[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11994

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: New To Raw
From: Marcella Burgess
1.2. Re: New To Raw
From: Giselle
1.3. Re: New To Raw - Giselle
From: tottime47
1.4. Re: New To Raw - Giselle
From: Giselle

2.1. Re: liver
From: Ivette Casiano

3a. Re: Leg Quarters
From: Brandi Bryant
3b. Re: Leg Quarters
From: Morledzep@aol.com

4a. Re: 1st time feeding raw _more info needed
From: hd_peterson
4b. Re: 1st time feeding raw _more info needed
From: tottime47

5a. Well, I've got a leaver and a burier...
From: steph.sorensen
5b. Re: Well, I've got a leaver and a burier...
From: Giselle

6a. Re: What is your opinion on this?
From: coriowen
6b. Re: What is your opinion on this?
From: tottime47
6c. Re: What is your opinion on this?
From: Giselle

7a. Re: wow
From: coriowen

8a. performance dogs
From: Linda Gower
8b. Re: performance dogs
From: Kaitlin Fraser

9a. Re: Fat ratios, & the fat around beef kidneys
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

10a. Re: Help! Sick pup
From: Monica

11a. Re: feeding mostly chicken
From: Sue

12a. PET CARE EXPERT CAUTIONS AGAINST RAW FOOD DIET FOR DOGS?
From: tdifr62
12b. Re: PET CARE EXPERT CAUTIONS AGAINST RAW FOOD DIET FOR DOGS?
From: Sandee Lee
12c. Re: PET CARE EXPERT CAUTIONS AGAINST RAW FOOD DIET FOR DOGS?
From: coriowen

13a. Re: Are Emu bones too hard to feed.??
From: doris_russel

14a. Re: greetings and long post sorry.
From: T. S.

Messages
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1.1. Re: New To Raw
Posted by: "Marcella Burgess" proudfootkennels@sympatico.ca marciongrass
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 6:28 pm ((PDT))

Thank you very much Catherine!

Okay .. here comes my first set of concerns/questions.....please be patient with me !!!
All my Boerboels are used to raw food as we used to supplement frequently, but I am unsure as to what to give them per week and in what ratio's....
Is there a rule of thumb that states 10% fat, 30% chicken, 30 % fish... etc. etc.... and then how much of each is bone?
If I am looking to feed 2 adolescant males that are 'still' growing, and a few adolescant females as well as a couple of adult females... are their individual ratios going to differ according to age, excersise, and consumption levels?
Lastly...(for now) when I am looking at feeding pregnant mom is there anything different I should do in my tactics of feeding? I am hoping that by switching over to raw I am going to be able to help eliminate or lessen the need for C-sections due to uterine inertia.. is this even possible?

Again... Thank you in advance for being so patient and polite!

Sincerely,
Marcella, Ontario

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (35)
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1.2. Re: New To Raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 6:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Marcella!
Patient, yes. But you'll have to be patient, too, as I'm
about to be very long winded!
None of which will deal with the pregnancy Q. You'll get great advice
soon from experienced list members who breed.
My recommendations:

1. You want to start with 2-3% of your dog's ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT
weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less
if your dog gets 'fluffy' over the space of a few weeks. You might
start out by weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps
don't continue once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding
raw. This is a guideline only; small or toy breeds or very active dogs
or performance dogs or pregnant dogs might need 4-5% or even more.
large or giant breeds or older, overweight or couch potato dogs may
need less than 2%. After feeding for a few weeks, you'll be able to
tell who needs more and who needs cutting back, just look at them and
run your hands over their ribs, back and hips.

2. Ditch the kibble â€" there’s been plenty of discussion on this list
about why kibble and raw don't mix; just let it suffice that your dog
can reap the benefits of raw faster and more completely if you donate
the kibble to your local shelter asap. A species appropriate raw whole
prey model diet doesn't include kibble.

3. Feed at least 2 meals a day to start with. (three meals for a pup
under 6 months old) Feeding once a day (or even less often) can be a
great feeding plan for a dog, but not at first; too much new food at a
meal can cause digestive upset. Feed as large a portion as you can for
the size of the meal. No little pieces or cut up, ‘bite sized’ chucks.
Dogs need to tear into their food and shear hunks off to swallow and
crunch bone for physical, mental and dental health. They don’t chew or
eat the way we do, their digestion begins in their stomachs, not in
their mouths. So swallowing big hunks of meat and bone is fine. If it
fits, its OK. If it isn’t happy in the stomach, the dog will hork it
up, and re eat it, so it will go down and stay down the 2nd or 3rd
time. All good, that’s the way dogs are.

4. Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive
upset, too.

5. Stay with one new protein for at least a week, maybe two. You want
the dog to be showing you he is well adjusted to the new protein
before adding in new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new protein
every week or two.

6. You can switch to a new protein by just serving it at the next
meal, and all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a
bite or two of the new protein in with the 'old' protein, gradually
adding more new and less 'old' over several days, until you are
feeding all new and no 'old'. Whatever works for your own dog.

7. Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
amount of bone in a newbie dog's meal will tend to firm things up.
There will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less
goes to waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason.
Bone adds bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (don't go
overboard!) bone at each meal at first.

8. Chicken is recommended as the first protein to be introduced for
several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, easy to cut into different
dog meal sized portions, you can trim visible fat and skin if you need
to tweak, most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland. Read the labels
on the chicken before you buy; don't get any that say its enhanced
with flavoring/seasonings or salt injected. Some dogs get itchy or
vomit or get true diarrhea from enhancements. Whole chickens are the
best to start with, ime. Cut into portion sizes with kitchen shears,
as needed.

9. Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much
bone may not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it
out. NPs, its just the dog's way of saying "Too much right now, thanks."

10. Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bile Vomits (BV or BBV)
when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating
have been changed. When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric 'juices'
become much more acid, to better digest the raw meat and bone. If he's
expecting a meal at a certain time, the 'juices start flowing' in
anticipation of getting a meal. When the meal doesn't happen, the dog
often will hork up the yellowish, foamyish bile, with or without
bones. Sometimes they hork up BBV because raw digests faster than
kibble, the tummy is empty, so it must be time to eat. NP for the dog,
he''s gotten rid of the irritation. He may react as if he feels bad,
just because you are upset that he did it on your new comforter, or on
the white carpet.

11. A lot of dogs don't drink as much water or as frequently when
switched to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content
and most dogs are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to
compensate in order for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw,
you don't need to coax your dog to drink more water or even broth,
just offer plenty of fresh water, he'll drink when he needs it.

12. True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is
frequent, liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot 'hold
back'. True diarrhea, imo, is caused by disease, parasites or
inappropriate food or non food items. The occasional loose poops, even
over a few days, from feeding a few too many boneless meals or
introing a new protein or feeding too much organ at one whack, is not
diarrhea.

13. The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is
served must be consumed) and 10% organs (5% of this is liver, the rest
is as much variety as you can find and afford) This is not an
immutable 'daily requirement'. Balance Over Time, over weeks and
months is one of the raw feeding mottos. ; ) If you feed true whole
prey, that is; entire animals at a time, then the meat to bone to
organ ratios are 'perfect' for that creature. Whatever parts your dog
can eat of is right for him. In the wild, wolves will eat off a large
animal carcass for days, and each wolf gets different parts. If times
are hard, they will consume the entire critter, including skin, fur,
less 'choice' parts and will even crack the hard long bones to get to
the marrow. If pickin's are plentiful, they will eat the easiest and
choice parts, and then move on. Because of variances in size, age,
personality, life experiences and dental ability, a particular dog
will be able to consume, or not: all or part or some or a little bone
from any particular animal. If you feed 'Frankenprey', that is; a
variety of protein, body parts and organs from different animals, to
simulate the whole prey experience for your dogs, you are challenged
to find enough variety in all these aspects for optimal health.

14. Organs - don't try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at
first. An easy way to satisfy the human need to "Do it all, right
now!", is to toss the gizzards and heart you get with your whole
chickens in with a bonier meal, a little piece at a meal. Heart and
gizzards are organs, but should be fed as meatymeat. The liver can be
cut up into teensy bits, and fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal.
This will allow you to feed organs, but shouldn't cause runny stools.
If it does, cut it out and freeze those parts for later down the line.
My list of organs, so I don't forget to look for variety; liver, heart
(fed as meat), cheek meat, head meat, salivary glands, feet, lips,
oxtail, spleen, tongue (usually fed as meat), weasand meat
(esophagus), tripe, stomach, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears,
kidneys, brain, tripe, poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard and
snouts. Heads, with all the ‘stuff’, including eyes.
"offal" - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by humans.

15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is "used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis."
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in 1/2 ounce
meatballs, for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with
each meal. Or, fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or
two) offer plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout
the day. Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after,
gradually increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You
will often see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of
the way it soothes the digestive system, and the dog's body will do
the same sometimes even without SEBP.

16. You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog
will eat and that won't break the bank. : ) Common grocery store
variety suffices for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish,
rabbit. Others can obtain at a reasonable price and feed; goat,
venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo, elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea
hen, quail, bear (bear? ;) ), the list goes on and on.

17. If you must supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil,
either in caps or liquid. Make sure it doesn't have any plant based
oils, like soy, in there. You probably don't need much. Follow the
recommendations that come with the product you buy:
http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

In the case of true
disease, you may need certain supps, but this is the exception to the
rule, most dogs don’t.

18. Lis' List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein,
parts and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a
free or cheap freezer to hold all the scores you'll be making!
"> Where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

A) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
B) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
C) You may be able to join a barter group.
D) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
E) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
F) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
G) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
H)If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
I) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or Google to see.
J) Try craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
K) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
L) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sam’s Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
M) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
N) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
O) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
P) A great tip I learned here a while back â€" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
Q) Farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, ‘cause they don't want to take it back with them.
R) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
S) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
T) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
U) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill. (like deer)
V) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.
W) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
X) Speak to local farmers.
Y) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats.
Z) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
AA) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lis"

It really isn't that hard to raw feed your dog. There's a learning
curve, definitely. But, that's what this list is here for.
Read as many daily posts as you can, read the files on the website,
and follow those links! Search in the archives for past posts with
keywords; new to raw, newbie, help, how do I start or other words that
reflect your specific search.
TC, and let us know how you and your dogs progress! Puppy pics would
be nice, too. : )
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Okay .. here comes my first set of concerns/questions.....please be
patient with me !!!
> All my Boerboels are used to raw food as we used to supplement
frequently, but I am unsure as to what to give them per week and in
what ratio's....
<snip>
> Lastly...(for now) when I am looking at feeding pregnant mom is
there anything different I should do in my tactics of feeding? I am
hoping that by switching over to raw I am going to be able to help
eliminate or lessen the need for C-sections due to uterine inertia..
is this even possible?
>
> Again... Thank you in advance for being so patient and polite!
>
> Sincerely,
> Marcella, Ontario

Messages in this topic (35)
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1.3. Re: New To Raw - Giselle
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:07 pm ((PDT))

Hi Giselle,

Long winded or not this is a great post! We just need to copy it and
give it to everyone who joins!

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:

But you'll have to be patient, too, as I'm
> about to be very long winded!

> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey

Messages in this topic (35)
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1.4. Re: New To Raw - Giselle
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Carol!
I created that as a 'goto' file to save what little rl I
have left!

I found myself wanting to tell more of the whole picture than just
what each newbie asked, and having to recreate the info and tailor it
each time to each new person was taking up an awful lot of time and
energy.

Now, I just have to add or delete here or there and add a preamble to
my ramblings.

Maybe I can pay attention to finishing adding content to my business
website. ; )
TYVM!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Long winded or not this is a great post! We just need to copy it and
> give it to everyone who joins!
>
> Carol, Charkee & Moli

Messages in this topic (35)
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2.1. Re: liver
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 6:30 pm ((PDT))

Kaitlin,
Have you tried feeding the little bit of liver within your dogs' meal a little frozen? My Lab wouldn't eat kidney unless I seared it then I tried feeding it a little frozen, not as much smell. So when I introduced liver, that's the only way I feed it (sometimes chicken liver, sometimes beef liver, beef kidney, all a little frozen, sometimes a lot frozen, it thaws very quickly).

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (44)
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3a. Re: Leg Quarters
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 6:30 pm ((PDT))

I can answer this one! Kinda new to raw myself - I've been feeding RAW for
a little over a month now, and it's going good for my dogs! You should be
feeding 2-3% of your Doberman body weight - (I would do the math for you but
I suck at %'s!!LOL) - or you judge by the weight your dog does or doesn't
put on. Need to gain weight-feed more - need to lose weight feed less! You
want to be feeding 80% meat, 10% organ, and 10% bone. You can also get some
whole chickens and cut them up. Stick with chicken for a week or two then
you go to another protein like pork or turkey. OH and be careful when
you're giving organs, they can cause loose stools if fed to much. Small
amounts at first. If you're getting diaherra feed more bones, if you're
getting constipation feed more meat.

Anything else, guys?
Brandi
Bartlesville, OK

On 9/3/07, bukasam <Buka888@aol.com> wrote:
>
> I am new to the Raw diet. Today we bought a package of leg quarters
> and gave one that was a little over a pound to our 12 year old 75 lb
> Doberman. She ate it up with no hesitation and nicely chewed it up and
> ate it bones and all. Could you guys please tell me approximately how
> much in lbs we should be giving her in a day?
>
> Sam
>
>
>

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (23)
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3b. Re: Leg Quarters
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:51 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/3/2007 4:30:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, Buka888@aol.com
writes:

Could you guys please tell me approximately how
much in lbs we should be giving her in a day?

Sam,

for a normally active healthy dog at 75 lbs you should START with 1.5 - 2 lbs
of meat and adjust as you find out how your dog does on that amount. If he
loses weight, increase the amount you're feeding, if he gains, cut back a
little..

the starting guideline is 2 - 3% of the dogs' ideal adult weight. If 75 lbs
is the weight she's supposed to be at.. then then amounts i gave you are where
to start.

remember that a properly fed raw prey model diet will result in a leaner
mass, she'll stop being bloated and poofy, and her belly will firm up and she'll
develop a more defined waist.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (23)
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4a. Re: 1st time feeding raw _more info needed
Posted by: "hd_peterson" hd_peterson@yahoo.com hd_peterson
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 6:31 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hd_peterson" <hd_peterson@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tottime47" <tottime@> wrote:
> >Thank you for all of the information. I will try again tomorrow
with
> all of your ideas and let you know how it goes.
>
> Heidi
>
Just wanted to let you know that I bought a chicken breast and chicken
thighs. I seared them, cut them into smaller pieces and put parmesan
cheese on top. He ate all of it. Still not completely raw, but it is
a great start. Thank you everyone for your wonderful suggestions.

Heidi

Messages in this topic (10)
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4b. Re: 1st time feeding raw _more info needed
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:01 pm ((PDT))

Way to go Heidi! Just don't give up and I'm sure he's going to be
enjoying his meals right along with the rest sooner than you think!

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hd_peterson" <hd_peterson@...>
wrote:

> Just wanted to let you know that I bought a chicken breast and
chicken
> thighs. I seared them, cut them into smaller pieces and put parmesan
> cheese on top. He ate all of it. Still not completely raw, but it
is
> a great start. Thank you everyone for your wonderful suggestions.
>
> Heidi
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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5a. Well, I've got a leaver and a burier...
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 6:32 pm ((PDT))

I've been on the raw diet with my two girls for a week now, and they
are loving their chickens, as well as the pork neck snack I gave them
yesterday. They are doing great - little poops, same energy level.
Everything seems to be going great.

The only concern I have at the moment is that when I feed them whole
chickens, my lab (Lucy) will eat what she wants and then just leave
the rest, and I can pick it up, rinse it off and stick it in the
fridge. The pit bull (Scarlet) will bury what she doesn't eat, and
then sit out there and guard the spot. I have heard from a few
others on this post that some dogs will do that, and that is fine.
Is there anything I should be doing other than just leaving it out
there under a mound of dirt? I never saw Scarlet eat the last one
she buried, but I saw the hole where it once was, so I assumed
somebody ate it. I just don't know which dog it was, because they
stay outside in the backyard all day while we're at work.

Scarlet doesn't seem hungry or undernourished in any way, so it is
likely it is her eating it (she eats slightly less than the lab); she
just prefers to spread out her eating times. Do you think it is bad
for me to leave them outside unattended with that buried food out
there? Scarlet is protective of it, but Lucy won't even try to
challenge her (she is VERY submissive to Scarlet), so I don't think
that will ever be an issue.

Any advice from those with experience feeding multiple dogs with
different eating habits are encouraged to respond! :) And to those
who are about to respond that I should dig up the chicken, I tried to
find it this morning, but I couldn't! She's a good hider!

-Steph
Scarlet (I likes to bury my food)
Lucy (I just likes to eat it)
Minkey (I'm the cat - still eating ki**le at the moment. Blech!!)

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Well, I've got a leaver and a burier...
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 7:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Steph!
Well, I don't feed outside, for my convenience' sake. I want
to watch my dog's eating, so if that one-in-a-million accident
happens, I'm there to deal with it. I also prefer that they eat inside
because of foul weather, you know, the annoying stuff; rain, snow,
sleet, hail, hurricanes. ; ). And there's the possibility of
attracting 'critters' to your yard; of the winged, four or six legged
varieties.
I also don't like to leave dogs to their own devices, even if I think
they won't bother each other when eating.
Guarding behavior is natural, but not appropriate in a human environment.
I'd take the teaching opportunity that your guarding dog provides by
teaching her "Give" - trade her for her 'leftovers' for something so
yummy that she can't resist it. I'd first put the other dog in her own
crate or in another room. Then, lure your guarding dog away from her
'leftovers', by making a Hansel and Gretel" trail, if necessary. Put
her in her crate with a yummy chewie or stuffed Kong, and pick up the
leftover meal and put it away. Eventually you will be able to trade
her her leftover meal for a small yummy treat on the cue "Give", or
"Trade".

If your guarding dog wants to eat smaller meals more frequently, just
pop her or the other dog in their crate(s) and offer another meal.

I'm not worried about my dogs getting sick from eating 'aged' meat, or
getting 'cooties' from the dirt 'n stuff. But I do want to teach my
dogs appropriate behavior and head off any incipient problems before
they can develop. Part of having dogs is thinking ahead and managing
their behavior and acting to pro actively to teach them how to get
along in a human environment.
'Sides, how can you enjoy your dog if she's outside guarding her
cache? : )
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
> The only concern I have at the moment is that when I feed them whole
> chickens, my lab (Lucy) will eat what she wants and then just leave
> the rest, and I can pick it up, rinse it off and stick it in the
> fridge. The pit bull (Scarlet) will bury what she doesn't eat, and
> then sit out there and guard the spot. I have heard from a few
> others on this post that some dogs will do that, and that is fine.
> Is there anything I should be doing other than just leaving it out
> there under a mound of dirt? I never saw Scarlet eat the last one
> she buried, but I saw the hole where it once was, so I assumed
> somebody ate it. I just don't know which dog it was, because they
> stay outside in the backyard all day while we're at work.
<snip>
> Any advice from those with experience feeding multiple dogs with
> different eating habits are encouraged to respond! :) And to those
> who are about to respond that I should dig up the chicken, I tried to
> find it this morning, but I couldn't! She's a good hider!
>
> -Steph
> Scarlet (I likes to bury my food)
> Lucy (I just likes to eat it)
> Minkey (I'm the cat - still eating ki**le at the moment. Blech!!)
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: What is your opinion on this?
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 6:33 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Ewww, Chris, the more you talk about it the more it grosses me out!
Cori

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "coriowen" <COwen98@> wrote:
> > The info. I got on the "satin ball", now that is NASTY, but I can
see
> > this woman doing something like that for her dogs, she is a bit
on
> > the, how shall I say this?..."trashy side".
> *****
> Now now.
> I know many fine upstanding members of both the dog fancy and the
> community at large who believe Satin Balls are exotic and magical
> food. Think about it: if you are a breeder feeding BilJac or
ProPlan
> or any of the other brands that underwrite breeders and you stumble
> upon a recipe for "real food" that puts needed show weight on your
> dogs, wouldn't you be pleezed as punch? I mean, pretend you don't
know
> squat about species appropriate diets.
>
> Satin Balls are trash food not because the breeder is suspect, but
> because the ingredients are unhealthy. Like Twinkies are trash.
Like
> deep-fried Twinkies are trash.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (14)
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6b. Re: What is your opinion on this?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:00 pm ((PDT))

Ok, I probably won't want to know after I find out, but what are these?

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:
And yes,
> she'd feed satin balls, and Mickey D's to her stud dog.
> ginny and Tomo

Messages in this topic (14)
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6c. Re: What is your opinion on this?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:31 pm ((PDT))

<snip>
> Satin Balls are an 'old time' handler's and breeder's trick to put
> weight on a show dog. They are just junk food;
>
http://www.google.com/search?q=satin+balls+recipe&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
> http://tinyurl.com/2lt3h6
> TC
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey

Messages in this topic (14)
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7a. Re: wow
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 7:56 pm ((PDT))

I hope that you make her keep her word on what she is going to "send"
you so that you can tell us the propaganda she uses to scare people
from raw! I haven't been feeding raw for very long but I can't believe
that I have just started, it makes all the sense in the world. We
raise Quarter Horses and we do not feed grains-Believe me, the same
crap goes on over there too with Purina and the rest trying to tell us
that our's is better than their's blah, blah, blah when what you have
to do is think about what the Mustangs eat and survive on-Good
grasses! We feed alfalfa and our great pastures-pretty simple and our
horses look great. We have 18-20 head of all different ages so I see
them go from new-borns to old ones and they are very healthy. Knock
wood, we have not had a major colic in years.
If we can just look at what mother nature meant for ALL animals to eat
it's not that difficult to follow......
Cori

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "brutus_buckley"
<brutus_buckley@...> wrote:
>
> I know Tara!! I was wondering if she gave the same speech to those
with
> poop-eaters. My bet is no. I am anxious to see what is recommended
> instead...odds are it is something sold in their lobby.
>
> -Renee W.
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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8a. performance dogs
Posted by: "Linda Gower" pudeltime@bellsouth.net pudeltime
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 7:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi all,

We are in week four of raw diet and the boys are doing great. My smallest - 15# mini poodle - will be starting the fall agility season next weekend. Anyone actively show in agility? Anything I should change during his high activity months? I know I should just watch body condition for amounts, but anything else I should change.

Here is a typical week so far. Chicken quarters are the staple with him getting thigh/back sections with the organs intact. Addtional items are pork roast chunks, venison chunks, ground beef, ground turkey, stew meat, bits of liver that I can sneak in (neither boy likes liver -having to find ways to sneak it in). I am assuming adding the higher fat meats might be the way to go to add more calories.

My traveling companion also feeds raw (of a differing type, but raw nonetheless) so that part is a bit easier, we always look for rooms with refrigerators.

Any guidance appreciated.

Linda Gower - Mid-TN
Lance (SP) AX, AXJ, Delta Pet Partner
Chase (MP) OA, AXJ
in memory of Cocoa (70-88), Duncan, UD, NA, NAJ, TDI. (89-04)
and Bonzai, CDX, MX, MXJ, HIC, Delta Pet Partner (97-04)
Cherish every run. RUN FOR FUN!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: performance dogs
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:15 pm ((PDT))

Malo is currently in training for competetion and Kiska is learning the
ropes....

Depending on how many classes you do... I don't generally change anything
with mine... if I find he starts to pack the pounds in the wrong direction
either wya I add or decrease... typically the day of I like to feed
something like Deer, moose... some sort of wild meat.... as I find it seems
to give more energy. True or not... I'm not sure... but it's what I do. I've
been told deer is more rich.

Kaitlin Fraser
Prince SJA therapy dog, CGN
Jester SJA therapy dog CGN
Wenlisa's Command Performance HIC, CKC PTd "Malo" A work of art in
progress.( Raw Fed, )
Sheep's Kin Unusually Unusaul Kiska- Another work of art in even more
progress.( Raw fed)

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

>From: "Linda Gower" <pudeltime@bellsouth.net>
>Reply-To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>To: <rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [rawfeeding] performance dogs
>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 20:30:16 -0500
>
>Hi all,
>
>We are in week four of raw diet and the boys are doing great. My smallest -
>15# mini poodle - will be starting the fall agility season next weekend.
>Anyone actively show in agility? Anything I should change during his high
>activity months? I know I should just watch body condition for amounts, but
>anything else I should change.
>
>Here is a typical week so far. Chicken quarters are the staple with him
>getting thigh/back sections with the organs intact. Addtional items are
>pork roast chunks, venison chunks, ground beef, ground turkey, stew meat,
>bits of liver that I can sneak in (neither boy likes liver -having to find
>ways to sneak it in). I am assuming adding the higher fat meats might be
>the way to go to add more calories.
>
>My traveling companion also feeds raw (of a differing type, but raw
>nonetheless) so that part is a bit easier, we always look for rooms with
>refrigerators.
>
>Any guidance appreciated.
>
>Linda Gower - Mid-TN
>Lance (SP) AX, AXJ, Delta Pet Partner
>Chase (MP) OA, AXJ
>in memory of Cocoa (70-88), Duncan, UD, NA, NAJ, TDI. (89-04)
>and Bonzai, CDX, MX, MXJ, HIC, Delta Pet Partner (97-04)
>Cherish every run. RUN FOR FUN!
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________
See Fireworks On Live Image Search

http://search.live.com/images/results.aspx?q=Fireworks&mkt=en-ca&FORM=SERNEP

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: Fat ratios, & the fat around beef kidneys
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:10 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/3/2007 9:26:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
"sarahfalkner" writes:

so many different cuts to choose from, some of them quite lean and some of
them well-marbled. Is this also time just to think "vary, and it will balance
over time"?

****
I think so. I feed a good bit of beef heart from a farmer's market, thinking
it's the best source of taurine anywhere. I try to cut it up so I'm giving
some fat and more lean, if I can, but I haven't made a big deal out of it and
none of my cats have had the runs from it. Sometimes I feed just the heart,
sometimes heart with something bony like a piece of a wing. I feed a whole lot
less kidney, since it's an organ, but have never thrown away the fat part.

BTW--tonight I stuck a small piece of a heart I was cutting up into the
microwave and sampled it. It's quite tasty, with an interesting texture. Heart
has not been on my menu, except that when I was a kid, at hog killing time my
grannie would make up stew sort of thing from "liver and lights" and heart,
plus veggies, that I remember as WONDERFUL! But I may have to steal some more of
this heart from my cats. :)

Lynda

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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10a. Re: Help! Sick pup
Posted by: "Monica" mommyof2gals@comcast.net mommyof2gals
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:10 pm ((PDT))

Hi. Glad I could help or at least give encouragement!

Loki has not real restrictions. He still eats chicken, turkey, pork (ribs
and neck bones with a *little* added meat), beef, veal, lamb, goose (very
little!), organ/heart/gizzard etc. His biggest culprit was actually the
chicken skin, not pork at all. He's always been a little more sensitive meat
wise though - he needs bone at every feeding or he gets the runs. My other
dog (same breed) can have a whole meat-only meal and be fine.

The key for us was to start back at the beginning. Only chicken quarters,
skinned, for about a month. And then SLOWLY add in other meats/organs etc.
to see what caused a problem. Loki makes it easy to tell - he stands funny,
a very straight back as if he were sucking his belly in but not quite
arching his belly. His head is in line with his body instead of raised
above his shoulders. Right there, when I see that, I make a note of what
he's eaten in the last 48 hours and decrease it the next time or see what I
can do to make it less fatty if possible.

It can be as simple as an organ mixed with a fattier meat like pork or beef
(I now feed organs as their own meal once a week with a pork, lamb or veal
neck bone to avoid the runs). Or beef/pork/veal back to back can be
upsetting to his tummy. I usually feed two days of chicken quarters for
every day of "other" meat (besides turkey - I'll sub chicken for that).

Literally, keep a log and watch your dog. If you go slowly and with intent
to avoid too much fat, you shouldn't get to a critical point again. But if
you see he is starting to vomit, withhold food for 48 hrs (they say water
too but I did not as that would require a vet trip) and it should ward off
the worst of it and let the pancreas readjust. After the 48 hrs we fed a bit
of raw chicken breast (skinned) with some canned pumpkin to hold off the
runs for two days (fed several times a day instead one or two full meals) to
get him back and ready to eat normally.

Hope that helps point you in the right direction.

Monica in IL

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
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11a. Re: feeding mostly chicken
Posted by: "Sue" fordogs@ptd.net agiledogs2000
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:10 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Melinda" <mjensen@...> wrote:

> Hi Sue,
>
> Before my male was neutered which in turn cleared up his prostate
issue, he did best on
> chicken, rabbit, lamb and green tripe. Just about anything else
would cause a major
> digestive upset.
>
> So, unless you can find a similar solution to his medical
condition, you might have to stay
> clear of proteins like beef, pork and turkey if he's not tolerating
them well.
>
> Try to find as much variety as you can, but if something has caused
a problem in the past,
> better to just not feed it.
>
> I also fed three meals a day; less mass pushing by that poor
prostate, and sometimes bone
> ground in meals, such as whole rabbit including fur, when he was
extra sensitive.
>
> Melinda

>Hi Melinda,
Thanks for your response to my problem. Gnat has been neutered for
about 4 1/2 yrs now but apparently his prostate never shrank. His
straining to poop didn't just start with the raw, he did it even more
so when he ate kibble. But I'm relieved to hear that he's not the
only one that can't seem to adjust to a variety of proteins. I was
feeding him chicken with some pork and as long as it was really small
pieces he seemed somewhat ok. I tried staying with pork this week but
it was a butt washing week and I feel really bad for him and my
husband is starting to make noise about switching him back to bag
food. So I think like you, I will stick with mainly chicken and very
small amounts of other meats. I also read that chicken is approx.
27% bone which concerns me, however, even when he was only eating
chicken quarters he never had white poop. I'm not sure what that
means except I've also read that a lot of bone would produce white
powdery stool. I also thought I might try homeopathy, if you or
anyone else knows of someone reputable that might be able to make
some suggestions, I would appreciate a name.
Thanks again
Stickin' with Chicken
Sue, Gnat & Slick

>
>

> >
>

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12a. PET CARE EXPERT CAUTIONS AGAINST RAW FOOD DIET FOR DOGS?
Posted by: "tdifr62" tdifraia@comcast.net tdifr62
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:11 pm ((PDT))

I have read this article and found it full of holes and undocumented
facts. Does anyone know if on of our advocates has done a rebuttal to
this? What a bag of crap. It is America and we are free to speak, even
if it is a bunch of excuse me "ca ca". Has anyone read anyone speak
out against this yet?

http://www.azmira.com/StudyRawFoodDiets.htm

Tommy D.

Messages in this topic (3)
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12b. Re: PET CARE EXPERT CAUTIONS AGAINST RAW FOOD DIET FOR DOGS?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:20 pm ((PDT))

We definitely have discussed it...don't know about a rebuttal. Do a search
in the archives on azmira and you will find quite a bit of info!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "tdifr62" <tdifraia@comcast.net>

I have read this article and found it full of holes and undocumented
facts. Does anyone know if on of our advocates has done a rebuttal to
this? What a bag of crap. It is America and we are free to speak, even
if it is a bunch of excuse me "ca ca". Has anyone read anyone speak
out against this yet?

http://www.azmira.com/StudyRawFoodDiets.htm

Messages in this topic (3)
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12c. Re: PET CARE EXPERT CAUTIONS AGAINST RAW FOOD DIET FOR DOGS?
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:49 pm ((PDT))

Tommy,
This study is probably what most vets use to scare people out of going
RAW not semi-raw or BARF but Prey Model Specific Raw Diet, huge
difference. I wish a study would be done that way and not for a
freaking year but for a 7 year or 10 year period and then see what the
results are. Or heck, for the life of the dogs/cats. You'd start with
freshly weaned pups/kittens and follow them step by step with only
puppy/kitten vacs and no vacs after one year of age. I'll bet the
kibble companies would be scared to death! hehehe
I am doing my own study with my almost year old Dachshund since she is
my youngest and I will definitely get to see what the TRUE results are
going to be. I can't wait for the weeks to turn into months and months
to turn into years so I can know that my girls are healthy and happy
without being poisoned by kibble and vacs. I know better, I do better!
=)
Cori

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tdifr62" <tdifraia@...> wrote:
>
> I have read this article and found it full of holes and undocumented
> facts. Does anyone know if on of our advocates has done a rebuttal to
> this? What a bag of crap. It is America and we are free to speak, even
> if it is a bunch of excuse me "ca ca". Has anyone read anyone speak
> out against this yet?
>
>
> http://www.azmira.com/StudyRawFoodDiets.htm
>
> Tommy D.
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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13a. Re: Are Emu bones too hard to feed.??
Posted by: "doris_russel" DRus724971@aol.com doris_russel
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:13 pm ((PDT))

Thankyou Chris, for your response. BTW, I didn't pay for these they
were free, along with tons of offal, a few turkeys, etc. The bones
have some meat on them, but I don't want to give them as a meal, more
so as a pastime. Now I give him pork shoulder bones,after his meaty
meal, which he goes through pretty quickly. He still needs to chew
as he has put a nice dent on my chairs etc. I tried feeding large but
it doesn't satisfy his chewing needs. Any suggestions as to what
type of bone for recreational purposes, that would last at least a
few days. Doris

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "doris_russel" <DRus724971@> wrote:
> Recently I acquired some emu rib
> > cages and emu leg bones, my question is are these okay to feed as
> > recreational bones or are the leg bones too hard. I don't want
his
> > teeth to break.
> *****
> IMO these bones without plenty of meat on them are not a
particularly
> savvy investment of doggiedollars and may well be dense/old enough
to
> endanger teeth. If on the other hand they are splendidly meaty--
> paragons of meaty body parts, veritable treasure troves of meat--
then
> the bones are fine for your Rottie to eat if only to strip off all
that
> lovely meat.
>
> Be my guess the bones you got are essentially bare: I personally
would
> not feed them.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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14a. Re: greetings and long post sorry.
Posted by: "T. S." JoeTheLion1@yahoo.com joethelion1
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:47 pm ((PDT))

hi lynne,

thanks for the information. and that came out wrong for me i hadn't
meant to combine raw/cooked what i had meant is that i am looking into
both raw and cooked as alternative food sources. either or, but not
together.

i'll continue to do research on both and see how i feel overall. the
reason i mentioned vitamins and such is because i've read online in
varying sites how people are adding vitamins and such stuff to their
dogs diets and i was thinking that was the norm.

i do understand that even with us (the two legged animals) eating raw
is better and if eaten properly we get a better and richer supply of
vitamins and nutrients directly from the foods so in essense the same
holds true for our four legged friends also. makes sense.

once more thanks for all the info. in your post.

t.s.
ensenada, mexico

Messages in this topic (3)
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