[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11998

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Need Advice on what to order?
From: tottime47

2a. Cape May - NJ
From: tottime47
2b. Re: Cape May - NJ
From: Giselle
2c. Re: Cape May - NJ
From: tottime@aol.com

3a. hip dysplasia
From: scarebetty
3b. Re: hip dysplasia
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3c. Re: hip dysplasia
From: wandaful

4a. Re: Poop issue
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: Poop issue
From: Laurie Swanson
4c. Re: Poop issue
From: vickies_28
4d. Re: Poop issue
From: Laurie Swanson

5a. Re: Hacking question....
From: Giselle

6a. Please reassure me.
From: girlndocs
6b. Re: Please reassure me.
From: Laurie Swanson
6c. Re: Please reassure me.
From: Olga
6d. Re: Please reassure me.
From: girlndocs

7a. Re: New to the concept of raw.....
From: Giselle

8a. Re: raw for liver disease
From: Sandee Lee

9.1. Re: New To Raw
From: Marcella Burgess
9.2. Re: New To Raw
From: Giselle

10a. Fed Only Raw for Four Years - Cannon Butt
From: Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)
10b. Re: Fed Only Raw for Four Years - Cannon Butt
From: Giselle

11a. Re: questions from newbie
From: carnesbill

12a. How much to feed my Dane
From: Amanda Berthelette

13. amount to feed puppies--why so much?
From: Laurie Swanson

Messages
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1a. Re: Need Advice on what to order?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 11:18 am ((PDT))

Hi Brandi,

How about some beef or pork hearts tongues or beef cheeks.
Any parts of the pork would be good, pork necks, snouts even.

Sounds like they are a FDA inspected plant so there are some
parts they can't sell you buy law, but you can still ask, just in
case I'm wrong, lol

I was thinking about green tripe......

Good luck!

Carol

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...>
wrote:
>
> Someone suggested that I look in the phone book for meat processing
> plants which i did. Called a few and emailed one of them -this is
> what she responded with when I emailed her and told her that I had
my
> dogs on a RAW diet...and that I was looking into maybe buying in
bulk

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Cape May - NJ
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 11:18 am ((PDT))

Giselle,

Would like to send you a quick post offsite if OK?

I have a friend out there........

Carol

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi, Chris!
> YQW!
> Bea is a (mostly) black Newfy, 6 yo rescue. She came to me at 2 yo,
> started eating raw and never looked back! ; )
> Cape May County here.
> TC
> G
>
> > Thank You, What is BEA I am also located in NJ. Thanks Again for
> all the
> > info... Chris
>

Messages in this topic (18)
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2b. Re: Cape May - NJ
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 12:59 pm ((PDT))

'K!
G

> Giselle,
>
> Would like to send you a quick post offsite if OK?
>
> I have a friend out there........
>
> Carol

Messages in this topic (18)
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2c. Re: Cape May - NJ
Posted by: "tottime@aol.com" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 1:29 pm ((PDT))

Hi Giselle,
I have a good friend near Cape May. Family owns Bud's Market on 3rd ave in
Stone Harbor.
Are you close to her or ever been there? I know when I was out there several
years ago we drove over to Cape May to shop and it didn't seem to be very
far.......

Just nosy & since she owns a store, lol...........

She has pets but can't get her to go raw,.......all that meat available,
lol....

Carol



In a message dated 9/4/2007 3:00:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
megan.giselle@gmail.com writes:

'K!
G

> Giselle,
>
> Would like to send you a quick post offsite if OK?
>
> I have a friend out there.......
>
> Carol

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
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3a. hip dysplasia
Posted by: "scarebetty" scarebetty@yahoo.com scarebetty
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 11:19 am ((PDT))

Hi all,
I have 2 questions, hope some one can help!

1. My sister in law was here over the week-end with her dog-George-who
is a pit bull x, one yr old. He has skin conditions which the vet
treated with antibiotics and what I think is pretty severe hip
dysplasia. A couple of weeks ago I sent her info on prey model diet
and she said that she would look into it. This weekend, I saw how bad
George's hips were. He played and played with my 2 yr old Lacy and he
could hardly walk when he left. I am now convinced that I need to
convince her to change his diet to prey model. I searched the
archives and found some info, but it was time consuming as I get
distracted reading all the posts that come up!!! Anyway, if someone
out there has personal stories or any 'scientific' (hate that word!!!)
info that I can give to her I would really appreciate it. I KNOW that
he will do better on the prey model diet, just need something besides
my opinion to give to her.

2. I switched my dog -Lucy- to prey model diet when she was 1 mo into
her first pregnancy. I went with chicken first and then on to pork.
She had a little problem with the switch, but from what I have read
here, just normal things with switching. Funny, but my older dog had
no problem. Anyway, Lucy had 7 pups. The female died within 2 days.
I lost another pup at 3 weeks. I bottle fed him for most of his
life. He was cleft palete which I found out about when he was
probably 2 weeks old. He died from fluid in his lungs, which I know
came from me bottle feeding him and him inhaling the milk into his
lungs. He never grew either. I dont know anything about that, he
just never grew no matter what I fed him or how often I fed him.
Anyway, my question is, were the problems with the pups caused by me
switching Lucy to raw during her pregnancy?

I appreciate any help!
Betty

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: hip dysplasia
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 12:23 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/4/2007 10:20:37 AM Pacific Standard Time,
scarebetty@yahoo.com writes:

Anyway, my question is, were the problems with the pups caused by me
switching Lucy to raw during her pregnancy?

Betty,

Simple answer is NO.. feeding can NOT change genetic problems, no matter how
long you've been feeding raw. Sorry, can't blame that on the diet, and you
also know that that isn't a breeding you want to repeat.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: hip dysplasia
Posted by: "wandaful" rondarosa@ftcnet.net rondaros
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 1:19 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE MOVE THIS TOPIC TO RAWCHAT.***

Betty,
I will be really interested in the information you get on the hip dysplasia. My pit x has the same problem and we have had to limit visits from our younger more active grandoggie for that reason. Anyway, not to get off topic....that is why I became interested in trying to switch her to raw.
wanda
----- Original Message -----
From: "scarebetty" <scarebetty@yahoo.com>
To: <rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:55 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] hip dysplasia

: Hi all,
: I have 2 questions, hope some one can help!
:
: 1. My sister in law was here over the week-end with her dog-George-who
: is a pit bull x, one yr old. He has skin conditions which the vet
: treated with antibiotics and what I think is pretty severe hip
: dysplasia. A couple of weeks ago I sent her info on prey model diet
: and she said that she would look into it. This weekend, I saw how bad
: George's hips were. He played and played with my 2 yr old Lacy and he
: could hardly walk when he left. I am now convinced that I need to
: convince her to change his diet to prey model. I searched the
: archives and found some info, but it was time consuming as I get
: distracted reading all the posts that come up!!! Anyway, if someone
: out there has personal stories or any 'scientific' (hate that word!!!)
: info that I can give to her I would really appreciate it. I KNOW that
: he will do better on the prey model diet, just need something besides
: my opinion to give to her.

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: Poop issue
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 11:26 am ((PDT))

"vickies_28" <vickies_28@...> wrote:
> What about that he doesn't seem to like beef?
*****
If he really doesn't like beef (and your description doesn't
necessarily indicate that), don't feed beef. I mean, you need to
provide red meat but beef doesn't have to be it. Also, he may do
better on a different source of beef, or a different cut of beef, or
maybe with a hunka beef instead of a bowl of the stuff, or maybe he'd
prefer to be pulling it off a bone.

I think it's too early to tell if he "likes" beef, or even how well
he does on it.

Only after 20 or so min when I handed him a piece he
> ate it and finished the rest
*****
This sounds more like a failure to "get it" than a dislike. Dislike
generally stays dislike regardless of what finagling the human tries.

And that was the day when he did not
> poop and the day after had mucusy dark stools. Could it be that he
had
> a bit of a tummy problem?
*****
Boneless meat is highly bio-available. It may well be your kid
simply had no need to defecate. On the face of it there is nothing
wrong with a poopless day. It is only when the lack of poop is
accompanied by physical distress (especially unproductive pooping
attempts) that maybe perhaps some human intervention is needed.
Don't rush to judgement.

The mucus is a natural response to irritation; hard to say what food
caused the irriation, or even if it was his food. I think a nice
calm wait and see attitude is your best bet.

> Should I not feed the heart at all - he didn't seem to like it
etiher.
*****
Maybe not now and maybe not beef heart but eventually you will want
to be able to rely on heart as a nutritious, available and generally
affordable red meat. Try a chicken heart. Fry feeding tiny pieces
of it. Try mixing chopped heart with some chopped meat. Try
freezing it. Be creative, be patient. Heart is not often rejected
unequivocally.

> Also, I am worried that if I feed only chicken (this is what he
> prefers) that he will not get the variety and nutrition he needs
for
> growth.
*****
No, he can't have chicken ala chicken forever. Yes, you rely on
chicken for some time when you are starting out. A few months if
necessary of mostly chicken is not likely to do any damage. Since
you are NO where near the "throwing up one's hands in frustration"
stage, I suggest you don't worry about having to supplement a
lifetime of chicken ala chicken. Focus instead on introducing bits
of new flavors and textures and smells. Think "oh look, here's some
pork with your chicken, oh hey I found this nice bit of beef to go
with your chicken."

> I give him fish oil every now and then with a piece of bread that
he
> seems to like, but woudn't eat the fish itself. Should I start with
a
> probiotic?
*****
Please just calm down and give your dog a chance to acclimate. Fish
oil is good, you can give that daily if you choose. Ditch the bread
and everything else that might be distracting him from his good raw
food. He doesn't need to eat fish now, he may like it later or he
may not. Fish is not crucial.

And no, you don't need to give him a probiotic, he's not doing
anything to indicate a need.

What you need to do is breathe. I think you've forgotten that part.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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4b. Re: Poop issue
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 11:59 am ((PDT))

He may have had a bit of upset tummy--maybe not. Not pooping for a
day is fine, though. My dog goes much less frequently and regularly
now. Also keep in mind that this is all new and he might need some
time to realize these things are foods and that they're yummy.
Different meats in different presentations (cut up, on the bone,
etc.) may each require a slight "getting used to" period. Don't
worry if he doesn't immediately scarf every meal. He'll probably
soon figure out this is good stuff. But if you are anxious and
instantly try another food if he's not excited about a certain one
he'll learn that there might be something better coming and maybe he
should wait and see what else there is. :-) If you try beef several
times, a few different ways (put it down, leave it for 15-20 mins.,
ignore him, let him figure it out) and he still doesn't eat it, then
maybe he really doesn't like it. But maybe he's got the idea now
that he ate it after you handed him a piece. You can also try goat,
lamb, venison--there are other options for red meat. Pork, too.

I don't see why you would need any supplements unless you find he has
a health issue that would benefit from it. Some people do fish oil
to balance out the omega 6's that are so high in commercial grain-fed
meats, some don't.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vickies_28" <vickies_28@...>
wrote:
>
> Thanks
> What about that he doesn't seem to like beef? I put a bowl of beef
> chunks in front of him yesterday and he just looked at it and
didn't
> atetmpt to it. Only after 20 or so min when I handed him a piece he
> ate it and finished the rest.

Messages in this topic (9)
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4c. Re: Poop issue
Posted by: "vickies_28" vickies_28@yahoo.com vickies_28
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 12:01 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. TRIM YOUR POSTS LEST THEY BE DELETED.***

My question is, how are you feeding beef? Straight from fridge?
Frozen? Room Temp?

I feed right out of the fridge. And the cut I gave last time was
brisket, so it did have so visible fat on it. I don't think he was
waiting to be hand fed, he grabs the chicken right off my hand and
eats it. I have him just a small amount of heart mixed in with beef.
Will try to mix chiken next time.
i was just following the rule some people mentioned around here: one
protein at a time.

Thank for your advice
Vickie

Messages in this topic (9)
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4d. Re: Poop issue
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 12:09 pm ((PDT))

Hi Vickie,

Just to clarify--I believe the one protein at a time idea is just to
keep things simple when starting out in case you have issues you know
what's causing them. But once you know your dog does well on a
particular meat, you can mix that meat with something else or add a new
one--then if there's a problem it's probably due to the new meat. And
of course, you can be even less rigid about it if you want.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vickies_28" <vickies_28@...> wrote:
>
> i was just following the rule some people mentioned around here: one
> protein at a time.

Messages in this topic (9)
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5a. Re: Hacking question....
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 11:30 am ((PDT))

Hi, Crystal!
Think of any contact with other dogs that happened more
recently than that.
"Kennel Cough in dogs will stimulate a coarse, dry, hacking cough about
**** three to seven days after the dog is initially infected.****
It sounds as if the dog needs to "clear it's throat" and the cough
will be triggered by any extra activity or exercise. Many dogs that
acquire Kennel Cough will cough every few minutes, all day long.
Their general state of health and alertness will be unaffected, they
usually have no rise in temperature, and do not lose their appetite.
The signs of Canine Cough usually will last from 7 to 21 days and can
be very annoying for the dog and the dog's owners. Life threatening
cases of Kennel Cough are extremely rare and a vast majority of dogs
that acquire the infection will recover on their own with no
medication. Cough suppressants and occasionally antibiotics are the
usual treatment selections"

Just realized, this is not raw chat! OT for raw feeding, I'm afraid.
GO HERE for any OT Qs you have.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/
See you there.
TC
G

> Yes, they went to the vet about a month ago. They stayed most of the
> day. Could it be from that...a month ago?
>
> Thanks,
> Crystal
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Please reassure me.
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 11:44 am ((PDT))

Hi all,

My name is Kristin and I brought my Lab mix, Zoe, home September 1.
Before I started looking for a dog I read and researched about
prey-model raw. I had a thawed out chicken breast quarter ready for
her with the neat ribboned a little and I was prepared for the
possibility that she might hold out a while before trying it.

Well, we're still on the same dang chicken breast quarter. I bring it
out morning and evening for about 15 minutes and she just is not
getting the concept. On day 2 I seared it briefly in some bacon grease
(because I kne she liked bacon) and she did eat a boneless piece that
I tore off for her and seemed really interested in the rest of it, but
no go.

What she does instead is try to bury it (under her blanket, her lead,
the doormat -- very amusing), and then whine for a while. She seems to
just not be able to get past how strange it is.

I'm sure she's getting plenty hungry. I just feel like I need a little
moral support here, because I never imagined it would go on for almost
4 days with no end in sight. She's mixed with Rott so I'm sure she's
capable of downing a breast quarter in a couple bites or so if she
wanted to. And I'm sure her teeth are in good condition and she
doesn't seem to have any ear or jaw issues. She's the model of a
healthy active dog.

Thanks,

Kristin

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Please reassure me.
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 12:03 pm ((PDT))

Hi Kristin,

How old is Zoe? I would probably just try boneless for a meal or two,
possibly even chopped up, to give her more of an idea of what's going
on! Other ideas: warm it up in a baggie in warm water, sprinkle with
some parmesan cheese or pour a little broth on top. Sounds like she's
frustrated. I would give her a little bit more of a break, what with
the transition to a new home and all. If she continues to struggle
with bones, make sure her teeth are ok.

Good luck,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "girlndocs" <girlndocs@...> wrote:
> Well, we're still on the same dang chicken breast quarter. I bring it
> out morning and evening for about 15 minutes and she just is not
> getting the concept.

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: Please reassure me.
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 12:07 pm ((PDT))

Hi Kristin,

We're here for the support. :)

It sounds like Zoe just doesn't get that this is food yet. Or maybe
she's not liking the chicken? Do you happen to have some beef that
you could let her try? What about if you cut a piece of meat off the
breast and give her?

One of my dogs wouldn't eat pieces that were too big (in his
assessment) at first. I'm sure that she will eat eventually, and if
she is crated at all, then that's where I'd feed her (no place to bury
things, lol). I think the 15 min time limit is perfect, you don't
want to spend the next 10+ years with a picky eater. ;) But it's ok
to try a different item at the next meal, in my opinion.

One thing that most dogs can't pass up, is when you "accidentally"
drop something off the kitchen counter onto the floor. You can try
that if you get desperate, it might get her started. :D

Good luck!
Olga

Messages in this topic (4)
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6d. Re: Please reassure me.
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 12:24 pm ((PDT))

Good news! Just after I posted, I heard a funny crunching sound in the
kitchen and there was Zoe eating the wing from the breast quarter. (I
had removed it yesterday to try and get her to tackle a smaller piece,
and this morning I froze the chicken because I remembered some dogs
really like that, so I'd offered it to her again at lunchtime.)

She did a really good job of crunching it up -- I watched closely
because I knew it was a smaller than ideal piece for a dog her size.

She left the rest of the breast. I guess the large size is
intimidating. Do you think I should cut it or tear it up for her? I
just worry about making artificially sharp edges to the bones or
making it possible for her to gulp them down in some way that's not
great for her.

She's 1 1/2 years old.

Thanks,

Kristin

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: New to the concept of raw.....
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 11:53 am ((PDT))

Hi, Ginger!
Welcome to the raw side! : ) We've been getting a lot of
people like you, disillusioned by the hazards and impersonality of
feeding commercial food.

I've got a bunch of recommendations for a new-to-raw person like yourself;

1. You want to start with 2-3% of your dog's ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT
weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less
if your dog gets 'fluffy' over the space of a few weeks. You might
start out by weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps
don't continue once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding
raw. Tiny, toy, puppies, pregnant or very active dogs might need as
much as 4-5% or more - very large, giant, overweight or couch potato
dogs might need less than 2% to maintain.

2. Ditch the kibble â€" there’s been plenty of discussion on this list
about why kibble and raw don't mix; just let it suffice that your dog
can reap the benefits of raw faster and more completely if you donate
the kibble to your local shelter asap. A species appropriate raw whole
prey model diet doesn't include kibble.

3. Feed at least 2 meals a day to start with. (three meals for a pup
under 6 months old) Feeding once a day (or even less often) can be a
great feeding plan for a dog, but not at first; too much new food at a
meal can cause digestive upset. Feed as large a portion as you can for
the size of the meal. No little pieces or cut up, ‘bite sized’ chucks.
Dogs need to tear into their food and shear hunks off to swallow and
crunch bone for physical, mental and dental health. They don’t chew or
eat the way we do, their digestion begins in their stomachs, not in
their mouths. So swallowing big hunks of meat and bone is fine. If it
fits, its OK. If it isn’t happy in the stomach, the dog will hork it
up, and re eat it, so it will go down and stay down the 2nd or 3rd
time. All good, that’s the way dogs are.

4. Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive
upset, too.

5. Stay with one new protein for at least a week, maybe two. You want
the dog to be showing you he is well adjusted to the new protein
before adding in new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new protein
every week or two.

6. You can switch to a new protein by just serving it at the next
meal, and all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a
bite or two of the new protein in with the 'old' protein, gradually
adding more new and less 'old' over several days, until you are
feeding all new and no 'old'. Whatever works for your own dog.

7. Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
amount of bone in a newbie dog's meal will tend to firm things up.
There will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less
goes to waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason.
Bone adds bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (don't go
overboard!) bone at each meal at first.

8. Chicken is recommended as the first protein to be introduced for
several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, easy to cut into different
dog meal sized portions, you can trim visible fat and skin if you need
to tweak, most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland. Read the labels
on the chicken before you buy; don't get any that say its enhanced
with flavoring/seasonings or salt injected. Some dogs get itchy or
vomit or get true diarrhea from enhancements. Whole chickens are the
best to start with, ime. Cut into portion sizes with kitchen shears,
as needed.

9. Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much
bone may not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it
out. NPs, its just the dog's way of saying "Too much right now, thanks."

10. Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bile Vomits (BV or BBV)
when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating
have been changed. When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric 'juices'
become much more acid, to better digest the raw meat and bone. If he's
expecting a meal at a certain time, the 'juices start flowing' in
anticipation of getting a meal. When the meal doesn't happen, the dog
often will hork up the yellowish, foamyish bile, with or without
bones. Sometimes they hork up BBV because raw digests faster than
kibble, the tummy is empty, so it must be time to eat. NP for the dog,
he''s gotten rid of the irritation. He may react as if he feels bad,
just because you are upset that he did it on your new comforter, or on
the white carpet.

11. A lot of dogs don't drink as much water or as frequently when
switched to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content
and most dogs are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to
compensate in order for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw,
you don't need to coax your dog to drink more water or even broth,
just offer plenty of fresh water, he'll drink when he needs it.

12. True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is
frequent, liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot 'hold
back'. True diarrhea, imo, is caused by disease, parasites or
inappropriate food or non food items. The occasional loose poops, even
over a few days, from feeding a few too many boneless meals or
introing a new protein or feeding too much organ at one whack, is not
diarrhea.

13. The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is
served must be consumed) and 10% organs (5% of this is liver, the rest
is as much variety as you can find and afford) This is not an
immutable 'daily requirement'. Balance Over Time, over weeks and
months is one of the raw feeding mottos. ; ) If you feed true whole
prey, that is; entire animals at a time, then the meat to bone to
organ ratios are 'perfect' for that creature. Whatever parts your dog
can eat of is right for him. In the wild, wolves will eat off a large
animal carcass for days, and each wolf gets different parts. If times
are hard, they will consume the entire critter, including skin, fur,
less 'choice' parts and will even crack the hard long bones to get to
the marrow. If pickin's are plentiful, they will eat the easiest and
choice parts, and then move on. Because of variances in size, age,
personality, life experiences and dental ability, a particular dog
will be able to consume, or not: all or part or some or a little bone
from any particular animal. If you feed 'Frankenprey', that is; a
variety of protein, body parts and organs from different animals, to
simulate the whole prey experience for your dogs, you are challenged
to find enough variety in all these aspects for optimal health.

14. Organs - don't try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at
first. An easy way to satisfy the human need to "Do it all, right
now!", is to toss the gizzards and heart you get with your whole
chickens in with a bonier meal, a little piece at a meal. Heart and
gizzards are organs, but should be fed as meatymeat. The liver can be
cut up into teensy bits, and fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal.
This will allow you to feed organs, but shouldn't cause runny stools.
If it does, cut it out and freeze those parts for later down the line.
My list of organs, so I don't forget to look for variety; liver, heart
(fed as meat), cheek meat, head meat, salivary glands, feet, lips,
oxtail, spleen, tongue (usually fed as meat), weasand meat
(esophagus), tripe, stomach, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears,
kidneys, brain, tripe, poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard and
snouts. Heads, with all the ‘stuff’, including eyes.
"offal" - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by humans.

15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is "used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis."
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in 1/2 ounce
meatballs, for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with
each meal. Or, fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or
two) offer plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout
the day. Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after,
gradually increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You
will often see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of
the way it soothes the digestive system, and the dog's body will do
the same sometimes even without SEBP.

16. You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog
will eat and that won't break the bank. : ) Common grocery store
variety suffices for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish,
rabbit. Others can obtain at a reasonable price and feed; goat,
venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo, elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea
hen, quail, bear (bear? ;) ), the list goes on and on.

17. If you must supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil,
either in caps or liquid. Make sure it doesn't have any plant based
oils, like soy, in there. You probably don't need much. Follow the
recommendations that come with the product you buy:
http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

In the case of true
disease, you may need certain supps, but this is the exception to the
rule, most dogs don’t.

18. Lis' List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein,
parts and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a
free or cheap freezer to hold all the scores you'll be making!
"> Where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

A) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
B) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
C) You may be able to join a barter group.
D) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
E) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
F) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
G) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
H)If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
I) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or Google to see.
J) Try craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
K) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
L) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sam’s Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
M) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
N) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
O) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
P) A great tip I learned here a while back â€" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
Q) Farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, ‘cause they don't want to take it back with them.
R) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
S) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
T) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
U) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill. (like deer)
V) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.
W) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
X) Speak to local farmers.
Y) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats.
Z) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
AA) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lis"

It really isn't that hard to raw feed your dog. There's a learning
curve, definitely. But, that's what this list is here for.
Read as many daily posts as you can, read the files on the website,
and follow those links! Search in the archives for past posts with
keywords; new to raw, newbie, help, how do I start or other words that
reflect your specific search.
TC, and let us know how you and your dogs progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I just joined this group to find out about feeding my dogs raw. The food
> I've been using is on the list of foods that were stopped from being
> imported.
<snip>
I'm also
> concerned about cost as I have a very limited budget for food since my
> dh was out of work all summer.
>
>
> Thanks!
> Ginger
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: raw for liver disease
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 11:59 am ((PDT))

Hi Jamaica,

While I do see some adjustments that need to be made in the overall diet, I
doubt that your diet caused the liver disease.

You might want to do a search in the archives on liver disease to view past
discussions and get some input on how to manage, what to feed, etc.

You are definitely right in your theory about limiting protein...compromised
organs require high quality, easily digestible protein in order to heal,
making a raw diet ideal. Carbohydrates make the organs work harder by
producing more waste products.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Jamaica" <ladyhawk@citlink.net>

My secondary question - is it possible her diet caused the liver
disease? Here's what I feed:
-5 days a week one leg quarter each
-1 day a week beef (stew meat or ground beef)
-1 day a week fast with a bone (soup bone, oxtail, pig foot, etc.)
-every other day, with their chicken or beef, one whole egg with some
zucchini, or squash or apple
-in the winter they get more meat and less veggie, as most of their
veggies come from our garden. They get a little apple or carrot one
or two days a week.
-1 meal a week I supplement with a fish oil capsule, a splash of olive
oil, a sprinkle of vitamin powder, and a sprinkle of kelp powder
-occasionally I supplement with plain yogurt
-about once every two-three weeks they get beef liver or chicken liver
-they get varying amounts of table scraps, usually just cleaning the
plates, but occasionally finishing off a leftover of some sort

Messages in this topic (2)
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9.1. Re: New To Raw
Posted by: "Marcella Burgess" proudfootkennels@sympatico.ca marciongrass
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 1:44 pm ((PDT))

Hi Giselle,

Wow!!!
Thank you so much... this has probably answered all my questions that I have for now... however I guarantee there will be more to come!
I hope you don't mind.. I printed this off so that I have it on hand to read at any time

Thanks again, it's wonderful to know that there is a place like this that I can go to for help!

Sincerely,
Marcella, Ontario

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (40)
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9.2. Re: New To Raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 2:47 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Marcella!
YQW, use it however you like.
Keep the Qs coming!
TC
G

> Hi Giselle,
>
> Wow!!!
> Thank you so much... this has probably answered all my questions
that I have for now... however I guarantee there will be more to come!
> I hope you don't mind.. I printed this off so that I have it on hand
to read at any time
>
> Thanks again, it's wonderful to know that there is a place like this
that I can go to for help!
>
> Sincerely,
> Marcella, Ontario

Messages in this topic (40)
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10a. Fed Only Raw for Four Years - Cannon Butt
Posted by: "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)" carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com carolyn.garnaas
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 2:09 pm ((PDT))

Since my dog did not attend daycare for five straight days (loooong
weekend at home), I saw absolutely everything she ate, without
exception. This morning, after five straight days on an all-raw diet (no
cookies or snacks from the loving daycare workers, no training treats,
nothing from the sidewalk), she had major cannon butt.

I am perplexed. I fed her the same food, same amounts, on demand (same).
She had no trauma, no unusual activity, no classes, no stress. It was
really hot outside, but we were indoors nearly every second. What is up
with her? Is this why they say "sh** happens"?


Carolyn J. Garnaas

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Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: Fed Only Raw for Four Years - Cannon Butt
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 2:55 pm ((PDT))

extended change in normal routine?
TC
Giselle

> Since my dog did not attend daycare for five straight days (loooong
> weekend at home)<snip>
> I am perplexed. I fed her the same food, same amounts, on demand (same).
> She had no trauma, no unusual activity, no classes, no stress. It was
> really hot outside, but we were indoors nearly every second. What is up
> with her? Is this why they say "sh** happens"?
>
>
> Carolyn J. Garnaas

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: questions from newbie
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 2:20 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ekayke" <ekayke@...> wrote:
>
> My female Rottweiler, Maxine, loved and devoured every
> bite immediately, but the male Rottweiler, The Dude, won't
> touch the
> meaty bones (I've tried wings and backs), and will only
> unenthusiastically eat the muscle/organ/pulped veggie mix.

The Dude is training you and you are caving in to his demands. It's
your responsibility to determine what your dogs eat, not the dogs.
Give The Dude some chicken (I recommend backs and leg quarters) and
let him eat them. Don't hover over him and don't do anything to try
to get him to eat. After 10 minutes of no interest in the chicken
parts, take them up, put them back in the fridge until next meal.
Don't make a fuss over it, just do it. No snacks or treats between
meals. Let him learn that he will eat what you put down or he
doesn't eat. He will soon learn to be enthusiastic about everything
you put down. He may miss 4 or 5 or more meals but he will get the
point and regardless of what you think, he won't starve. :)

Right now he is holding out for something better and so far it's
working for him. As long as it works he will continue. Throw away
the pulped veggie mix. There is no need for veggies in your dog's
diet for many reasons I won't go into now. If you want more
information I have listed some research in the bottom of this post.

> (He
> literally jumps three feet off the ground when I pull out
> the kibble--
> Nature's Variety Prairie.)

Its because its the only thing he has ever known as food for his
entire life. This will change pretty quickly.

> But he loves and devours beef knuckle bones.

Throw those away too. He doesn't need them and they will both chip
and wear down his teeth.

> Should I just not feed him chicken bones and stick to beef
> and other larger bones?

You need ot feed larger bones than chicken wings but backs and
quarters will be good. Very few of us feed beef bones at all. They
are very dense and not good for teeth.

> Also, I don't think Maxine is chewing the chicken bones
> enough before
> swallowing them. Any advice for slowing her down?

If she is not throwing up, she is doing fine. Don't think of
chewing in terms of how humans chew. These are dogs. Humans chew
food into a mush before swallowing. Digestion begins in the mouth.
Dogs merely crunch food up into small enough pieces to fit down
their throat. Dog digestion begins in the stomach.

Get the book "Work Wonders" by Tom Lonsdale. You may download the
book for $9.95 from http://www.ebookmall.com/ebooks-authors/tom-
lonsdale-ebooks.htm or order hard copy either at

http://www.dogwise.com or at http://www.amazon.com (cheaper).

A few informative web sites are:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm (My web page)
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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12a. How much to feed my Dane
Posted by: "Amanda Berthelette" zooberthelette@yahoo.com zooberthelette
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 2:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi Sandee Lee,
I saw this reply that you sent out about amounts to feed and I have a ? for you. I am getting a Dane pup in 2 weeks he will be 9 weeks old when he comes to us. I am having a hard time with how much to feed him. His Dad weighs 145 pounds so I am using that as my adult weight so if I do 2% then that is 2.8 pounds a day and if I do 3% then that is 4.3 pounds a day. That is quite a difference. Do you have full grown males? How much do you feed them?
Any info would be greatly appreciated it is Great to find others feeding the same breed as you. Thanks TTYS Amanda

Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:
Great decision to get this pup on an appropriate diet. Getting started is
easy....buy a few chickens, cut into quarters, hand to pup. Feed him 2-3%
of his expected adult weight per day. Once he has adjusted to digesting the
chicken, you will slowly begin adding in other protein sources and some
organs.

The key to a healthy diet is providing a variety of animal parts and protein
sources, but for now don't worry about that. Just get him started and read
the list messages and archives. You might want to look at some of these
sites.....
http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net - check out the recipe section :)
http://www.rawmeatybones.com

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "karimlizette" <karimlizette@gmail.com>

I have a 10 mo dane, Bronco and want to start him on raw. He has been
on Nutro & Eagle Pack and just developed folliculitis. Previously, when
about 6 mos he had puppy mange. With everything that has been going on
with the dog food industry I feel like I have made a wise choice. Is
there someone with Dane experience that can help me get started. I am
worried about his health and want to do the right thing.

---------------------------------
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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13. amount to feed puppies--why so much?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 3:13 pm ((PDT))

Hi all,

I know the recommendation is to feed dogs/puppies prox. 2-3% of ideal
adult weight, but I've never quite understood how puppies could eat
that much. I mean, human babies don't eat as many calories as an adult
(do they?!). Do other species? Or are dogs different in some way with
regard to this? It just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm missing
something--I don't pay close attention to puppy discussions as I don't
have a puppy and don't plan on getting one anytime soon. Can anyone
explain it?

Thanks!

Laurie

Messages in this topic (1)
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