Feed Pets Raw Food: Sep 5, 2007

Wednesday, September 5, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12004

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: questions from newbie
From: ekayke

2a. Re: Chicken Liver
From: Olga
2b. Re: Chicken Liver
From: Giselle

3.1. Re: new member
From: connie
3.2. Re: new member
From: rodlinkennels@bellnet.ca
3.3. new member
From: Ivette Casiano

4a. Re: Thank you!
From: Giselle

5a. Re: It has been a month on raw!
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
From: Laurie Swanson
6b. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
From: S.R. Sudekum
6c. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
From: Morledzep@aol.com

7. Lobster tail
From: Sarah

8a. Feeling stupid!
From: Denise and David Spotila
8b. Re: Feeling stupid!
From: costrowski75

9a. Neck bones - which is best
From: millser25
9b. Re: Neck bones - which is best
From: Laurie Swanson

10a. BIG argument with a "holistic" vet!
From: coriowen
10b. Re: BIG argument with a "holistic" vet!
From: Sandee Lee
10c. Re: BIG argument with a "holistic" vet!
From: coriowen

11a. Re: Please help very nervous
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

12a. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for CoCcidia....any thoughts?
From: Ivette Casiano
12b. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for CoCcidia....any thoughts?
From: costrowski75

13. Lamb flank/dry skin (was Trimming...)
From: Ivette Casiano

14a. Re: Color change in coat
From: Morledzep@aol.com

15a. Re: San Diego Resources?
From: diana zarate

Messages
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1a. Re: questions from newbie
Posted by: "ekayke" ekayke@yahoo.com ekayke
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:45 pm ((PDT))

Wow, thanks so much for all that awesome info!

Kay

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:

Messages in this topic (9)
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2a. Re: Chicken Liver
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:45 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Howard Salob <itiskismet1968@...>
wrote:
> Silly question- but is liverwurst okay? I think it is raw.

I'm pretty sure it's cooked. :D

That is, if we're talking about the same liver-based brown paste that
sometimes comes in tubes. It's also seasoned.

Olga

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Chicken Liver
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 5:08 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Howard!
Nope!
cooked and seasoned!
http://homecooking.about.com/library/archive/blpork27.htm

Not species appropriate, imo, but ok to hide a pill in, or to offer
occasional smears of as a high value training treat.

Are you new to the list? Have you read any of the files, links, daily
messages or some of the archived posts?
Start a new topic and post your concerns!
btw, not the mod.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Dear Moderator,
>
> Silly question- but is liverwurst okay? I think it is raw.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Howard

Messages in this topic (5)
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3.1. Re: new member
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:50 pm ((PDT))

> Would you mind sharing your experience? I hope Jane will jump in
here, as she's been breeding and rearing NR litters longer than anyone
else I know.
>
>
>
> -- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden
rescue) in NW Ohio
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I have a bulldog I just switched to raw in her second week of
pregnancy. She seems to be doing great right now(Due in 10 days) I have
been feeding mostly chicken...some beef(gave her loose stool tho...so
give very little) and am giving ground rabbit(whole)and liver...she
won`t eat green tripe...anything else I can do differently?? Of course
she will have a c-section. Thanks~connie~
www.justbullies.com

Messages in this topic (72)
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3.2. Re: new member
Posted by: "rodlinkennels@bellnet.ca" rodlinkennels@bellnet.ca rodlinboxers
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 3:10 pm ((PDT))

I'd be happy to share our experiences. We went raw 6 1/2 years ago. The health of our adults improved almost immediately as did that of our first few litters - no more coccidia only rarely did we have kennel cough when on kibble we had kennel cough every year at least once.
We moved 4 1/2 years ago and started feeding mostly chicken - ground because my husband liked it that way. we did feed some red meat and organ meats. we have had approximately 9 litters in the last almost 5 years. much smaller litters, instead of 5-8 we had 1 2 or3 all but one a c section. We had puppIies die on us as late as 7 weeks old.
I have been treating mostly homeopathically in the past 1-2 years and have only given rabies and only once when the dogs were over a year old.
After much research and questioning It was suggested that I follow the prey type diet and that the excess calcium in our previous diet was part of the cause we were having so many c sections.
I am also treating our two young girls - the two we are planning to breed homeopathically in order to help clear up some of the problems brought on by generations of kibble and vaccinations.
Hopefully this is going to help us produce some healthy puppies born naturally.
Our vet although not really in favor of raw diet has helped me try to find out just why we were having so many problems. We have done extensive testing ie blood work, including thyroid, testing, CBC, tests to find out if we have a bacterial problem. WE have tested things like our water, and soil, we don't use chemical cleaners.
So this is our last resort.
I'd love to hear any other breeders experience.
Linda Norris
>

Messages in this topic (72)
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3.3. new member
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 6:34 pm ((PDT))

<<...I have discovered however that the raw diet I was following has been detremental to our breeding program...>>

Excuse my ignorance but why was your raw feeding diet detrimental to your breeding? Don't other breeders want healthy dogs to breed? I know nothing about breeding dogs but I would think that rawfed dogs would be coveted over crap in a bag fed dogs and would be worth a try for those who don't (seeing that your dogs are healthy).

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

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Messages in this topic (72)
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4a. Re: Thank you!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Melanie!
NPs! YQW
Yes, that sounds right. Big chicken, l0lz ^_^

No poop is not necessarily bad. We get newbies on here all the time
posting 'help!', as they think their dogs are constipated, because
they haven't pooped in a few days once started on raw. Truth is, raw
is so bioavailable - so easily digested - that most of what goes in,
stays there, and is used by the dog's body to heal itself and maintain
function. I think that this is particularly true of dogs just changed
over from kibble, as opposed to dogs who were on partial raw diets
prior to the switch.

Kibble provides protein and other nutrients from plant matter and
cooked protein. Most of the quality of these products are also
substandard, compared to prey model raw. So, there is much waste for
the dog to expel, because dogs can't process plant matter or cooked
nutrients efficiently or derive those nutrients in the quantity or
form they need to truly thrive.

Bone provides a lot of the "fiber" for stool volume. but edible bone
is also extremely bioavailable, so there is less waste from it than
you might think. Imagine if you had to eat Fruit Loops, All Bran and
milk three meals a day all your life! Then, you were given balanced,
species appropriate (for an omnivorous primate) meals to eat! Big
changes would ensue; in your digestion, in your body to heal and
repair and maintain itself, and in elimination, too!

So, don't be concerned if she don't poop for a few days, and if her
'pattern' of elimination is very different. And be prepared for it to
look different, too. Kibble poop is the same all the time because what
goes in is homogeneous, different raw proteins and bones will produce
poop that directly reflects what the dog ate.

Three paras on poop, heh heh. ; )

Don't be too concerned if she don't drink water as often, or pee as
often, either. Raw has lots of water content, too. Your dog won't need
to overdrink water to try to digest that dry-as-dust kibble.

Oh, and btw, why is feeding raw messy? Feeding once or twice a day, or
even less, should be a decision based on your dog's response to it.
New-to-raw dogs sometimes need to be fed twice a day until their
digestive systems can adjust to the changes, especially as new
proteins, varying amounts of bone and organs are added.

Are you using a towel or other floor covering or 'place mat' to feed
your dog on? Dog dishes are great for kibble, not useful at all for
raw, usually. I just lay down an old bath or beach towel and plop the
meal on that. Bea knows she's to keep her eating confined to the
towel. Often, she lies down and has a very contented and leisurely
crunch session. Afterwards I fold it up and put it away until the next
meal. I wash it maybe once a week.

Btw Melanie, where did you get such a big chicken?
TC
Giselle

> Actually, it was a HUGE chicken - 11 pounds! - so I think 5 servings
> is about right. My husband just came back from a walk with her and
> said no poop yet, so we'll see. I think I'm going to do two meals a
> day for the first week, then hopefully go to one since it is kind of
> messy. Thanks so much for your help!
>
> Melanie

Messages in this topic (10)
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5a. Re: It has been a month on raw!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 3:01 pm ((PDT))

"Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:

> I'm sure someone else <cough>Chris<cough> will post the actual
numbers.
>
*****
One 1,000mg capsule, 180 EPA and 120 DHA.

1 capsule per 20lb - 30lb, maintenance dose
1 capsule per 10lb, therapeutic dose

For example, I am currently giving my 60lb golden six capsules a day.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 3:25 pm ((PDT))

What do you mean she's not eating any meats? She won't eat? If her
appetite has been affected, too, I might be concerned. If you could re-
cap everything in one message, that would help (how long raw, what
feeding, when surgery in relation to everything, when she was eating
fine, when she stopped eating, bowel movements, etc.).

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "beckie716" <beckie716@...> wrote:
>
>> She's not eating any meats, but did eat small pieces of frozen liver.
> I also googled dog constipation and found an article that said to give
> her some vegi oil, olive oil etc. I have tried the vegi oil and will
> try more liver today.
>
> Beckie

Messages in this topic (7)
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6b. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
Posted by: "S.R. Sudekum" ssudekum@centurytel.net fassue
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 5:47 pm ((PDT))

If the dog is not passing anything solid and has stopped eating, and is
acting depressed and sort of "hunched over", I'd definitely call the vet
for an appointment, it could be seriously plugged up.

My Corgi had a similar experience (he ate a beef neck bone & didn't
drink any water for 12 hrs afterwards...we were on a road trip & he
refused the water). As a result he was pretty much packed solid and only
able to squeeze past some watery stuff. Believe me, I was feeding him
straight chicken liver doused with mineral oil, walks, the whole thing.
After three days when he stopped eating altogether I took him to the
vet, they gave him an enema that loosened things up. According to the
vet, his bowel was packed full "of adobe" (dry bone) & thankfully he
didn't tear me a new one about the raw diet, I got enough stern looks.

It took a few days for the dog to totally "clear out", but walks and
organ meat did help. I felt so bad for the little fella (and for my
wallet). Shortly after that the Mad Cow Disease scare hit the US & you
can't find beef neck bones any more, but you can be sure I'm more
careful now!

You can also buy the child-sized Fleet enemas and administer them to the
dog to help soften things up. Didn't work with the Corgi because he just
sat down and refused access, lol!

Sue in Michigan

Messages in this topic (7)
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6c. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 7:19 pm ((PDT))

If the dog is not passing anything solid and has stopped eating, and is
acting depressed and sort of "hunched over", I'd definitely call the vet
for an appointment, it could be seriously plugged up.

****We had a scare the other night with our Pugsley.. 12 or 13 year old
golden..

i think it was Sunday night we fed all the dogs a slab of ribs each, that in
and of itself is not unusual. But apparently Pugs is getting old and just
can't handle that much bone all at once anymore.

the first 24 hours was fine.. he didn't seem any different. But Monday night
he was laying in the entry way (unusual place for him) and he was asked to
move and we had to ask several times and when he got up we knew immediately
something wasn't right. He was in pain and was walking around crooked with his
head down and all he would do is sleep for about 12 hours (way out of character
for him). the following morning (yesterday) he got up, went outside and
pottied (lots of straining for nearly nothing), after 3 or 4 tries he started
walking better.. and wagging.. and inside of 24 hours he is his old happy self..

He didn't eat, refused to eat the eggs i offered him Monday night, Tuesday
for dinner i had some cheap chicken thighs and pork hearts thawed out.. i gave
Pugs half the bag of pork hearts and divided the rest amoung the other dogs
with the chicken thighs.

Tonight is green tripe, pork trim, and i think pork tongues..

and after that i need to dig out a pack of liver for everybody.. it's been
awhile.. Pugs is feeling better already.. and now i'm gonna overdo it the other
way till his poops are no longer crumbly.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (7)
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7. Lobster tail
Posted by: "Sarah" nananewfs@yahoo.com nananewfs
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 3:26 pm ((PDT))

I was given some lobster tails for my dogs. Not fit for human
consumption as they've been in a deep freeze far a couple of years
now. Anyways my question is probably dumb but can dogs process the
shell? thanks

Sarah

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Feeling stupid!
Posted by: "Denise and David Spotila" brookside_casa@yahoo.com brookside_casa
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 4:25 pm ((PDT))

I know I saved information about freezing and killing bacteria and parasites but can not find it! I have searched the archives and have not been able to find what I am looking for...........can anyone point me in the right direction please? I am looking for freezing and killing bacteria.............

David and Denise Spotila

Brookside Casa
Standard Poodles
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.
E Roosevelt

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Feeling stupid!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 8:27 pm ((PDT))

Denise and David Spotila <brookside_casa@...> wrote:
>
> I know I saved information about freezing and killing bacteria and
parasites but can not find it! I have searched the archives and have
not been able to find what I am looking for...........can anyone point
me in the right direction please? I am looking for freezing and
killing bacteria.............
*****
If you are trying to find documentation that supports the notion, you
won't, since freezing doesn't do a great job of killing bacteria. It
does slow reproduction, but the little darlin's just start in again as
soon as the meat thaws.

Might you be more specific?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Neck bones - which is best
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 4:29 pm ((PDT))

I'm about to buy some meaty neck bones from my local butcher. He
offers Lamb neck, Beef neck, and Pork neck. Of course, there is quire
a price difference between each of these. I'm having trouble deciding
which would be best for my 90lb GSD. Any suggestions?
Also, are the neck bones from these animals edible, or will I need to
make sure to remove the bones once he's chewed off the meat?
Thanks,
Erica

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Neck bones - which is best
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 5:48 pm ((PDT))

The pork and lamb will definitely be edible. My 20 lb. Boston handles
those fine. I'm not sure about the beef neck--might be fine for your
size dog. If the lamb and pork are close in price, I'd go for lamb as
it's probably a bit closer to wolves' natural diet, but I feed both.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
>
> I'm about to buy some meaty neck bones from my local butcher. He
> offers Lamb neck, Beef neck, and Pork neck.

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. BIG argument with a "holistic" vet!
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 4:29 pm ((PDT))

moderators note:Sign your mails!

So, I am still trying to find a holistic vet somewhere close to me,
which means even an hour or more away. I live out in nowhere! lol I
get a name of a woman vet and I call her today and she tells me all
she does is accupuncture. No problem, so I ask if she has anyone she
could recommend and she is a bit snooty/rude and says what do you
need? I said, "Well, right now I have adopted a 10 month old
Dachshund that needs to be spayed and I just don't like the vets out
here because their interest is all conventional med. and large animal
to boot." She laughs and says, "Well, to spay you still need the
same
meds whether you go to a holistic vet or a conventional vet." DUH! I
say, "Yes, I know this but I would like to START wiht a new holistic
vet and then
continue to use this vet, which ever one I can find, from now on. I
told her that the vets out here do not agree with RAW fed dogs and
she said, "Well, it depends on what you mean as RAW?" I explained
the prey model diet-WOLF DIET, and she started to go off on
me! "There is nothing wrong with dogs eating vegetables!" "Dogs are
not obligatory carnivores!" "Even wolves eat berries and fruits!" I
said, "Really? Where did you find your information?" She tells me
"It's a known fact and that no holistic vet that she knows would EVER
agree that a straight raw diet with no veg. or suppliments would be
good for a dog." I told her that in everything that I have
researched
and studied I have found that she is incorrect and that I have a
degree in exercise physiology and a minor in nutrition so I am no
genius but I do have a little understanding of how different animal
bodies work. I told her that I would give her my email address and
she could send me any information that is of the contrary to what I
was telling her. I wanted to know, seriously. I asked her, "What
about a dog is not a carnivore to you? She then said that they are
not direct decentants of wolves...HUH?! She just said earlier that
wolves ate the berries and fruits and stomach content of their prey,
which I corrected her on and she did not believe. She said, she was
originally from California and the coyotes and dogs were notorious
for scavaging into the avacado fields. I said, "They are scavangers
and they have learned to hunt differently than wolves but they are
indeed carnivores. If humanes did not incrouch on their territories
we would see that they would be eating MEAT, not avacados." She
said, "We could argue all day long and both will not back down from
each others beliefs, but I have treated many, many dogs over my
career and they have done just fine on raw + veg. I then asked her
and what about any of your treatment of only raw dieted dogs? She
said she didn't really see many, that she can recall...Maybe because
they were so healthy she didn't need to see them! lol
Needless to say, she wasn't very helpful in helping me find a good
holistic vet around my area! LOL Gee, I wonder why??? Hehehehe

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: BIG argument with a "holistic" vet!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 4:47 pm ((PDT))

Well, she's right about one thing, Cori....I have not yet heard of one
holistic vet who has a clue about rawfeeding! They pretty much all agree
dogs are omnivores, require fruits, veggies and a whole array of
supplements. The most popular seems to be Missing Link with all it's
horrible ingredients! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "coriowen" <COwen98@aol.com>

She tells me
"It's a known fact and that no holistic vet that she knows would EVER
agree that a straight raw diet with no veg. or suppliments would be
good for a dog."

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: BIG argument with a "holistic" vet!
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 5:48 pm ((PDT))

Sandee,
She actually referred me to a vet that wrote the book on all that
fruit, veggie, suppliments...oh yeah and meat diet! I told her, I knew
about him and he wouldn't be much help since he thought about RAW the
same way she did! LOL She was not too happy with me, not too happy at
all. I may have found one, that from what I have read she does believe
in prey model diet, I plan on calling her tomorrow. She would be about
an hour and a half away, but it would be nice to have a vet for routine
health checks for the girls. This is harder than I thought! Rrrr!
Cori
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Well, she's right about one thing, Cori....I have not yet heard of one
> holistic vet who has a clue about rawfeeding! They pretty much all
agree
> dogs are omnivores, require fruits, veggies and a whole array of
> supplements. The most popular seems to be Missing Link with all it's
> horrible ingredients! :))
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "coriowen" <COwen98@...>

Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Re: Please help very nervous
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 5:47 pm ((PDT))

Chris,
Read Work Wonders, by Tom Lonsdale, he's an Australian Vet, and a good one, and used to be a teaching vet at a university too.
Also read his book called Raw Meaty Bones, it's a bit longer and not as easy a read as the first, but goes more into detail if that is what you need, the details. There are other books out there, but these two I find are really specific and I've seen this guy on tv, he's a no fus no muss kind of person, and he has an adopted daughter who is brilliant, and she also gets it, and if she can understand it, so can I.:) Your ok, and your dogs will be too. I think what you read about was a misquoted case or a unsubstantiated case. I've never seen any with backup yet.
Goodluck, and keep it up, you really are doing a great service for your dog.
Jeni

----- Original Message ----
From: "chrisstfo@aol.com" <chrisstfo@aol.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2007 9:58:08 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Please help very nervous

Hi, how is everyone. OK I started raw 7 days ago. First info I got was to
go with red meat and other meat also. I stopped the red meat. I am only
giving her chicken as of right now. She seems to be doing very well on it. I
have a few questions that I would like answered by people that have fed there
dogs raw for more then 7 years. My wife is on my case, she found an article
from a DR name Julie Churchill college of veterinarian medicine unerviersty
of Minnesota. First is I just read a post by a member it stated that her dog
had a problem with her pancreas in this article it states that this is very
common with raw fed dogs. Is this true? It also says that dogs have died
from puncture wounds in the stomach and intes from raw feeding... It salo says
that all raw diets are lacking in nutritional deficiencies as well as serious
bacterial contamination. I am a believer in feeding animals the way they
would eat in the wild. Also am a believer that all commercial food is BS and
not good for our animals. I just need some articles to read on this, I am
having a hard time navigating this email board, if someone could help me. I
am scared that I may hurt my dog. Could someone please point me in the right
direction. Thank You, Chris PS she is 1 year old and weighs 60 pounds she is
a mut...

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Messages in this topic (19)
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12a. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for CoCcidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 6:17 pm ((PDT))

Like I've said, Giselle is the Goddess of research.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for CoCcidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 8:37 pm ((PDT))

Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...> wrote:
>
> Like I've said, Giselle is the Goddess of research.
*****
Ah, Giselle is the Goddess of making information user friendly, a fine
talent indeed. I think Lora (bearhair) is the Goddess of research.
Between them we will never want for documentation. And then someday
perhaps Jen (artfreaky) who is the Goddess of Tidy Files will return to
the list and my goodness the three will rule the world.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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13. Lamb flank/dry skin (was Trimming...)
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 6:34 pm ((PDT))

<<...I'm seeing a
100% increase in dry skin since adding a meal of lamb flank at least once a week...>>

Do you really mean what you just said? that you have seen 100% increase in dry skin???? Or improvement in dry skin?????

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

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Messages in this topic (1)
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14a. Re: Color change in coat
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 7:01 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/5/2007 1:11:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mpenny007@gmail.com writes:

He is brindle, which we knew, but
his brindle has gotten much more pronounced(a beautiful golden color!) So,
I'm thinkin(no professional opinion, of course) that it is the result of
better nutrition.

***i can second that.. our golden was somewhere around 7is when we started
feeding raw.. he had a couple sores and hot spots.. his coat was dull red.. i
wasn't hoping for much more than his sores improve.. lol.

within 2 weeks his sores were healed, the hair had started coming back in
about a week after that.. and 3 months down the line his dingy red coat started
sparkling and got a beautiful yellow hue that wasn't there before..

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

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Messages in this topic (3)
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15a. Re: San Diego Resources?
Posted by: "diana zarate" zarated5@sbcglobal.net bulliegirl55
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 8:10 pm ((PDT))

Do you live in San Diego? If you do and you get your meat for less than a buck please let me know where because I have yet to find a place here that sell cheap meat.

Diana

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
diana zarate <zarated5@...> wrote:
Also, the Bravo meat is not that expensive I get 5 pounds for $13.00
which lasts a whole month since that is not the only thing I feed.
*****
Oh my.
Not that expensive?
Anything over a buck a pound is getting pricey for me and $2.60 US is
fairly breathtaking.

I hope for your money you're getting more than just ground up meat.
Chris O

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Messages in this topic (11)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12003

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Salmon oils
From: bunchodogs

2a. Re: Best type of whole fish?
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
From: wandaful
3b. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
From: Laura Atkinson
3c. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
From: Jen S

4a. Chicken Liver
From: ive_anbio10
4b. Re: Chicken Liver
From: costrowski75
4c. Re: Chicken Liver
From: Howard Salob

5a. Re: Goop in eyes
From: meg_helmes

6a. BYB Lab?
From: Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)
6b. Re: BYB Lab?
From: Sonja

7a. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
From: Tina Berry
7b. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

8a. Re: San Diego Resources?
From: diana zarate
8b. Re: San Diego Resources?
From: costrowski75
8c. Re: San Diego Resources?
From: Maggie Smith

9a. feeding puppies
From: Michael Moore

10.1. Re: new member
From: Michael Moore

11. Breeding
From: Laura Atkinson

12a. It has been a month on raw!
From: erica
12b. Re: It has been a month on raw!
From: Andrea

13a. Re: Color change in coat
From: Patricia Masters

14a. Re: emu, ostrich ribs
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

15a. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
From: beckie716
15b. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
From: Olga

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1. Salmon oils
Posted by: "bunchodogs" bunchodogs@hotmail.com bunchodogs
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:42 am ((PDT))

Hello All,

For those of you who supplement with Salmon oil, do you think one
brand is better than another? I have been using Grizzly, but read the
information on Timberwolf and it sounds like it may be better because
of processing to remove the "junk" in it.

Linda

Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Re: Best type of whole fish?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:47 am ((PDT))

"Sonja" <ladyver@...> wrote:>
I have the option of purchasing the following for pretty cheap and I
was wondering if one variety is better (higher in omegas) than
another?
>
> Indian Mackeral
> Cod
> Pollock
> Smelt
> Round scad

Indian mackerel is probably your best bet. I suggest shopping for
whole sardines as well. Here are some links to help you compare
fish. Please consider Google a fundamental research tool when
looking for answers.

http://www.tufts.edu/med/nutrition-infection/hiv/health_omega3.html

http://www.annecollins.com/dietary-fat/fish-oils-fatty-acids.htm

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/nutritional_tools/omega3.shtml

http://fn.cfs.purdue.edu/fish4health/NutritionalContentofFish/omega3.p
df

Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
Posted by: "wandaful" rondarosa@ftcnet.net rondaros
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:56 am ((PDT))

=:+) I want a rabbit with feathers!!!
wanda
: a whole rabbit with feathers and all really is food....he wouldn't touch the
: thing!
:
: Jen
:

Messages in this topic (7)
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3b. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 12:04 pm ((PDT))

I'm not sure a whole rabbit with feathers really is "real food" ;-)

On 9/5/07, Jen S <jennilist@gmail.com> wrote:

Now if I can just convince my big guy that
a whole rabbit with feathers and all really is food....he wouldn't touch the
thing!

Jen

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

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Messages in this topic (7)
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3c. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
Posted by: "Jen S" jennilist@gmail.com bowiegirl1979
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

On 9/5/07, wandaful <rondarosa@ftcnet.net> wrote:
>
> =:+) I want a rabbit with feathers!!!
> wanda
> : a whole rabbit with feathers and all really is food....he wouldn't touch
> the
> : thing!

LOL, that should have said a whole DUCK with feathers. :)

Jen

--
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
-Mahatma Gandhi

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Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Chicken Liver
Posted by: "ive_anbio10" ive_anbio10@yahoo.ca ive_anbio10
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:57 am ((PDT))

Hey everyone, I am now getting used to buying Raw!!
I must say I do get odd looks when I go to the Local F**d B***cs
especially when I whip out the calculator...I just bought a lot of
chicken and chicken liver for 2.88/kg.
Is this a good price?
I was just wondering, if I should continue to buy chicken liver, or
just stick to chicken quarters?
Also, should I be removing the fatty skin when feeding?
My dogs ideal weight is 90lbs so should I be feeding 1.8lbs a day? (2%)
Should I feed Once a day, 2 times a day, or 3 times a day?

Thanks
Ive

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Chicken Liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 1:33 pm ((PDT))

"ive_anbio10" <ive_anbio10@...> wrote:
>
> Hey everyone, I am now getting used to buying Raw!!
> I must say I do get odd looks when I go to the Local F**d B***cs
> especially when I whip out the calculator...I just bought a lot of
> chicken and chicken liver for 2.88/kg.
> Is this a good price?
*****
High sale price in the US, decent everyday price. Here in northern
California, everyday price is $1.59/lb or worse, your price converts I
think to $1.30-something.

> I was just wondering, if I should continue to buy chicken liver, or
> just stick to chicken quarters?
*****
Well, you shouldn't stick chicken quarters indefinitely. You can feed
chicken quarters to start with and you can always use them, but you
should also work on getting more of the chicken onto the menu--
wing/breast quarters, half birds, backs, whole birds. So yes, you
should also continue to buy liver. And hearts too.

Whether you feed chicken liver or some other critter's liver, your dogs
will continue to need liver. Not a lot, not all the time; but
definitely they need liver.

> Also, should I be removing the fatty skin when feeding?
*****
Some people remove it at the beginning to moderate loose stools, some
people just feed it. Depends on the dog, actually. There's no
official need to though, and if your dogs digest it well, feed it.

> My dogs ideal weight is 90lbs so should I be feeding 1.8lbs a day?
(2%)
*****
This is as good a place to start as any. Expect to adjust, adjust,
adjust to get it right and keep it right. If the dog is an easy keeper
you may feed less. If the dog blows through calories, you'll probably
need to increase the amount.

> Should I feed Once a day, 2 times a day, or 3 times a day?
*****
Yes.

Truly, it's between you and the dog. I usually feed my healthy adults
every other day; sometimes I feed once a day, sometimes I'll feed twice
a day if the dog's health warrants it. My 11mo is eating once day
still, that may last for a while or not, I just don't know yet.

I prefer to let the size of the food determine the feeding schedule. I
also prefer to feed big, complicated meals that naturally seem to call
for an "every other day" plan. But when I am not feeding Big Food,
there's no real reason to skip a day, so I don't. Sometimes when Big
Food is pretty much a carcass, there may be two days between feedings.

Right now you should feed how you feel comfortable feeding as long as
it also works for your dog. However, don't feed "bowl food" simply
because you think you must. I think you should consider feeding
outside the bowl as often as possible.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: Chicken Liver
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

Dear Moderator,

Silly question- but is liverwurst okay? I think it is raw.

Sincerely,

Howard

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
"ive_anbio10" <ive_anbio10@...> wrote:
>
> Hey everyone, I am now getting used to buying Raw!!
> I must say I do get odd looks when I go to the Local F**d B***cs
> especially when I whip out the calculator...I just bought a lot of
> chicken and chicken liver for 2.88/kg.
> Is this a good price?
*****
High sale price in the US, decent everyday price. Here in northern
California, everyday price is $1.59/lb or worse, your price converts I
think to $1.30-something.

Whether you feed chicken liver or some other critter's liver, your dogs
will continue to need liver. Not a lot, not all the time; but
definitely they need liver.

> Should I feed Once a day, 2 times a day, or 3 times a day?
*****
Yes.

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

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Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Goop in eyes
Posted by: "meg_helmes" mhelmes@gmail.com meg_helmes
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 12:16 pm ((PDT))

> >>>My question is my papillon now has
> yellowish white goop coming out of her eyes.<<<

Prior to Raw feeding my dog Ruby, she also had eye boogers every day,
especially in the mornings. It seemed like they got worse during the
first few weeks of raw, but after a month or so, she doesn't have any
problems at all. I am not sure if it was totally diet related that
they have cleared up and are now much better than before, but it
certainly didn't hurt.

Someone else suggested allergies, especially inhalent/seasonal
allergies could be the cause of this. My whole family (dog and people)
have been bothered by seasonal allergies the past few weeks.

~Meg

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. BYB Lab?
Posted by: "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)" carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com carolyn.garnaas
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 12:27 pm ((PDT))

What is it?

Carolyn J. Garnaas

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Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: BYB Lab?
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 12:49 pm ((PDT))

BYB = Back Yard Breeder

Sonja

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7a. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 12:34 pm ((PDT))

No, they're not...but a healthier immune system (like a dog on a diet of
real food) will deal with 'em better, which was my obviously unclear point."

Absolutely - one of mine had girardia and the vet of course wanted to
medicate; I said no thanks. He kicked it on his own - took another fecal 3
weeks later and it was gone.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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7b. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

I rehab birds and they always have cocidia, and shed it in the poop, and dogs eat bird poop all the time, and that seems more like the culprit than the diet. I would ask the vet to produce the proof and the support for your records. Just to show the rest of the group too. Keep the faith, your doing great.
Jeni

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8a. Re: San Diego Resources?
Posted by: "diana zarate" zarated5@sbcglobal.net bulliegirl55
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 12:49 pm ((PDT))

They are ground but Iike I said that is only part of the meat that I buy. I also give her chicken leg quarters, pork neck bones...etc. Also, the Bravo meat is not that expensive I get 5 pounds for $13.00 which lasts a whole month since that is not the only thing I feed.

Diana

Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote: Aren't all Bravo products ground? I would think it would be far less
expensive...and more appropriate...to buy nice whole foods from local
markets, a buying group, etc?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "diana zarate" <zarated5@sbcglobal.net>

> Hi BJ, I buy part of the meat at Noah's ark Pet wash (noahsarkpetwash.com)
in Pacific Beach. They sell a variety of raw dog food. The one I buy is from
Bravo brand (bravorawdiet.com) they can put in a big order for you and you
just pick it up there the day it arrives. The prices are very reasonable
also. Hope this helps.

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Messages in this topic (10)
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8b. Re: San Diego Resources?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 1:37 pm ((PDT))

diana zarate <zarated5@...> wrote:
Also, the Bravo meat is not that expensive I get 5 pounds for $13.00
which lasts a whole month since that is not the only thing I feed.
*****
Oh my.
Not that expensive?
Anything over a buck a pound is getting pricey for me and $2.60 US is
fairly breathtaking.

I hope for your money you're getting more than just ground up meat.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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8c. Re: San Diego Resources?
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:04 pm ((PDT))

you betcha - you get lots of veggies and grains and sometimes bones to
compliment that ground up meat :)

Sorry, I couldn't resist - I wanted to reply to the OP but thought I
should probably wait till somebody else did first. Thanks Chris!

Maggie
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>

> Also, the Bravo meat is not that expensive I get 5 pounds for
$13.00
> *****
> Oh my.
> Not that expensive?
> Anything over a buck a pound is getting pricey for me and $2.60 US
is
> fairly breathtaking.
>
> I hope for your money you're getting more than just ground up meat.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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9a. feeding puppies
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 1:29 pm ((PDT))

>>I never ever measure the amount of food I'm giving my dogs or pups.
Pups get to each as much as they like, and I've never had one over eat
yet.<<

Jane -- I had to LOL at this -- while I don't ever measure food either, I truly believe my Corgis would eat until they explode. My puppies (4 mos. already!) were getting quite pudgy because I tried to let them eat their fill. My conclusion: Corgis are never, ever "full."

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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10.1. Re: new member
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 1:41 pm ((PDT))

>>I have discovered however that the raw diet I was following has been detremental to our breeding program.
So any breeders out there - I'd love any help and ideas to help us produce healthy puppies born naturally.
We don't vaccinate and use homeopathic treatments when they aren't well.<<

Wow, Linda, I am truly interested & curious abou this. One of the benefits I expect from a raw diet *is* the improvement in health of breeding animals and therefore, the puppies. While my last two litters (the only ones from rawfed dams) have been born via c-section, I chalk that up to my breed being predisposed to same. I personally have seen an increase in litter size (prior to rawfeeding, our litters were 3, 2, and 1, and since rawfeeding, 4 and 9).
Would you mind sharing your experience? I hope Jane will jump in here, as she's been breeding and rearing NR litters longer than anyone else I know.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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Messages in this topic (69)
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11. Breeding
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 1:46 pm ((PDT))

Have your litters historically required c-sections, prior to feeding raw?

What breed do you have that is pre-disposed to c-sections? I know many of
the smush-faced breeds are. Are you feeding too much bone while the bitch
is in whelp? Have you had your bitch under the care of a GOOD homeopath?

There are so many factors, we should probably head over to rawchat, 'cause I
know we're gonna go WAY off topic with this one. Or we can go join
rawbreeders and bring that list back to life <grin>.

On 9/5/07, Michael Moore <m-tak@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >>I have discovered however that the raw diet I was following has been
> detremental to our breeding program.
> So any breeders out there - I'd love any help and ideas to help us produce
> healthy puppies born naturally.
> We don't vaccinate and use homeopathic treatments when they aren't well.<<
>
> Wow, Linda, I am truly interested & curious abou this. One of the
> benefits I expect from a raw diet *is* the improvement in health of breeding
> animals and therefore, the puppies. While my last two litters (the only
> ones from rawfed dams) have been born via c-section, I chalk that up to my
> breed being predisposed to same. I personally have seen an increase in
> litter size (prior to rawfeeding, our litters were 3, 2, and 1, and since
> rawfeeding, 4 and 9).
> Would you mind sharing your experience? I hope Jane will jump in here,
> as she's been breeding and rearing NR litters longer than anyone else I
> know.
>
>
> -- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden
> rescue) in NW Ohio
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

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12a. It has been a month on raw!
Posted by: "erica" ericagordon@sbcglobal.net ericagsweet
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:04 pm ((PDT))

I just wanted to check in to say that Sophie is doing really well on
raw. She has had chicken leg quarters, pork, venison & is just
beginning to get a taste of bear the last 2 days. She is starting to
look chunky so I have decreased her amounts a little. I think I enjoy
watching her eat so much that I over did it a bit. Today I got my
hands on salmon oil capsules, because it sounds like it is highly
reccomended & she is still itchy. She has always been an itchy girl &
I wouldn't be surprised if she always is. Is 1,000 mg per day enough
for a dog that is about 55 lbs? I on't know where to find dosage
info, lead the way please. How do you give it? I smeared it with a
little peanut butter & she gobbled it right up, is that ok? Soon we
will begin adding liver which makes up 5% of organ meat, correct?
What options are there for the other 5 percent? Most organ meats
count as muscle from what I gather. I just need a little guidance on
the organs.

Thanks!
Erica

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: It has been a month on raw!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:37 pm ((PDT))

Glad everything is going well for both of you!

> Is 1,000 mg per day enough for a dog that is about 55 lbs?

Most of the fish oil brands I have tried end up with about a capsule
per 20lbs of dog for maintenance doses. There is a guideline
somewhere, but I don't have my fish oil cheat sheet with me right now,
I'm sure someone else <cough>Chris<cough> will post the actual numbers.

> How do you give it? I smeared it with a little peanut butter & she
> gobbled it right up, is that ok?

My boys take a gel capsule like it is candy. In fact, they get all
excited and sit expectantly at my feet whenever they hear me shake the
bottle. See if your dog will eat them whole and it will make your life
much easier. If you have liquid oil, you can squirt it on food or
right in their mouth.

> Soon we will begin adding liver which makes up 5% of organ meat,
> correct?

Organs should make up around 10% of the total diet, up to half of the
organ can be liver.

> What options are there for the other 5 percent? Most organ meats
> count as muscle from what I gather.

The other 50% or so of the organs can be anything you can get your
hands on. Kidney, spleen (melts), thymus, lungs, eyeballs, brain. . .
Heart and tongue are considered meat for feeding purposes. I suppose
green tripe could go in either category. For the most part my
guideline is squidgy and icky = organ.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. Re: Color change in coat
Posted by: "Patricia Masters" mpenny007@gmail.com mpenny_007
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Marie. I don't know the answer, but have experienced somewhat of a
similar phenomenon with my male Boston. He is brindle, which we knew, but
his brindle has gotten much more pronounced(a beautiful golden color!) So,
I'm thinkin(no professional opinion, of course) that it is the result of
better nutrition.
Congrats on the success of your new pups' diets! Happy health!
Dawn
with Max, Missy, Paco, and Simmy(the Siamese kitty who is 17 years young) in
Louisiana

On 9/4/07, marieandthefuzzybunch <marie@hotlinkhr.com> wrote:
>
> This is the interesting thing that is
> happening: Pat, who is a steel gray color, has developed several (6-8)
> very dark, nearly black patches of fur. These are about quarter
> sized. We just noticed them about a week ago. It is too early to
> really say whether they are increasing. Is this just a result of
> improved nutrition? I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has had a
> similar experience. Thanks!
>
>
>

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14a. Re: emu, ostrich ribs
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:13 pm ((PDT))

the legs have alot of good stuff inside that the dogs seem to like but they don't eat the bones, but the ribs are great for eating. Like chips, they love those!
Jeni

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15a. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
Posted by: "beckie716" beckie716@yahoo.com beckie716
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:36 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>

> Hi.If more meat,or giving liver did not help.Just go for walk.
>
> Walking encourage bowel movement.
>
> yassy

Thanks Yassy. I just got back from a walk and there was no "movement".
She strained, but nothing came out. She still is walking ok and acts
normal.

My daughter told me yesterday that she went a little. It was still
stuck to her backside, with a blade of grass. It was really really
dry, and had a lot of bone fragments.

She's not eating any meats, but did eat small pieces of frozen liver.
I also googled dog constipation and found an article that said to give
her some vegi oil, olive oil etc. I have tried the vegi oil and will
try more liver today.

Beckie
>
> ---------------------------------
> Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
> Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

15b. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

When is the last time she had a bowel movement?

When she finally does "go", her poop will probably be pretty liquidy
because of all the things you're feeding her to soften her stool.
Nothing to be alarmed about, just a result of what she ate, but
thought I'd mention it so you don't worry if/when you see it.

Olga

Messages in this topic (4)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12002

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Goop in eyes
From: Penny (Nickles) Parker

2a. Re: Who raises their own beef, goats and/or chicken?
From: Linda H. Gower
2b. Re: Who raises their own beef, goats and/or chicken?
From: Heather Robertson

3a. Re: Puppy feeding
From: Amanda Berthelette
3b. Re: Puppy feeding
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Puppy feeding
From: Laura Atkinson

4a. Re: Neyla won't eat lamb neck bones anymore - help!
From: Jen

5a. ok I am in love with Raw feeding
From: Heather
5b. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
From: Daisy Foxworth
5c. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
From: heather pavelin
5d. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
From: Jen S

6a. Re: Thank you!
From: melanieabrams

7a. Re: Happy update
From: ginny wilken
7b. Re: Happy update
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: chitterlings
From: mandajenwalker

9.1. Re: new member
From: Laura Atkinson

10a. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
From: Jen S

11a. Re: San Diego Resources?
From: Sandee Lee

12a. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
From: jackie
12b. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
From: Laura Atkinson
12c. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
From: Tina Berry
12d. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
From: Laura Atkinson

13a. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
From: Yasuko herron

14a. Re: Trimming...
From: Laura Atkinson

15. Best type of whole fish?
From: Sonja

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Goop in eyes
Posted by: "Penny (Nickles) Parker" loverladymaggiemae@yahoo.com loverladymaggiemae
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 6:30 am ((PDT))

Brandi,
If it started with one dog and now has spread to all of them except the
pup, I'd think eye infections, especially if it is yellow. The pup
probably doesn't have it because his immunity is still really good from
his nursing. If it is clear/white, then look for allergies to
something in the enviornment. It could be anything. If it is allergy
season for the humans, the dogs, especially if they are outside a lot,
could be suffering from allergies, also.
Either way, clean the goop up with wet cotton balls, or I use baby
wipes. Make sure you don't use the same one on another dog, you don't
want to take the chance of spreading something around.
Good luck.
Penny & The Menagerie

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Who raises their own beef, goats and/or chicken?
Posted by: "Linda H. Gower" pudeltime@bellsouth.net pudeltime
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 6:30 am ((PDT))

> Anyway, does anyone on here raise there own beef or chicken? If so,
> would it be worth our time? We definitely have the room to run some
> cattle. We actually lease some of our land out to run cattle, not ours
> but some friends'.
>

Well, it'd be easy enough to run a couple head of cattle with your friend's. We raise goats (just started in the last year) and I've done what I said I wouldn't and have named them. Too late for eating any of these girls........ Can't do it once I've named them, I'm too much of a sap. They are all bred now - so the thought's open when they kid. Hoping all of us get to experience a little goat meat.

--
Linda H. Gower
Mid TN
Lance (SP) AX, AXJ, Delta Pet Partner
Chase, (MP) OA, AXJ
In memory of Cocoa (who started it all)'70-'89
Duncan, UD, NA, NAJ, TDI great little buddy '89-'04
Bonzai, CDX, MX, MXJ, Delta Pet Partner - best partner I could dream fo

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: Who raises their own beef, goats and/or chicken?
Posted by: "Heather Robertson" clasix2003@rnsmte.com lotsadogz2003
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:06 am ((PDT))

We raise Sheep, Goats, Rabbit, Pig, Chicken ect..... For our dogs. Sheep and goats take field fence not just barb wire. We also raise cattle for ourselves but the dogs get alot of it too.
Heather

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Puppy feeding
Posted by: "Amanda Berthelette" zooberthelette@yahoo.com zooberthelette
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 6:38 am ((PDT))

I would look up the adult weight of both breeds and then go with that. Collies and Poodles probably weigh the same full grown any way. Hope it helps
fairefli <mommyrn@mac.com> wrote:
I have been reading to give puppies 2-3% of their estimated full grown
weight. What if you don't know what that is going to be? I have a
collie/poodle mix. Any guesses what she will weight?

Chy

---------------------------------
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Puppy feeding
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 9:30 am ((PDT))

"fairefli" <mommyrn@...> wrote:
>
> I have been reading to give puppies 2-3% of their estimated full
grown
> weight. What if you don't know what that is going to be? I have
a
> collie/poodle mix.
*****
If the pup is quite young (four months or less) you can use the
method based on 10% of current weight; but if the pup is beyond
the "quite young" stage you can:
--give the child food and let it eat til it's full, then collect up
the remains for a later feeding
--learn the average weights for the two breeds and come up with an
average that makes sense and feed 2%-3% of that
--take a stab at a likely weight and feed 2%-3% of that.

Since every conceivable way of feeding relies heavily on adjusting
to suit the needs of the dog (growing pup or otherwise), it really
doesn't matter how you go about it as long as you pay attention to
the effect the food has on the pup. Keep in your mind a picture of
a healthy active alert and happy athlete and when the pup isn't
matching up, tweak the menu.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: Puppy feeding
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:15 am ((PDT))

Then you go with 10% of their current weight and adjust as they grow :-)
I'm just too lazy to adjust that much and have dogs that I can figure an
anticipated weight.

On 9/5/07, fairefli <mommyrn@mac.com> wrote:
>
> I have been reading to give puppies 2-3% of their estimated full grown
> weight. What if you don't know what that is going to be? I have a
> collie/poodle mix. Any guesses what she will weight?
>
> Chy

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: Neyla won't eat lamb neck bones anymore - help!
Posted by: "Jen" jboydmorin@gmail.com choirgirl_21
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 7:46 am ((PDT))

So we saw the vet on Friday and I had her take a look at her teeth
while we were there. Nothing out of the ordinary. She continues to
eat everything else, including a whole chicken normally (although that
gave her diarrhea, that's the last time I buy store bought food for
them!). Any other ideas?

Thanks,
Jen

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <jboydmorin@...> wrote:
>
> The last two times I have fed Neyla her lamb necks, she won't eat the
> bone when she gets down to it. These are the really meaty whole necks
> (about 2 1/2 lbs each) that I've referred to before. Before feeding
> these two, I tried some lamb shanks that Peter had offered to me and
> Neyla got the bone stuck on her teeth a couple of times. I pulled it
> off and gave it back to her. When it happened another time or two, I
> just threw the bone away. So I'm wondering if she now associates lamb
> bone with that experience. She did continue to try to eat the lamb
> shank when I gave it back though, even though it kept getting stuck.
>
> Any other ideas? She's eating her chicken quarters like normal, it's
> just the lamb bone. She also had her annual exam last month and her
> teeth checked out perfectly. We have an appt with an orthopedist
> tomorrow for a separate issue so I am going to ask him to check her
> mouth just in case something popped up out of nowhere, but given that
> she's eating everything else normally including hard dehydrated
> chicken treats I doubt that's it.
>
> It really seems like the shank caused the problem but I'd love to hear
> any other ideas. And any input on what to do if that was it - keep
> trying and hopefully she'll go back to eating them?
>
> Thanks,
> Jen
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. ok I am in love with Raw feeding
Posted by: "Heather" hpav061378@yahoo.com hpav061378
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 8:18 am ((PDT))

Ok so it has been a week and a half and I will never go back to kibble
ever again. Leo has had a better time eating the chicken and that
makes me feel better. Leo has had no loose stools YAY! He even had his
second dose of deworming with little loose stools, Claire had some
worms left over so she had some diarrhea but not too bad. So they are
sheading a tiny bit but I think that is normal. We are feeding once a
day which I like also and they have already gotten use to that. I did
spoil them and give them a tiny bit of organs from the chicken before I
cooked it for myself and it didnt effect Leo bad at all. I am so
happy! I am getting ready to go to the meat market to get some whole
chickens. Do I just cut these into two and give them the whole thing?
Thanks again Heather

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
Posted by: "Daisy Foxworth" daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com daisyfoxworth
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 9:11 am ((PDT))

I am so
> happy! I am getting ready to go to the meat market to get some whole
> chickens. Do I just cut these into two and give them the whole
thing?
>

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/RecipeDetail/2

Love this site! LOL

Daisy

Messages in this topic (4)
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5c. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
Posted by: "heather pavelin" hpav061378@yahoo.com hpav061378
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 9:42 am ((PDT))

That sight is great thanks I am a visual learner so that helped me alot! thanks again heather

Daisy Foxworth <daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com> wrote: I am so
> happy! I am getting ready to go to the meat market to get some whole
> chickens. Do I just cut these into two and give them the whole
thing?
>

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/RecipeDetail/2

Love this site! LOL

Daisy

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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5d. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
Posted by: "Jen S" jennilist@gmail.com bowiegirl1979
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 10:26 am ((PDT))

On 9/5/07, Heather <hpav061378@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I am getting ready to go to the meat market to get some whole
> chickens. Do I just cut these into two and give them the whole thing?

I give the whole thing and let my boy eat what he wants, then save the rest
for the next meal. This worked really well with a whole duck, and he got 3
meals out of it. I love feeding whole prey as it makes it so much easier to
figure out how much organ/meat/bone to feed. One whole duck (or chicken, or
whatever) is the perfect ration. Now if I can just convince my big guy that
a whole rabbit with feathers and all really is food....he wouldn't touch the
thing!

Jen

--
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
-Mahatma Gandhi

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Thank you!
Posted by: "melanieabrams" melanieabrams@yahoo.com melanieabrams
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 8:28 am ((PDT))

> So, guessing the weight of your chicken at.... say, 3 - 4lbs for a
> fryer - each chicken would be about 2 days worth of food, plus the
> giblets and neck, which can be fed, too.

Actually, it was a HUGE chicken - 11 pounds! - so I think 5 servings
is about right. My husband just came back from a walk with her and
said no poop yet, so we'll see. I think I'm going to do two meals a
day for the first week, then hopefully go to one since it is kind of
messy. Thanks so much for your help!

Melanie

Messages in this topic (9)
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7a. Re: Happy update
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 8:59 am ((PDT))

On Sep 4, 2007, at 10:24 PM, Elizabeth Funderburk wrote:

> ...Can't wait to go to the vet with the Puppy for his routine shots
> and show
> him off. I don't comment a lot on this list, but I do think that raw
> feeding *IS* the best way to go, and I think any normal dog can do it.

Wonderful, Elizabeth! You're on the right track here with your very
common-sense approach. Now, I'm going to ask you to rethink the need
for more vaccines of any kind. Many respected experts acknowledge
that our animals are overvaccinated, and that the basic puppy
protocol can be well met by one parvo and one distemper. Many think
that none at all are required, and that the untroubled immune system
will provide all the defense an animal needs, for life. Since your
guys have both exhibited signs that they have been insulted by past
treatments of some kind, or inherited issues, the vaccines will be
particularly assaulting to them.

Please go read one or both of these lists:

jstsayno2vaccs

and

TruthAboutVaccines

both at yahoogroups

You are welcome to join us also on Rawchat, for more discussion.
Please do your research first, as vaccine damage is certain,
permanent, and progressive if left unaddressed.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Happy update
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 9:20 am ((PDT))

"Elizabeth Funderburk" <funder@...> wrote:
Both the Labs are delighted to crunch-crunch on chicken leg
> quarters. My husband is content, because feeding raw is cheaper
than the rx
> SD kibble. And I'm delighted to be feeding what I feel is the
most healthy
> diet for the dogs.
>
> Anyway, it's been 3-4 weeks since I started both my Labs on raw
food. We
> went through a bit of puking and a bit of too-hard poop. Both
dogs seem
> perfectly happy and healthy, and both are *slightly* calmer.
(They're BYB
> Labs, they'll never be truly laid-back.)
*****
I'm delighted to read that your husband for whatever reasons is
content with a raw diet, I'm delighted your dogs are doing well on
chicken and I hope you will be expanding their menu options soon
enough but I am really distressed your throwaway comment about BYB
Labs and levels of calm. You should have stopped a sentence sooner.

If/when BYB is the only determinant of a dog's character, then you
will be well within your rights to say that. But it ain't and you
ought not assume so.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: chitterlings
Posted by: "mandajenwalker" walker1031@chartermi.net mandajenwalker
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 9:13 am ((PDT))

Thanks for your responses! I really appreciate it.
I think I will pass on the chitterlings.
Thanks again,
Mandy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> >What are chitterlings and are they worthwhile for my dogs???
>
> Hi,chitterlings is pig of large intestine.
>
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitterlings
>
> I don't think I would feed but anyone who would??
>
> yassy
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (12)
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9.1. Re: new member
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 9:45 am ((PDT))

I think many of us (myself included some weeks) may feed too much chicken.
It's inexpensive and easy to get. It's not a red meat and probably doesn't
have the amino acids and other nutrients that red meat has that wolves have
thrived on in the wild for eons. I try to balance a chicken heavy week
(usually the week before either payday or coop delivery <grin>) with an
abundance of red meat (pork brisket, beef hearts) and figure, over time
we're doing OK.

I hope your switch to a prey model diet helps with your c-section rate.
I've been consciously watching the amount of bone I feed, as I'm planning my
first litter this fall. Tinks has been under homeopathic treatment for a
couple years now for various symptoms and overall, she's doing very well.
I'm pretty excited to have the first generation of raw fed, completely
unvax'd Kaos puppies coming true. You'll all hear (and see) all about them,
trust me :-)

On 9/5/07, Linda Norris <rodlinkennels@bellnet.ca> wrote:
>
> Hi BJ
> Yes we ended up having c sections with almost every Boxer litter. We did
> have Goldens as well and we didn't have c Sections with them but our puppies
> didn't thrive very well. Some due to poor vet care others we don't know just
> why.
> I consulted with a homeopath and she has been helping as well and a real
> prey diet was suggested. I haven't fed things like veggies or fruit for
> quite some time now but I was also told that I fed too much chicken.
> Linda
> Linda Norris
> rodlinkennels@bellnet..ca
> www.rodlinboxers.com
> home of naturally reared Boxers and Goldens
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
> Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (68)
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10a. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
Posted by: "Jen S" jennilist@gmail.com bowiegirl1979
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 10:00 am ((PDT))

On 9/4/07, Laura Atkinson <llatkinson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'd round to about a lb a day and add or subtract as needed. It's hard to
> decide when you don't know details, but unless he's some mutant giant dog
> breed (Great Dane, etc) a lb is as good a place to start as any, and add
> or
> subtract if he gets chubby or too lean.
>
Thanks! That's about what I've been giving him. His weight looks good,
though he acts like I never feed him. I gave him a BIG meal last night of a
2.3 pound chicken frame, plus a bit of liver, thinking it would take him a
while to eat it, and maybe he wouldn't eat it all. He inhaled everything in
less than 10 minutes. He's a chowhound, though, and will eat absolutely
anything I put in front of him (except for duck heads...he won't touch
those. Rabbit heads are ok though, lol.) I figure if I give him a pound
most days, and a slightly larger meal once or twice a week, as long as his
weight looks good he'll be ok. I just wanted some reassurance from all you
experts since he's the first puppy I've rawfed. I switched Loki, my picky
boy who will not eat for days and days if I give him something he doesn't
like, when he was a year and a half and full grown. Thank you!

Jen

--
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
-Mahatma Gandhi

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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11a. Re: San Diego Resources?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 10:15 am ((PDT))

Aren't all Bravo products ground? I would think it would be far less
expensive...and more appropriate...to buy nice whole foods from local
markets, a buying group, etc?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "diana zarate" <zarated5@sbcglobal.net>

> Hi BJ, I buy part of the meat at Noah's ark Pet wash (noahsarkpetwash.com)
in Pacific Beach. They sell a variety of raw dog food. The one I buy is from
Bravo brand (bravorawdiet.com) they can put in a big order for you and you
just pick it up there the day it arrives. The prices are very reasonable
also. Hope this helps.

Messages in this topic (7)
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12a. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "jackie" jackiehale1@bellsouth.net jackieoscar2000
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:06 am ((PDT))

I am with a Humane Society and we have coccidia in our shelter animals
quite a bit-you can BET these poor animals have never seen anything raw
for food (except maybe road kill while they were trying to survive
after being dumped), so I think your vet has no idea what he/she is
talking about. I agree with the statement that healthy animals will
shed the coccidia and not suffer from it...

I do have a question. I have been feeding raw since May and my dogs
look wonderful...best they have ever looked. One has had a yeast
problem in one ear since he was a pup. I have been hoping it would
clear on this new diet...any thoughts on how long it might take, if it
helps at all?

THanks!
Jackie

Messages in this topic (13)
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12b. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:12 am ((PDT))

Here's another interesting anectodal experience. When Robin came down to
move into Kaos, she came with her brothers and sister (they were just
visiting!). Since they were all crapinabag fed, my first move was to
immediately move Robin away from her littermates and start feeding her real
food and turn her into a Kaos dog. Over the course of the month that the
puppies were visiting, never once did they have anything but loose, sloppy,
disgusting stools (their Mom was here too, so she was on crapcleanup).
Robin, of course, being one of the Perfect Puppies of Kaos, also had perfect
stools, after the first day of switchover to real food. Another littermate,
now living in Colorado, and eating crapinabag, has never had a firm stool.
They all have recurring bouts of coccidia/giardia, whateveria and always
have the splats.

And yet, all of their owners think I'm nuts for feeding raw, 'cause it's
"not natural to listen to them crunch bones." <sigh>

On 9/5/07, Linda Norris <rodlinkennels@bellnet.ca> wrote:
>
> Interesting. I have lots of experience with Coccidia We had it with every
> litter of puppies and since we went raw only one litter has had
> positive coccidia results and was cleared up very quickly. The raw diet
> helps build a strong immune system which can shed these parasites .
> My experience anyway.
> Linda Norris

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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12c. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:23 am ((PDT))

"coccidia/giardia, "

Not caused from raw.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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12d. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:41 am ((PDT))

No, they're not...but a healthier immune system (like a dog on a diet of
real food) will deal with 'em better, which was my obviously unclear point.

On 9/5/07, Tina Berry <k9baron@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "coccidia/giardia, "
>
> Not caused from raw.
> --
> Tina Berry - MT
> Kriegshund German Shepherds
> Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
> www.kriegshundgsds.com
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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13a. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:06 am ((PDT))

>How can I fix her little problem

Hi.If more meat,or giving liver did not help.Just go for walk.

Walking encourage bowel movement.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (2)
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14a. Re: Trimming...
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:06 am ((PDT))

About the typo? Yep <grin>. The dry skin has *decreased* substantially
though :-)

On 9/4/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
>
> "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...> wrote:
> I'm seeing a
> > 100% increase in dry skin since adding a meal of lamb flank at least
> once a
> > week.
> *****
> You sure about this?
> Chris O
>
>
>
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--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

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Messages in this topic (9)
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15. Best type of whole fish?
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:23 am ((PDT))

I know wild salmon is probably the best, but on the affordable range, I have the option of purchasing the following for pretty cheap and I was wondering if one variety is better (higher in omegas) than another?

Indian Mackeral
Cod
Pollock
Smelt
Round scad

Any thoughts would be much appreciated!
Thanks!

Sonja

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