[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11991

There are 17 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. new to raw - shih tzu
From: Stephani
1b. Re: new to raw - shih tzu
From: Jenny S

2a. Re: greetings and long post sorry.
From: linoleum5017

3a. Re: Mocha's Passing
From: coriowen

4a. Re: Help! Sick pup
From: chrisstfo@aol.com
4b. Help! Sick pup
From: Carol Wimmer
4c. Re: Help! Sick pup
From: Monica

5.1. Re: liver
From: Kaitlin Fraser

6a. Re: feeding mostly chicken
From: Melinda

7a. What is your opinion on this?
From: coriowen
7b. Re: What is your opinion on this?
From: Giselle
7c. Re: What is your opinion on this?
From: Barb

8a. Please help very nervous
From: chrisstfo@aol.com
8b. Re: Please help very nervous
From: Giselle
8c. Re: Please help very nervous
From: Brandi Bryant
8d. Re: Please help very nervous
From: Laurie Swanson

9. Distemper.
From: jean reinhardt

Messages
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1a. new to raw - shih tzu
Posted by: "Stephani" richincome@yahoo.com richincome
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 8:44 pm ((PDT))

Hello,

I started my 5 year old Shih Tzu out on chicken thighs on Wednesday.
Monday and Tuesday he would not eat, so he just fasted. Finally, on
Wednesday, he started to eat it. He started waking me up several times
in the night on Friday night to go outside. He didn't have any
accidents. However, last night, I let him outside 3 times to go out.
This morning, I noticed little 1-2 inch spots of liquid poo in various
areas of my bedroom. He also had a few bouts this afternoon on the
bathroom rug. He has been eating the thighs with bone/without skin. I
haven't fed him today. Is a thigh not good, or do I just need to give
him more time to adjust?

Thx,
Steph

Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: new to raw - shih tzu
Posted by: "Jenny S" jenken69@shaw.ca jenken69
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 9:25 pm ((PDT))

Hey Steph...Me to the mommy of a shih Tzu ...we had a couple nights where she has wanted /needed out almost every hr ..i think its just an adjustment progress ..he will prob need a few days to adjust to the raw and elemanate the kibble crap from his body.. thighs are good i would keep him with just the chicken for a few more days till he gets his. My girl has days of fasting as well even still and she has been raw for most of her life ..she is almost 2. and at the moment pg :) i cant wait...her first ..but even now hubby askes her if she is haveing an eating day or a non eating day lol..we feed twice a day at the moment cause she is pg but usually just once as well she dossent often eat both meals but want to be sure she is getting enough ...

meanwhile i wouldnt worry yet . stick with it and he will work it out ...:)
Jenny S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfMJXz3AvKI (doggy napkin)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L34YjdBCu8I( Fun in the pool) way to funny..

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: greetings and long post sorry.
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 9:28 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T. S." <JoeTheLion1@...> wrote:
>
> i am new to the group. i have a 1 year old rescue/stray
> shepherd/collie mix, & i do believe there are innumerable benefits
to feeding a raw/cooked diet

*** T.S., (aka Joe the Lion)

Raw/cooked is not a simile. Raw is good; cooked is not. At least
not for pets. Cooking makes bones brittle, and not good for
consumption. Raw bones are soft, maleable, and beneficial for pets.
Even chicken bones!

however, i have two concerns: 1) will she experience stomach
issues (i.e. bowl problems) and other mood issues, and if so, how
long will this transition take?

**** She may have a transition period, (though my dog did not.)
There may be runny, mucousy stools for a day or two. Before you know
it, however, you will instead have a running, hopping dog who cannot
wait for her next meal. If you experience more than a day or two of
diarrhea, increase the bone content, which tends to firm up the
stools, (or 'bowls,' as you say.) (At least they're not tables or
couches! lol)

2) how can i provide her the added vitamins and nutrients without
buying store bought products, by this i mean i would like to find
ways in which i can use all natural yogurts, bragg apple cider
vinegar, and broths made from veggies and chicken livers.

*** The prey model diet of 80% rawmeat, 10% bone, and 10% organ
reflects what God intended for dogs, and is natural in what they
would find in the wild. They do not need 'vitamin supplements' to
what God supplied. Very simple, this diet. But complete.

i am not a
> chemist so i don't really know how to get her the proper amounts.

**** Do not need to be; God worked it out for them (and us.)

>i supplemented her with home cooked brown rice and broths (i add
no spices) made from free range, no hormone chicken livers, all
natural yogurt and all natural home made cheese etc. doing this has
made her stools often too loose and ranging in colors of yellow and
green.

****No wonder; she does not need it!

i am just starting to take in information before i make the
switch.

*** Good to 'read up.' These posts are full of wisdom for what kind
of meat, what kind of organs, what not to do, and also some specific-
needs for special cases. Read on, and enjoy!

Lynne

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Mocha's Passing
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 11:18 pm ((PDT))

Sandy,
I haven't been on this group for very long but I have been a mommy to
many, many furbabies and I definitely know the pain you are feeling.
I am so sorry that you had to say goodbye to Mocha she sounded like
she was a beautiful baby. I too just lost my Liaka girl to
cancer/seizures back in July and it is still so painful. They fight
hard and we fight with them but then they know when it is time to
rest and go home...I hope you start to find some peace and you start
to see the fun times you had soon. From one broken heart to another,
May you find some peace.
Cori

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "beaulah_2001us"
<beaulah_2001us@...> wrote:
>
>
> 9.1.2007 This is a letter to cover everyone personal, close, yahoo
> groups etc.
>
> To those who know of Mocha and her fight with Insulinoma Cancer.
Mocha
> put up a terrific fight against this cancer. She tried her hardest
to
> heal as much as possible and be here as long as possible. Her fight
> ended Wednesday night of this last week. She is now off playing with
> Grace our other beloved dog of many years.
>
> Mocha went into waves of grand maul seizures on Wednesday that
lasted
> for several hours. With every seizure we saw less and less of Mocha
and
> knew in the end that if we did save her, she would not really be
there
> anymore. Looking into Mocha's eyes we felt she was telling us it was
> time to let her go. So we stayed with her before, during and after
she
> left. We told her how much we all loved her and thanked her for
being
> with us. She was a great companion and friend to all of us.
>
> Even though our daughter has moved back home just yesterday with her
> cats, it is still an empty, lonely, quiet home to be in. Some day we
> will have another dog in our lives but for now we will listen to
them
> quietly as they come and visit us in their new lives. We do not just
> want to replace those we love with another baby, but wait for the
right
> time and baby to come along.
>
> Mocha loved many people and she sends her love to all. To the Yahoo
dog
> groups that I belong to I have enjoyed the groups. I did not get to
> participate in the last weeks with mocha's illness and moving the
> kids back home, taking cats to vet, canning etc. But I did try to
read
> most of the posts in each group. For now if no one minds I would
like to
> just stay with some of the groups and yes more as a lurker than a
> participator, at least for awhile during which time we will be
thinking
> of another dog. Can people share their knowledge of what breeds are
> 30-50 lbs and the personalities of the breed?
>
> We want to take time to heal before getting another dog. We may end
up
> not even getting what we think we want. But at least it will give us
> time to heal and be able to look forward to a new furbaby.
>
> To my other yahoo groups this is basically an update as to what has
gone
> on of late and I will try to be more active in time.
>
> Thank you all so much for the help we received and the caring and
loving
> thoughts.
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: Help! Sick pup
Posted by: "chrisstfo@aol.com" chrisstfo@aol.com chrisstfo
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 11:19 pm ((PDT))

bump this.. Any vets on this boad would like to chime in...... Why would
they think it is the pork that brought this on..................Chris

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Messages in this topic (11)
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4b. Help! Sick pup
Posted by: "Carol Wimmer" my3jcs@yahoo.com my3jcs
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 11:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi Kim!

I am much more concerned about what I feed now. I am
new to raw and still weigh everything and I'm a
constant poop checker to make sure everything "comes
out ok". All 3 dogs have done great in the 2 weeks
I've been feeding raw. Rex had been my best eater, so
he was the last one I thought would be sick. Mack
and Rocky both threw up twice yesterday and once today
(pieces of pork from Thurs.). Rocky has hardly
eaten in the last 4 days. I tried searing the chicken
and turkey as suggested on the list and he has no
interest. He did eat 3-4 bites by hand tonight when I
cut off the chicken from the bone, but he will not eat
the bone. I feed them outside and when Rocky
continued not to eat, I tried feeding him inside in
his old "kibble feeding spot". He ate a couple of
bites. So... now I'm wondering if he just doesn't
want to eat outside. I just have so many questions
and no answers. I like answers.

Carol
Rocky,Mack,Rex

how are the two dogs that did not go to emergency?
> >
> > > as for the diet.....you will find the right
> > > combinations for your
> > > pups....i hope you don't let this scare take you
> off
> > > the track.
> > >
> > > kim
> > >

____________________________________________________________________________________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7

Messages in this topic (11)
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4c. Re: Help! Sick pup
Posted by: "Monica" mommyof2gals@comcast.net mommyof2gals
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 5:27 am ((PDT))

>>I'm just afraid, now that Rex has pancreatitis, he will have trouble with
anything fattier then chicken and turkey<<

Carol, my Loki has pancreatitis (also unknown cause - I believe he got bad
chicken or something along that line, he'd had no pork in the seven days
prior).

He still eats chicken and turkey - I just remove the thick, hanging skin
which is were most of the fat is. I leave the little thin skin on the leg
portion of the quarters and on the rest of the chicken (whole, breast etc.)
I just remove those heavy skin parts - you know, where there is no meat
between big folds of skin? I don't know how else to explain it. I rarely
have that on the turkey - the skin is pretty thin - so I only remove about
half of it.

FWIW, my Loki can still eat ribs and some pork - just not tons of it or on
back to back days.

Good luck with Rex and the pack!

Monica in IL

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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5.1. Re: liver
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 11:19 pm ((PDT))

I never did. Silly people. I said he was picky... I enver moaned and groaned
about it did I?

Kaitlin Fraser
Prince SJA therapy dog, CGN
Jester SJA therapy dog CGN
Wenlisa's Command Performance HIC, CKC PTd "Malo" A work of art in
progress.( Raw Fed, )
Sheep's Kin Unusually Unusaul Kiska- Another work of art in even more
progress.( Raw fed)

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

_________________________________________________________________
Put Your Face In Your Space with Windows Live Spaces

http://spaces.live.com/?mkt=en-ca

Messages in this topic (43)
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6a. Re: feeding mostly chicken
Posted by: "Melinda" mjensen@gotsky.com mjjennes
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 11:19 pm ((PDT))

Hi Sue,

Before my male was neutered which in turn cleared up his prostate issue, he did best on
chicken, rabbit, lamb and green tripe. Just about anything else would cause a major
digestive upset.

So, unless you can find a similar solution to his medical condition, you might have to stay
clear of proteins like beef, pork and turkey if he's not tolerating them well.

Try to find as much variety as you can, but if something has caused a problem in the past,
better to just not feed it.

I also fed three meals a day; less mass pushing by that poor prostate, and sometimes bone
ground in meals, such as whole rabbit including fur, when he was extra sensitive.

Melinda

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sue" <fordogs@...> wrote:
>
> I've discussed this problem before but still have some questions. My
> older dog (9 yr old aussie) has a very sensitive stomach. I've been
> feeding raw for about 3 1/2 months now and I continue to have some
> problems no matter how small the additional protein that I give with
> the chicken meal is. I feed him chicken quarters and quartered
> chickens with small amounts of liver or kidney and additional
> proteins such as pork or tripe or turkey in small pieces. Beef
> really causes problems. He also has, according to my vet, an
> enlarged prostate which causes him to do a lot of posturing and
> straining at times which does not produce stool. He did this while
> eating kibble also.
> So when he does finally go, his stool is occasionally large and round
> which to me indicates his colon is not working properly. Then there
> are times when we have to do a lot of butt washing. I realize hard
> and soft stools are both normal and are due to what he's eaten the
> past meal or so but my question is, he seems to do best on mostly
> chicken and I'm concerned that without adding a lot of varied
> proteins that I may be doing him more harm than good. There are also
> days that pass without any stool at all. He also has a lot of
> discharge from his eyes which he didn't really have initially, could
> this still be detox? Sorry for the long post, I only intended to ask
> one little question and as I typed I kept thinking of more. On a
> brighter note the 1 year old is doing great no matter what I feed him.
> Thanks for any help or suggestions.
> Sue, Gnat & Slick
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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7a. What is your opinion on this?
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 11:19 pm ((PDT))

What do y'all think of this statement? I am on a horse board and one
of the ladies that is on there raises and shows dogs, although I am not
sure how ligit she is. Anyway, someone actually mentioned feeding
their dogs only raw and this is what this woman said to her:

"The place where I got my puppy from feeds raw. They nearly lost 2
whole litters of puppies when they caught salomela from the mom via
milk, She also nearly lost 3 females at the same time from ecoli. her
vet recommended her against feeding raw. so does my vet. I had
thought about it, but decided against it. I do feed satin balls to
those who are harder to keep, but that is as far as I'll go."

BTW, does anyone know what a "satin ball" is???

I actually think this breeder had parvo at her place not sal or ecoli,
but that is just my opinion. What do y'all think?
Cori

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: What is your opinion on this?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 12:21 am ((PDT))

Hi, Cori!
Its hard to say what went wrong with this person's breeding
program, or if anything actually did.

One of the things that is sad, but true, is that people who are biased
against feeding a raw diet to their dogs often will say anything; pass
on embellished "I heard from my friend who's breeder's handler
said..." stories, even outright lies, to make other people believe
them, and be afraid to feed raw.

There have been many stories posted by some of the people who have
come to this list, of "things gone wrong" with a raw diet. Even
professionals, like vets, have not been immune to 'telling tales' to
get their biased viewpoint across.

Satin Balls are an 'old time' handler's and breeder's trick to put
weight on a show dog. They are just junk food;
http://www.google.com/search?q=satin+balls+recipe&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
http://tinyurl.com/2lt3h6
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> What do y'all think of this statement? I am on a horse board and one
> of the ladies that is on there raises and shows dogs, although I am not
> sure how ligit she is. Anyway, someone actually mentioned feeding
> their dogs only raw and this is what this woman said to her:
> <snip>
> BTW, does anyone know what a "satin ball" is???
>
> I actually think this breeder had parvo at her place not sal or e coli,
> but that is just my opinion. What do y'all think?
> Cori
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: What is your opinion on this?
Posted by: "Barb" behaven1@telus.net behavensnikko
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 1:49 am ((PDT))

Sounds like pure ignorance coming through loud & clear! Dogs are
carnivores! How difficult is that to see beyond that small mindset!
Common sense when dealing with a dog! Think what a wolf would do &
follow what they know!They know how to control salmonella & e-coli!
It's a no brainer!
Not that difficult!
Cheers/Barb
Behaven Shelties
Raw fed/Vaccine Free X 23+ years
PS-Google search "Satin Balls"
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "coriowen" <COwen98@...> wrote:
>
> What do y'all think of this statement? I am on a horse board and
one
> of the ladies that is on there raises and shows dogs, although I am
not
> sure how ligit she is. Anyway, someone actually mentioned feeding
> their dogs only raw and this is what this woman said to her:
>
> "The place where I got my puppy from feeds raw. They nearly lost 2
> whole litters of puppies when they caught salomela from the mom via
> milk, She also nearly lost 3 females at the same time from ecoli.
her
> vet recommended her against feeding raw. so does my vet. I had
> thought about it, but decided against it.
>
>
> I actually think this breeder had parvo at her place not sal or
ecoli,
> but that is just my opinion. What do y'all think?
> Cori
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Please help very nervous
Posted by: "chrisstfo@aol.com" chrisstfo@aol.com chrisstfo
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 11:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi, how is everyone. OK I started raw 7 days ago. First info I got was to
go with red meat and other meat also. I stopped the red meat. I am only
giving her chicken as of right now. She seems to be doing very well on it. I
have a few questions that I would like answered by people that have fed there
dogs raw for more then 7 years. My wife is on my case, she found an article
from a DR name Julie Churchill college of veterinarian medicine unerviersty
of Minnesota. First is I just read a post by a member it stated that her dog
had a problem with her pancreas in this article it states that this is very
common with raw fed dogs. Is this true? It also says that dogs have died
from puncture wounds in the stomach and intes from raw feeding... It salo says
that all raw diets are lacking in nutritional deficiencies as well as serious
bacterial contamination. I am a believer in feeding animals the way they
would eat in the wild. Also am a believer that all commercial food is BS and
not good for our animals. I just need some articles to read on this, I am
having a hard time navigating this email board, if someone could help me. I
am scared that I may hurt my dog. Could someone please point me in the right
direction. Thank You, Chris PS she is 1 year old and weighs 60 pounds she is
a mut...

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Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: Please help very nervous
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 1:23 am ((PDT))

Hi, Chris!
Have you joined the list? When you join the email list, you
get sent some files to read. Then you can read all the messages by all
the other people posting every day. You can also access and read
archived Qs and Qs about raw feeding.

You can choose to read all the messages on the website, or get the
messages sent to your email inbox or even get a daily diget of all the
day's messages.

If you take a look at the website, you'll see that this is a high
volume list. We have nearly 10,000 members from all over the world. We
had over 2,500 messages last month and 100 just since the 1st of this
month! We get several new members daily, all of which have urgent
questions because they have been reading "everything" they can find on
the 'net. Researching is good, but you can find every opinion, from
the ridiculous to the sublime. This list, of course, is the sublime.
: )

This list supports and gives advice on feeding a species appropriate
raw whole prey model diet. That means, we ask, "What would the wolf
eat?" And we feed our best approximation of the answer to that
question to our dogs. Dogs are wolves under the skin - wolves eat
prey. Prey is made up of meat, bones and organs. You don't need
veggies, or grains, or supps. If you feed a variety of protein and
animal parts, you will be feeding your dog all she needs for an
optimal diet and healthy life.

Giving new people advice on how to start, what and where meats can be
obtained and helping people figure out problems they are having is
what we do. Some people come to this list to learn how to feed raw
because their dogs are not healthy, or don't thrive, or won't eat
kibble or because of the pet food recalls.

Some people, like you, find us because they have been told that
feeding raw is wrong, and will kill their dog.
Ask yourself; Who benefits if you buy kibble instead of going to the
market and buying real meat for you dog? Yup, the pet food companies.
They spend millions of dollars on 'studies' to 'prove' that their
cr*p-in-a-bag is best for dogs. They also spend millions of
advertising dollars convincing university students, vets, vet techs,
and dog owners that artificially processed, substandard 'stuff' is
perfectly balanced and "all your dog will ever need". When the truth
is, 'dog food' was created only at the beginning of the last century
by people who wanted to find a cheap salable product that didn't need
refrigeration to sell to people who shipped their dogs across the
country. Prior to this, people fed dogs real meats, or dogs caught
their own prey.

Why 7 years? ; )
I myself have fed dogs for over 10, nearly 15 years. There are people
on the list who have fed more dogs than I have and for much longer.
But, people tend to 'check in' periodically after they get comfortable
feeding raw and don't post unless they have a problem or a Q.

The truth is; feeding raw is easy, and so simple that it just doesn't
seem 'right' to people used to believing the lies told to them by the
pet food companies and other business people who have a vested
interest in selling 'dog food'. All it takes is common sense, being
connected with your dog, and understanding that dogs are carnivores,
and carnivores don't need and can't properly process grains and veggies.

Once a dog is on raw for a few weeks to a few months, the difference
is amazing!

Believe in your common sense, ignore the scaremongers and see the
wonderful changes that will happen in your dog!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi, how is everyone. OK I started raw 7 days ago. First info I
got was to
> go with red meat and other meat also. I stopped the red meat. I
am only
> giving her chicken as of right now. She seems to be doing very
well on it.
<snip>
I
> am scared that I may hurt my dog. Could someone please point me in
the right
> direction. Thank You, Chris PS she is 1 year old and weighs 60
pounds she is
> a mutt...

Messages in this topic (4)
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8c. Re: Please help very nervous
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 1:49 am ((PDT))

>>>I just need some articles to read on this, I am
having a hard time navigating this email board, if someone could help me. I
am scared that I may hurt my dog. Could someone please point me in the right

direction<<<

I haven't fed RAW for 7 years but I know how to find articles. Try these:
http://rawfed.com/myths/bacteria.html
http://rawfed.com/myths/honest.html - this one has info on Intestinal
Perforation and Obstruction and Pancreatitis.

Maybe this will help.
Brandi
Bartlesville, OK

On 9/3/07, chrisstfo@aol.com <chrisstfo@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>

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Brandi
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www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

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Messages in this topic (4)
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8d. Re: Please help very nervous
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 1:49 am ((PDT))

Hi Chris,

Check out http://rawfed.com/myths/

Laurie

Messages in this topic (4)
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9. Distemper.
Posted by: "jean reinhardt" jeanreinhardt@yahoo.co.uk jeanreinhardt
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 4:05 am ((PDT))

Hi, new member here and my eyes are hanging out reading all your lovely posts and gems of information. Thanks to everyone for posting, it's really helpful.

We took in an abandoned 12 week old pup who had distemper. He was in animal hospital for 4 days on a drip and has had all kinds of medication for intestinal infection and mucus coming from everywhere and to add to his discomfort some kind of skin irritation. After much searching on the internet and lots of conflicting info we decided to start him on raw food. We haven't told the vet as they gave us a dried puppy mix for him. We also didn't tell them we were giving him vitamin c and echinacea.
We want to give him the best possible chance after the rotten start he has had in life. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what meat or fish would be best to give him considering his illness.
We have been giving him fresh sardines, raw of course and he loves them. We thought they might be a good source of omega 3. He has also had beef and chicken wings and a little lamb.
He didn't take any seizures so the vet says he may not go through that stage, but he still may be infectious for up to 6 months so we have him under house arrest for now. Sorry for such a long post but maybe someone reading this will have some good advice about feeding a pup recovering from distemper.
Many thanks again for all your contributions, Jean.

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