intestinal complications from ingesting such items. Dogs who
consume a species appropriate raw prey model diet are much less likely
to try to consume inappropriate items, out of boredom, a lack in their
diet or a drive to chew, than are kibble fed dogs.

12) The type of bones fed to a dog should take into consideration his
size, age, dental construction and crunching drive. Most bones that
are fed to a dog should be of the entirely edible category, for that
particular dog. Most of the hard, dense bones from large critters,
such as cows, shouldn't be fed. Edible bones only need to comprise
about 10% of a dog's total diet.

13) Dogs who eat a species appropriate raw diet derive so much more
nutrition from it, that their stools are much smaller and are more
infrequent than kibble fed dogs. Much less of a raw diet comes out as
waste. Kibble fed dogs have large, frequent stools, because much of
the plant matter is indigestible, and unusable by the dog.

You could start adding edible bones into Nuggets diet by offering him
bone in chicken breasts - not a lot of bone, but easily crunched and
digested. You could offer rabbit, small critter, soft bones. How about
turkey? Or a nice bone in pork shoulder or fresh ham?

You know that feeding kibble and raw at the same time won't allow the
dog to properly adapt to eating raw - it does take adjustment on the
part of the dog's digestive system, since it had to adjust to eating
kibble at first, when weaned from his mother's milk. I don't have an
answer for this; except maybe you can negotiate for a real raw trial -
switch over and feed an optimal diet on your terms, say for 3 months,
keep a log or journal, then evaluate and assess the differences in
Nugget's appearance and health, and promise to change back to kibble
if there's no improvement. ; )

If you can accomplish this, I suggest you be conservative - start with
whole or half chickens for a week or a few - then branch out slowly
into other proteins and body parts, one at a time for a few weeks
each. Don't worry about organs, just feed the gizzards and hearts that
come with the chickens, and add a tiny bit of the liver with meals.
When you start a new protein, cut out the organs for at lest the first
week, until you can assess Nugget's response to it.

Slippery Elm Bark Powder can help to get you through periods of runny
poos when you make a mistake with too much food, too much new food,
too much organ, or just an initial sloppy response to a new food. Just
sprinkle a tsp. on the meat.

I hope some of my post can help you, Brian and Nugget get on the same
page with raw feeding. You're welcome to print this out and let Brian
read it, if you think it'll help to convince him to trust your
knowledge that raw fed is best. Oh, and if he comes up with the "Its
too expensive to feed raw." excuse, I can post a nifty list to help
you with that problem, too.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

btw, tell your sis to back off - you don't need the pressure in your
relationship with Brian or to know what's best for Nugget. : )

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...>
wrote:
>
> Ok, here goes, I'm risking being "flamed" here but I need to be up
front so maybe someone can give me some good advice for the benefit of
our dog. I know totally raw is the best, just that my hands are tied
because Nugget was Brian's dog first before we started living together.
,snip>
> Sorry this is so long but I wanted you to have all the
background. I've written about this first but hadn't been up front
about still feeding kibble because I didn't want to be scolded because
I know better but it's not up to me.

> Ivette Casiano
> "Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Starting with chicken
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:59 am ((PDT))

Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...> wrote:
>
> Is it possible for a dog to become allergic to chicken after eating
it for 2 months with no adverse effects?
*****
Anything's possible.

But since most kibbles are based on or rely heavily on chicken, I would
expect any "allergy" to have been noticed long before the dog were to
eat the whole raw protein. It could be the dog is reacting to
enhancements, could be something else entirely. It's not common that a
dog would respond badly to the raw protein but not blink when eating
the processed version.

My guess is something else is going on. The easiest way to find out is
to switch entirely to a different protein (new all new) and see what
comes of the change.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Next new meat? (first week on raw)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:05 am ((PDT))

"eyed_blue" <eyed_blue@...> wrote:
>
> ps, getting confused over which bones to feed, some weight bearing
you
> can feed some you cant?
*****
Don't feed cow or horse legs, not for fun, not for nutrition. Feed
mutton legs only if they come equipped with lots of meat. Lamb and
goat bones are fine. Poultry bones are fine unless the birds are aged,
in which case feed the bones but don't expect full consumption
(although it's fine if such bones are eaten). Young pork bones are
quite edible; an older farm pig that's put some miles on its trotters
while perhaps being suspiciously parasitic may also have mighty dense
leg bones.

Easiest way to look at one's options, IMO, is to ask 1. how much weight
did those legs have to hold up and 2. under what conditions and 3. for
how long?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: loose stool and vomits?/convincing mother fully?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:15 am ((PDT))

"deep_ocean_of_sorrow" <deep_ocean_of_sorrow@...> wrote:
>> i didn't realize that timing was so important for food. that day was
> starting a little late, so the breakfast became a bit late. (all my
> fault, i know.)
*****
You've got it backwards!
Timing is NOT important. It's when you MAKE it important that the
results (which you have seen) can be disconcerting. Unless you are
feeding a diabetic dog or using time-sensitive meds, a clock really is
not part of a good raw diet.

If you stop relying on a schedule for feeding, your dogs will
absolutely let you off the hook. The clock is what has gotten you into
this fix; limiting the clock's influence to human concerns will get you
out of it.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Question about RAW feedings
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:19 am ((PDT))

Hi Betty,
My smallest two dogs are 5 and 3.5 lbs. I don't weigh my dogs food,
but I do feed chicken. I feed legs and thighs and the rest of the
chicken too. I often feed them whole chickens. I just cut one open
with kitchen shears, usually down the breast bone. I give it to them
on a towel. If two of the little dogs will eat peacefully together, I
let them eat together, or I put one in the bathroom and let him eat
his fill and then let another eat. If there is chicken left, I pick it
up and put it back in the fridge for next time. Letting them eat off
of a whole chicken is very good exercise and because it takes longer,
they seem more satisfied. I do have one that will eat 2 or 3 days
worth of food at a time. I just let her eat what she wants and skip a
day or two for her (gorge and fast). The others eat a meal and stop on
their own (self- regulating). I don't know if this helps or confused
you more. The great thing is, you can try different things til you
find what works best for you and your dogs. Denise

> since I have dogs that only weigh 8.4 lbs and 6 lbs I would o ly
given 1 1/2 ozs ot the bigger dogs and not quite 1 1/4 ozs to the 6
lb dog?? Do you all give chicken thighs and legs??
> Betty Hinson

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Question about RAW feedings
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:36 am ((PDT))

Hi Betty,

I have 1 dog that is 10lb and I give him a thigh for a meal.

I have cut apart and weighed out the meat in an average thigh
and it is about 4ozs of actual meat after removing
the bone & skin...

Both my dogs are small, the other is about 15lbs..

I find that smaller dogs, unless they are older and not active,
actually need more meat than recommended.

You could start with half a thigh, about 2oz of meat and adjust if
they seem to be getting skinny.

If they will eat the meat off the thigh with the bone in & skin on,
give it to them and remove it after they have eaten half of it and
save till the next meal......

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "betty hinson" <b_hinson@...>
wrote:

> since I have dogs that only weigh 8.4 lbs and 6 lbs I would o ly
given 1 1/2 ozs ot the bigger dogs and not quite 1 1/4 ozs to the 6
lb dog?? Do you all give chicken thighs and legs??
> Betty Hinson

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. ADMIN/Re:Alternative Tx for allergies?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:19 am ((PDT))

This topic will have a greater life span on RawChat, along with
homeopathy and other complementary/alternative methods.

Please take this to RawChat.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Someone mentioned pig something or other for...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:43 am ((PDT))

"angelsnoopers64859" <angelsnoopers64859@...> wrote:
>
> I have Old English Sheepdogs who are at 50 lbs. right now and I am
> looking to add 5-10 lbs onto them.
*****
So. Are they skinny ninnies or are you working to get them to the
typical carbo-loaded conformation ring look? You'll never get them
to that jelly roll appearance by feeding them a species appropriate
diet, since of course there's no significant carbs on the menu.

Feeding more food (to bowel tolerance) will put on weight though, so
feed larger, fattier meals and if necessary add more meals and reduce
exercise. Feed them according to what you would prefer them to
weigh, not what they currently weigh.

Pork and lamb come with lots of fat, so most any but the leanest cuts
will help. Skin-on pork shoulder, trotters, hocks, brisket bone,
riblets--pork will be easiest and cheapest to find. Lamb breasts are
fat repositories, so look for them, untrimmed.

Also consider beef chuck roasts and brisket (not corned!), untrimmed
and plenty fatty. You can also get beef and pork fat, which you can
add to every meal.

Don't pluck chicken or turkey fat, consider feeding domestic duck.

Try to introduce fat gently, to minimize digestive upset. Slow and
steady. You can have buff, healthy dogs through proper feeding, but
getting there quickly may not happen.

OT question about the OES. The breed is always described as having a
rolling gait. Is that a look that's been perpetuated perhaps by
carbokibble feeders, or does their physiology actually incline them
to that side to side effect? I wonder if a carbohydrate menu
produces a less loose appearance. Just curious.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: Processing Tripe
Posted by: "sphynxlover2" AST42701@aol.com sphynxlover2
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:02 am ((PDT))

The knives I have aren't very sharp. Should I purchase any type of
> special knife?

Hello Frankie, my BF is a chef, and he says the VERY first thing they
learn in culinary school is that a sharp knife is your friend in the
kitchen-a dull knife is an accident waiting to happen. I think anyone
who plans to feed a raw diet-especially to a small dog-should have a
couple of good knives. I like a good meat cleaver (preferably with a
plastic handle) and just a good sharp chef's knife. It's great if you
have a butcher block, but I just use a plain old cutting board. You
can use a damp cloth under your cutting board to keep it from sliding
around on a counter. And always know where your fingers are BEFORE you
make a cut! :)

Sorry I can't answer your questions about the tripe. I have very picky
eaters here who I know won't touch it so I don't even buy it.
Hopefully someone here can answer that question.
Rachelle and the safety patrol in MS LOL

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: Processing Tripe
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:26 am ((PDT))

> My only problem is I don't know the first thing about processing
> tripe. I feed green tripe, but it's already cleaned and cut or
> ground. What do I do with it? What kind of cutting equipment will I
> need for it? Can anyone tell me what I'll have to do? I don't even
> know what it's going to look like; I imagine it's going to smell pretty
> nasty. HELP! LOL
>
> Frankie
>

You can process it several ways. None are pretty.

With ten dogs, you might want to try giving them a whole one to start with. Make sure it's
well back from the house - say, next county even. ;-)) Cow stomachs are very heavy so
getting it to your yard might also be a problem. We use a wheelbarrow.
If you can get it into your yard, just go inside and pull the shades...oh, and lock the dog
door behind you. :-) Let them feast on it until it's gone. I've done that many many
times. You'll be left with one big pile of stomach grass when they are done, but it can be
spread on your garden to make a good fertilizer etc.

If you choose to go the cut up route, you might want to hold your nose and think of
England or something. It's not for the faint of heart. I'm tough but those cow stomachs
render me weak even.

Place the stomach (it weighs a ton) on plastic sheeting and with a big knife, you try and
seperate up the stomachs. This is not easy since all the stomach chambers attach to each
other in a very complex way. You might just want to empty out the large stomach by
shaking it and then cut it away from the other stomachs and bag it.
Do the same with the other chambers although, these are kinda complicated too. I leave
in quite a bit of the green matter in the smaller chambers but when thawing and feeding at
a later date, you will need to feed outside or somewhere where you can hose down the
area. These things are messy. Unground tripe is rubbery and the dogs tend to shake
them as they tear at them. You get the picture. You don't want green stuff stuck to your
walls.

In a nutshell, whole tripes are a lot of work but the dogs love them. The smell is horrible
and the work is dirty. I think it would even daunt that guy from Dirty Jobs!

I've also fed goat and sheep tripes and they are easy to process. So easy, it might be
feasible to try one or two of those first to get your feet wet so to speak. I've never fed
pig tripe so can't advise on that but maybe someone else has.
I feed goat and sheep tripes whole and the dogs eat the entire thing. NOthing is left. I
just dump them in the yard and lock the dogs out for a while. With a pack of dogs, they
demolish them in no time.
With cow tripes, they leave the main stomach contents of undigested grass but do eat the
entire other stomach chambers including the green matter.

In closing, use a very long sharp knife, a mask if you are squeamish and keep a good
sense of humor on hand. You are gonna need it.

Merril
Whippets

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13. eczema
Posted by: "Sarah" nananewfs@yahoo.com nananewfs
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:21 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE: SIGN YOUR MAIL!!!

This may sound stupid. Just picked up a rescue today that the owner
has had since 8 weeks old. She is now 4yo. Owner says she's had eczema
since a tiny pup. She itches constantly and is raw and red around her
neck almost like the skin wants to bleed. My Q is will raw diet take
care of this alone or do I need to Supplement w/Fish oil. I'm guessind
trying raw first and give it a couple of weeks then go to supplements.
But not Sure. Only been feeding raw for about 6 weeks.

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14a. Re: rawhide
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:21 am ((PDT))

Hi E & R,

Read some of the past posts on this site about rawhide chews.

They can cause digestive upset in some dogs and also impaction.

If your dogs love to chew, get them some natural, untreated pizzle
sticks......

Very safe and fully digestible & dogs love them!

Carol, Charkee & Moli ( I love them)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "esmolensky" <esmolensky@...>
wrote:
>
> does anyone recommend rawhide for recreational chewing purposes?
>
> Thank You,
> E & R

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

14b. Re: rawhide
Posted by: "Mary" halle4@comcast.net hallebest
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:40 am ((PDT))

Yes, there is plenty wrong with rawhides, please heed this information. Even if you have always fed your dogs rawhides and never had a problem, they are useless as far as nutrition. No need to take the risk however! An alternative = bully sticks.

Rawhides pose potential health risks. Rawhide can cause either vomiting or diarrhea from the many pieces still sitting undigested in the GI tract. Swallowing large pieces can lodge in the throat and cause choking. Large pieces can also scrap and irritate the throat and esophagus. Once in the stomach or intestinal tract, rawhide may create a physical obstruction. Some rawhide may create a risk of Salmonella or have an arsenic-based preservative.

Mary Smallwood
York, PA

----- Original Message -----
From: esmolensky
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 12:08 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] rawhide

does anyone recommend rawhide for recreational chewing purposes?
Are there any pros/cons with rawhide for rawfed dogs?
My dog loves rawhide and it keeps him busy for a long time, i was just
wondering if there are any negatives about it.

Thank You,
E & R

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

15a. Re: Alternative Tx for allergies?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:40 am ((PDT))

On Aug 12, 2007, at 4:22 AM, Cdandp2@aol.com wrote:

> Sorry, but I've known people who have had excellent results with
> this type
> of testing and treatment for allergies. This is energy work (not
> unlike
> homeopathy or reiki or many other energy healing approaches) so the
> term "allergy"
> has a little different meaning. I get a little nervous when
> people write
> off treatments as quackery or label alternative approaches as
> whacko without
> having direct experience. Homeopathy often "fails" and we don't
> call that
> whacko, we say the disease was too far in it's course or wrong
> remedy or
> something like that. When conventional methods fail we say
> similar things. Proof is
> in the results for me. One of the most highly respected
> alternative vets in
> the eastern states uses this approach. Who knows for sure??
>
> Carol for Spencer

And, just as with homeopathy, a great deal depends upon the
practitioner, and how they interpret what they find. Many homeopaths
use muscle testing to verify remedy choices. But my point was not
that the testing itself did not show "something", but rather how it
was understood, and, more importantly, that the use of the
combination remedies made all discussion of homeopathy impossible no
matter what the results of the testing.

And, yes, you don't have to look far to find someone ready to call
homeopathy wacko. But for my purposes I have sorted out the wacko
approaches from the valid ones, and the good elements of otherwise
wacko modalities as well. And for this case, there were too many
questionable elements for me to approve. My own opinion, of course.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

16a. Re: Anyone add vinegar to their dogs drinking water
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ohboyx3" <ohboyx3@...> wrote:
>
>
> Someone recently told me I could add a tiny bit of vinegar to my dogs
> water.
>
> Danae for Zorreaux

Hi Danae,

I believe that's apple cider vinegar that you're supposed to add. I
believe that it keeps the water clean, i.e., without that green mold. I
have birds and they're supposed to be getting it in their water but
I've never done it. It's apple cider vinegar, though.

Silvina and the pugs

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

17a. Re: Pig Feet and glucosamine
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:40 am ((PDT))

> You might want to join DogHealth or even RawChat (sister lists on
> Yahoo) to dicuss your options; both lists are better suited than
> Rawfeeding for the topic.
>
> Offhand I recommend a good raw diet and a salmon oil (or fish body
> oil) supplement. After that, my heavens I just don't know. I was
> giving my seniors a gl/ch tripe strength combo, plus MSM and the
> salmon oil, but I've no clue at all whether these would work for
> other dogs.
> Chris O
>

Thanks Chris,

I think I will join DogHealth (i'm already a member of RawChat). I will
be switching my senior as soon as his k**ble is gone and need to
supplement him. BTW, Violeta seems to be gulping less :)

Silvina

Messages in this topic (21)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

18. Oxtail-happy,Elk -so tiring patient match of 1 hour plus
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:40 am ((PDT))

Hi,everyone. Yestreday was my groceryshopping day and,I found big piece of Ox tail on shelves of meat department area.

I know that up to now,every time I asked about items I was looking for, the answer comes back as either "That is all we have", or" No,we don't carry it",but yestrday.. I found whole Ox tail when asked about if there were any whole ox tail back the counter!!

I was not intended to look for that in particular but since they had some packages out and that looked fresh and was curious.

The tail was about 4lb. It was not as cheap as chicken meat but, since it looked so good so,I got it.

My question is that,I do not remember if I saw any posts about edible bone or hard to crack category bone for tail.

when I look at the bone in package on the shelves,when you touch it, it feels bit soft,but is it category of feumer bone;better to avoid letting dog eat bone?or is it ok category bone?

In case you wonder, I got it from Giant in fredericksburg VA. so,if you shop there,try asking that and you may get lucky!

But Beef anything is real big ;Beef Tongue whole weigh around 3lb and tail 4 lb heart roughly 3lb ...Cow is real big animal!

By the way,yesterday,human had pizza which made my dog to protest not to eat her Elk Rib and whine for smell of good pizza.

Yesterday,husband was at home so,we sat inside the kitchen ,placed our meat mat for her andput her meal on it.My dog sat near us,looking towards pizza box in the living room,whine.

When we say "go eat your meal",she trott out and trot all around kitchen lick the meat,and come back to us,sit and stare.

She repeated this thousands time and then, she laied on side looking other way not us on mat.

Finally,she sat up and went to meat,lick it and back to my husbands and lay asking for pet.

After repeating this many times, when she touch the meat,my husband pet her and when she stopped eating or touching,he stopped petting and,finally she got into rib and finished half meal.

Other half of meal of rib was on mat still, and she did all stuff she did repeatedly,protested not to eat and,just lay on side..wewondered if she got full or still prostesting for pizza.I was close to take it away and no goat today which her favorite meat.

Well,she afterall ate everything but all these protesting last 1 hour plus!

she is such a persisten/hard-wired dog!

We really needed lots of patient last night.

I do not know if pizza triggered this act or Elk itself is not tasting as good as chicken or what but it was so tiring night.

When I pulled chicken feet to praise her,she was dashing to me so,I do not think she was prostesting for pizza.She was happy to get chicken feeet.

Yesterday was3rd night of Elk rib,but second night,she ate meat first andshe crunch down bone without any problems and no prostesting or wahtsoever.

When I give Elk again,I will see more if she really does not like it much or not.

But if I keep feeding what she not so much liking kind of meat, she gets to like the meat later after getting used to meat taste??

yassy

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11901

There are 19 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. rawhide
From: esmolensky

2a. Starting with chicken
From: Ivette Casiano
2b. Re: Starting with chicken
From: cmhausrath

3. Starting raw feeding
From: Ivette Casiano

4a. Re: raw and kibble mix
From: Ivette Casiano

5a. Re: Question about RAW feedings
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

6a. Re: Next new meat? (first week on raw)
From: eyed_blue
6b. Re: Next new meat? (first week on raw)
From: eyed_blue

7a. Re: loose stool and vomits?/convincing mother fully?
From: deep_ocean_of_sorrow
7b. Re: loose stool and vomits?/convincing mother fully?
From: cmhausrath

8a. Re: Processing Tripe
From: doguenanny

9a. Re: Anyone add vinegar to their dogs drinking water
From: Cdandp2@aol.com
9b. Re: Anyone add vinegar to their dogs drinking water
From: Nathalie Poulin

10a. Alternative Tx for allergies?
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

11a. New to rawfeeding-need help!
From: jennifer_ricotta
11b. Re: New to rawfeeding-need help!
From: Nathalie Poulin
11c. Re: New to rawfeeding-need help!
From: jennifer_ricotta

12a. Re: Rawfeeding Recipes
From: Nathalie Poulin

13a. Re: Someone mentioned pig something or other for...
From: angelsnoopers64859

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. rawhide
Posted by: "esmolensky" esmolensky@yahoo.com esmolensky
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:33 pm ((PDT))

does anyone recommend rawhide for recreational chewing purposes?
Are there any pros/cons with rawhide for rawfed dogs?
My dog loves rawhide and it keeps him busy for a long time, i was just
wondering if there are any negatives about it.

Thank You,
E & R

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Starting with chicken
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:02 pm ((PDT))

Is it possible for a dog to become allergic to chicken after eating it for 2 months with no adverse effects?

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Starting with chicken
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:41 am ((PDT))

Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...> wrote:

> Is it possible for a dog to become allergic to chicken after eating
it for 2 months with no adverse effects?

Possible? I imagine so. Most anything is possible.

Probable, on the other hand? I think not. My personal opinion, from
my own experience & 4 years on-and-off of reading & contributing to
this list, is that people LEAP to assume that something is a food
allergy. In reality their problems can be more readily explained
some other way, but people like to feel that they're in control --
that they're doing something to fix perceived problems, and that
their solutions are effective. So a bit of loose stool is seen as a
PROBLEM, and the last meal fed is blamed.

An OT personal story, since I can never seem to help digressing:
about 5 years ago, on a normal workday afternoon, just after eating
my normal lunch (that I'd eaten a zillion times before, and a zillion
times since), I had a full-blown allergic reaction. As in
anaphylaxis, 7 hours in the ER, etc. I had a zillion allergy tests
done: zip. I'm not allergic -- at least not testably -- to
ANYTHING. The doctor said it was a fluke, wouldn't happen again. It
did, exactly one month later, exact same thing (after a different,
but very common, lunch). The doctor had no idea what to say. And in
the five years since, it's never happened again.

If I have a point, it's that sometimes the body reacts in weird ways -
- it might mean something, but most of the time we don't know WHAT it
means. With raw feeding (to get back on topic), most issues can be
traced back to some kind of human error, often an excess of
enthusiasm.

If I understand correctly, this dog has been fed ki**le at least once
a day during this whole raw-feeding experiment. In that event, the
raw chicken would not be high on the list of things I would blame for
digestive upset.

-- sandy & griffin (neither of us allergic to anything)

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3. Starting raw feeding
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:03 pm ((PDT))

When you say, start with chicken for about a week, then introduce another type of protein, do you mean feed the other protein every day for a week or just once to see how he tolerates it and feed chicken the rest of the days?

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: raw and kibble mix
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:03 pm ((PDT))

<<...Would you really be so adament about feeding the dog
raw if it was unhealthy?

I don't know what else to tell you, but I'd be really
frustrated with this if I were you....>>>

Tell me about it. I'm so frustrated because any deveation from what he's used to seeing in his dog throw's him for a loop. He is an extremely stubborn person and thinks that dogs should have what humans have and be like humans. If there's loose stool he thinks there's something wrong right away and it has to be fixed.
What's ironic is that he had a Doberman who had health problems and had to be put down at the age of 9. He fed her kibble from the time he got her at 2 yrs. to the day she died. I told him that there must be a better way but since this is new to him and he doesn't do well with new stuff and his Vet (because, of course, they know everything,lol) hasn't told him to feed raw, then it's a problem for him.
This is why I'm asking for all your advice and references. I will go to that site, Nathalie, thank you, and try to show it to him. (notice I said "try").

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Question about RAW feedings
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:03 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/12/2007 12:33:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
linoleum5017 writes:

I watch a min pin, (on k***le) who is about 8 lbs..... if she were
permitted, she'd make short work of a thigh bone, I'm sure.

_______
I'm sure she would, too. I have cats in that weight range that make short
work of a thigh bone and also of a chicken leg bone. :)

Lynda

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Next new meat? (first week on raw)
Posted by: "eyed_blue" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:31 am ((PDT))

Hi chris, thanks for the tip,at the moment I have fed him Mutton Flank
(picked the pieces that had 50% bone and a lambs neck (that had loads
of meat on it) other than that he has had the blocks of chicken mince
with ground bone, also had wings, legs and breast.

I gave him a tiny amount of ox liver the other day. He has also had a
little bit apple a couple of times as a treat.

Natalie

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Next new meat? (first week on raw)
Posted by: "eyed_blue" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:31 am ((PDT))

ps, getting confused over which bones to feed, some weight bearing you
can feed some you cant?
natalie

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: loose stool and vomits?/convincing mother fully?
Posted by: "deep_ocean_of_sorrow" deep_ocean_of_sorrow@yahoo.com deep_ocean_of_sorrow
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:31 am ((PDT))

oh wow, thank you so much, sandy.(and of course everyone else here too
the replied.)

i didn't realize that timing was so important for food. that day was
starting a little late, so the breakfast became a bit late. (all my
fault, i know.)

and i think i gave my dog some beef liver that night too....so that
explains why.

anyways,

i got freaked cause my mom isn't fully convinced with the raw foods
diet. (it is sooo annoying.)
when he gets something like loose stools or throws up like he did, she
goes and tells me, " maybe we should switch back to kibbles. or at least
1/2 kibbles??" and of course, i say "NO! kibbles are bad for dogs!!",
etc etc. it sort of sounds like a threat. i just think she's lazy. XP

in the end, i gave her some printed page(s) of whats in dog food (crap..
crap and more crap.) and what we should be feeding our dogs (that part
didn't really go directly to raw foods, just said about healthy natural
foods thats not kibbles--kinda thing.) and it had to be in japanese,
cause she can't read english (she's lived here for soooo long and she
doesn't even try.) so there wasn't much good information about it... i
only found like, 2 pages that was worth reading through and printing out
for her.

she's still not convinced fully. she thinks that kibbles are complete
and gives our dog nutrients and vegetables that are "needed". i say that
i do give some veggies (not forcefully, i put some carrot chunks on the
meat, if he doesn't want to eat it, he won't. i'm not too strict about
it, and its not a everyday thing. only sometimes. ) and my mom says that
he needs more.

gosh, i'm so sorry its long. but how can i fully convince my mother? any
information has to be in japanese (i'm really really sorry for this very
incovinience...) or something translatable that i can tell my mom.

thanks,

Kate
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cmhausrath" <cmhausrath@...> wrote:
>
> "deep_ocean_of_sorrow" deep_ocean_of_sorrow@ wrote:
>
> > my dog is recently having vomits in the mornings (before his
> > breakfast... so i think its something from his dinner)
> >
> > and having really loose stools...
> <snip>
> > i don't know whats wrong, please help!
>
>
> First: take a deep breath.
>
> Dogs are not burdened by our human judgments about being "sick" or
> about tossing back up something that's not agreeing with their
> stomach. Chances are -- if your dog is acting normally -- he's not
> upset about this. YOU being upset about it doesn't do either of you
> any good, either. Chances are also that there's nothing
> really "wrong," here, just his digestive system adjusting to his new
> diet and to his expectations of mealtime.
>
> Someone's already pointed out that if you regularly feed at one set
> time, your dog will get used to that and will get geared up to eat AT
> that particular time. If food doesn't appear, all the bile he's
> generated in expectation will get irritating, and he'll toss it up.
> No biggie, but avoidable just by mixing up mealtime a bit.
>
> Newbie dogs -- and only a month is still fairly new -- also sometimes
> toss up undigested bits of bone. Even oldbie dogs like mine will
> toss up some bone if there's more in a meal than they can comfortably
> handle. Could it be you're feeding more bone than necessary?
>
> As for loose stools -- well, what's he eating? Variety in = variety
> out -- remember that you're not going to see identical ki**le-fed poo
> every time your dog goes. Bone-heavy meals = hard crumbly stool;
> meatymeat meals = less-formed stool; lots of fat or organs (or
> whatever your dog finds "rich") = loose stool.
>
> All just not a big deal, if it's appropriate to what he's been eating
> in the last few days.
>
> -- sandy & griffin
>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: loose stool and vomits?/convincing mother fully?
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:54 am ((PDT))

"deep_ocean_of_sorrow" <deep_ocean_of_sorrow@...> wrote:

> i didn't realize that timing was so important for food. that day was
> starting a little late, so the breakfast became a bit late.

Timing ISN'T so important, unless we make it so. Truth be told, my
own dog is in quite a routine for the morning, what with me trying to
get to work again -- he always seems to find the familiar routine
comforting, and he doesn't get worked up wondering if he gets to come
along when he knows I'm getting ready for work. So he eats at a
fairly set time in the morning. But if you have a bit more
flexibility, as even I do in the evenings, mix up the mealtime. Feed
at 7 one day, 6:30 the next, 7:30 the day after. If you're in a rush
and can't really spare the time for a meal, skip it. The less the
dog knows to expect food, the less upset he'll be by a break in
routine, or a late morning.

> i just think she's lazy. XP

Most people are, at least about their pets. I try to remember that
although my dog is tremendously important to me, and I would go to
any expense to keep him healthy and happy, most people have pets for
their own benefit, without giving a lot of thought to what the dog
(or whatever) needs. It's just up to you to be that much stronger an
advocate for your dog!

> how can i fully convince my mother? any
> information has to be in japanese (i'm really really sorry for this
very
> incovinience...) or something translatable that i can tell my mom.

Have you read all the myths on http://www.rawfed.com?

There are
pictures on some of those pages, and hopefully you could translate
most of the stuff on those pages. (If you need help with particular
words or phrases, you might ask on RawChat if Yassy or Ginny could
help -- I believe they both speak Japanese.) Also, if just plain
pictures help, have you shown her http://rawfeddogs.net?

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Processing Tripe
Posted by: "doguenanny" Dixie4911@aol.com doguenanny
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:31 am ((PDT))

Hi Penny,

Thanks for the quick response. Just wondering, how hard is it to cut
up? The knives I have aren't very sharp. Should I purchase any type of
special knife? Does the vet do anything with it before you get it?
Do you get the whole stomach? What does it look like? I really don't
know what to expect when I start cutting it up. I've gutted and
cleaned deer for the dogs, so I'm not sqeamish about this, I'm just
trying to figure out how to go about getting it all cut up and packed
away in the freezer.

Thanks,

Frankie

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Anyone add vinegar to their dogs drinking water
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:32 am ((PDT))

Another possibility is that your dog has a yeast problem or candida and that
the vinegar (but please use apple cider instead of the white distilled) may
be balancing the PH to address an imbalance, yes? The runny eyes and
discolored teeth are consistent with that possibility. If this is the problem the
condition should be aggravated by sweets/fruit/grains (which you're not
feeding so you can't tell) and sometimes by dampness.

Carol for Spencer

p.s. Apple cider vinegar is not a toxin. I take it in warm water every
morning as a digestive stimulant and PH balancer and I also rinse Spencer's meat
in it. And yes, it is an antibacterial agent as well I believe.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Anyone add vinegar to their dogs drinking water
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:43 am ((PDT))

If he's not getting enough bone, that could
DEFINITELY be why his tartar isn't going away. Scrap
the vinegar and try some bones first.
If that helps than you don't need to keep using
vinegar.

Nathalie

> > > They are only getting raw chicken,pork, cornish
> hens,
> liver,hearts,salmon,chicken eggs,sardines.
> It may be that he is just not getting enough bone
> action

Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Alternative Tx for allergies?
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:33 am ((PDT))

Sorry, but I've known people who have had excellent results with this type
of testing and treatment for allergies. This is energy work (not unlike
homeopathy or reiki or many other energy healing approaches) so the term "allergy"
has a little different meaning. I get a little nervous when people write
off treatments as quackery or label alternative approaches as whacko without
having direct experience. Homeopathy often "fails" and we don't call that
whacko, we say the disease was too far in it's course or wrong remedy or
something like that. When conventional methods fail we say similar things. Proof is
in the results for me. One of the most highly respected alternative vets in
the eastern states uses this approach. Who knows for sure??

Carol for Spencer

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. New to rawfeeding-need help!
Posted by: "jennifer_ricotta" ricottaj@mac.com jennifer_ricotta
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:10 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!

Hello everyone. I've been feeding my dog raw chicken for a few weeks now without bones to
ease her into it since she has such fierce digestive issues (she even throws up water if she
drinks too much). Surprisingly, she's doing great, considering we tried the raw chicken
patties earlier this year and she would vomit for 2 days after! Here are my questions:
1-Where are you feeding the dog? I obviously can't have her running around the house with
a raw chicken.
2-How do I know if she is crunching the bones enough? I fed her bones for the first time last
night. I think she would have swallowed the chicken neck whole if I didn't stop her. I hand
fed her the neck and a wing. I feel like she barely crunched them, though no problems yet.
She has horribly crooked teeth and is missing one of the large sharp incisors from birth. So
you understand the severity, when she was a pup, the vet asked me if she could eat! She's
seven now though and has no problem eating. Also, I gave her a large lamb bone to knaw on
last week and she did fine. Should I be concerned?
3-To solve the above two things, should I just grind the bones with the meat? Would it be
good for her if I did decide to do that and occasionally give her a large bone to knaw on for
her teeth? Also, is there a home meat grinder that can do the job?
4-Lastly, what bones are you giving your dog? I have a 50 lb. pit bull/boxer. I've read
chicken backs, wings, breast (but not drumstick?) but what about the lamb or beef? What
other meat options should I consider and which bones?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: New to rawfeeding-need help!
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:31 am ((PDT))

For a 50lbs

> 1-Where are you feeding the dog? I obviously can't
> have her running around the house with
> a raw chicken.

Lots of people use vinyl table clothes or a shower
curtain. I just throw the meat on the floor in the
kitchen and clean it up when she's done with a few
squirts of hydrogen peroxide mixed with water.

> 2-How do I know if she is crunching the bones
> enough? I fed her bones for the first time last
> night. I think she would have swallowed the chicken
> neck whole if I didn't stop her. I hand
> fed her the neck and a wing. I feel like she barely
> crunched them, though no problems yet.

How big is this dog? Usually chicken necks/backs/wings
are too bony for bigger dogs unless they are attached
to a whole bird. Try bigger, like a whole chicken.
Dogs don't really chew, they bite off enough to get
down their throats and swallow. That's why it's better
to give them things that are AS BIG or BIGGER than
their head. It forces them to chew a bit more.

> She has horribly crooked teeth and is missing one of
> the large sharp incisors from birth. So
> you understand the severity, when she was a pup, the
> vet asked me if she could eat! She's
> seven now though and has no problem eating. Also, I
> gave her a large lamb bone to knaw on
> last week and she did fine. Should I be concerned?

If she did fine, why should you be concerned? There
are lots of people on this list who have dogs with
only a few teeth who do just fine on raw.

> 3-To solve the above two things, should I just grind
> the bones with the meat? Would it be
> good for her if I did decide to do that and
> occasionally give her a large bone to knaw on for
> her teeth? Also, is there a home meat grinder that
> can do the job?

Don't waste your time or your money. Chewing/gnawing
on bones also helps your dog psychologically. It's
challenging and will make for a happier dog. Bones are
healthy. If she's been doing fine on them, or if she's
fine with a lamb bone then I don't see a problem
feeding her chicken or any other bones (except weight
baring bones like beef).
Ripping meat off a bone is what dogs were meant to do,
crooked teeth or no. It helps start the digestion and
is incredibly stimulating, not to mention the benefits
for the teeth.

> 4-Lastly, what bones are you giving your dog? I
> have a 50 lb. pit bull/boxer. I've read
> chicken backs, wings, breast (but not drumstick?)
> but what about the lamb or beef? What
> other meat options should I consider and which
> bones?

Chick backs/wings/necks are TOO BONY for a dog that
size. Get your dog a whole chicken! Your dog needs
MEAT.
My dog is about 50lbs and I give her lamb shoulder
(it's huge and takes her a few days to get through
it), turkey breast (bone-in), goat necks, beef necks,
pork roast, beef leg muscle (no bone) and fatty meat
scraps from the butcher. I also feed beef liver and
beef heart in small quantities. Not to mention the
drumstick bones that she steals from the cats.
Get your dog some MEATY MEAT. Pork is usually a good
one, and most dogs love it. If you have some in your
area (grocery store or butcher), you could try getting
a whole rabbit (my dog did not like that at all).
You want to get a whole variety or different meats
from different sources.
Chicken, turkey, cornish hen, pork, beef, lamb, goat,
rabbit, deer (if you can find it) etc.
Think WHOLE prey.

Nathalie

Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11c. Re: New to rawfeeding-need help!
Posted by: "jennifer_ricotta" ricottaj@mac.com jennifer_ricotta
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:45 am ((PDT))

Thanks so much. The chicken parts that I was feeding her were from a cut up whole chicken
that I bought. I'll just give her the whole thing next time! Thanks for putting me at ease
about the bone thing---i'm a nervous newbie, what can i say! I'll skip the meat grinder and
stick with it! I appreciate your help!
Jennifer

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: Rawfeeding Recipes
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:47 am ((PDT))

Chicken bones are one of the most edible bones you can
give your dog. Puppies can handle the bones. Maybe
don't cut it up next time, give your pup a chance to
really get in there. Wings and necks are pretty bony
themselves.

Nathalie

> I have a question about this. I bought a whole
> chicken tonight to do just that but when I cut the
> breastbone, the bones seemed very sharp for a puppy,
> although I do give wings, necks and legs. I cut off
> the meat and decided next time to buy a cornish hen
> and just give her the whole thing.
>
> Patty P
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers
> from someone who knows.
> Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: Someone mentioned pig something or other for...
Posted by: "angelsnoopers64859" angelsnoopers64859@yahoo.com angelsnoopers64859
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:37 am ((PDT))

I have Old English Sheepdogs who are at 50 lbs. right now and I am
looking to add 5-10 lbs onto them.
Thanks. Valerie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "angelsnoopers64859"
> <angelsnoopers64859@> wrote:
> >
> > putting on weight. What was it?
> *****
> Heck, pig anything should be good for weight gain, as long as your
dog
> can comfortably digest the fat. Except for the leanest cuts that are
> being promoted by the Pork Council as comparable to chicken, pork is
a
> fatty meat.
>
> What size dog do you have and what kind of weight gain are you
looking
> for?
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------