Feed Pets Raw Food

Tuesday, July 24, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11838

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: Maiakitas@aol.com
1b. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: Morledzep@aol.com

2a. Re: Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
From: chele519
2c. Re: Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
From: costrowski75

3.1. Re: itchy skin
From: LaUrA
3.2. Re: itchy skin
From: Sandee Lee

4a. cleanliness
From: havanese1@bellsouth.net
4b. Re: cleanliness
From: magolin0328
4c. Re: cleanliness
From: Catherine

5a. Re: Sample Meal Plan??
From: linoleum5017
5b. Re: Sample Meal Plan??
From: Nathalie Poulin

6. A nervous newbie with some specific challenges
From: jbronwen

7.1. Intro
From: Michele Anderson

8a. Re: Having issues changing to new protein
From: Nathalie Poulin

9a. I second the request for a Sample Meal Plan!
From: Pam Vojtas
9b. Re: I second the request for a Sample Meal Plan!
From: costrowski75

10.1. Re: recreational bones
From: Nathalie Poulin
10.2. Re: recreational bones
From: cypressbunny

11a. Re: Poe loves her bones...
From: Nathalie Poulin

12a. Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: cresco299
12b. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: cypressbunny
12c. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: cresco299
12d. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: cypressbunny

13. Last nights disaster
From: Lisa Hope


Messages
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1a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "Maiakitas@aol.com" Maiakitas@aol.com maiakitas
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:42 pm ((PDT))

Megan,

I will see how that works. I will freeze anything the second I buy it, except
for their current meal. I am getting tired and poor from throwing away so
much meat. :o) I'm almost afraid to buy a freezer. Who knows what they might
think if food gets freezer burned.

Keep your finger crossed for me. Any other suggestions are always
appreciated.

Regards,
Carla


**************************************
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Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:37 pm ((PDT))


In a message dated 7/24/2007 4:14:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Maiakitas@aol.com writes:

Does microwaving on defrost briefly alter the nutritional content of the meat
if it is still partially frozen? I know there has to be a way to get this
right.



Carla,

NEVER.. and i mean.. NEVER use the microwave to defrost meat. or any other
food for that matter. the Defrost setting on the microwave still uses the same
full strength that it uses on high, it just turns it off now and then and
counts time in between bursts of power.. and the food is getting COOKED. And the
bones are becoming brittle and losing nutritional value with every burst.

We do, however, use the microwave as a food safe.. it has a locking door that
counter surfing wolves can't open.. means i get to thaw meat for me to eat
and actually get to eat it.. lol.

i don't cater to dog tastes.. at least not very much.. if they don't eat what
is available they don't eat.. and often don't eat the next day either..

I thaw meat every other day, if it feeds the dogs two days or one makes no
difference.. i make exceptions for the pups, but even all the pups are over 1
year now.

to thaw meat i put it in a drip tray (extra large cookie sheet, or a plastic
tub) on top of the freezer. Sometimes it sits there for a day before it gets
fed because i put too much out and some needs to wait for the next day. i
gave up keeping wolf chow in the fridge.. took up too much room and folks kept
ignoring it till it smelled up my fridge.

so the dogs often eat smelly or not so fresh food.. no one turns up their
noses. I have a couple dogs that refuse to eat duck, and some that refuse
rabbit, and one that will avoid fish if there is other food available. but no one
refuses food of any kind just because it's a little ripe.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:51 pm ((PDT))

"chele519" <chele519@...> wrote:
> Bone in pork shoulder is .89/lb. The only boneless pork that I can
get
> that is cheap is the sirloin steaks those are thin slices, like
1/4"
> but the butcher will sell them to me before they are sliced.
*****
Depending on your location, you might be able to get better prices on
other pork parts from a meat wholealer or an ethnic market. "Long
feet" which are pretty much what they sound like may not cost much
more and are excellent entertainments as well as food.


When I was giving
> her the smaller stuff, it wasn't enough to express her anal glands.
*****
Clearly the pork shoulder bone is not processing whole through her,
so the success of the bone would come from bone amount. A duck
carcass with adequate added meat should produce the same result, no?
What am I missing?


> For the first few days, should I grind some meat or just cut up a
> roast into chunks?
*****
Either way should produce meals that don't require tooth interaction;
whichever is easier for you and won't inspire stupid gulping.
Nutritionally she's fine without a RMB.
Chris O


Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

I'll check out the ethnic markets. I think there are some about 1/2 hr
away. The meat wholesaler I found had the shoulders at the same price.
They mostly do chicken and turkey so pork was hard to get.

I'm don't know why the duck didn't work before. She's been rawfed
since Feb 06. I started with pork shoulder with chunks cut off and fed
along with the duck. Then went to feeding the shoulders sliced into
big slabs, then whole. It was only went I went to feeding them whole
that I she was able to express the anals on her own. She was still
eating a whole pork shoulder over 3-4 days but in different form. I
have no idea why that should have made a difference but it did.
I'll just have to wait and see how it goes and then go from there.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
> Clearly the pork shoulder bone is not processing whole through her,
> so the success of the bone would come from bone amount. A duck
> carcass with adequate added meat should produce the same result,
no?
> What am I missing?


Messages in this topic (8)
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2c. Re: Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:35 pm ((PDT))

"chele519" <chele519@...> wrote:
> I'll just have to wait and see how it goes and then go from there.
> Michele
*****
Yup.
It's all anyone can do, really.
We can try to micro-manage every nuance, we can get so involved in
crossing our eyes and dotting our Ts that analysis paralysis sets in
and we find ourselves dumbstruck, overwhelmed.

And yet...all we can do is wait and see how it goes.
Chris O


Messages in this topic (8)
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3.1. Re: itchy skin
Posted by: "LaUrA" laurasue17@hotmail.com angel_2_u_23
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:12 pm ((PDT))

Okay, but specifically what foods should I add to their diets?
Thanks-
Laura
Proud Mommy to Miss Samantha (9 years old going on 16! LOL!!) and step mom to Heather -17, Nikki - 14 and Michelle - 8 - the most beautiful girls in the world!!!!!
Mom to furbabies: Snoopy (male - neutered - 10 month old - pit mix - 60lbs.) and Zoey (super smart hearing impaired female - spayed - 6 month old - pit mix - approx. 40lbs.)


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Messages in this topic (46)
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3.2. Re: itchy skin
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:00 pm ((PDT))

A few suggestions might be beef heart, cheeks, brisket, pork roasts of any
kind, turkey or chicken breasts (or whole birds) rather than necks and
backs...anything with lots of meat!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "LaUrA" <laurasue17@hotmail.com>


> Okay, but specifically what foods should I add to their diets?

Messages in this topic (46)
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4a. cleanliness
Posted by: "havanese1@bellsouth.net" havanese1@bellsouth.net schnauzers1015
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:13 pm ((PDT))

Good morning,

I have a question regarding cleanliness. We all know that raw meat has germs
that can make humans sick. When you feed raw to your dogs how do you care for
their beards, leg furnishings, etc. that get raw meat debris on them? I have
three Miniature Schnauzers and one Silky Terrier. I am getting another Silky
next week. I kiss them a lot and they are always in my face. I don't want to
get sick. These are not only my babies and sleep in bed with me, but they are
also show dogs. Show dogs need to have clean, healthy coats.

I have not begun the raw feeding yet as I am going away for two weeks and want
to wait until I am back home and we are all comfortable with what is going on.
I will be starting the raw feeding at the end of August. Before I begin I want
to be completely prepared and that includes keeping my dogs clean. Years ago
when I fed raw I would wash their faces and paws after each meal with warm
water and shampoo, then rinse, rinse, rinse and dry. This takes time, it was
not too bad when I only had two dogs...now with five... My question, is there
a better way to keep them sparkle city clean that doesn't take an hour out of
my busy day?

Thanx for any advice you care to share.
Dolores
havanese1@bellsouth.net


Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: cleanliness
Posted by: "magolin0328" maggie.taylor@artlover.com magolin0328
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:07 pm ((PDT))

I don't do anything to clean Diesel unless he gets particularly gunky.
Even then I just wipe his paws or face down with a wet (water only)
paper towel. He sleeps with (or on...) me. I've been doing the raw
thing for a year now and haven't gotten sick yet.

I wipe the kitchen floor with diluted white vinegar if something
obvious gets on it. I use hydrogen peroxide if anything gets on the
carpet. Other than that I don't really worry about it.

At most with bearded dogs I'd wipe them down with a wet (water only)
paper towel to get any gunk off. Otherwise I wouldn't worry about it.
But that's just me.

Maggie
Diesel, SDIT

Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: cleanliness
Posted by: "Catherine" eraser426@hotmail.com nihilumabesse
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:49 pm ((PDT))

I keep a raw fed standard poodle in full coat. She does not make a
mess of herself. I've got friends with standard schnauzers that feed
raw and they don't have a problem with the beards. Most dogs will
clean themselves off if it is necessary. I don't worry about germs my
dog sleeps in my bed. On the off chance that her face or legs get
dirty from really getting into her meal I will wipe them off with
waterless shampoo or just plain water.

Catherine

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Sample Meal Plan??
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

Ha, your 'little guy?' I feel a song coming on:

Chicken, chicken , chicken in the morning, chicken in the evening,
Chicken, chicken, chicken 'til the sun comes down!

Gizzards, gizzards....

You get the idea, I'm sure. There is little menu to plan, Susan. One
thing I would say, though, is that chicken is kind of bony, and when
you're feeding that amount, you might want to throw in some boneless
chicken breasts so he gets adequate amounts of meaty meat. (Or
gizzards, which are much cheaper.)

Again, I yield to Bill Carnes, who put together a simple 'getting
started' essay. Wish I had the link for that, but I keep forgetting
to save it.

Bill? Can you do the honors once again?

Lynne


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "shutch12001" <ghutch1@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Could someone help me with a sample meal plan for my Black Russian
> Terrier. Sebastian is 10 months old and approx. 120lb.
>
I don't want my little guy unhappy.

Messages in this topic (7)
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5b. Re: Sample Meal Plan??
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:06 pm ((PDT))


Necks and backs are WAY too bony for a dog that size!
GIVE MORE MEAT!!
Try a whole chicken to start, and see how he does. If
he doesn't finish, then just put the rest away for the
next meal.
Eventually you can move to chunks of
pork/goat/lamb/beef.
You want to feed pieces that are as big as, or bigger
than his head. This helps stop gulping/inhaling and
encourages tearing and shearing.

Nathalie


Sebastian is 10 months old and approx.
> 120lb.
> I started him on raw meat two days ago, feeding one
> chicken neck and
> one back in the morning and two necks and backs in
> the evening. He
> seems to be hungry and was sick (just a bit) twice
> last night.

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Messages in this topic (7)
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6. A nervous newbie with some specific challenges
Posted by: "jbronwen" bronwenjones@sympatico.ca jbronwen
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:05 pm ((PDT))

*** Mod Note: please sign your posts ***

Hi,
I've been breaking into rawfeeding with my ~8 yr old, 35 lb English
Cocker for several weeks now, with some advice from my vet and
resources she provided (namely Dr. Pitcairn's book). The primary
reason I began is because Satchel's teeth are very plaque and tartar
covered despite being cleaned less than a year ago. He's a rescue
who came to me 2 years ago with very few teeth. He's missing almost
all molars on one side, several molars on the other and two top
incisors.

He has never chewed commercial 'chew bone' type bones - it hurts him
and he cries. He managed kibble fine by crunching it between his few
lower molars and upper gum. I've started raw by offering pieces of
chicken breast (the grissly end), pieces of chicken back and pieces
of turkey neck. He does NOT chew them. He just scarfs them whole.
After eating a chicken back piece he threw up the next morning -
yellow bile plus a clean sharp back bone. It makes me therefore
extremely nervous offering bigger pieces that I want him to chew, for
fear he will just try two chews and then swallow. (He did tonight
with a larger 3" piece of turkey neck).

Second specific challenge Satchel has: I have to feed him several
times per day, esp. breaking up evening meal into two or he wakes at
5 am vomitting bile from 'sour stomach'. It improved when I split
the evening meal, but now that we're going raw and he digests his
food even faster it's returned.

I'm also concerned about the cost. I did try a commercial product
for a few weeks but at $4/lb I can't afford that. What are my best
options, given his chewing issues?

Should I get meat and bone ground at a butchers? Buy my own
grinder? Give boneless and add bonemeal. I have some Solid Gold
bonemeal as well as an additive called Missing Link.

Of course, chewing through bone and cartilage is why the vet
recommended this approach in the first place, to clean his teeth! I
feel like I'm failing before I've even begun! Sorry about the
length. I thought I should present his whole 'picture' for the best
advice.

Thanks


Messages in this topic (1)
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7.1. Intro
Posted by: "Michele Anderson" crunchymommy@gmail.com psycho_loggie
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:05 pm ((PDT))

I thought I should post an intro :) My family is about to acquire a
puppy. She is a chihuahua mix with some terrier and schnauzer thrown in.
Very cute dog. My son(4) has named her George.

We are getting her this weekend. She has been fed kibble and canned food
for the most part although I got my sil to let the puppies have some raw
chicken one day which they DEVOURED. Unfortunately she thought the chicken
smelled bad after a few minutes and wouldn't give them anymore. I am going
to start her out with chicken for a week or so to get her used to raw then I
am sure I can find a variety of meats and organs to offer. Both of her
parents are around 10 lbs so I am expecting her to be about that size.

Is there anything I might need to know specifically for feeding small dog?

Thanks,
Michele


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Messages in this topic (122)
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8a. Re: Having issues changing to new protein
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:06 pm ((PDT))

There is nothing good about ground meat for a dog.
Think whole prey.
Try feeding chunks of beef instead of ground.
Bones are supposed to make up roughly %10 of the
overall diet (I feed mine a little more because she
really loves bones)...
What kind of chicken are you feeding? Whole chicken?
Ground?
Some bones are definitely beneficial..especially for
countering loose pooh.

Nathalie

> question though is I
> have her started on Chicken, I started giving her
> very small amounts
> mixed in of Ground Beef, but she starts getting a
> little more runnier
> poo, so I know it has to be the beef. What if I
> can't give her a
> variety or should I just keep adding a little bit
> until her system
> gets acclimated to this new variety? Also can you
> give a little bone
> everyday or do you recommend every other day? Thanks
> for any help!
>
>

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Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. I second the request for a Sample Meal Plan!
Posted by: "Pam Vojtas" pam.vojtas@datacore.com pvojtas
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:06 pm ((PDT))

Ok, I'm new too and can certainly sympathize with the desire for a simple sample meal plan. I have been researching raw for awhile and can't wait to get started, yet am daunted by the task. I have almost decided to go the 'prepackaged raw' route, but joined here to see if you all could help answer some questions.

First, because of my time constraints and location, (and honestly, lack of desire to feed whole carcasses, fur or feathers and all :-) ) I would like to be able to feed from the good ol' grocery store chain. Is this possible?

Second question - OK, I get the ' 80% meat 10% bone, 10% organ' rule and the '2-3% of desired body weight rule', but can anyone break this down into some more explicit examples? (Remember, I'm used to reading a label and scooping out ½ of a can. My big decision has been whether we open the can with the yellow label or the green label :-)

Actually, I have a gazillion questions, like: How can I determine what percentage of a chicken leg quarter is bone? Are necks bad for little dogs? Can I used ground beef/chicken/pork as a staple? If not, what are some of the cuts of meat to look for (I'm not too up on names of cuts) Wouldn't certain types of meat/fish/organs have more calories per lb than others (important for my chubster)? Is the green beef tripe from Solid Gold in a can OK? If I used (cooked) chopped calves liver as training treats, does this count towards the 10% organ rule? And I have been baking beef marrow boees forever - are these really bad as 'recreational bones'?

Lastly, I have one underweight 9 mo old (18 lbs) and one chubby terrier (too many training treats!) (23 lbs) - both should be about 20 lbs. I know I can experiment with portion sizes, but I really can't afford to let Charlie gain even an ounce - we're about to start competing in agility and the extra weight has to come off ASAP (he has already lost 1 ½ by cutting back on his non-raw diet).

So what I'm looking for is some basic example to get started, like:

M W - N lbs of ground meat

Tu - N lbs choice of calves liver, beef heart, chicken gizzards (are gizzards OK?)

Th - one chicken leg quarter

F - Pork roast w/ bone

Sa - one portion of fish (fresh) or canned salmon

Su - 1 can green beef tripe

And maybe throw in a chicken neck for breakfast every morning?

Any advice welcomed!

Pam, Charlie and Quincy

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Messages in this topic (7)
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9b. Re: I second the request for a Sample Meal Plan!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:23 pm ((PDT))

"Pam Vojtas" <pam.vojtas@...> wrote:
> First, because of my time constraints and location, (and honestly,
lack of desire to feed whole carcasses, fur or feathers and all :-
) ) I would like to be able to feed from the good ol' grocery store
chain. Is this possible?
*****
Oh gosh yes.
There are very few of us who have to resources to feed whole prey all
the time. I think as you read and read and, um, read you'll come to
see the value of whole prey but not having access to it (either
physically or philosophically) absolutely should not stand in the way
of feeding your dog healthy raw, prey model-based food.

What I recommend though is you keep your options open and your eyes
peeled for the unexpected deal.


> Second question - OK, I get the ' 80% meat 10% bone, 10% organ'
rule and the '2-3% of desired body weight rule', but can anyone break
this down into some more explicit examples? (Remember, I'm used to
reading a label and scooping out ½ of a can. My big decision has been
whether we open the can with the yellow label or the green label :-)
*****
I'm sure people will provide/have already provided you with such data
but I personally do no feed raw food to emulate or replicate or
duplicate what happens with commercial dog food. Raw food is, in
fact, what commercial dogfood pretends to be...and fails of course.

I suspect you do not "get" the 80/10/10 recommendations, else you
would recognize they are guidelines only. What they mean day to day
or meal to meal or month to month is lots of meat, preferably but
not crucially attached to some small but essential amount of edible
or mostly consumable bone, and a small of amount of organ meat, of
which an even smaller amount is liver.

80% = a whole tonnage of meat
10% = not very much, whether it's edible bone or squidgy organs.

So feed lots of meat and some edible bone and some organs and Bob's
yer uncle.

How can I determine what percentage of a chicken leg quarter is bone?
*****
Neener neener, you can't. What you CAN do is look at the body part,
maybe even touch it if you're okay with that. Can you SEE the bone?
How much meat is wrapped around the bone? Is the meat all nice and
cushiony around the bone or does the bone's structure dominate the
body part? Or you can refer to several nutrition databases if you
need to get the "official" take on flesh versus waste (which for
humans would be bone).

If--as with most leg quarters--there's a whole lotta bone in the body
part, you have at least two options. One, feed the leg quarter and
worry about meatier meals later. Two, add meat to the leg quarter
meat to make it meatier. Either option is easy peasy. Both are
reasonable choices.


Are necks bad for little dogs?
*****
They're chintzy without added meat. They can choke a small dog that
doesn't take time to crunch dem bones. I feed them (with gizzards
and heart) to my 10lb cat because she handles them like a pro. It's
a critter by critter decision. Whatever ever size dog you are
feeding though, a chicken neck doesn't have enough meat on it.


Can I used ground beef/chicken/pork as a staple?
*****
Not advised. The form of the food is as valuable as its nutrition.
Meats as well as bones ought to be challenges that the dog regardless
of size should have to work for. Maybe not 100% of the time, but
certainly overall.


If not, what are some of the cuts of meat to look for (I'm not too
up on names of cuts)
*****
Whole chickens. Just buy some whole chickens to get yourself going
and don't worry now about nailing down all the details you will face
later.

You don't need to have professional names for the body parts you
feed, although with time you'll learn them, just as you would learn
any foreign language. You want bones with lots of meat on them. You
don't want bare naked bones. You want whole meats, you don't want
ground unless you'd be a darn fool to pass up such a deal.

Useful body parts include shoulders, necks, legs, loins, briskets,
ribs, shanks, feet, at least. Some are better from some critters,
some are not. If they got meat, they're good,


Wouldn't certain types of meat/fish/organs have more calories per lb
than others (important for my chubster)?
*****
You feed according to ideal weight. You wanna count calories you
certainly can but the easier way to dechub a chubster is to assure
there are no underlying health issues, increase exercise and decrease
food.


Is the green beef tripe from Solid Gold in a can OK?
*****
It's cooked. Green tripe is not so valuable that canned is
justifed. If you can't get is raw, don't worry. There's more virtue
in canned salmon than there is in canned green tripe.


If I used (cooked) chopped calves liver as training treats, does this
count towards the 10% organ rule?
*****
It might, but if you are using treats properly, they will not
contribute much to total intake. Raw is better for food.


And I have been baking beef marrow boees forever - are these really
bad as 'recreational bones'?
*****
Oh my. Stop feeding them altogether! Baking them--oh my. That
dried out and hardened the bones, and melted away arguably the best
part of the bone--the marrow. No more cooked bones, period. No more
marrow bones as rec bones. No more rec bones.


I have one underweight 9 mo old (18 lbs) and one chubby terrier (too
many training treats!) (23 lbs) - both should be about 20 lbs. I know
I can experiment with portion sizes, but I really can't afford to let
Charlie gain even an ounce
*****
You have to take the weight off sensibly! Starving him to make him
fit for agility is like a teen starving herself for the prom. It's
not healthy and it's not reasonable. He got fat over time and while
he WILL lose unwanted weight he will lose it over time as well.

Your first job as a responsible raw feeder (as a responsible pet
owner) is to optimize health. So not only do you have to monitor his
weigh loss, you also have to monitor his exercise. Regardless of how
ready YOU are when the day arrives, he may not be. That's reality.


> M W - N lbs of ground meat
>
> Tu - N lbs choice of calves liver, beef heart, chicken gizzards
(are gizzards OK?)
>
> Th - one chicken leg quarter
>
> F - Pork roast w/ bone
>
> Sa - one portion of fish (fresh) or canned salmon
>
> Su - 1 can green beef tripe
>
>
>
> And maybe throw in a chicken neck for breakfast every morning?
*****
How about--buy a whole chicken, cut it into quarters (two leg/thigh,
two wing/breast. Feed a quarter a day.

When the bird is gone, do it again. Feed the liver, gizzard and
hearts that come with the whole bird. After a couple weeks branch
out. If you browse the archives and read the current messages,
you'll know where you want to branch out next to.

With all due respect, a good raw diet is like a good species
appropriate diet for humans--you cannot get by on a stack of
microwave dinners in the freezer.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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10.1. Re: recreational bones
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:07 pm ((PDT))


> In fact, if you
> are not feeding big, complicated, clumsy, awkward
> and engrossing
> meals that sort of require a day's recuperation
> afterward,

Chris, what kind of meal (meat-wise) would this be?
How long do you let the dog eat for? Surely not the
15-20 minutes that some here recommend?
I'm curious because I would love to feed my dog
something like that, that is so engrossing it takes a
day to recuperate!

Nathalie


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Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________

10.2. Re: recreational bones
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Nathalie Poulin
<poulin_nathalie@...> wrote:
>
> Chris, what kind of meal (meat-wise) would this be?
> How long do you let the dog eat for? Surely not the
> 15-20 minutes that some here recommend?

*** Not Chris, nor could I hope to be, but the 15-20 minute rule that
some recommend has to do with how long to wait for the picky dog to
begin eating, not how long it should take to finish. If you are
feeding big complicated luscious and meaty bone-in meals, it might
take 30, 45, even 60 minutes or more to finish the meal, depending on
the dog and the meal in question. I have 5 dogs, and some finish a
whole chicken in a few minutes, others take half an hour. Bigger more
complicated meals take longer.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
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11a. Re: Poe loves her bones...
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:07 pm ((PDT))

> *****
> None of these body parts offer lovely amounts of
> meat, so perhaps if
> you were to revise the menu to offer lovely amounts
> of meat she might
> be more satisfied at the end of her meal.

Great, I will try this. Thanks!


> *****
> I suggest you consider feeding meaty bones, not
> bones separate from
> meat. This may will fill her belly and her
> expectations.
> Additionally, I urge you to ignore her sad brown
> eyes.

How does one do this and avoid the guilt that goes
with it. I mean, I KNOW that I'm feeding her
well...hahaha they REALLY know how to give that "sad"
look.

What's a really good and meaty piece of bone I can
feed?

Nathalie

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Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

12a. Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:07 pm ((PDT))

My youngest dog Sassy has just recently been introduced to the RAW
diet. She is a 2yr old lab/spaniel. We are going on 4 weeks of raw
and for the most part she has been feed whole chickens (cut into
quarters) My wife called me at work yesterday and told me that Sassy
was discretely vomiting all over the house (Yellow/White frothy piles
- no food really, just liquids). I assured her that It would be O.K.
but just to be on the safe side, I didn't feed her this morning. I
get home from work and she is still vomiting. No food at all, just a
very slimy mucus type of bile. Whats worse, is that it is has gone
from a yellow froth, to a clear maroon color with heavy dark spots
(kinda like I threw a couple of pieces of liver in it or something).

Naturally I am fearing the worst - that she is experiencing some
bleeding in her stomach. The local vet closes shop at 5pm and the
"vet hospital" doesn't open for a few more hours. So I thought I
would ask the experts here.

While i believe that a raw diet is best for my dogs, could this be due
to the diet itself? Any thought on what I should do? (Outside of
going to the vet)

Thank you for any help you can give me!

Jeff & Sick Sassy

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:15 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cresco299" <gentry.jeffrey@...>
wrote:
>
> We are going on 4 weeks of raw
> and for the most part she has been feed whole chickens
> While i believe that a raw diet is best for my dogs, could this be
due
> to the diet itself?

*** If she's been doing fine on chicken quarters for a month, it
isn't likely that chicken quarters are the culprit here. Could she
have gotten into something? Eaten a poisoned rat, found something in
the garbage, anything? Is it excessively hot where you are, or has
she gotten too much exercise? Vomiting is the appropriate response
to something bad in the tummy, but it doesn't sound good that she
isn't bringing anything up but liquid that is getting darker. If she
is acting fine other than the vomiting, maybe you could continue to
fast her overnight and see how she is in the morning, but if she
seems at all under the weather, acting funny, or feeling poorly, a
trip to the e vet is in order, I think.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

12c. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:47 pm ((PDT))


> trip to the e vet is in order, I think.
>
> --Carrie
>

There is an endless list of things she "could" have gotten into, but
It's all speculation. But you are correct, I just wanted some
"support" before I have my first confrontation with my vet about RAW
feeding.

I'm off to the Vet!

Jeff and Sick Sassy

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

12d. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:52 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cresco299" <gentry.jeffrey@...>
wrote:

> I just wanted some
> "support" before I have my first confrontation with my vet about RAW
> feeding.

*** The fact that you feed raw need not come up. You could mention
that she "got into" some raw chicken, or just say that you feed
homemade. Some vets seize on diet as the cause and don't look any
further. While raw *may* have something to do with this, though I
doubt very much it does, be wary of a vet that hears the word "raw"
and then makes a diagnosis without really looking at the animal in
question.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (4)
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13. Last nights disaster
Posted by: "Lisa Hope" GreyhopeWeis@hotmail.com greyhope_weimaraners
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:48 pm ((PDT))

Hi Guys

I got home from work last night to find the hounds had raided the laundry
and I had a really old container of kibble (more than 3 years old), that I
had not thrown away, it was a plastic Pro Plan jug type container which
holds about 3 kg of in this case "crap in a bottle".

Phoebe looked as though she had eaten the whole container - she was huge, as
was Izzy, but Rowdy and Jorga looked as though they hadn't eaten any or at
least not much.

Now being weimaraners and prone to bloat I was in a panic with Phoebe, Izzy
being only 14 weeks old was not that much of a concern (poo will be nasty
for a few days though).

Phoeb and Rowdy haven't had kibble for at least 3 years and Jorja and Izzy
have never had it - ever !!

I obviously didn't feed all 4 last night, Izzy, Rowdy and Jorja all looked
normal this morning, but Phoeb still looked quiet full, I only gave them all
a very small breakfast, I don't know if I should have given Phoeb anything
at all, but me being me was fearful that if I didn't give her something to
eat she might eat anything she could (this girl in her life has consumed
some of the most amazing things - a bottle of Tar and Spot remover, a bottle
of Preen, you name it she has eaten it!!!)

There were a few yucky poos last night before bed, but Phoeb et al slept
soundly, but smelly gas was the order of the evening.

Does anyone know how long it takes for this kibble rubbish to be digested ??

Lisa
Greyhope Weis - Aust
http://www.users.bigpond.com/greyhopeweis
GreyhopeWeis@bigpond.com

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Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11837

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Summary for your newest member
From: Morledzep@aol.com

2a. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: Morledzep@aol.com

3.1. Re: itchy skin
From: Giselle

4a. Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: Maiakitas@aol.com
4b. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: Yasuko herron
4c. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: Giselle
4d. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: Daisy Foxworth

5a. Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
From: chele519
5b. Re: Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
From: costrowski75
5c. Re: Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
From: cypressbunny
5d. Re: Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
From: chele519
5e. Re: Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
From: chele519

6a. Re: How many meals should a puppy have
From: Laura Atkinson
6b. Re: How many meals should a puppy have
From: costrowski75

7a. Poe loves her bones...
From: Nathalie Poulin
7b. Re: Poe loves her bones...
From: costrowski75
7c. Re: Poe loves her bones...
From: cypressbunny

8a. Sample Meal Plan??
From: shutch12001
8b. Re: Sample Meal Plan??
From: Casey Post
8c. Re: Sample Meal Plan??
From: Sandee Lee

9.1. recreational bones
From: Felicia Kost
9.2. Re: recreational bones
From: Sandee Lee
9.3. Re: recreational bones
From: costrowski75

10a. Having issues changing to new protein
From: spicemother
10b. Re: Having issues changing to new protein
From: mwood8402


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Summary for your newest member
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:02 pm ((PDT))


In a message dated 7/23/2007 8:13:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ngbjorgan@gmail.com writes:

1) Are kelp, bone-meal and fish oils necessary if one is doing the above?
2) How many raw eggs (including the shell) for a lab in a week?
3) Is there anything I'm missing that I should know before we get this
puppy?



Naomi,

Fish is good whole prey.. but 2 times a week is pushing it.. once or less per
week is probably more than necessary. Of course, in the philipines you may
be able to get fish much cheaper than other meats, so it might be in your best
interests finanically to feed more fish.. in this case.. feed it often, but
feed a good variety of other meats too..

the answers to the other questions would be:

1. kelp and bone meal are counter productive, but fish body oil (not liver
oil) can be good for boosting Omega 3 and to combat itchy skin in the dry season.

2. eggs is a dog by dog kinda thing.. most of my dogs can eat 2 - 5 eggs in a
meal and have no adverse effects, but some dogs get seriously squirty stools
if they eat more than one egg in a week.

3. looks to me like you've got it covered.. but if you can't get whole prey
you're gonna want to lean on the "golden ratio".. lol. 10% edible bone, 10%
organ meats and 80% everything else.. especially muscle meats.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (11)
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2a. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:06 pm ((PDT))


In a message dated 7/23/2007 8:11:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mdevlin@aisle10.net writes:

since those bones are harder, should I be
supplementing those meals with a more boney piece of chicken and taking away
the beef/pork bones after he picks them clean?




Mike,

not necessary to suppliment with extra bones any time.. bare naked bones are
a BAD thing. if the dog can't handle the bigger bones just feed something
with a bone in it that he can eat tomorrow.. remember most folks feed too much
bone, you only need about 10% edible bone in the entire diet.. which basically
means there should be LOTS of boneless meals..

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (6)
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3.1. Re: itchy skin
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:28 pm ((PDT))

DITTO, from me too, Laura!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Laura,
>
> Add a lot more meat and dump the yogurt, cottage cheese and veggies
and see
> how that goes! Looks like you are feeding a lot of bony portions
that are
> lacking in meat and fat.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang


Messages in this topic (44)
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________________________________________________________________________

4a. Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "Maiakitas@aol.com" Maiakitas@aol.com maiakitas
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:14 am ((PDT))

Catherine,

I think you misunderstood, I have no problem with my stubborn pooches missing
meals, I've had Akitas for 25 years, so the ones that want to play games have
missed many a meal. :o) I was trying to figure out the logistics of trying
to have only fresh meat available, and stop having to waste so much, since it
is apparent that they will not eat anything that is even slightly "off," just
like cats. And unfortunately as Megan suggests, and maybe because they are
still new at this, the partially frozen does not seem to work either.

Does microwaving on defrost briefly alter the nutritional content of the meat
if it is still partially frozen? I know there has to be a way to get this
right.

Regards,
Carla

**************************************
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Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:51 am ((PDT))

>Does microwaving on defrost briefly alter the nutritional content of the meat if it is still >partially frozen?

Hi,Carla. I think I have read somewhere but microwaving cook the bone so, no good to do microwaving.

Did you try flavoring the meat you want to give?
Like,you sear the meat quickly and heat bring up the smell and even without flavoring some dog eats it.If that did not healp,try searing with butter or garlic powder.and less searing over time.

and if you hunch over the meat,maybe dog could sense that too so,sit back relax and the dog will eat it.

I read that bring up temprature;meat in zip bag and put it in warm water to bring temp up, also helps.

Good luck

yassy


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Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:59 am ((PDT))

Hi, Carla!
If your guys won't eat partially frozen, just put the meal to
be fed under very warm water in a sink or deep pan to thaw it fast.
Keep it in the plastic zippy bag, but make sure there's no air
pockets, that makes it thaw more slowly. You can weight it down with a
heavy pan filled with warm water, too.

If you want to thaw it fast, or several meals are stuck together, take
the chuck out of the bag, and just thaw under warm water. Break each
portion apart as you can, and it will thaw faster.

Its not a good idea to thaw or warm meat and bone in the mic.
Microwaves cook from the inside out and the bone may get hot &/or
brittle before the meat is thawed.

If you thaw under warm water, sometimes it doesn't need to be
completely thawed before the dog will eat it. The warm outside and
increased odor entices the dog to eat it, then when they get to the
still frozen part, NBD. You may be able to then thaw less and less,
until they are eating partly frozen meals right out of the fridge.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I think you misunderstood, I have no problem with my stubborn
pooches missing
> meals, I've had Akitas for 25 years, so the ones that want to play
games have
> missed many a meal. :o) I was trying to figure out the logistics
of trying
> to have only fresh meat available, and stop having to waste so much,
since it
> is apparent that they will not eat anything that is even slightly
"off," just
> like cats. And unfortunately as Megan suggests, and maybe because
they are
> still new at this, the partially frozen does not seem to work either.
>
> Does microwaving on defrost briefly alter the nutritional content of
the meat
> if it is still partially frozen? I know there has to be a way to get
this
> right.
>
> Regards,
> Carla


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "Daisy Foxworth" daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com daisyfoxworth
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:11 am ((PDT))

>
> Its not a good idea to thaw or warm meat and bone in the mic.
> Microwaves cook from the inside out and the bone may get hot &/or
> brittle before the meat is thawed.
>
I had always understood that microwaves heat from the outside in, and
that you arrange the dish with that in mind. Perhaps bones absorb
more of the microwaves than meat does and that is why they are more
likely to cook.

Daisy

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:17 am ((PDT))

My dog Shrek is having her upper fourth premolar pulled tomorrow for a
slab fracture. All her other premolars are worn flat so i just don't
think pork shoulder bones are appropriate for her anymore. The problem
is she has many allergies so she eats pork, duck, and lamb. I'm
planning to continue to give her the pork shoulder whole to get the
meat and then take away the bone. Or, my butcher will slice them for
me and I can give it as a slab and remove the bone that way. I'm
trying to see about getting the duck carcasses i used to feed and
going back to those, plus getting some boneless lamb instead of the
shoulders. The carcasses don't have a lot of meat on them but I
thought if I fed the pork and then fed the duck carcass every other
day along with the pork, it would be enough. I can't afford to feed
whole duck all the time, 1-2 per month is about it but one is 2-3
meals for her. Would the duck carcass be enough bone if I fed that
every other day? Fish isn't an option because the cheapest stuff is
around 5.99/lb.
Michele

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:49 am ((PDT))

"chele519" <chele519@...> wrote:
>
> My dog Shrek is having her upper fourth premolar pulled tomorrow
for a
> slab fracture. All her other premolars are worn flat so i just don't
> think pork shoulder bones are appropriate for her anymore.
*****
I don't know that your conclusion necessarily follows from the facts
you offer but if you want to skip pork shoulders bones, there are
others so tis not the end of the world. I've had dogs with stubby
premolars that did fine jobs on pork or lamb shoulder bones; I only
quit feeding them because advanced age seemed to diminish jaw
strength.

Bones are about crushing, not chewing, so pointy teeth are not
generally called for when tackling bones. Pointy teeth are for
slicing. A dog with stubby teeth is easily as likely to have trouble
busting up hunks of meat as dismantling shoulder bones.


The problem
> is she has many allergies so she eats pork, duck, and lamb. I'm
> planning to continue to give her the pork shoulder whole to get the
> meat and then take away the bone.
*****
If you're not going to use the weight of the bone, why pay for it?
Unless bone-in pork shoulder roast is mighty cheap, buy bonless pork
and feed with the bones of other species, as you suggest. No big
deal. Or try other pork parts: brisket bone, spare ribs, riblets
(rib tips), hocks, neck bones. Seems to me you are making this more
difficult than it needs be.


Would the duck carcass be enough bone if I fed that
> every other day?
*****
If the duck carcasses you get are as bony as the duck carcasses I can
get but refuse to because they're too bony, you should have no
problem feeding adequate bone. People who choose not to feed bone
variety often rely solely on body chicken parts for the edible bone;
relying on duck carcasses is no different.

My guess is you will easily meet and probably exceed the amount of
edible bone needed for optimal nutrition. Whether you can get
adequate dental hygiene from the carcassses remains to be seen.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:19 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "chele519" <chele519@...> wrote:
>
> All her other premolars are worn flat so i just don't
> think pork shoulder bones are appropriate for her anymore.

*** Isn't this the dog that chews tennis balls? Pork bones are not to
blame, here, I don't think. Chewing on tennis balls is like chewing on
sandpaper--the teeth wear down the same.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5d. Re: Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:27 pm ((PDT))

I got rid of the tennis balls and got frisbees when I read that here
but she still has the slab fracture, that wouldn't be caused by the
tennis balls.

I guess I'm being overcautious. I just don't want to risk another
broken tooth.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cypressbunny" <cypressbunny@...>
wrote:

>
> *** Isn't this the dog that chews tennis balls? Pork bones are not to
> blame, here, I don't think. Chewing on tennis balls is like chewing on
> sandpaper--the teeth wear down the same.
>
> --Carrie
>


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5e. Re: Help with choosing bones after losing a tooth
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:31 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***


Well, I'm worried about her cracking the big premolar on the other
side too so that's the main reason I'm nervous about the pork.

I'm probably overreacting but with all the health problems she has had
and 2 surgeries in 1 month, I'm just really discouraged and being
overprotective.

Bone in pork shoulder is .89/lb. The only boneless pork that I can get
that is cheap is the sirloin steaks those are thin slices, like 1/4"
but the butcher will sell them to me before they are sliced. They're
small though, not like a big roast, maybe 1lb each. When I was giving
her the smaller stuff, it wasn't enough to express her anal glands.
Those only cleared up when i gave the whole pork shoulder in one
piece, that's why I was thinking I'd keep feeding that. Plus, I've got
about 20 of them in the freezer. :)

I was able to also get whole ducks at much cheaper prices than the
grocery store so I ordered some of those too.

For the first few days, should I grind some meat or just cut up a
roast into chunks? I'm sure her mouth will be sore. She wouldn't eat
last night so it was probably sore from the vet poking at it.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
> I don't know that your conclusion necessarily follows from the facts
> you offer but if you want to skip pork shoulders bones, there are
> others so tis not the end of the world.

> If you're not going to use the weight of the bone, why pay for it?
> Unless bone-in pork shoulder roast is mighty cheap, buy bonless pork
> and feed with the bones of other species, as you suggest.

> If the duck carcasses you get are as bony as the duck carcasses I
can get but refuse to because they're too bony, you should have no
> problem feeding adequate bone.
>
> My guess is you will easily meet and probably exceed the amount of
> edible bone needed for optimal nutrition. Whether you can get
> adequate dental hygiene from the carcassses remains to be seen.
> Chris O
>


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: How many meals should a puppy have
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:13 am ((PDT))

The easy rule of thumb is that when you can get their entire day's
intake into them with no adverse effects (loose stools primarily) then
they're ready for one meal a day. For some puppies this is the 5-6 mo
range, for others later.

Harder is explaining to the newly moved to 1 meal a day puppy why
she's only eating once a day now. I tend to wait longer to go to 1
meal to avoid this discussion <grin>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com


Messages in this topic (11)
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6b. Re: How many meals should a puppy have
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:55 am ((PDT))

"Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...> wrote:
>
> Harder is explaining to the newly moved to 1 meal a day puppy why
> she's only eating once a day now. I tend to wait longer to go to 1
> meal to avoid this discussion <grin>
*****
Ah yes.
My big dogs are accustomed to the vagaries of my feeding non-plan so
don't worry that the cat gets fed twice a day. But my pupster who is
now 10 months old and should darn well be happy on one square a day
continues to be agitated when the cat gets its evening meal. So the
pup gets a morsel for dinner. I figure I'm good for another couple
weeks, then it's ziiip. No more dinner snacks.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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7a. Poe loves her bones...
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:25 am ((PDT))

Hey gang,

I know that they're only supposed to get %10 edible
bone, but my dog LOVES chewing on bones.
When I give her a boneless meal, she always looks up
at me, after, like I've jipped her out of what's due
to her.
Is it bad to give her lots of bones? Right now I've
been giving her goat/beef ribs and beef spinal bones
and she LOVES them. She eats them right up.This of
course, on top of the goat, pork, beef (and sometimes
chicken) meats that I feed her.
I also found wild hare, but she only grudgingly ate
it.

My dog really loves bones.
Is it ok to feed more than the recommended %10 bone as
long as I'm still feeding nice meaty portions?

Nathalie


Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Poe loves her bones...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:09 am ((PDT))

Nathalie Poulin <poulin_nathalie@...> wrote:
> When I give her a boneless meal, she always looks up
> at me, after, like I've jipped her out of what's due
> to her.
*****
This is training and it seems she is training you. You don't have to
feed her bones just because she wants you to. So that is not a good
enough reason.


> Is it bad to give her lots of bones? Right now I've
> been giving her goat/beef ribs and beef spinal bones
> and she LOVES them. She eats them right up.
*****
None of these body parts offer lovely amounts of meat, so perhaps if
you were to revise the menu to offer lovely amounts of meat she might
be more satisfied at the end of her meal.


> I also found wild hare, but she only grudgingly ate
> it.
*****
This is not unusual. Rabbit is not necessarily a protein welcomed
with open paws. That she ate it is what counts.


> My dog really loves bones.
> Is it ok to feed more than the recommended %10 bone as
> long as I'm still feeding nice meaty portions?
*****
I suggest you consider feeding meaty bones, not bones separate from
meat. This may will fill her belly and her expectations.
Additionally, I urge you to ignore her sad brown eyes.

How much edible bone she CAN ingest is not the same as how much she
needs; it's the same consideration one must give to dietary
vegetation: what the dog CAN eat versus what the dog actually needs.
A overall average or 10%-15% ought be easily achieved even if you
sometimes feed the girl large quantities of bone--just by feeding her
equally large (or larger) quantities of meat.

Regular doses of fairly meatless bones like ribs and necks may result
in tooth damage and/or constipation; nutritionally, excess calcium
will be excreted via stools. How much she can comfortably eat is, I
guess, for you to discover.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: Poe loves her bones...
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:23 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Nathalie Poulin
<poulin_nathalie@...> wrote:
>
>> Is it ok to feed more than the recommended %10 bone as
> long as I'm still feeding nice meaty portions?

*** I suspect there are few on this list that feed as little as 10%
bone. Some feed a lot more bone than that. It will do her no harm if
you are closer to 15-20% bone on average. Some meals can be bonier,
some meatier.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Sample Meal Plan??
Posted by: "shutch12001" ghutch1@sympatico.ca shutch12001
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:51 am ((PDT))

Hi,
Could someone help me with a sample meal plan for my Black Russian
Terrier. Sebastian is 10 months old and approx. 120lb.
I started him on raw meat two days ago, feeding one chicken neck and
one back in the morning and two necks and backs in the evening. He
seems to be hungry and was sick (just a bit) twice last night.
Being new at this I'm a nervous wreck. I don't want my little guy
unhappy.
Please help!
Thanks
Susan

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Sample Meal Plan??
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:34 am ((PDT))

> Could someone help me with a sample meal plan for my Black Russian
> Terrier. Sebastian is 10 months old and approx. 120lb.
> I started him on raw meat two days ago, feeding one chicken neck and
> one back in the morning and two necks and backs in the evening. He
> seems to be hungry and was sick (just a bit) twice last night.

Susan,

Let me get this straight - you're feeding a 120 lb pup some chicken necks
and backs? This dog should be eating over 2 POUNDS of food a day, not
measly necks and backs! No wonder he's still hungry...and that would
account for the bit of sick you saw - empty tummy syndrome.

Go to www.rawfeddogs.net and look at the "recipes" section to get a better
idea of what size dogs need what size foods. Buy this boy some whole
chickens and whack them in half to get him started. He needs MEAT - not
skimpy bony things.

Keep reading!

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: Sample Meal Plan??
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:42 am ((PDT))

Susan,

Start him out approximately 3% of his ideal adult weight. If he is really
120 lbs., that doesn't sound like near enough food for a growing puppy.

Necks and backs are far too bony tho...you need to feed some meatier
portions.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "shutch12001" <ghutch1@sympatico.ca>
Could someone help me with a sample meal plan for my Black Russian
Terrier. Sebastian is 10 months old and approx. 120lb.
I started him on raw meat two days ago, feeding one chicken neck and
one back in the morning and two necks and backs in the evening. He
seems to be hungry and was sick (just a bit) twice last night.

Messages in this topic (3)
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9.1. recreational bones
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:21 am ((PDT))

Hello everyone, Is there such thing as recreational bones. I have been feeding lamb legs to my dogs on fastings days to occupy their mind. It works, they enjoy very much. Is this ok? What bones are not safe? I dont want any broken teeth. if they break the bones I dispose of the pieces so they are not swallowed. Does any one else use bones for recreation, if so what type? Thanks Felicia

---------------------------------
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Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (32)
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9.2. Re: recreational bones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:54 am ((PDT))

Felicia,

I think some dogs can consume most lamb bones, but if these are bare, hard
bones, they are not safe. The bones generally used for recreation are the
ones responsible for breaking/wearing teeth and should be avoided.

If you are gorging the day before a fast, they shouldn't need anything to
occupy them. Otherwise there is no need for a fast day.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Felicia Kost" <saphiradane@yahoo.com>


> Hello everyone, Is there such thing as recreational bones. I have been
feeding lamb legs to my dogs on fastings days to occupy their mind. It
works, they enjoy very much. Is this ok? What bones are not safe? I dont
want any broken teeth. if they break the bones I dispose of the pieces so
they are not swallowed. Does any one else use bones for recreation, if so
what type? Thanks Felicia

Messages in this topic (32)
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9.3. Re: recreational bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:20 am ((PDT))

Felicia Kost <saphiradane@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone, Is there such thing as recreational
*****
Yes there are. However, this list does not recommend them. Bare
naked bones--especially weight-bearing bones such as the very ones
you are feeding--are often implicated in tooth fracture or breakage.
They also grind the teeth down. In general and only half in jest we
refer to these are "wreck bones".

I urge you to feed plenty of meat on the bones you do feed, to offer
RMBs that are large enough to entertain their bodies and their minds,
and to find other distractionsbabysitters.

There is no need to feed anything on "fast" days. In fact, if you
are not feeding big, complicated, clumsy, awkward and engrossing
meals that sort of require a day's recuperation afterward, there's
really no reason to be "fasting" at all.

Perhaps if you joing Yahoogroups, you'd see in the archvies that
there are 31 previous posts linked to your topic.

Here's how to join Yahoogroups so you can access the Rawfeeding
message archives:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join
Chris O

Messages in this topic (32)
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10a. Having issues changing to new protein
Posted by: "spicemother" spicemother@yahoo.com spicemother
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:10 am ((PDT))

Hello,
I am new here my name is Millie and my little one is Sage, and
also to the raw diet. We just started on 7/07/07. My Shepherd Mix
3.5yr old has extreme IBS, we could never get it under control until I
researched my brains out and finally took the plunge and went raw.
WOW!!! what was I waiting for, she is a new DOG. I am so happy she is
feeling better and we finally had a firm stool for the very, very
first time 2 days after she was eating raw. My question though is I
have her started on Chicken, I started giving her very small amounts
mixed in of Ground Beef, but she starts getting a little more runnier
poo, so I know it has to be the beef. What if I can't give her a
variety or should I just keep adding a little bit until her system
gets acclimated to this new variety? Also can you give a little bone
everyday or do you recommend every other day? Thanks for any help!

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: Having issues changing to new protein
Posted by: "mwood8402" mwood8402@hotmail.com mwood8402
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:39 pm ((PDT))

My dog also has IBD and I also started with chicken. The second
protein I introduced was beef. I used lean stew meat. How fatty is
the ground beef? That may (or may not) be your problem. Make sure you
start with seriously small amounts of lean beef and feed it with a
boney meal for good measure. See how that goes. If it doesn't work,
there are plenty of other protein sources (fish, lamb, pork, venison,
rabbit, etc) that you can try. Good luck!

-Melissa W


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "spicemother" <spicemother@...>
wrote:
> Hello,
> I am new here my name is Millie and my little one is Sage, and
> also to the raw diet. We just started on 7/07/07. My Shepherd Mix
> 3.5yr old has extreme IBS, we could never get it under control until
I
> researched my brains out and finally took the plunge and went raw.
My question though is I
> have her started on Chicken, I started giving her very small amounts
> mixed in of Ground Beef, but she starts getting a little more runnier
> poo, so I know it has to be the beef.

Messages in this topic (2)
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