[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12003

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Salmon oils
From: bunchodogs

2a. Re: Best type of whole fish?
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
From: wandaful
3b. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
From: Laura Atkinson
3c. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
From: Jen S

4a. Chicken Liver
From: ive_anbio10
4b. Re: Chicken Liver
From: costrowski75
4c. Re: Chicken Liver
From: Howard Salob

5a. Re: Goop in eyes
From: meg_helmes

6a. BYB Lab?
From: Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)
6b. Re: BYB Lab?
From: Sonja

7a. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
From: Tina Berry
7b. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

8a. Re: San Diego Resources?
From: diana zarate
8b. Re: San Diego Resources?
From: costrowski75
8c. Re: San Diego Resources?
From: Maggie Smith

9a. feeding puppies
From: Michael Moore

10.1. Re: new member
From: Michael Moore

11. Breeding
From: Laura Atkinson

12a. It has been a month on raw!
From: erica
12b. Re: It has been a month on raw!
From: Andrea

13a. Re: Color change in coat
From: Patricia Masters

14a. Re: emu, ostrich ribs
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

15a. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
From: beckie716
15b. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
From: Olga

Messages
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1. Salmon oils
Posted by: "bunchodogs" bunchodogs@hotmail.com bunchodogs
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:42 am ((PDT))

Hello All,

For those of you who supplement with Salmon oil, do you think one
brand is better than another? I have been using Grizzly, but read the
information on Timberwolf and it sounds like it may be better because
of processing to remove the "junk" in it.

Linda

Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Re: Best type of whole fish?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:47 am ((PDT))

"Sonja" <ladyver@...> wrote:>
I have the option of purchasing the following for pretty cheap and I
was wondering if one variety is better (higher in omegas) than
another?
>
> Indian Mackeral
> Cod
> Pollock
> Smelt
> Round scad

Indian mackerel is probably your best bet. I suggest shopping for
whole sardines as well. Here are some links to help you compare
fish. Please consider Google a fundamental research tool when
looking for answers.

http://www.tufts.edu/med/nutrition-infection/hiv/health_omega3.html

http://www.annecollins.com/dietary-fat/fish-oils-fatty-acids.htm

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/nutritional_tools/omega3.shtml

http://fn.cfs.purdue.edu/fish4health/NutritionalContentofFish/omega3.p
df

Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
Posted by: "wandaful" rondarosa@ftcnet.net rondaros
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:56 am ((PDT))

=:+) I want a rabbit with feathers!!!
wanda
: a whole rabbit with feathers and all really is food....he wouldn't touch the
: thing!
:
: Jen
:

Messages in this topic (7)
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3b. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 12:04 pm ((PDT))

I'm not sure a whole rabbit with feathers really is "real food" ;-)

On 9/5/07, Jen S <jennilist@gmail.com> wrote:

Now if I can just convince my big guy that
a whole rabbit with feathers and all really is food....he wouldn't touch the
thing!

Jen

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

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Messages in this topic (7)
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3c. Re: ok I am in love with Raw feeding
Posted by: "Jen S" jennilist@gmail.com bowiegirl1979
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

On 9/5/07, wandaful <rondarosa@ftcnet.net> wrote:
>
> =:+) I want a rabbit with feathers!!!
> wanda
> : a whole rabbit with feathers and all really is food....he wouldn't touch
> the
> : thing!

LOL, that should have said a whole DUCK with feathers. :)

Jen

--
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
-Mahatma Gandhi

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4a. Chicken Liver
Posted by: "ive_anbio10" ive_anbio10@yahoo.ca ive_anbio10
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:57 am ((PDT))

Hey everyone, I am now getting used to buying Raw!!
I must say I do get odd looks when I go to the Local F**d B***cs
especially when I whip out the calculator...I just bought a lot of
chicken and chicken liver for 2.88/kg.
Is this a good price?
I was just wondering, if I should continue to buy chicken liver, or
just stick to chicken quarters?
Also, should I be removing the fatty skin when feeding?
My dogs ideal weight is 90lbs so should I be feeding 1.8lbs a day? (2%)
Should I feed Once a day, 2 times a day, or 3 times a day?

Thanks
Ive

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Chicken Liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 1:33 pm ((PDT))

"ive_anbio10" <ive_anbio10@...> wrote:
>
> Hey everyone, I am now getting used to buying Raw!!
> I must say I do get odd looks when I go to the Local F**d B***cs
> especially when I whip out the calculator...I just bought a lot of
> chicken and chicken liver for 2.88/kg.
> Is this a good price?
*****
High sale price in the US, decent everyday price. Here in northern
California, everyday price is $1.59/lb or worse, your price converts I
think to $1.30-something.

> I was just wondering, if I should continue to buy chicken liver, or
> just stick to chicken quarters?
*****
Well, you shouldn't stick chicken quarters indefinitely. You can feed
chicken quarters to start with and you can always use them, but you
should also work on getting more of the chicken onto the menu--
wing/breast quarters, half birds, backs, whole birds. So yes, you
should also continue to buy liver. And hearts too.

Whether you feed chicken liver or some other critter's liver, your dogs
will continue to need liver. Not a lot, not all the time; but
definitely they need liver.

> Also, should I be removing the fatty skin when feeding?
*****
Some people remove it at the beginning to moderate loose stools, some
people just feed it. Depends on the dog, actually. There's no
official need to though, and if your dogs digest it well, feed it.

> My dogs ideal weight is 90lbs so should I be feeding 1.8lbs a day?
(2%)
*****
This is as good a place to start as any. Expect to adjust, adjust,
adjust to get it right and keep it right. If the dog is an easy keeper
you may feed less. If the dog blows through calories, you'll probably
need to increase the amount.

> Should I feed Once a day, 2 times a day, or 3 times a day?
*****
Yes.

Truly, it's between you and the dog. I usually feed my healthy adults
every other day; sometimes I feed once a day, sometimes I'll feed twice
a day if the dog's health warrants it. My 11mo is eating once day
still, that may last for a while or not, I just don't know yet.

I prefer to let the size of the food determine the feeding schedule. I
also prefer to feed big, complicated meals that naturally seem to call
for an "every other day" plan. But when I am not feeding Big Food,
there's no real reason to skip a day, so I don't. Sometimes when Big
Food is pretty much a carcass, there may be two days between feedings.

Right now you should feed how you feel comfortable feeding as long as
it also works for your dog. However, don't feed "bowl food" simply
because you think you must. I think you should consider feeding
outside the bowl as often as possible.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: Chicken Liver
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

Dear Moderator,

Silly question- but is liverwurst okay? I think it is raw.

Sincerely,

Howard

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
"ive_anbio10" <ive_anbio10@...> wrote:
>
> Hey everyone, I am now getting used to buying Raw!!
> I must say I do get odd looks when I go to the Local F**d B***cs
> especially when I whip out the calculator...I just bought a lot of
> chicken and chicken liver for 2.88/kg.
> Is this a good price?
*****
High sale price in the US, decent everyday price. Here in northern
California, everyday price is $1.59/lb or worse, your price converts I
think to $1.30-something.

> I was just wondering, if I should continue to buy chicken liver, or
> just stick to chicken quarters?
*****
Well, you shouldn't stick chicken quarters indefinitely. You can feed
chicken quarters to start with and you can always use them, but you
should also work on getting more of the chicken onto the menu--
wing/breast quarters, half birds, backs, whole birds. So yes, you
should also continue to buy liver. And hearts too.

Whether you feed chicken liver or some other critter's liver, your dogs
will continue to need liver. Not a lot, not all the time; but
definitely they need liver.

> Also, should I be removing the fatty skin when feeding?
*****
Some people remove it at the beginning to moderate loose stools, some
people just feed it. Depends on the dog, actually. There's no
official need to though, and if your dogs digest it well, feed it.

> My dogs ideal weight is 90lbs so should I be feeding 1.8lbs a day?
(2%)
*****
This is as good a place to start as any. Expect to adjust, adjust,
adjust to get it right and keep it right. If the dog is an easy keeper
you may feed less. If the dog blows through calories, you'll probably
need to increase the amount.

> Should I feed Once a day, 2 times a day, or 3 times a day?
*****
Yes.

Truly, it's between you and the dog. I usually feed my healthy adults
every other day; sometimes I feed once a day, sometimes I'll feed twice
a day if the dog's health warrants it. My 11mo is eating once day
still, that may last for a while or not, I just don't know yet.

I prefer to let the size of the food determine the feeding schedule. I
also prefer to feed big, complicated meals that naturally seem to call
for an "every other day" plan. But when I am not feeding Big Food,
there's no real reason to skip a day, so I don't. Sometimes when Big
Food is pretty much a carcass, there may be two days between feedings.

Right now you should feed how you feel comfortable feeding as long as
it also works for your dog. However, don't feed "bowl food" simply
because you think you must. I think you should consider feeding
outside the bowl as often as possible.
Chris O

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

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Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Goop in eyes
Posted by: "meg_helmes" mhelmes@gmail.com meg_helmes
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 12:16 pm ((PDT))

> >>>My question is my papillon now has
> yellowish white goop coming out of her eyes.<<<

Prior to Raw feeding my dog Ruby, she also had eye boogers every day,
especially in the mornings. It seemed like they got worse during the
first few weeks of raw, but after a month or so, she doesn't have any
problems at all. I am not sure if it was totally diet related that
they have cleared up and are now much better than before, but it
certainly didn't hurt.

Someone else suggested allergies, especially inhalent/seasonal
allergies could be the cause of this. My whole family (dog and people)
have been bothered by seasonal allergies the past few weeks.

~Meg

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. BYB Lab?
Posted by: "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)" carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com carolyn.garnaas
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 12:27 pm ((PDT))

What is it?

Carolyn J. Garnaas

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Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: BYB Lab?
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 12:49 pm ((PDT))

BYB = Back Yard Breeder

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 12:34 pm ((PDT))

No, they're not...but a healthier immune system (like a dog on a diet of
real food) will deal with 'em better, which was my obviously unclear point."

Absolutely - one of mine had girardia and the vet of course wanted to
medicate; I said no thanks. He kicked it on his own - took another fecal 3
weeks later and it was gone.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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7b. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

I rehab birds and they always have cocidia, and shed it in the poop, and dogs eat bird poop all the time, and that seems more like the culprit than the diet. I would ask the vet to produce the proof and the support for your records. Just to show the rest of the group too. Keep the faith, your doing great.
Jeni

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Messages in this topic (15)
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8a. Re: San Diego Resources?
Posted by: "diana zarate" zarated5@sbcglobal.net bulliegirl55
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 12:49 pm ((PDT))

They are ground but Iike I said that is only part of the meat that I buy. I also give her chicken leg quarters, pork neck bones...etc. Also, the Bravo meat is not that expensive I get 5 pounds for $13.00 which lasts a whole month since that is not the only thing I feed.

Diana

Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote: Aren't all Bravo products ground? I would think it would be far less
expensive...and more appropriate...to buy nice whole foods from local
markets, a buying group, etc?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "diana zarate" <zarated5@sbcglobal.net>

> Hi BJ, I buy part of the meat at Noah's ark Pet wash (noahsarkpetwash.com)
in Pacific Beach. They sell a variety of raw dog food. The one I buy is from
Bravo brand (bravorawdiet.com) they can put in a big order for you and you
just pick it up there the day it arrives. The prices are very reasonable
also. Hope this helps.

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8b. Re: San Diego Resources?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 1:37 pm ((PDT))

diana zarate <zarated5@...> wrote:
Also, the Bravo meat is not that expensive I get 5 pounds for $13.00
which lasts a whole month since that is not the only thing I feed.
*****
Oh my.
Not that expensive?
Anything over a buck a pound is getting pricey for me and $2.60 US is
fairly breathtaking.

I hope for your money you're getting more than just ground up meat.
Chris O

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8c. Re: San Diego Resources?
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:04 pm ((PDT))

you betcha - you get lots of veggies and grains and sometimes bones to
compliment that ground up meat :)

Sorry, I couldn't resist - I wanted to reply to the OP but thought I
should probably wait till somebody else did first. Thanks Chris!

Maggie
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>

> Also, the Bravo meat is not that expensive I get 5 pounds for
$13.00
> *****
> Oh my.
> Not that expensive?
> Anything over a buck a pound is getting pricey for me and $2.60 US
is
> fairly breathtaking.
>
> I hope for your money you're getting more than just ground up meat.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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9a. feeding puppies
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 1:29 pm ((PDT))

>>I never ever measure the amount of food I'm giving my dogs or pups.
Pups get to each as much as they like, and I've never had one over eat
yet.<<

Jane -- I had to LOL at this -- while I don't ever measure food either, I truly believe my Corgis would eat until they explode. My puppies (4 mos. already!) were getting quite pudgy because I tried to let them eat their fill. My conclusion: Corgis are never, ever "full."

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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10.1. Re: new member
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 1:41 pm ((PDT))

>>I have discovered however that the raw diet I was following has been detremental to our breeding program.
So any breeders out there - I'd love any help and ideas to help us produce healthy puppies born naturally.
We don't vaccinate and use homeopathic treatments when they aren't well.<<

Wow, Linda, I am truly interested & curious abou this. One of the benefits I expect from a raw diet *is* the improvement in health of breeding animals and therefore, the puppies. While my last two litters (the only ones from rawfed dams) have been born via c-section, I chalk that up to my breed being predisposed to same. I personally have seen an increase in litter size (prior to rawfeeding, our litters were 3, 2, and 1, and since rawfeeding, 4 and 9).
Would you mind sharing your experience? I hope Jane will jump in here, as she's been breeding and rearing NR litters longer than anyone else I know.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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11. Breeding
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 1:46 pm ((PDT))

Have your litters historically required c-sections, prior to feeding raw?

What breed do you have that is pre-disposed to c-sections? I know many of
the smush-faced breeds are. Are you feeding too much bone while the bitch
is in whelp? Have you had your bitch under the care of a GOOD homeopath?

There are so many factors, we should probably head over to rawchat, 'cause I
know we're gonna go WAY off topic with this one. Or we can go join
rawbreeders and bring that list back to life <grin>.

On 9/5/07, Michael Moore <m-tak@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >>I have discovered however that the raw diet I was following has been
> detremental to our breeding program.
> So any breeders out there - I'd love any help and ideas to help us produce
> healthy puppies born naturally.
> We don't vaccinate and use homeopathic treatments when they aren't well.<<
>
> Wow, Linda, I am truly interested & curious abou this. One of the
> benefits I expect from a raw diet *is* the improvement in health of breeding
> animals and therefore, the puppies. While my last two litters (the only
> ones from rawfed dams) have been born via c-section, I chalk that up to my
> breed being predisposed to same. I personally have seen an increase in
> litter size (prior to rawfeeding, our litters were 3, 2, and 1, and since
> rawfeeding, 4 and 9).
> Would you mind sharing your experience? I hope Jane will jump in here,
> as she's been breeding and rearing NR litters longer than anyone else I
> know.
>
>
> -- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden
> rescue) in NW Ohio
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

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12a. It has been a month on raw!
Posted by: "erica" ericagordon@sbcglobal.net ericagsweet
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:04 pm ((PDT))

I just wanted to check in to say that Sophie is doing really well on
raw. She has had chicken leg quarters, pork, venison & is just
beginning to get a taste of bear the last 2 days. She is starting to
look chunky so I have decreased her amounts a little. I think I enjoy
watching her eat so much that I over did it a bit. Today I got my
hands on salmon oil capsules, because it sounds like it is highly
reccomended & she is still itchy. She has always been an itchy girl &
I wouldn't be surprised if she always is. Is 1,000 mg per day enough
for a dog that is about 55 lbs? I on't know where to find dosage
info, lead the way please. How do you give it? I smeared it with a
little peanut butter & she gobbled it right up, is that ok? Soon we
will begin adding liver which makes up 5% of organ meat, correct?
What options are there for the other 5 percent? Most organ meats
count as muscle from what I gather. I just need a little guidance on
the organs.

Thanks!
Erica

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12b. Re: It has been a month on raw!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:37 pm ((PDT))

Glad everything is going well for both of you!

> Is 1,000 mg per day enough for a dog that is about 55 lbs?

Most of the fish oil brands I have tried end up with about a capsule
per 20lbs of dog for maintenance doses. There is a guideline
somewhere, but I don't have my fish oil cheat sheet with me right now,
I'm sure someone else <cough>Chris<cough> will post the actual numbers.

> How do you give it? I smeared it with a little peanut butter & she
> gobbled it right up, is that ok?

My boys take a gel capsule like it is candy. In fact, they get all
excited and sit expectantly at my feet whenever they hear me shake the
bottle. See if your dog will eat them whole and it will make your life
much easier. If you have liquid oil, you can squirt it on food or
right in their mouth.

> Soon we will begin adding liver which makes up 5% of organ meat,
> correct?

Organs should make up around 10% of the total diet, up to half of the
organ can be liver.

> What options are there for the other 5 percent? Most organ meats
> count as muscle from what I gather.

The other 50% or so of the organs can be anything you can get your
hands on. Kidney, spleen (melts), thymus, lungs, eyeballs, brain. . .
Heart and tongue are considered meat for feeding purposes. I suppose
green tripe could go in either category. For the most part my
guideline is squidgy and icky = organ.

Andrea

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13a. Re: Color change in coat
Posted by: "Patricia Masters" mpenny007@gmail.com mpenny_007
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Marie. I don't know the answer, but have experienced somewhat of a
similar phenomenon with my male Boston. He is brindle, which we knew, but
his brindle has gotten much more pronounced(a beautiful golden color!) So,
I'm thinkin(no professional opinion, of course) that it is the result of
better nutrition.
Congrats on the success of your new pups' diets! Happy health!
Dawn
with Max, Missy, Paco, and Simmy(the Siamese kitty who is 17 years young) in
Louisiana

On 9/4/07, marieandthefuzzybunch <marie@hotlinkhr.com> wrote:
>
> This is the interesting thing that is
> happening: Pat, who is a steel gray color, has developed several (6-8)
> very dark, nearly black patches of fur. These are about quarter
> sized. We just noticed them about a week ago. It is too early to
> really say whether they are increasing. Is this just a result of
> improved nutrition? I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has had a
> similar experience. Thanks!
>
>
>

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14a. Re: emu, ostrich ribs
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:13 pm ((PDT))

the legs have alot of good stuff inside that the dogs seem to like but they don't eat the bones, but the ribs are great for eating. Like chips, they love those!
Jeni

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15a. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
Posted by: "beckie716" beckie716@yahoo.com beckie716
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:36 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>

> Hi.If more meat,or giving liver did not help.Just go for walk.
>
> Walking encourage bowel movement.
>
> yassy

Thanks Yassy. I just got back from a walk and there was no "movement".
She strained, but nothing came out. She still is walking ok and acts
normal.

My daughter told me yesterday that she went a little. It was still
stuck to her backside, with a blade of grass. It was really really
dry, and had a lot of bone fragments.

She's not eating any meats, but did eat small pieces of frozen liver.
I also googled dog constipation and found an article that said to give
her some vegi oil, olive oil etc. I have tried the vegi oil and will
try more liver today.

Beckie
>
> ---------------------------------
> Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
> Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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15b. Re: Please help, My dog is constipated
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

When is the last time she had a bowel movement?

When she finally does "go", her poop will probably be pretty liquidy
because of all the things you're feeding her to soften her stool.
Nothing to be alarmed about, just a result of what she ate, but
thought I'd mention it so you don't worry if/when you see it.

Olga

Messages in this topic (4)
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