[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11992

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: new to raw - shih tzu
From: geraldinebutterfield
1b. Re: new to raw - shih tzu
From: Stephani

2a. Re: What is your opinion on this?
From: tottime47
2b. Re: What is your opinion on this?
From: Sandee Lee
2c. Re: What is your opinion on this?
From: coriowen

3a. okay now about guts!
From: lhmcmaken
3b. Re: okay now about guts!
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: okay now about guts!
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: Please help very nervous
From: Sandee Lee
4b. Re: Please help very nervous
From: jmwise80
4c. Re: Please help very nervous
From: chrisstfo@aol.com
4d. Re: Please help very nervous
From: chrisstfo@aol.com
4e. Re: Please help very nervous
From: chrisstfo@aol.com
4f. Re: Please help very nervous
From: chrisstfo@aol.com
4g. Re: Please help very nervous
From: Giselle

5a. Re: Keeping white fur white- especially paws.
From: Penny (Nickles) Parker

6a. Re: Help! Sick pup
From: tottime47

7a. chitterlings
From: mandajenwalker
7b. Re: chitterlings
From: Yasuko herron

8a. wow
From: brutus_buckley
8b. Re: wow
From: Sandee Lee
8c. Re: wow
From: Kaitlin Fraser

9a. Coyotes
From: wandaful
9b. Re: Coyotes
From: Giselle

10.1. New To Raw
From: marciongrass

Messages
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1a. Re: new to raw - shih tzu
Posted by: "geraldinebutterfield" gbutterflied@comcast.net geraldinebutterfield
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 7:30 am ((PDT))

Hi Steph, I think chicken thighs are great. My 10 lb maltipoo eats
them regularly, that and some times a leg (not at the same time). She
did have a problem similar to what your little guy is going through
when she started. I takes time to adjust. Once she doest adjust you
can tell a lot of what she needs by her poo. Yes, I became a poo
watcher. And as this group will tell you because he is eating a
variety of things his poo will not be consistant, as if he were
eating "k" every day. Good luck, hang in there - it's best for your
little guy.
Geraldine

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Stephani" <richincome@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I started my 5 year old Shih Tzu out on chicken thighs on Wednesday.
...
>
> Thx,
> Steph
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: new to raw - shih tzu
Posted by: "Stephani" richincome@yahoo.com richincome
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:48 am ((PDT))

Thank you Jenny and Geraldine. That's what I needed to know. I wanted
to make sure I was feeding him right.

Thx,
Steph

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "geraldinebutterfield"
<gbutterflied@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Steph, I think chicken thighs are great.

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: What is your opinion on this?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 7:41 am ((PDT))

1. I think I wouldn't be buying a puppy from there.

2. Sounds like she does not keep kennel areas clean as both coli and
salomela are easily washed away with a mild bleach solution or proxide,
even a vinegar & water solution!

3. I agree with you Cori, something else was there, parvo sounds more
likely.

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Barb" <behaven1@...> wrote:

> > "The place where I got my puppy from feeds raw. They nearly lost 2
> > whole litters of puppies when they caught salomela from the mom via
> > milk, She also nearly lost 3 females at the same time from ecoli.

> > I actually think this breeder had parvo at her place not sal or
> ecoli,
> > but that is just my opinion. What do y'all think?
> > Cori

Messages in this topic (6)
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2b. Re: What is your opinion on this?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 10:15 am ((PDT))

I think it's nonsense! Salmonella and e.coli are everywhere regardless of
diet. It's pretty easy to make statements like the one below without
anything to back it up. I think you are right that there was something else
going on there!!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "coriowen" <COwen98@aol.com>

"The place where I got my puppy from feeds raw. They nearly lost 2
whole litters of puppies when they caught salomela from the mom via
milk, She also nearly lost 3 females at the same time from ecoli. her
vet recommended her against feeding raw. so does my vet. I had
thought about it, but decided against it. I do feed satin balls to
those who are harder to keep, but that is as far as I'll go."

Messages in this topic (6)
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2c. Re: What is your opinion on this?
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 1:00 pm ((PDT))

Hey everyone, thanks for the replies and I knew it was bunk
especially coming from this woman. I have seen pictures of her
kennels, OH MY, and I thought, "I can only imagine what the other
breeders place might look like!" And some of y'all might be right
that it probably never happened at all. I have never quite
understood why she is on our boards (horses) because she never
discusses horses only dogs, but this discussion came up about someone
having a puppy that contracted Parvo and she chimed in when someone
happened to say that they only feed raw...and it wasn't me, so I
found someone else on my horse board that feeds raw! Yeah! I
invited her to come over here, I'm not sure if she will but, it was
nice to see not all on that board are left in the dark.

The info. I got on the "satin ball", now that is NASTY, but I can see
this woman doing something like that for her dogs, she is a bit on
the, how shall I say this?..."trashy side". YUK!
Cori

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "coriowen" <COwen98@...> wrote:
>
> What do y'all think of this statement? I am on a horse board and
one
> of the ladies that is on there raises and shows dogs, although I am
not
> sure how ligit she is. Anyway, someone actually mentioned feeding
> their dogs only raw and this is what this woman said to her:
>
> "The place where I got my puppy from feeds raw. They nearly lost 2
> whole litters of puppies when they caught salomela from the mom via
> milk, She also nearly lost 3 females at the same time from ecoli.
her
> vet recommended her against feeding raw. so does my vet. I had
> thought about it, but decided against it. I do feed satin balls to
> those who are harder to keep, but that is as far as I'll go."
>
> BTW, does anyone know what a "satin ball" is???
>
> I actually think this breeder had parvo at her place not sal or
ecoli,
> but that is just my opinion. What do y'all think?
> Cori
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. okay now about guts!
Posted by: "lhmcmaken" lhmcmaken@yahoo.com lhmcmaken
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 10:16 am ((PDT))

hi everyone. i have followed the conversation but have not heard
about feeding intestines. if the prey model is followed it seems that
all the parts of the prey need to be eaten. for micro nutrients they
contain. like throat, eyes, ears, feet, hair, brains, and all the
glands, blood too. how does the dog not get out of whack? am
thinking with people that too little vit d is now thought to be at the
root of all sorts of problems. so many the same one thing is
important to the pups. any thoughts??
take care
lynda and maude and franlin

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: okay now about guts!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 10:42 am ((PDT))

"lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@...> wrote:
i have followed the conversation but have not heard
> about feeding intestines.
*****
They are discussed often if not regularly. Please take time to browse
the list archives to see what's been discussed how when.

if the prey model is followed it seems that
> all the parts of the prey need to be eaten. for micro nutrients they
> contain. like throat, eyes, ears, feet, hair, brains, and all the
> glands, blood too. how does the dog not get out of whack?
*****
Ideally you feed whole prey and the concern is moot. Realistically you
feed both protein variety and body part variety and eventually the dog
gets what it needs. It is very rare in the wild that a wolf would get
to eat the whole schmear, except when chancing upon a slow, old and/or
injured rabbit or other small game. Wolves generally get what they
from large prey and over time most of them get enough not only to exist
on but also to thrive.

So feed what you can find/afford and when you can't, don't. It's my
preference to offer the whole thang to the dogs and let them decide
what's edible and what's not: short of that I go for variety and
marginal body parts like large ungulate intestines are not often on the
menu.

> thinking with people that too little vit d is now thought to be at the
> root of all sorts of problems.
*****
Say what?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: okay now about guts!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 12:59 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@...> wrote:
>
> any thoughts??

I think you are way overthinking this and taking a very simple process
and making it very complicated. Do you worry that much about your own
diet? I know I don't.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Please help very nervous
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 10:21 am ((PDT))

Chris,

This is more nonsense! We hear these horror stories often but never any
facts to back them up. There are close to 10,000 members on this list
successfully feeding a raw diet to their dogs without causing the problems
this vet states are common. I believe there would be far fewer of us if
what she is saying is true.

Stick to the facts which you will find in the rawfeeding myths.....
http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Oh, and I'm going on 8 years of feeding raw!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <chrisstfo@aol.com>

> Hi, how is everyone. OK I started raw 7 days ago. First info I got was
to
> go with red meat and other meat also. I stopped the red meat. I am only
> giving her chicken as of right now. She seems to be doing very well on
it. I
> have a few questions that I would like answered by people that have fed
there
> dogs raw for more then 7 years. My wife is on my case, she found an
article
> from a DR name Julie Churchill college of veterinarian medicine
unerviersty
> of Minnesota. First is I just read a post by a member it stated that her
dog
> had a problem with her pancreas in this article it states that this is
very
> common with raw fed dogs. Is this true? It also says that dogs have
died
> from puncture wounds in the stomach and intes from raw feeding... It
salo says
> that all raw diets are lacking in nutritional deficiencies as well as
serious
> bacterial contamination.

Messages in this topic (11)
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4b. Re: Please help very nervous
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 11:22 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, chrisstfo@... wrote:

My wife is on my case, she found an article
> from a DR name Julie Churchill college of veterinarian medicine
unerviersty
> of Minnesota. First is I just read a post by a member it stated
that her dog
> had a problem with her pancreas in this article it states that
this is very
> common with raw fed dogs. Is this true? It also says that dogs
have died
> from puncture wounds in the stomach and intes from raw feeding...
It salo says
> that all raw diets are lacking in nutritional deficiencies as well
as serious
> bacterial contamination.

Read everything on the link that you have been provided. Be sure to
read all the topics on the link, as I think you will probably find a
rebuttal to the exact same article your wife found. That whole
argument against raw feeding is full of holes and has absolutely no
proof to back it up. One time through the raw myths link should
render that whole article obsolete.

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (11)
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4c. Re: Please help very nervous
Posted by: "chrisstfo@aol.com" chrisstfo@aol.com chrisstfo
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 12:59 pm ((PDT))

Thank You, Chris

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Messages in this topic (11)
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4d. Re: Please help very nervous
Posted by: "chrisstfo@aol.com" chrisstfo@aol.com chrisstfo
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 12:59 pm ((PDT))

Thank You very much for your fast reply. I do believe this to be nonsense
that has no backing to it. Thanks, Chris

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Messages in this topic (11)
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4e. Re: Please help very nervous
Posted by: "chrisstfo@aol.com" chrisstfo@aol.com chrisstfo
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 1:00 pm ((PDT))

Hi, how are you? Thannk you for the great response. I am a believer in
this kind of feeding. The reason I asked for more the n 7 years is just to get
an answer from a vet of the raw diet. I have notice already that she seems
a lot happier since I started her on the diet. She also seems more well
behaved. Thansk,Chris

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Messages in this topic (11)
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4f. Re: Please help very nervous
Posted by: "chrisstfo@aol.com" chrisstfo@aol.com chrisstfo
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 1:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi, thank you I had a hard time finding the article. I have found them and
will start reading as much as I can. Thanks, Chris

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (11)
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4g. Re: Please help very nervous
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 1:45 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Chris!
Are you reading the emails as they come in to your inbox?
I found email lists confusing at first, being used to the phpbb forum
style.

At first, I went to the website to read the posts. The best way I've
found to follow the discussion on a subject, is to go to the top of
the message list, under the introductory section. On the left, under
Most Recent Messages, click on (group by topic). Then, click on (view
all). As you scroll down to see the messages, all the ones on a
certain subject will be grouped under the same Subject title. When you
click on a subject title, you will see the original post in its
entirety. Scroll down and you'll also be see each message answering
the original one, in the order they were posted.

To get back to the main page listing all the messages, just click on
your browsers Back button.

I've found that using Gmail for my email lists works really well. One
of the best features is that every email, either from or to you in a
discussion will automatically appear in in order, from most recent
back to the original, when you open the most recent email. Also,
there's a neat labeling and archiving system, so you you'll never lose
an email. The search features are great. Also, there's no need to
delete anything! The is all the room you will ever need to save
messages. If you want an invite to open a Gmail account, just ay the
word. I've got plenty. : )

On the website, all the info files, photos, links, etc are grouped
together at the top left of the page - just click on one and you can
see everything thats in each section. Again, the back button will get
you out of wherever you're in.

You can print out text by highlighting it and clicking on File, Print,
Selection in the window that comes up.
You can also save text by highlighting it, right clicking copy, then
opening Windows notepad or wordpad (they're listed in Accessories,
after you click on the start button and all programs) and right
clicking in the text area. Choose paste. Choose File, Save As and name it.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi, thank you I had a hard time finding the article. I have found
them and
> will start reading as much as I can. Thanks, Chris

Messages in this topic (11)
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5a. Re: Keeping white fur white- especially paws.
Posted by: "Penny (Nickles) Parker" loverladymaggiemae@yahoo.com loverladymaggiemae
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 12:05 pm ((PDT))

Kae,
I have Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, and often foster English Toys
and Cav's. The daily baby wipes routine works wonderfully. It is a
way to get them used to having to have their feet messed with, also.
Penny & The Menagerie
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: Help! Sick pup
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 12:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi Carol,

It kinda sounds like too much pork and the hot weather.....Since
you've feed small amounts all week with no problems, I'd feed like
that for awhile and not a full meal of pork......

Depending on how long you've been raw feeding, some dogs need a lot
more time to adjust to different proteins........

I have just started feeding pork to my dogs after 6 months on raw
and 1 took to it right away and the older 1 (9 yrs. old)
didn't.......some dogs just have more digestion problems, but as
long as they get a variety, it doesn't matter if one protein is
skipped, just go on to something else and try pork again
later.............

I know my dogs are eating less when it's hot and especially when
it's muggy, they don't eat anything. It's as if they can
tell we're going to have a hot day and go off their feed even
though I also keep them inside in air conditioning........

If you search the posts here on this site, you'll find a lot of
information about pancreatitis
and also lots of information on whole talapia, some dogs don't
take to it either, lol......

Hopefully your 'pups' are doing better today.......

Just remember, slow and easy, especially for older dogs on a
previous lifetime of k***le.......

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Wimmer <my3jcs@...> wrote:

> They haven't been out anywhere. It's really hot, so
> it's quick morning and evening playtimes in the yard,
> then back inside.

Messages in this topic (12)
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7a. chitterlings
Posted by: "mandajenwalker" walker1031@chartermi.net mandajenwalker
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 12:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi all!
What are chitterlings and are they worthwhile for my dogs??? I saw
them at the store and they were reasonably priced and I didn't know if
I should waste my money.
If you could advise me I would appreciate it.
thanks
Mandy
PS My dogs are doing fantastic and took very quickly to the diet. It
will be 2 weeks on Wednesday!

Messages in this topic (11)
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7b. Re: chitterlings
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 2:44 pm ((PDT))

>What are chitterlings and are they worthwhile for my dogs???

Hi,chitterlings is pig of large intestine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitterlings

I don't think I would feed but anyone who would??

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (11)
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8a. wow
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 12:59 pm ((PDT))

I had to take my pup to the vet today and they only had an ER vet on
staff. I have met this vet before and she has always been pleasant
enough, but then, diet never came up. When I told her I am a raw
feeder, she went off, asking me why I would do something so bad for my
pets and told me she is going to send me some information on raw diets
that will "scare the hell out of me." I told her she can send me
whatever she wants but it isn't going to change my mind. She said that
was fine; she was sending it to me so that she knows I am informed of
the risks of a raw diet...so that later when she is "saving my dog's
life from e-coli or salmonella poisoning, she can charge me extra!"
Then she patted me on the shoulder like I was a 3 year old. I was so
appalled, that I just left. Needless to say, we won't be going back
there. FWIW, my pup caught a cold at the dog show; diet was irrelevant
to the diagnosis. I just wanted them to listen to her lungs to make
sure it wasn't pneumonia. Can't wait for the "information" in the mail.
I'm sure it will be good for a laugh.
-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: wow
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 2:37 pm ((PDT))

Wow is right! How mature is that? She's going to charge you more because
she told you so, huh????

Maybe you could return the favor by sending her some factual information!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "brutus_buckley" <brutus_buckley@yahoo.com>

When I told her I am a raw
feeder, she went off, asking me why I would do something so bad for my
pets and told me she is going to send me some information on raw diets
that will "scare the hell out of me." I told her she can send me
whatever she wants but it isn't going to change my mind. She said that
was fine; she was sending it to me so that she knows I am informed of
the risks of a raw diet...so that later when she is "saving my dog's
life from e-coli or salmonella poisoning, she can charge me extra!"
Then she patted me on the shoulder like I was a 3 year old. I was so
appalled, that I just left. Needless to say, we won't be going back
there.

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: wow
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 2:42 pm ((PDT))

so that later when she is "saving my dog's
>life from e-coli or salmonella poisoning,

I got a laugh out of this.... dog who arn't fed raw have salmonella.....
Come on how stupid can a vet be? Any healthy dog would never be affected by
it....

Kaitlin Fraser
Prince SJA therapy dog, CGN
Jester SJA therapy dog CGN
Wenlisa's Command Performance HIC, CKC PTd "Malo" A work of art in
progress.( Raw Fed, )
Sheep's Kin Unusually Unusaul Kiska- Another work of art in even more
progress.( Raw fed)

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

_________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Coyotes
Posted by: "wandaful" rondarosa@ftcnet.net rondaros
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 1:08 pm ((PDT))

I have a real general question. We always hear about wolves and their diets in relation to our dogs. What about coyotes? Don't they eat a large amount of vegetable matter? I know they eat grapes and drying raisins, which leads me to question the things I have heard about grapes/raisins being poisonous to dogs.
wanda

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Coyotes
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 1:50 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Wanda!
The reason we look to wolves to learn what to feed our dogs,
is that dogs ARE wolves, right down in their DNA.
Dogs are not coyotes, just as they are not humans, so feeding a dog
what a coyote eats would not serve our purpose, which is to feed an
optimal species appropriate diet to our dogs.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I have a real general question. We always hear about wolves and
their diets in relation to our dogs. What about coyotes? Don't they
eat a large amount of vegetable matter? I know they eat grapes and
drying raisins, which leads me to question the things I have heard
about grapes/raisins being poisonous to dogs.
> wanda
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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10.1. New To Raw
Posted by: "marciongrass" proudfootkennels@sympatico.ca marciongrass
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 2:49 pm ((PDT))

Hi Everyone!

I would like to know if there are any very good books out there for
people who are just starting out and have a million questions!

Thank you in advance

Sincerely,
Marcella, Ontario

Messages in this topic (28)
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