[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11995

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. 1st time feeding Beef
From: Penelope Quillen

2a. Re: PET CARE EXPERT CAUTIONS AGAINST RAW FOOD DIET FOR DOGS?
From: Giselle
2b. Re: PET CARE EXPERT CAUTIONS AGAINST RAW FOOD DIET FOR DOGS?
From: Morledzep@aol.com
2c. Re: PET CARE EXPERT CAUTIONS AGAINST RAW FOOD DIET FOR DOGS?
From: pelirojita

3.1. Re: New To Raw
From: Morledzep@aol.com

4a. Re: Coyotes
From: wandaful
4b. Re: Coyotes
From: Giselle
4c. Re: Coyotes
From: cypressbunny
4d. Re: Coyotes
From: Morledzep@aol.com
4e. Re: Coyotes
From: Giselle

5a. Re: Are Emu bones too hard to feed.??
From: brutus_buckley

6. Re: emu meat
From: Morledzep@aol.com

7a. Hacking question....
From: corndoggirl1977
7b. Re: Hacking question....
From: Giselle

8a. Re: What is your opinion on this?
From: ginny wilken
8b. Re: What is your opinion on this?
From: Morledzep@aol.com
8c. Re: What is your opinion on this?
From: ginny wilken
8d. Re: What is your opinion on this?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

9. Re: Need Advice on what to order? Update on information about their
From: Brandi Bryant

10a. Re: Please help very nervous
From: chrisstfo@aol.com
10b. Re: Please help very nervous
From: chrisstfo@aol.com
10c. Re: Please help very nervous
From: Giselle

11. Need Advice on what to order?
From: Brandi Bryant

12. Re: Digest Number 11992
From: tantelin22@aol.com

13. Re: Need Advice on what to order? Update on information abou...
From: Morledzep@aol.com

Messages
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1. 1st time feeding Beef
Posted by: "Penelope Quillen" copperquillpen@hotmail.com copperquillpen1958
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:53 pm ((PDT))

Well, since I was making myself a hamburger for Labor Day dinner, I decided
to try MandyLynn on raw beef. She did just fine. She ate what she wanted & I
put the rest back in the frig for later. One thing I have noticed since
feeding her the raw, is her fur. It has gotten softer, & she hasn't been
scratching as much. I had noticed some dry skin around the bottom of her
tail, top part. It is almost gone. The dry skin. So I told my friend about
this, because her cat has been having the same problem. I don't think she
will go completely raw, but her kitty will most likely get some fresh fish.
Penelope

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Re: PET CARE EXPERT CAUTIONS AGAINST RAW FOOD DIET FOR DOGS?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:57 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Tommy!
Of course! *smacks forehead*

They sell, wait for it...... "Dry and Canned Formulas Beyond natural,
it's real nutritionâ„¢ "

No bias there, nope, no sirree Bob!

What a load of cr*p. *sheesh*

When you look to their real motivation for writing this stuff, and
trying to scare people away from raw feeding, it always comes down to
the $$.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

btw Tommy, we speak out against this sort of BS on this list every day.

> I have read this article and found it full of holes and undocumented
> facts. Does anyone know if on of our advocates has done a rebuttal to
> this? What a bag of crap. It is America and we are free to speak, even
> if it is a bunch of excuse me "ca ca". Has anyone read anyone speak
> out against this yet?

> Tommy D.
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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2b. Re: PET CARE EXPERT CAUTIONS AGAINST RAW FOOD DIET FOR DOGS?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 9:10 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/3/2007 7:11:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
tdifraia@comcast.net writes:

_http://www.azmira.com/StudyRawFoodDiets.htm_

(http://www.azmira.com/StudyRawFoodDiets.htm)

***this is an article about a diet that this list does NOT advocate.. not an
issue.. doesn't deserve the time of day.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (6)
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2c. Re: PET CARE EXPERT CAUTIONS AGAINST RAW FOOD DIET FOR DOGS?
Posted by: "pelirojita" kerrymurray7@gmail.com pelirojita
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 11:57 pm ((PDT))

Yeah...that Dr. and her company are based out of Tucson, AZ. Her
ki**le is so great you need to spend $30-(insert dollar number
here)/month on her very pricey "holistic" supplements in order to keep
your dog healthy on the Azmira brand.

Since I'm in Tucson, I've tried some of her products in hopes of
handling the issues my golden retriever was dealing with. Shockingly
enough, my dog never got better, I just got poorer.

2 months in to raw and we are so not looking back. My golden
retriever is starting to recover from 9 years of wrong-headedness on
behalf of her human companions.

You can't really rebut an author whose mind is closed. Maybe the
TucsonRaw buying co-op should just add her to the mailing list ;)

Take care,
Kerry
Tucson, AZ

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 9/3/2007 7:11:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> tdifraia@... writes:
>
> _http://www.azmira.com/StudyRawFoodDiets.htm_

> (http://www.azmira.com/StudyRawFoodDiets.htm)
>
>
>
> ***this is an article about a diet that this list does NOT
advocate.. not an
> issue.. doesn't deserve the time of day.
>
> Catherine R.
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the
all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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3.1. Re: New To Raw
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 9:08 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/3/2007 5:28:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
proudfootkennels@sympatico.ca writes:

Marcella,

lets start with basics..

Is there a rule of thumb that states 10% fat, 30% chicken, 30 % fish... etc.
etc.... and then how much of each is bone?

**yes, basic approximations are 10% edible bone, 10% organs (liver and other
organs, it's important to not overdo liver), and 80% Meat, fat, skin,
connective tissue, digestive tract parts, fat, meat and everything else..

before you get hung up on percentages.. think of it like this: MEAT on a
bone, Meaty meat, and some organs.. do NOT look for BONES with meat on
them..examples: when you look at a pork picnic roast, that is a meaty bone, when you see
a pork neck bone, that is a bone with some meat on it..

If I am looking to feed 2 adolescant males that are 'still' growing, and a
few adolescant females as well as a couple of adult females... are their
individual ratios going to differ according to age, excersise, and consumption
levels?

**Pretty much no.. you figure the starting points as 2 - 3% of each dogs'
ideal adult weight. And as you see how each dog responds to that amount of food
you adjust. if they become skinnier, add more food. if they start getting
tubby, reduce the amount of food (on an individual dog basis, not as a group).

Lastly...(for now) when I am looking at feeding pregnant mom is there
anything different I should do in my tactics of feeding? I am hoping that by
switching over to raw I am going to be able to help eliminate or lessen the need for
C-sections due to uterine inertia.. is this even possible?

yes.. this is an easy one.. most bitches will do this naturally.. but towards
the last half of the pregnancy you want to reduce the amount of bone the
bitch gets prior to whelping. Excessive calcium is the cause of uterine inertia,
reducing the amount of bone in the diet in the latter stages of the pregnancy
reduces this risk.

from what i've seen on this list, most bitches do this naturally. they will
refuse to eat bone, get real interested in mostly eating organ meats towards
the end. they often end up with runny stools, but that is a MINOR problem.

I've also heard that allowing the bitch to eat the placentasafter the birth
of each of the pups during labor signals her body to push again for the next
pup to come out.. so do NOT keep her from eating the placenta even though you
know she's gonna have nasty runny poo for a few days afterwards..

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (36)
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4a. Re: Coyotes
Posted by: "wandaful" rondarosa@ftcnet.net rondaros
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 9:13 pm ((PDT))

I am NOT wanting to argue, but am curious. And, of course, it matters to me where the information on this list comes from. How do we KNOW that all domestic dogs are from grey wolf inbreeding? And could you explain to me how what a wild animal is eating is not "appropriate" for that wild animal to eat. That seems like kind of a far out statement to me. I do understand the different in hunting and pack structure between the two.
Ok, since I was asked to trim and resubmit this I have done a bit of web surfing and found an answer to my first question, I guess, but the same site seemed to support that red wolves may be a grey wolf/coyote hybrid.

http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne2.htm

Anyway, I also just realized this list probably isn't the place for me because we are supposed to discuss only diet here and it seems to me that a dog's health has to do with more than just his diet. Guess I am interested in a General Practitioner instead of a specialist, so to speak.
wanda

Messages in this topic (9)
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4b. Re: Coyotes
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 9:22 pm ((PDT))

You can always carry it over to raw chat. : )
Plenty of room for discussion there what's OT here.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/?yguid=200913350
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I am NOT wanting to argue, but am curious.
<snip>
> Anyway, I also just realized this list probably isn't the place for
me because we are supposed to discuss only diet here and it seems to
me that a dog's health has to do with more than just his diet. Guess
I am interested in a General Practitioner instead of a specialist, so
to speak.
> wanda
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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4c. Re: Coyotes
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 9:40 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "darkstardog" <darkstardog@...>
wrote:
>
> > The reason we look to wolves to learn what to feed our
dogs,
> > is that dogs ARE wolves, right down in their DNA.

> I've heard this argument before, and I personally have never been
> convinced by it.

*** Not one to let the facts stand in your way?

> Coyotes are the closest relatives to dogs and wolves,
> and they are similar enough to produce hybrids.

*** Coyotes may or may not be the closest relatives to the wolf;
there are
other members of genus Canis that are also close relatives. Just as
chimps are close relatives of Homo sapiens (I don't personally
relish a diet of leaves and termites, though). Coyote-wolf hybrids
are
usually sterile, however. Are donkeys and horses the same species
since they can produce mules?

(In fact, if I
> understand correctly, the red wolf may be a coyote-wolf hybrid and
not
> a separate species at all.)

*** That debate continues, but nobody is arguing that the dog is the
same species as the red wolf. The red wolf is Canis rufus. Dogs are
the same species as the grey wolf: Canis lupus. Whether the red wolf
bred with coyotes and/or grey wolves is of no importance when it
comes to evaluating the appropriate diet for the dog.

> It seems very possible to me that there is
> not a significant difference in the ability of wolves and coyotes
> to digest and absorb and use various foods.

*** If you choose to feed your dogs as if they were a different
species than what they actually are, I can't stop you.

> It seems reasonable to me
> that the difference in diet has to do with the efficiency of a
> pack of the larger wolves going after large game animals, a
> behavioral difference rather than a digestive difference.

*** How, then, do you explain small carnivores? Weasels, for
example, are small solo hunters that are strict carnivores. Coyotes
are capable of bringing down far larger game than weasels, yet they
still eat far more plant matter than their wolf cousins.

> To me, it
> is reasonable to consider that what a coyote eats is within the
> spectrum of what a dog could eat.

*** What a dog *could* eat? Sure. I've seen dogs eat all sorts of
things--drywall, lightbulbs, tampons, silk scarves and other
clothing, etc. etc. And certainly, wolves without appropriate prey
will eat whatever they can find, in a pinch. I personally choose to
feed my dogs as if they were wolves in a time of plenty: whole prey.
They are not coyotes, they are not red wolves, they are grey wolves
with a relatively short history of genetic manipulation by humans.
Therefore, the diet of choice of the grey wolf is the most
appropriate and best diet I can feed my dogs.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (9)
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4d. Re: Coyotes
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 9:45 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/3/2007 8:14:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rondarosa@ftcnet.net writes:

Anyway, I also just realized this list probably isn't the place for me
because we are supposed to discuss only diet here and it seems to me that a dog's
health has to do with more than just his diet. Guess I am interested in a
General Practitioner instead of a specialist, so to speak.

Wanda,

don't know if you're still here or not.. but i want you to understand that
this list is exactly the place for you and our sister list Rawchat. the more
abstract ideas generally get discussed over there. The more hands on, how to
questions about feeding a species appropriate diet are discussed here.

i tried to read that article.. i'm no scientist and i freely admit it.
NOTHING in that article makes sense to me. i think that some scientists add in
extra symbols and numbers to make things look legitimate and to impress lay
people.

And the articles i sent were simple to read in plain English that stated with
facts to back it up, that grey wolves and red wolves have almost nothing in
common and true red wolves have been extinct in the wild for about 20 years and
are more closely related to coyotes than grey wolves.

What this all boils down to in the end, no matter how much you want to argue,
is this: dogs are directly descended from grey wolves, their outward shape
has changed with breeding and genetic manipulation, but the insides are still
the same and the same nutritional requirements still exist. That means that
they can exist on crap and carbs, but they thrive on the prey animals that eat
vegetation.

I don't remember who said this.. and it's not a direct quote by any means:
we (as humans) benefit nutritionally from vegetables and meat from
herbivores. the vegetables get their nutrition from the soil, but we can't eat the dirt
and gain nutrition from it. Wolves get their nutrition from the herbivores
that eat the vegetation, they don't derive their nutrition from the plants that
the herbivores eat.

it makes sense to me anyway,
Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (9)
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4e. Re: Coyotes
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 12:46 am ((PDT))

Hmmmm, verrry interesting.....

wiki says;
DOG
Conservation status
Domesticated
Scientific classification
Domain: Eukaryota
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Canidae
Genus: Canis
Species: C. lupus
Subspecies: C. l. familiaris
Trinomial name
Canis lupus familiaris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog

Wolf ancestors

Although all wolves belong to the species Canis lupus, there are (or
were) many subspecies that had developed a distinctive appearance,
social structure, and other traits. For example, the Japanese Wolf and
the Eastern Timber Wolf possess different distinctive coloration,
hunting and social structures.
**** The origin of the dog is so ancient and so worldwide that many
varieties of wolf played a part in it.
**** It is wrong to say that dogs descended from modern wolves. They
descended from ancestral wolves, and this difference must always be
kept in mind. Ancestral wolves of many varieties existed all over the
world. ****

The Indian Wolf is thought to have contributed to the development of
more breeds of dogs than other subspecies. Many of today's wild dogs,
such as the dingo and the pariah dogs, are descended from this wolf.
The Indian Wolf is also thought to have bred with descendants of the
European wolf to create the Mastiffs and eventually leading to the
development of such diverse breeds as the Pug, the Saint Bernard, and
the Bloodhound. The Tibetan Mastiff is an example of an ancient breed.

The European wolf, in turn, may have contributed many of its
attributes to the Spitz dog types, most terriers, and many of today's
sheepdogs. The Chinese wolf is probably ancestor to the Pekingese and
toy spaniels, although it is also probable that descendants of the
Chinese and European wolves encountered each other over the millennia,
contributing to many of the oriental toy breeds.

The Eastern Timber Wolf is a direct ancestor to most, if not all, of
the North American northern sled dog types. This interbreeding still
occurs with dogs living in the Arctic region, where the attributes of
the wolf that enable survival in a hostile environment are valued by
humans. Additionally, unintentional crossbreeding occurs simply
because dogs and wolves live in the same environment. The general
reproductive isolation which is required to define dogs and wolves as
separate species is purely a result of lack of opportunity, stemming
from a general mutual unfamiliarity, suspicion, mistrust, and fear.

The phenotypic characteristics that distinguish a wolf from a dog are
tenuous. Wolves typically have a "brush tail" and erect ears. While
some dog breeds possess one of these characteristics, they rarely
possess both.

WOLF
Conservation status

Least Concern [1]
Scientific classification
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Canidae
Genus: Canis
Species: C. lupus
Binomial name
Canis lupus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf

The Gray Wolf (Canis lupus), also known as the Timber Wolf or, simply,
Wolf, is a mammal of the order Carnivora. The Gray Wolf is the largest
member of the genus Canis. Its shoulder height ranges from 0.6 to 0.9
meters (26â€"36 inches) and its weight typically varies between 32 and
62 kilograms (70â€"135 pounds). As evidenced by DNA sequencing and
genetic drift studies, the gray wolf shares a common ancestry with the
domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris). [2]

Relation to the dog

Much debate has centered on the relationship between the wolf and the
domestic dog, though most authorities see the wolf as the dog's direct
ancestor. Others postulate that dogs descend from the Golden Jackal.
Because the canids have evolved recently and different canids
interbreed readily, untangling the true relationships has been difficult.

**** But molecular systematics now indicate very strongly that
domestic dogs and wolves are more closely related than either is to
any other canid, and the domestic dog is now normally classified as a
subspecies of the wolf: Canis lupus familiaris. ****

The main differences between wolves and domestic dogs are that wolves
have, on average, 20% larger brains, better immune systems, a better
sense of smell, and are generally much larger than domestic dogs.[4

Coyote
Conservation status

Least Concern [1]
Scientific classification
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Canidae
Genus: Canis
Species: C. latrans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote
Diet and hunting

Coyotes are versatile carnivores with a 90% mammalian diet. They
primarily eat small mammals, such as eastern cottontails,
thirteen-lined ground squirrels, and white-footed mice, though they
will occasionally eat birds, snakes, large insects and other large
invertebrates. Though they will consume large amounts of carrion, they
tend to prefer fresh meat. Part of the coyote's success as a species
is it's dietary adaptability. As such, coyotes have been known to
readily eat human garbage and household pets. Fruits and vegetables
are a significant part of the coyote's diet in the autumn and winter
months.[2]

Coyotes will sometimes mate with domestic dogs, usually in areas like
Texas and Oklahoma where the coyotes are plentiful and the breeding
season is extended because of the warm weather. The resulting hybrids
called coydogs maintain the coyote's predatory nature, along with the
dog's lack of timidity toward humans, making them a usually more
serious threat to livestock than pure blooded animals. This cross
breeding has the added effecct of confusing the breeding cycle.
Coyotes usually breed only once a year, while coydogs will breed
year-round, producing many more pups than a wild coyote. A
distinguishable feature in a coydog is the ears and tail.[9]

Coyotes have also been known on occasion to mate with wolves. The
offspring, known as a coywolf is generally intermediate in size to
both parents, being larger than a pure coyote, but smaller than a pure
wolf. A study showed that of 100 coyotes collected in Maine, 22 had
half or more wolf ancestry, and one was 89 percent wolf. A theory has
been proposed that the large eastern coyotes in Canada are actually
hybrids of the smaller western coyotes and wolves that met and mated
decades ago as the coyotes moved toward New England from their earlier
western ranges.[8] The red wolf is considered by some to be a
wolf/coyote hybrid, due to its habit of readily mating with coyotes
and the fact that it carries no unique genetic trait that would make
it distinct from coyotes and grey wolves.[10]

Canidae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canidae

Scientific classification
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Suborder: Caniformia
Family: Canidae
G. Fischer de Waldheim, 1817
Genera

* Alopex
* Atelocynus
* Canis
* Cerdocyon
* Chrysocyon
* Cuon
* Cynotherium †
* Dusicyon †
* Dasycyon †
* Fennecus (Part of Vulpes)
* Lycalopex (Part of Pseudalopex)
* Lycaon
* Nyctereutes
* Otocyon
* Pseudalopex
* Speothos
* Urocyon
* Vulpes

Messages in this topic (9)
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5a. Re: Are Emu bones too hard to feed.??
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 9:14 pm ((PDT))

On a side note, having recently obtained some emu, I must say that it
is some of the prettiest meat I have seen. What a lovely color it is! I
had no idea it was so red. Oh yeah, and the dogs love it.
-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (4)
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6. Re: emu meat
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 9:24 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/3/2007 8:14:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
brutus_buckley@yahoo.com writes:

On a side note, having recently obtained some emu, I must say that it
is some of the prettiest meat I have seen. What a lovely color it is! I
had no idea it was so red. Oh yeah, and the dogs love it.

Renee,

my dad raised emu for years.. unfortunately before we started feeding raw.
he suckered us into taking emu roasts and steaks home to cook for our
families.. and found that emu SUCKS.. LOL.

but, after my dad is long gone and the emu are all sold.. i started feeding
raw and find that emu is a major favorite meat for the wolf folks.. figures now
that it's not free anymore..

Catherine R.

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7a. Hacking question....
Posted by: "corndoggirl1977" crystalandbrock@bellsouth.net corndoggirl1977
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 9:45 pm ((PDT))

My dog has been making this hacking noise and nothing is coming up.
It almost sounds like a cat does when they have a hairball. Could
this be bone stuck somewhere?

Thanks,
Crystal

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Hacking question....
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 10:03 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Chrystal!
Most likely kennel cough.
"KENNEL COUGH
Canine infectious tracheobronchitis (kennel cough) is one of the most
prevalent infectious diseases in dogs. Fortunately, the majority of
cases are not serious. Kennel cough can be caused by a number of
different airborne bacteria (such as Bordetella bronchiseptica) and
viruses (such as canine parainfluenza) or a mycoplasma (an organism
somewhere between a virus and a bacteria). Typically, more than one of
these pathogens (disease-causing agents) must bombard the dog at once
to trigger illness. Such a multifaceted attack is most likely to occur
when a dog spends time in close quarters with many other dogs. Dogs
that attend dog shows, travel frequently, or stay at kennels have a
higher risk of developing kennel cough than do dogs that stay at home
most of the time. The primary sign of kennel cough is a dry- sounding,
spasmodic cough caused by pathogens that induce inflammation of the
trachea (windpipe) and bronchi (air passages into the lungs). At the
end of a coughing spell, a dog will often retch and cough up a white
foamy discharge. Some dogs also develop conjunctivitis (inflammation
of the membrane lining the eyelids), rhinitis (inflammation of the
nasal mucous membrane), and a nasal discharge. Affected dogs usually
remain active and alert and continue to eat well."
"The most common complaint heard by veterinarians is that "it sounds
like the dog has something caught in his throat."

Has he been boarded lately? Been to the vet? Go to the dog park? Had a
play date? Doggie Day Care? How about the neighbor's dogs?
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> My dog has been making this hacking noise and nothing is coming up.
> It almost sounds like a cat does when they have a hairball. Could
> this be bone stuck somewhere?
>
> Thanks,
> Crystal
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: What is your opinion on this?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 11:23 pm ((PDT))

On Sep 3, 2007, at 6:33 PM, tottime47 wrote:

>
> Ok, I probably won't want to know after I find out, but what are
> these?
>
> Carol, Charkee & Moli
>
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:
> And yes,
>> she'd feed satin balls, and Mickey D's to her stud dog.
>> ginny and Tomo

Big Macs, nothing else. But to me those are death, right up there
with the deep-fried Twinkies.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
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8b. Re: What is your opinion on this?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 11:28 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/3/2007 10:24:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
gwilken@alamedanet.net writes:

Big Macs, nothing else. But to me those are death, right up there
with the deep-fried Twinkies.

Ginny,

those are great american staples.. how can americans live without big macs
and deep fried twinkies?

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (18)
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8c. Re: What is your opinion on this?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 11:40 pm ((PDT))

On Sep 3, 2007, at 11:28 PM, Morledzep@aol.com wrote:

> Ginny,
>
> those are great american staples.. how can americans live without
> big macs
> and deep fried twinkies?
>
> Catherine R.

Gee, um, I can't imagine....maybe the way dogs manage somehow without
Purina. Poor deprived things....

Seriously, I surely manage just fine on what I eat. And I just don't
get it about the self-indulgence that surrounds food in this culture.
What is so much fun about treating yourself badly?

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (18)
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8d. Re: What is your opinion on this?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 11:44 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/3/2007 10:40:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
gwilken@alamedanet.net writes:

What is so much fun about treating yourself badly?

my dogs eat better than i do.. there is no doubt about that. but then again,
i'm responsible for their health.. they aren't responsible for mine.

i'm a sucker for ice cream and my homemade carrot cake.. but i at least know
the ingredients in the junk food i make for myself.. as if that's an excuse to
get fatter.. lol.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (18)
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9. Re: Need Advice on what to order? Update on information about their
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 11:57 pm ((PDT))

UPDATE: After sending the email below I went to the website.
"Welcome to the web site of McFerron's Quality Meats, Inc, situated in
the heart of Oklahoma's "Green Country." Surrounded by the best cattle
country in the midwest, we pride ourselves by providing grain fed beef
to consumers, both wholesale and retail. We hope your visit is
informative and helpful" -

The grain fed beef is a no no when you're feeding raw isn't it? :(

If anybody wants to look at the website it's http://www.mcferrons.com/index.html

Suggestions,
Brandi
Bartlesville OK

On 9/3/07, Brandi Bryant <bbryant573@gmail.com> wrote:
> Someone suggested that I look in the phone book for meat processing
> plants which i did. Called a few and emailed one of them -this is
> what she responded with when I emailed her and told her that I had my
> dogs on a RAW diet...and that I was looking into maybe buying in bulk
> -
>
> sorry I have been so long in answering your email...if you would let me know
> what kind of product you would like for your dogs I'm sure we can do
> something to help you...we have been known to save bull livers for people
> who feed their dogs raw product...but the liver does have a tendency to
> upset the bowels...however, we are an inspected plant and can't sell any
> product without a label so we are unable to save bone meal and mix it as
> some places do ...let me know what you have in mind and I'll try to be
> prompt in my response...Lmc
>
>
> If they are an "inspected plant" that's a good thing right? And I'm
> not looking for bone meal am I? And right now I have my dogs on
> turkey and the last 2 days they've gotten a little bit of boneless
> pork steaks. What shouId I tell her? I don't know if they do chicken
> or not. I think just beef and pork. I need to look at their website
> again.
>
> Any suggestions?
> Thanks
> Brandi
> Bartlesville, Ok
> www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com
>

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: Please help very nervous
Posted by: "chrisstfo@aol.com" chrisstfo@aol.com chrisstfo
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 11:58 pm ((PDT))

Thank You, What is BEA I am also located in NJ. Thanks Again for all the
info... Chris

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10b. Re: Please help very nervous
Posted by: "chrisstfo@aol.com" chrisstfo@aol.com chrisstfo
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 11:58 pm ((PDT))

Great Reply! Thanks really appreciate it I will be showing this to my
wife.... Thank You, Chris NJ

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10c. Re: Please help very nervous
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 12:10 am ((PDT))

Hi, Chris!
YQW!
Bea is a (mostly) black Newfy, 6 yo rescue. She came to me at 2 yo,
started eating raw and never looked back! ; )
Cape May County here.
TC
G

> Thank You, What is BEA I am also located in NJ. Thanks Again for
all the
> info... Chris

Messages in this topic (15)
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11. Need Advice on what to order?
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 11:59 pm ((PDT))

Someone suggested that I look in the phone book for meat processing
plants which i did. Called a few and emailed one of them -this is
what she responded with when I emailed her and told her that I had my
dogs on a RAW diet...and that I was looking into maybe buying in bulk
-

sorry I have been so long in answering your email...if you would let me know
what kind of product you would like for your dogs I'm sure we can do
something to help you...we have been known to save bull livers for people
who feed their dogs raw product...but the liver does have a tendency to
upset the bowels...however, we are an inspected plant and can't sell any
product without a label so we are unable to save bone meal and mix it as
some places do ...let me know what you have in mind and I'll try to be
prompt in my response...Lmc

If they are an "inspected plant" that's a good thing right? And I'm
not looking for bone meal am I? And right now I have my dogs on
turkey and the last 2 days they've gotten a little bit of boneless
pork steaks. What shouId I tell her? I don't know if they do chicken
or not. I think just beef and pork. I need to look at their website
again.

Any suggestions?
Thanks
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

Messages in this topic (1)
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12. Re: Digest Number 11992
Posted by: "tantelin22@aol.com" tantelin22@aol.com tantelindar
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 12:00 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/3/2007 5:50:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com writes:

The reason we look to wolves to learn what to feed our dogs,
is that dogs ARE wolves, right down in their DNA.
Dogs are not coyotes, just as they are not humans, so feeding a dog
what a coyote eats would not serve our purpose, which is to feed an
optimal species appropriate diet to our dogs.

====================
IIRC, the lastest information is that dogs, wolves and coyotes are all
conspecific; they are just subspecies of the same rootstock.

Wolves are Canis lupus lupus
Dogs are Canis lupus familiaris
Coyotes are Canis lupus latrans

Yes, coyotes have been known to steal fruit, but I can't imagine many of
them prefer fruit to fresh rabbit. They prefer fruit to starving.

OTOH, my old Jenny Manyteeth *adored* dried apricots, and, although she
hated grapefruit, she would willingly eat it if it meant sharing a meal with me.

Even dogs know that meals are social events as well as necessary body
maintenance.


<======================================== >
Blessed Be with An Honorable Peace!
Tante Lin

Maxine is my Hero! She says:
My idea of rebooting is kicking somebody in the butt twice.
Don't let aging get you down: it's too hard to get back up!
If you woke up breathing, congratulations!
You have another chance!
<===>

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Messages in this topic (1)
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13. Re: Need Advice on what to order? Update on information abou...
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 1:50 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/3/2007 10:58:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bbryant573@gmail.com writes:

The grain fed beef is a no no when you're feeding raw isn't it? :(

If anybody wants to look at the website it's
_http://www.mcferrons.com/index.html_ (http://www.mcferrons.com/index.html)

Brandi,

Grain fed is not ideal.. but it's what is readily available.. grass fed meat
of any kind is way out of most of our budgets..

we do the best we can with what is available to us. We choose to feed raw
meat, edible bones and organs to try to approximate a prey animal.. if we can't
do that, we get what's available in our price range and try for better variety
down the road.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (1)
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