[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11984

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Hello I am new here
From: Olga
1b. Re: Hello I am new here
From: Andrea
1c. Re: Hello I am new here
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1d. Re: Hello I am new here
From: Morledzep@aol.com

2a. HELP! 10 mo Dane, Bronco has diarrhea
From: karimlizette
2b. Re: HELP! 10 mo Dane, Bronco has diarrhea
From: Yasuko herron
2c. Re: HELP! 10 mo Dane, Bronco has diarrhea
From: Laurie Swanson
2d. Re: HELP! 10 mo Dane, Bronco has diarrhea
From: Andrea

3a. Re: skin issues (was: My intro...)
From: Laurie Swanson

4a. Re: problem with pooped out bone
From: cypressbunny
4b. Re: problem with pooped out bone
From: Yasuko herron

5a. Re: introduced pork today...question
From: Yasuko herron

6a. Re: Keeping white fur white- especially paws.
From: Laurie Swanson
6b. Re: Keeping white fur white- especially paws.
From: Penny (Nickles) Parker

7a. Re: Big chunks of food - when do I take it away?
From: Laurie Swanson

8a. Re: not eating enough
From: ptrsrgnt

9a. Re: where to feed dogs
From: swilken61
9b. Re: where to feed dogs
From: Yasuko herron
9c. Re: where to feed dogs
From: Renate Hotchkiss

10a. Re: I need to find a Holistic Vet in the Dallas area....
From: coriowen
10b. Re: I need to find a Holistic Vet in the Dallas area....
From: coriowen

11. Pet care
From: Anita

12. My Saints and apples
From: alluponjanice

13a. Pork Stomach?
From: Penelope Quillen
13b. Re: Pork Stomach?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

Messages
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1a. Re: Hello I am new here
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:32 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, heather pavelin <hpav061378@...> wrote:
> Leo is 77 lbs and he got 2lbs and Claire who is 62 lbs got 1 1/2 lbs
> of leg quarters chicken does this sound right in the amount?

That sounds about right. My 75 lb grey gets around 1.5-2 lbs per day
(depending on the day and how active he is, etc.). It's a good
starting point, you can just adjust from there based on how they look
(don't go by those sad looking eyes though! lol).

Olga

Messages in this topic (14)
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1b. Re: Hello I am new here
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:09 pm ((PDT))

Forgive me, I'm not super well versed in euphamisms, by "the D issues"
do you mean diarrhea? That's the only problem I can think of that
starts with d, so I'm going to assume I'm on the right track.

First off, we should differentiate between true diarrhea and just loose
stools. True diarrhea is a watery mess that the dog can't hold in (see
earlier post about Bronco the exploding Dane). Loose stools are much
more common with newly switched dogs. If your dog can wait to go
outside and ends up pooing a puddle, it's loose stool.

Loose stools are commonly caused by handler error (that's us) or
overexuberance by the dog. Feeding too much food, introducing a new
meat, introducing organs can all produce this effect. From the
conversation it sounds like Leo might be having loose stool because
he's eating a little more than his stomach can digest right now. If
I'm right, you'll probably find that feeding the whole day's worth in
one go has made the problem worse. You may want to go back to two
meals a day and slowly work back up to one meal if this is the case.
Give us some more info on the problem and we'll see if we can figure it
out.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, heather pavelin <hpav061378@...>
wrote:
>
> Leo is not missing any teeth but they are very worn. I watched him
today and he chews it up pretty good but it just takes him longer to do
it than little miss " I can eat it all in one bite" Claire. Now to see
if we can get past the D issues.

Messages in this topic (14)
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1c. Re: Hello I am new here
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:32 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/31/2007 8:04:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mrbatisse@yahoo.ca writes:

If I just throw a chicken leg quarter down for her, she won't touch it.

Shannon,

that's because she knows she has you buffaloed (don't feel bad, my hubby is a
sucker for big brown puppy eyes too).. she knows if she refuses to eat what
you offer you will pick it up and cut it into convenient pieces for her. That
way she never has to put any real effort into eating.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (14)
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1d. Re: Hello I am new here
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/31/2007 5:33:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,
hpav061378@yahoo.com writes:

He also has a hard time chewing the
quarters because his teeth are very worn. Any suggestions would be
great.

Heather,

Less poop is one of the perks off feeding raw. there are no fillers, nothing
that just needs to be processed through and depositted. Your dog is
naturally able to use more of the food that he's being fed, and therefore there is
less waste.

Dogs with few teeth, or worn teeth just need longer to eat.. give him a space
where he can relax and eat at his pace and finish his food without
interuption. Unless he's completely toothless there is no reason to modify his diet at
all.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (14)
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2a. HELP! 10 mo Dane, Bronco has diarrhea
Posted by: "karimlizette" karimlizette@gmail.com karimlizette
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:39 am ((PDT))

So I got home and was getting ready to start Bronco on pork after being
on chiken for 1 1/2 wks. Well the entire house smelled as I walked in
and I noticed poor Bronco had EXPLODED in his kennel!! He had 3 chiken
thighs and a breast last night. He seemed fine this morning. What
should I do now? Should I give him the pork or just chiken backs for
dinner?

Thanks,
Karim

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: HELP! 10 mo Dane, Bronco has diarrhea
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:23 pm ((PDT))

>So I got home and was getting ready to start Bronco on pork after being on chiken for 1 1/2 >wks. I noticed poor Bronco had EXPLODED in his kennel!!

Hi. How is your dog doing now? Is your dog diarrhea;cannot control and watery still or loose poo?

If it were loose poo,add more bone to the meal. And if watery and cannot controll,you may want to fast the dog a day,and provide lots of liquid to avoid dehydration.Make sure your dog drink water very good.

For feeding time,you can give just chicken broth,and if you already bought slippery elmpowder that others on this list talk a lot about,give this with broth and it should help.

Nexttime you feed, give chicken again and if yourdog was digesting ok,give chicken+small amount of Pork if you like to introduce pork.And then,gradually increase pork amount.

And.. what did you feed this morning? How much did you feed? Did you put or did anything new?

>I read you fed 3 Chicken thigh and breast last night.

If you fed the same stuff this morning,it probably needed more bone.And,maybe for thesize of yourdog,maybe too small piece of meat I think. I think Dane is big dog,right?
You may want to cut up whole chicken to appropriate pieces. That maybe cheaper too compare to buying parts by parts.

If you give us more detail,we could help you more,I think.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: HELP! 10 mo Dane, Bronco has diarrhea
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:10 pm ((PDT))

Hi Karim,

Poor Bronco...You may just need to change your feeding schedule (not
that you want to be on a specific schedule, but you know, just to make
sure he can eliminate before being put in his crate?). What have you
been feeding for the past 1-1/2 wks.? It's been going well? Are you
feeding more meaty portions than just chicken backs?

Laurie

Messages in this topic (4)
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2d. Re: HELP! 10 mo Dane, Bronco has diarrhea
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:10 pm ((PDT))

Don't feed him the pork until his stomach settles down. If he is still
acting ok, feed him something easy like bone in chicken breast, maybe a
chicken back to up the bone content, but don't go overboard. Feed a
little less than you ordinarily would. If he were an adult I'd say
fast him today, but you probably want to keep the pup fed.

Now, to figure out why this happened. . .Did Bronco eat a larger meal
last night than normal? Did you get a new brand of chicken or was it
from a different store? Were you late coming home? What was different
this time that could have triggered it? Sorry you came home to a poo
covered dog, that couldn't have been much fun.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "karimlizette" <karimlizette@...>
wrote:
>
> So I got home and was getting ready to start Bronco on pork after
> being on chiken for 1 1/2 wks. Well the entire house smelled as I
> walked in and I noticed poor Bronco had EXPLODED in his kennel!!

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: skin issues (was: My intro...)
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:40 am ((PDT))

Hi Lynne,

Itchy skin can be caused by or exacerbated by diet. My dog gets itchy
from grains. Others have mentioned noticing itchiness related to
enhanced meats. I'm sure it's not always that simple or easy to
correlate, and there can be many other factors, but what's going on on
the inside can definitely show up externally.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "linoleum5017" <linoleum5017@...>
wrote:
>
> Valerie,
>
> I used to be owned by a GP, as well. One thing I learned on this
list
> is that itchy skin is EXTERNAL, not caused (or relieved,)by something
> internal. Food, in other words,will not likely help a skin allergy.

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: problem with pooped out bone
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:01 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nat_franc" <chickenchucker@...>
wrote:
>
> yes, i am feeding cooked bone.

*** I think the dog does not need as much bone as you are feeding. I
would shoot for the very low end of the species-appropriate amount
of bone--10% of diet or even less, temporarily.

> i am ordering some
> Berte's Zyme today.

*** This product measures enzymes in mg rather than active units, so
I wonder about the efficacy. It also contains enzymes dogs eating
raw foods do not need.

> he is not digesting raw bone.

*** Either his stomach is not sufficiently acidic to dissolve bone,
or he is not producing the enzymes necessary to break down
connective tissue. In this case I'd be reluctant to feed much
ground, especially with a lot of bone in it. Don't overdo the bone
or other calcium supps--it neutralizes the stomach acid and impairs
digestion.

*** I think I will shock the list and say the pressure-cooked bone
would be my preference over ground, especially in view of the fact
that he is passing the ground bits whole. If he is not digesting the
ground bone, he is not getting any benefit from it. Many of the
minerals will leach out of the cooked bone and into the water, so I
would feed that as well.

*** Were it my dog, I would feed raw pancreas with every meal, or if
that were not available, a prescription-strength enzyme supplement.
The over the counter ones are not strong enough, and ones like
ProZyme contain much amylase which he doesn't need, and not nearly
enough proteases and lipases. I would also have a fecal elastase
test done--not expensive, not invasive, and might help answer the
question of why bone is not being digested.

*** Once the dog is getting back on track health-wise, I might feed
a test portion of ground bone and see if it comes out the same way
it went in.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (8)
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4b. Re: problem with pooped out bone
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:11 pm ((PDT))

>*** Once the dog is getting back on track health-wise, I might feed a test portion of ground >bone and see if it comes out the same way it went in

That will be good idea. If dog could not digest bone at all, then, she could use grounded Egg shell(calcium source) to compensate for not eating bone in diet.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Re: introduced pork today...question
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:02 pm ((PDT))

>Tonight she threw up bone fragments with bile

I think if she vomited bile with bone, the meal got too much bone and the one that your dog could not digest came out from mouth.

How much boneless pork meat did you feed?

I think if the dog was hungry,usually be just bile.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Keeping white fur white- especially paws.
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:02 pm ((PDT))

Hi Kae,

I have a Boston with a white chin and neck and especially when he eats
his Kongs, that area gets nice and red/brown. I've noticed it just
goes away after a day or two. Now if he was eating Kongs with red meat
every day, I suppose it would be constant...His paws have some white on
them, too, and they get somewhat brown. He cleans them, though, and
they aren't always brown. If it bothered me, I guess I'd just give him
a little wipe w/a wet washcloth or a rinse in the tub after a meal.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kaebruney" <kaebruney@...> wrote:
>
> What do you white coated dog owners do to keep your dogs muzzle and
> paws from looking stained and showing bloody residue? Or should I just
> consider it a byproduct of a healthy well fed dog and leave well
> enough alone? *lol*
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Keeping white fur white- especially paws.
Posted by: "Penny (Nickles) Parker" loverladymaggiemae@yahoo.com loverladymaggiemae
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:28 pm ((PDT))

-
> What do you white coated dog owners do to keep your dogs muzzle and
> paws from looking stained and showing bloody residue? Or should I just
> consider it a byproduct of a healthy well fed dog and leave well
> enough alone? *lol*
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kae
>

Kae,
I wash all of mine with mild dog shampoo and water about once a month
and daily they get their faces and paws cleaned well with baby wipes.
Works for me!
Penny & The Menagerie

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Big chunks of food - when do I take it away?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:02 pm ((PDT))

Hi Tracey,

Taking it away after 15 minutes is kind of arbitrary. People usually
use that kind of guideline if their dog ISN'T eating and is being
picky (whole different purpose). If you know how much the item
weighs, and how much you want a meal to be, you can either estimate
when they've eaten that amount (1/2 of the hunk or whatever) or pick
it up and weigh it and see how much they've eaten, and remove it when
they've eaten what you want. You will get better at visualizing what
an appropriate size meal is. Or you can try letting them get their
fill and see if they start self-regulating better (eating less
following big meal days). If they don't, and get fat, you might have
to regulate for them. If the skinny one takes awhile to eat, that's
ok--no need to remove the food before s/he's done.

Gas seems to be worse with big meals or fatty meals. My dog also
gets gas if he's had his raw meal and then we decide to give him a
few bites of our starchy foods (fruits/veggies/grains/etc.). It
might get better over time as their digestive systems improve.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "trayck" <trayck@...> wrote:

> How do I regulate how much they eat per day so they don't end up
too
> fat or skinny as I want to try and maintain the 2 - 3 % of
bodyweight
> I am feeding per day?
>
> Also any suggestions on what to give to the dogs to help decrease
the
> stinky air bombs that sometimes occur?
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: not eating enough
Posted by: "ptrsrgnt" ptrsrgnt@yahoo.ca ptrsrgnt
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:03 pm ((PDT))

They don't really like the organ meat but they know that they can take
it or leave it. They usually take it but very slowly. I give it frozen
because they won't touch it thawed.

In my last enquiry a few weeks ago, they were having runny poops and I
was told that this was because they were being fed too much at one
meal and to split it into two meals per day. The advise said that they
are too young to be fed just once a day. That they should be at least
a year old before going to one meal per day.

The usual recommendation for feeding is 2 or 3% of their ideal adult
body weight per day. This works out to between 11 and 17 ounces for
Maggie and between 21 and 31 ounces for Gypsy, Split between two meals.
Maggie used to get 6 ounces for breakfast and 8 ounces for supper (all
she would eat) but for the last few weeks she rarely eats her supper.
Gypsy would always eat everything and more but she was doing runny
poops and I was advised to split the amount into two meals, which I
did and it definately helped. Now they both do solid poops. So I am
wary of increasing the size of the meals.

The food is given in one piece chunks and they chew at them. As I said
they are in excellent condition and have so much energy, but I don't
know how Maggie is able to run around so much with only 6 ounces of
food. Gypsy eventually eats her supper while Maggie usually leaves
hers, but they are both not as keen as they used to be.
That was the reason for my question "Has anyone had experience with
their dog GOING OFF RAW food".
It could be the hot weather these past few weeks.
But they are not losing weight right now, so I will keep a close eye
on both of them.

Thanks for all the answers. I will have to experiment more.

Peter

Messages in this topic (6)
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9a. Re: where to feed dogs
Posted by: "swilken61" powrfemme@aol.com swilken61
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:23 pm ((PDT))

> Well, Bugs brings the bully into my lap and I sit there and hold it
for
> him while he chews on it! :-)

One of my dogs actually does like to sit on my lap while she chews her
sticks. She doesn't seem to be able to settle down otherwise and just
harrasses my other dog while she eats hers. On the couch.

Since I started the raw feeding adventure, my gross-out threshold has
gotten my higher than bully stick on the couch! The ones I get have
very little odor, and quite frankly I have too many other damands on my
time to worry too much about it.

So far, two meals in a row have been eaten in the kitchen on towels
wihtout too much trouble, so it seems to be going okay.

stephany

Messages in this topic (13)
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9b. Re: where to feed dogs
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:09 pm ((PDT))

>One of my dogs actually does like to sit on my lap while she chews her
sticks. She doesn't seem to be able to settle down otherwise and just
harrasses my other dog while she eats hers. On the couch.

>Since I started the raw feeding adventure, my gross-out threshold has gotten my higher >than bully stick on the couch!

Hi. palette used to snack every rawhide I gave wherever she wants to nibble on,but without any concious,I kept take it away from her and put it back to her Comfort zone bed,and now she eats all her chew stuff such as bully sticks on her bed in living room downstairs ,or Cool bed upstairs.

Only Deer antlers, you can find on carpet and she lay down like super-man and munch on it now and then. I don't mind. It is not going to be sticky and not going to get color onto carpet.

>So far, two meals in a row have been eaten in the kitchen on towels wihtout too much >trouble, so it seems to be going okay.

I section off with puppy pen by straighting up the panels,from kitchen to the other room.

Then, I place shower curtain (vynile one not cotton one),and she eats there. I wipe 50water 50 vinegar solution for easy clean up and I wash it weekly.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (13)
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9c. Re: where to feed dogs
Posted by: "Renate Hotchkiss" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:10 pm ((PDT))

Sorry for my ignorance, but what the heck is a bully stick?

On 8/31/07, swilken61 <powrfemme@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, Bugs brings the bully into my lap and I sit there and hold it
> for
> > him while he chews on it! :-)
> .
>
>
>

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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10a. Re: I need to find a Holistic Vet in the Dallas area....
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:10 pm ((PDT))

Thank you Sara, I'll check this site and see if I can find one
nearby.
Cori

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Sarra <wildlycrafty@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> coriowen wrote:
> > I actually live SE of Dallas, out near Canton. If anyone knows
of one
> > closer to Rockwall, or Mesquite or one that is in the Easern side
of
> > Dallas, I would really appreciate the recommendation.
>
> I don't have any personal experience with any of the vets on this
list.
>
>

http://www.dogpack.com/directory/DFWHolisticVets.html
>
>
> Sarra
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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10b. Re: I need to find a Holistic Vet in the Dallas area....
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:13 pm ((PDT))

Katie,
Thanks for the info on your vet but Plano is a good 70 miles away
from me. I would like to find one that is at least in Mesquite or
East Dallas that is about 45-55 miles from me. Again, I appreciate
the help. =)
Cori

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Katie" <kcrockett@...> wrote:
>
> My vet is in Plano - slightly north of Dallas. She is not a
proponent of a raw diet, but doesn't
> give me grief about it either. (And she is AWESOME!!!) However -
she has a vet that works
> with her who is a holistic vet, I believe. I'm not sure she
embraces a prey model, but she
> might be worth talking to. E-mail me off list and I'll give you
her info.
>
> ...katie
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Pamela Picard" <pet.wellness@>
wrote:
> >
> > --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "coriowen" <COwen98@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I actually live SE of Dallas, out near Canton. If anyone knows
of one
> > > closer to Rockwall, or Mesquite or one that is in the Easern
side of
> > > Dallas, I would really appreciate the recommendation.
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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11. Pet care
Posted by: "Anita" craftyhoosiermama@gmail.com anita42776
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:10 pm ((PDT))

Hi-
I have a few questions about pet care and boarding on a raw diet. We
have a few trips coming up before the end of the year.
We've used a pet sitter in the past but recently had a bad experience
with one and my dh really just wants to kennel her from now on. My
concern though is (assuming we won't be ably to find one who will keep
up with the raw diet) what will the flip flop in food do to her
digestion system? She has pretty bad separation anxiety and is prone
to accidents from stomach upset already.

What other options are there for when you travel but can't take your
dog with you?

Thanks,
Anita

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12. My Saints and apples
Posted by: "alluponjanice" alluponjanice@yahoo.com alluponjanice
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:11 pm ((PDT))

My Boy and girl seem to be fond of apples! Whenever my wife eats them
they want them too.I am afraid she is going to set one on the table one
day and (poof!)they're eating apple! My question is if they get hold of
one is it harmful
Thanks CHRISTIAN ( KING SOLOMON and QUEEN MAKEDA)

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13a. Pork Stomach?
Posted by: "Penelope Quillen" copperquillpen@hotmail.com copperquillpen1958
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:14 pm ((PDT))

When I was at the store, I also saw a package labeled "Empty Pork Stomach."
It was right next to the pork liver. Is that good for anything? And I know
this is not really on the subject, but can people eat pork liver? Penelope

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13b. Re: Pork Stomach?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:26 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/31/2007 2:14:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
copperquillpen@hotmail.com writes:

When I was at the store, I also saw a package labeled "Empty Pork Stomach."
It was right next to the pork liver. Is that good for anything? And I know
this is not really on the subject, but can people eat pork liver?

Penelope,

yes people can eat pork liver.. lol. Pork stomachs in people food grocery
stores here in the USA are cleaned and scalded (boiled) to clean them to make
them "safe" for people to eat. For dogs they make ok chew toys but are not
food..

Catherine R.

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