[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12000

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Who raises their own beef, goats and/or chicken?
From: coriowen
1b. Re: Who raises their own beef, goats and/or chicken?
From: Giselle

2.1. Re: new member
From: Laura Atkinson
2.2. Re: new member
From: Bj
2.3. Re: new member
From: Giselle

3a. Thank you!
From: melanieabrams
3b. Re: Thank you!
From: Giselle
3c. Re: Thank you!
From: melanieabrams

4a. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
From: Laurie Swanson
4b. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
From: Jen S
4c. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
From: Laura Atkinson

5a. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
From: Denise Strother
5b. Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
From: Shannon Parker

6a. Re: greetings and long post sorry.
From: linoleum5017

7a. Re: questions from newbie
From: linoleum5017
7b. Re: questions from newbie
From: Giselle

8a. Re: Trimming...
From: Laura Atkinson
8b. Re: Trimming...
From: Morledzep@aol.com
8c. Re: Trimming...
From: Sandee Lee

9a. Re: San Diego Resources?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

10. Please help, My dog is constipated
From: beckie716

11. Color change in coat
From: marieandthefuzzybunch

12a. Re: New to the concept of raw.....
From: linoleum5017

13a. Re: Goop in eyes
From: Brandi Bryant

14. emu, ostrich ribs
From: Bj

Messages
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1a. Who raises their own beef, goats and/or chicken?
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:30 pm ((PDT))

We live on a horse ranch and with 4 dogs one of which is a giant breed,
my husband and I were wondering if we should get a few head of cattle
or some chickens? We would have to build a pretty sturdy chicken coup
because the coyotes are THICK out here.
Anyway, does anyone on here raise there own beef or chicken? If so,
would it be worth our time? We definitely have the room to run some
cattle. We actually lease some of our land out to run cattle, not ours
but some friends'.
Cori

Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: Who raises their own beef, goats and/or chicken?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Cori!
I don't raise anything, no room for big critters, only have a
little over an acre.
But, I did come across this site today:
http://home.centurytel.net/thecitychicken/
and went, hmmmm.....
great ideas for creative and movable chicken coops called tractors,
for 'free range' effect without leaving them open to predation. (read:
Bea and the hawks would eat them)
I even went so far as to look up a Yahoo! chicken group;
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/dom_bird/?m=0

Let me know what you think, what you decide to do, how it goes. You
know, everything!
TC
Giselle

> We live on a horse ranch and with 4 dogs one of which is a giant breed,
> my husband and I were wondering if we should get a few head of cattle
> or some chickens? <snip>
> Cori

Messages in this topic (2)
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2.1. Re: new member
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:30 pm ((PDT))

Good lord, we should clean this up and add it to the welcome files :-) Good
job!

On 9/4/07, Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Linda!
> Welcome!
> It seems that we are seeing as many people coming from feeding other
> types of 'raw diets' wanting to learn to feed the species appropriate
> whole raw prey model way, as people who are now afraid to feed
> commercial cr*p-in-a-bag. Glad to have ya!
> Even though you are not as new to prey model raw as people who have
> been feeding kibble, I'll post my usual spiel and you can pick out the
> bits that you need and are new to you;

<massive snippage to avoid moderator attention>
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
> Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (66)
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2.2. Re: new member
Posted by: "Bj" seawindbullies@yahoo.com seawindbullies
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:30 pm ((PDT))

Hello,
In what way has it been detrimental to your breeding program? More c-
sections required? I was at a seminar once which indicated that when
bitches are fed large amounts of calcium that happens. . . so the
high percentage of bone that some BARF recommends seem to be
problematic.
Or was your problems along some other lines? I'm very interested to
know since I also have show dogs. Thank you.
Bj

> We breed and show Boxers and have seen a vast improvement in thier
health and life expectancy. I have discovered however that the raw
diet I was following has been detremental to our breeding program.
> So any breeders out there - I'd love any help and ideas to help us
produce healthy puppies born naturally.
> We don't vaccinate and use homeopathic treatments when they aren't
well.
> Linda Norris
> rodlinkennels
> www.rodlinboxers.com
>

Messages in this topic (66)
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2.3. Re: new member
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 9:02 pm ((PDT))

TYVM, Laura!
TC
G

> Good lord, we should clean this up and add it to the welcome files
:-) Good
> job!

Messages in this topic (66)
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3a. Thank you!
Posted by: "melanieabrams" melanieabrams@yahoo.com melanieabrams
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:30 pm ((PDT))

I've been lurking for weeks now - wanting to jump in to feeding raw
but feeling overwhelmed - but with the encouragement of Giselle's
fabulous post for beginners, I went out and bought a big organic whole
chicken today, cut it into 5 servings (trying to be mindful of keeping
the servings balanced with the proper organ, bone, meat percentages),
and feed my 70 pound mutt (English Setter? Australian Shepard?
Dingo?)Clio her first raw meal. And she LOVED it. Ate every morsel
with gusto. Normally she leaves her kibble until she must be hungry
enough to eat...well...kibble, but tonight she had a field day with
her chicken meal. So thank you Giselle! And thank you to everyone
else for such great advice and encouragement.

Melanie in Berkeley, CA

Messages in this topic (7)
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3b. Re: Thank you!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:47 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Melanie!
YQW!
That's what I live for, to push people over the edge. l0lz ^_^

Look out for loose poops tonight or tomorrow, eating that much raw for
the first meal might make for cannon butt.

If a whole chicken is the ideal daily portion for her, I'd be inclined
to halve it, and feed two meals a day for a few days.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I've been lurking for weeks now - wanting to jump in to feeding raw
> but feeling overwhelmed
<snip>
So thank you Giselle! And thank you to everyone
> else for such great advice and encouragement.
>
> Melanie in Berkeley, CA

Messages in this topic (7)
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3c. Re: Thank you!
Posted by: "melanieabrams" melanieabrams@yahoo.com melanieabrams
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 10:44 pm ((PDT))

> If a whole chicken is the ideal daily portion for her, I'd be
inclined to halve it, and feed two meals a day for a few days.

Actually, I cut the whole chicken into 5 days worth of servings and
gave her 1 serving (ie: tonight was 1/5 of a chicken) - sorry, my
confusing post :) Do you still think I should do two meals a day? Or
maybe judge by her "output" tomorrow? Thx!

Melanie

Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:30 pm ((PDT))

Thanks, everyone--I thought of the fast-growth aspect, but wasn't sure
that would mean they'd eat quite THAT much, but I think it does make
sense. They are becoming full-grown in a year or 2, while humans take
about 20! It's still kind of hard for me to grasp such a little thing
eating as much as a full-grown adult, but I guess that's how it works!

I appreciate the responses.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (8)
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4b. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
Posted by: "Jen S" jennilist@gmail.com bowiegirl1979
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:34 pm ((PDT))

My puppy is approximately 6 months (I got him from a shelter and don't
know his exact age, but the vet thinks 6 months because he already has
his canines, which she said are 6 months teeth.) Is it ok if I feed
2-3% of his current weight now? I have no idea how big he's going to
get. He's currently 45 pounds, and the vet doesn't think he's going
to get too much bigger. I'm taking a completely wild guess to say
he'll be about 50-60 pounds, maybe. Thanks!

Jen

On 9/4/07, bluegracepwd <janea@tpg.com.au> wrote:
> Hi Laurie,
>
> Puppies are growing, adult dogs are in "maintenance mode" when it
> comes to growing.
>
> To grow requires significant intake of food, so that's why pups need
> so much.
>
> I never ever measure the amount of food I'm giving my dogs or pups.
> Pups get to each as much as they like, and I've never had one over eat
> yet.
>
> cheers
>
> Jane
> www.bluegrace.com
>
>
>
>
> All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are
treated. -Mahatma Gandhi

Messages in this topic (8)
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4c. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 9:22 pm ((PDT))

I'd round to about a lb a day and add or subtract as needed. It's hard to
decide when you don't know details, but unless he's some mutant giant dog
breed (Great Dane, etc) a lb is as good a place to start as any, and add or
subtract if he gets chubby or too lean.

On 9/4/07, Jen S <jennilist@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My puppy is approximately 6 months (I got him from a shelter and don't
> know his exact age, but the vet thinks 6 months because he already has
> his canines, which she said are 6 months teeth.) Is it ok if I feed
> 2-3% of his current weight now? I have no idea how big he's going to
> get. He's currently 45 pounds, and the vet doesn't think he's going
> to get too much bigger. I'm taking a completely wild guess to say
> he'll be about 50-60 pounds, maybe. Thanks!
>
> Jen

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:32 pm ((PDT))

However, undeveloped immune systems make puppies more susceptible.
Further, stressors such as new owners, travel, weather changes, and
unsanitary conditions are believed to activate infections in
susceptible animals.

******Notice they don't include inappropriate food or vaccines as
stressors. Denise

Messages in this topic (6)
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5b. Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:32 pm ((PDT))

Hi Cortney,

Why don't you go back and tell your vet that dogs on Kibble get it as well...my dog had it twice...long before I ever switched her to raw! Stupid vet!

Shannon

Cortney <cmesthetician@msn.com> wrote:
My
vet said she wanted to do some research to see if her diet could have
caused it and called me back saying its linked. I was online for 45
minutes that night looking for a link between the two with no
results!!! But I have come up with how I think she got it. Our
neighbor has a chicken coop right next to our back fence. I have a
feeling she probably got it either eating poop that may have came
through or walking on it then cleaning her feet. Has anyone EVER heard
of coccidia being realated to a raw diet? I think its ridiculous!!!
Another thing...Since she's been on Albon for the parasite her coat
looks AWFUL! Not only has it lost pigment and look grey in many
sections but she's shedding very very badly. Any ideas on food or
supplements to help her coat recover?
Thanks guys!
-Cortney

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Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Re: greetings and long post sorry.
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:32 pm ((PDT))

T.S.,

Good for you - I always think a reasoned review of the facts will
reveal what's what. That's why I rawfeed now. Prey model. Keep on
reading, and seek for yourself some 'rawfed' animals in the flesh,
which speak 'volumes.' I am glad for this website, also, as the
people here have experience for the normal day-to-day logistics, and
also for the infrequent exceptional cases. Very helpful.

Lynne

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T. S." <JoeTheLion1@...> wrote:
>
> hi lynne,
>
> thanks for the information. and that came out wrong for me i hadn't
> meant to combine raw/cooked what i had meant is that i am looking
into
> both raw and cooked as alternative food sources. either or, but not
> together.
>
> i'll continue to do research on both and see how i feel overall.

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: questions from newbie
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:34 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ekayke" <ekayke@...> wrote:
>
> The Dude, won't touch the meaty bones (I've tried wings and
backs), and will only unenthusiastically eat the muscle/organ/pulped
veggie mix. (He literally jumps three feet off the ground when I
pull out the kibble-- Nature's Variety Prairie.)

***
I'm thinking I'd jump for a Big Mac or a Whopper over healthy food,
as well. Like fast food, ki***e is made to smell enticing, taste
wonderful, but it is devoid of many nutritional components a
carnivore requires. And it is all processed. Why feed fast-fake-
food when the real thing is so much better for them? Don't fake
your dog out!

>But he loves and devours beef knuckle bones. Should I just not feed
him chicken bones and stick to beef and other larger bones?

***
On the contrary, you should just not feed him knuckle bones. They
wear down your dogs' teeth. More natural, the bones in smaller
prey, the kind your dogs might have naturally caught on their own,
are just right for their teeth. Weight-bearing bones of large
animals aren't so good. As pack-critters, they might take down a
larger animal, but then they're gorging on huge amounts of meat....
not huge amounts of bones. Big bones are for buzzards, eh?

I'm thinking a few weeks reading the posts on this website will help
tremendously. Take rawfeeding slowly, and read ravenously. Hunger
for what's best!

Lynne

>

Messages in this topic (7)
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7b. Re: questions from newbie
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 9:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Kay!
Welcome!
I'm not sure where you got the raw diet "recipes" that you are using,
but this list supports the species appropriate whole raw prey model.
No grains, no veggies, no supps, no w'rec'k bones, no grinding, no
pulping. Just a variety of meat, edible bone and organs.
my recommendations;
1. You want to start with 2-3% of your dog's ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT
weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less
if your dog gets 'fluffy' over the space of a few weeks. You might
start out by weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps
don't continue once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding
raw. Tiny, toy, pregnant, puppies or very active dogs might need as
much as 4-5% or more - very large, giant, overweight or couch potato
dogs might need less than 2% to maintain.

2. Ditch the kibble â€" there’s been plenty of discussion on this list
about why kibble and raw don't mix; just let it suffice that your dog
can reap the benefits of raw faster and more completely if you donate
the kibble to your local shelter asap. A species appropriate raw whole
prey model diet doesn't include kibble. A species appropriate raw
whole prey model diet doesn't include kibble. Or veggies, grains or
tons of
supps. Or, for the most part, ground meats. No need for w’rec’k bones
either.

3. Feed at least 2 meals a day to start with. (three meals for a pup
under 6 months old) Feeding once a day (or even less often) can be a
great feeding plan for a dog, but not at first; too much new food at a
meal can cause digestive upset. Feed as large a portion as you can for
the size of the meal. No little pieces or cut up, ‘bite sized’ chucks.
Dogs need to tear into their food and shear hunks off to swallow and
crunch bone for physical, mental and dental health. They don’t chew or
eat the way we do, their digestion begins in their stomachs, not in
their mouths. So swallowing big hunks of meat and bone is fine. If it
fits, its OK. If it isn’t happy in the stomach, the dog will hork it
up, and re eat it, so it will go down and stay down the 2nd or 3rd
time. All good, that’s the way dogs are.

4. Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive
upset, too.

5. Stay with one new protein for at least a week, maybe two. You want
the dog to be showing you he is well adjusted to the new protein
before adding in new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new protein
every week or two.

6. You can switch to a new protein by just serving it at the next
meal, and all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a
bite or two of the new protein in with the 'old' protein, gradually
adding more new and less 'old' over several days, until you are
feeding all new and no 'old'. Whatever works for your own dog.

7. Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
amount of bone in a newbie dog's meal will tend to firm things up.
There will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less
goes to waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason.
Bone adds bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (don't go
overboard!) bone at each meal at first.

8. Chicken is recommended as the first protein to be introduced for
several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, easy to cut into different
dog meal sized portions, you can trim visible fat and skin if you need
to tweak, most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland. Read the labels
on the chicken before you buy; don't get any that say its enhanced
with flavoring/seasonings or salt injected. Some dogs get itchy or
vomit or get true diarrhea from enhancements. Whole chickens are the
best to start with, ime. Cut into portion sizes with kitchen shears,
as needed.

9. Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much
bone may not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it
out. NPs, its just the dog's way of saying "Too much right now, thanks."

10. Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bile Vomits (BV or BBV)
when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating
have been changed. When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric 'juices'
become much more acid, to better digest the raw meat and bone. If he's
expecting a meal at a certain time, the 'juices start flowing' in
anticipation of getting a meal. When the meal doesn't happen, the dog
often will hork up the yellowish, foamyish bile, with or without
bones. Sometimes they hork up BBV because raw digests faster than
kibble, the tummy is empty, so it must be time to eat. NP for the dog,
he''s gotten rid of the irritation. He may react as if he feels bad,
just because you are upset that he did it on your new comforter, or on
the white carpet.

11. A lot of dogs don't drink as much water or as frequently when
switched to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content
and most dogs are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to
compensate in order for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw,
you don't need to coax your dog to drink more water or even broth,
just offer plenty of fresh water, he'll drink when he needs it.

12. True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is
frequent, liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot 'hold
back'. True diarrhea, imo, is caused by disease, parasites or
inappropriate food or non food items. The occasional loose poops, even
over a few days, from feeding a few too many boneless meals or
introing a new protein or feeding too much organ at one whack, is not
diarrhea.

13. The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is
served must be consumed) and 10% organs (5% of this is liver, the rest
is as much variety as you can find and afford) This is not an
immutable 'daily requirement'. Balance Over Time, over weeks and
months is one of the raw feeding mottos. ; ) If you feed true whole
prey, that is; entire animals at a time, then the meat to bone to
organ ratios are 'perfect' for that creature. Whatever parts your dog
can eat of is right for him. In the wild, wolves will eat off a large
animal carcass for days, and each wolf gets different parts. If times
are hard, they will consume the entire critter, including skin, fur,
less 'choice' parts and will even crack the hard long bones to get to
the marrow. If pickin's are plentiful, they will eat the easiest and
choice parts, and then move on. Because of variances in size, age,
personality, life experiences and dental ability, a particular dog
will be able to consume, or not: all or part or some or a little bone
from any particular animal. If you feed 'Frankenprey', that is; a
variety of protein, body parts and organs from different animals, to
simulate the whole prey experience for your dogs, you are challenged
to find enough variety in all these aspects for optimal health.

14. Organs - don't try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at
first. An easy way to satisfy the human need to "Do it all, right
now!", is to toss the gizzards and heart you get with your whole
chickens in with a bonier meal, a little piece at a meal. Heart and
gizzards are organs, but should be fed as meatymeat. The liver can be
cut up into teensy bits, and fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal.
This will allow you to feed organs, but shouldn't cause runny stools.
If it does, cut it out and freeze those parts for later down the line.
My list of organs, so I don't forget to look for variety; liver, heart
(fed as meat), cheek meat, head meat, salivary glands, feet, lips,
oxtail, spleen, tongue (usually fed as meat), weasand meat
(esophagus), tripe, stomach, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears,
kidneys, brain, tripe, poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard and
snouts. Heads, with all the ‘stuff’, including eyes.
"offal" - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by
humans.

15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is "used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis."
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in 1/2 ounce
meatballs, for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with
each meal. Or, fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or
two) offer plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout
the day. Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after,
gradually increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You
will often see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of
the way it soothes the digestive system, and the dog's body will do
the same sometimes even without SEBP.

16. You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog
will eat and that won't break the bank. : ) Common grocery store
variety suffices for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish,
rabbit. Others can obtain at a reasonable price and feed; goat,
venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo, elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea
hen, quail, bear (bear? ;) ), the list goes on and on.

17. If you must supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil,
either in caps or liquid. Make sure it doesn't have any plant based
oils, like soy, in there. You probably don't need much. Follow the
recommendations that come with the product you buy:
http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

In the case of true
disease, you may need certain supps, but this is the exception to the
rule, most dogs don’t.

18. Lis' List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein,
parts and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a
free or cheap freezer to hold all the scores you'll be making!

“ Where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

A) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
B) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
C) You may be able to join a barter group.
D) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
E) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
F) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
G) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
H)If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
I) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or Google to see.
J) Try craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
K) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
L) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sam’s Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
M) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
N) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
O) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
P) A great tip I learned here a while back â€" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
Q) Farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, ‘cause they don't want to take it back with them.
R) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
S) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
T) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
U) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill. (like deer)
V) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.
W) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
X) Speak to local farmers.
Y) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats.
Z) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
AA) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lis”

It really isn't that hard to raw feed your dog. There's a learning
curve, definitely. But, that's what this list is here for.
Read as many daily posts as you can, read the files on the website,
and follow those links! Search in the archives for past posts with
keywords; new to raw, newbie, help, how do I start or other words that
reflect your specific search.
TC, and let us know how you and your dog progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I just started my dogs on raw this past week, and used chicken as the
> protein source.
<snip>
> Also, I don't think Maxine is chewing the chicken bones enough before
> swallowing them. Any advice for slowing her down?
>
> Thanks!
> Kay

Messages in this topic (7)
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8a. Re: Trimming...
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 9:11 pm ((PDT))

as one sharp eyed list member pointed out, I really meant I've seen a
DEcrease in dry skin since adding more fat :-)

On 9/4/07, Laura Atkinson <laura@kaossiberians.com> wrote:
>
> I don't trim any fat, and in fact have started feeding meals of lamb flank
> which are probably 80% fat to add more fat to their diets. I'm seeing a
> 100% increase in dry skin since adding a meal of lamb flank at least once a
> week.
>
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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8b. Re: Trimming...
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 9:34 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/4/2007 4:25:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,
krjoyner@firstam.com writes:

Do you guys trim your chicken of fat and skin? Sometimes I do and
sometimes I don't (more often). Chicken is slimy and getting that junk
off is tough work! If it's necessary I will commit myself to taking
off as much as I can but if I can get out of flinging chicken juice
all over myself and the kitchen I will. Is there a consensus on
whether or not it should be removed?

Katie,

the ONLY time it MAY be necessary to take the skin off chicken is when the
dog has worn down teeth or no teeth and can't cut it, or if your dog is new to
raw and has loose stools that are lasting more than a couple days (this is more
often user error, too much food or too much variety too soon).

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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8c. Re: Trimming...
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 9:39 pm ((PDT))

Nope...don't trim anything. It's all part of the critter...skin and fat is
important. Feed it!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "pelle567" <krjoyner@firstam.com>

Do you guys trim your chicken of fat and skin? Sometimes I do and
sometimes I don't (more often). Chicken is slimy and getting that junk
off is tough work! If it's necessary I will commit myself to taking
off as much as I can but if I can get out of flinging chicken juice
all over myself and the kitchen I will. Is there a consensus on
whether or not it should be removed?

Messages in this topic (6)
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9a. Re: San Diego Resources?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 9:29 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/4/2007 7:30:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
seawindbullies@yahoo.com writes:

Does anyone know of any good meat sources in San Diego area? Currently
I purchase quite a bit from Simon at Creston Valley and am happy with
the tripe, etc. I get from him. But am looking for other sources to
also if anyone has some suggestions would appreciate.

BJ,

try socalbarf.com, there are pick up sites in San Diego.. read the FAQ page
to find out how it works.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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10. Please help, My dog is constipated
Posted by: "beckie716" beckie716@yahoo.com beckie716
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 10:23 pm ((PDT))

This is my second round with raw feeding. So I am familiar with the
bone/meat ratio. I have only been feeding raw again for about a week.
It seems that I got 2lamb roasts with more bone than I thought. Now my
dog is really plugged up. I have been feeding only meat for a couple
of days. but she isn't eating mmuch. I have also taken to feeding her
a little liver. Tonight I couldn't get her to eat anything. So I tried
so more liver. She ate around 1/3 of a pound as long as I handed it to
her. I know, I didn't want to "hand" feed her. But I'm desperate.

How can I fix her little problem? Oh yeah, she is a great dane. 3
weeks out of surgery for bloat/gastric torsion. So, I'm quite worried.

Beckie

Messages in this topic (1)
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11. Color change in coat
Posted by: "marieandthefuzzybunch" marie@hotlinkhr.com marieandthefuzzybunch
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 10:23 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

My name is Marie and I began feeding raw about 4-6 weeks ago. We have
three poodles, Oliver (11 years - 12#), Nadia (2 yrs - 17#), and
Pataruski (2 yrs - now 17.5# and a smaller, stockier dog than Nadia.)

Pat was adopted by my daughter about two months ago. He was seriously
overweight, having been free fed on high fat leftovers almost
exclusively. He disliked kibble and was initially reluctant to eat raw.
We coaxed him with light searing. They are now three all enthusiastic
raw feeders with lots of energy, cleaner teeth, nicer breath and much
better weight(Pat especially.) This is the interesting thing that is
happening: Pat, who is a steel gray color, has developed several (6-8)
very dark, nearly black patches of fur. These are about quarter
sized. We just noticed them about a week ago. It is too early to
really say whether they are increasing. Is this just a result of
improved nutrition? I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has had a
similar experience. Thanks!

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: New to the concept of raw.....
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 10:42 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Ginger,

I also came to rawfeeding wondering how to feed my dog wisely. This
turned out to be a great place to learn w/out pressure. No one here
wants you to buy their products! Instead, we're thrilled to share
what we've discovered.

I had a great pyr (or rather he had me...) I remember at 6 or 7
months, feeding him 8 (!) cups of ki**le a day!!!!!!! You must be
buckling under that just about now. Don't worry, it doesn't last
forever. As an adult, he only needed a few cups a day. Now that
you're considering rawfeeding, remember that your pup may not
consume as much down the road as it will just now.

There is lots of food you can find on sale and in bulk. Most folks
share their bulk items w/other rawfeeders, but you may qualify to
share w/yourself! As you like.

> How would I go about feeding them raw? I've read the best way is
just to switch them cold turkey but the amounts are what I'm not
sure about.

***
I say feed what he/she will eat without getting obese. You can
reduce, if needed. This list recommends feeding 2-3% of the dog's
eventual weight (adult weight,) per day. Guess at least 100 lbs.
for your GP. See what its parents weighed.

> Once deer season kicks in good I usually have plenty of leg bones
for them. Do they need anything else like supplements?

***
If they're eating a balance of 80%meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ (5%,
or half of the 10%, should be liver,) overall, you're copying just
what God designed in nature. That means you don't have to do the
exact ratio every day, but over a week's time or so, it should
balance out to that. Since it's copying what a dog/wolf hunting
prey would receive, it turns out that no supplement of any kind is
needed. Nutrition/food in its natural state is much more absorbable
than vitamins/supplements, and is in much better ratios. Don't mess
with it!

***
One word of caution - larger animals contain weight-bearing bones
that can wear a dog's teeth down prematurely. Better to swap the
dog a piece of meat for a weight-bearing bone. People buy pigs'
feet and chicken legs for chewing satisfaction.... (can you imagine
a gum commercial in this vein? ":Double-pig feet!" or "Chicken feet
for chicken-scratch" Ok, I'll stop...)

>I know you probably get tired of answering the same questions over
and over but I've read on some sites that you ahve to feed veggies
this many times and on other sites that you don't.

***
Seems that dogs came from wolves, and when wolf stomachs were
analyzed, they didn't contain much veggie stuff, but only that which
was ingested by the prey they consumed. The conclusion derived is
that dogs do not require veggies, but they do need the animals that
eat the veggies. Make sense?

>I'm also concerned about cost as I ahve a very limited budget for
food since my dh was out of work all summer.

****
Yes, there are resources like freecycle and Craig's list (I almost
said Dean's list.... another animal entirely!) And many folk get to
know the butcher or a neighborhood hunter.... the possibilities are
endless. Giselle has a great resource idea list from Lis to
share....

Hope this all helps somehow,
Lynne

Messages in this topic (3)
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13a. Re: Goop in eyes
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 10:42 pm ((PDT))

>>>My question is my papillon now has
yellowish white goop coming out of her eyes.<<<

Before I started the RAW diet Max my older GS had goop coming out of his eye
but none of the rest of the dogs had it. But after putting all of them on
RAW they all have goop coming out of their eyes, except the puppy. She's
about 5 - 6 months old now.. I was thinking that Max had allergies, but then
all of the except of course the youngest puppy didn't have the goop in the
eyes.

Any suggestions?
Brandi
Bartlesville, OK

Messages in this topic (5)
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14. emu, ostrich ribs
Posted by: "Bj" seawindbullies@yahoo.com seawindbullies
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 10:44 pm ((PDT))

anyone feed emu and / or ostrich ribs? Are they good for the dogs. . .
I figure the leg bones would be too hard like the bones on big animals
usually are but not sure about ribs as I do let my guys have beef ribs.
Bj

Messages in this topic (1)
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