[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11999

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: questions from newbie
From: ekayke

2a. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
From: Laura Atkinson
2b. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
From: pelle567
2c. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
From: Sonja
2d. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
From: bluegracepwd

3a. Re: Please reassure me.
From: connie
3b. Re: Please reassure me.
From: Olga

4a. Re: How much to feed my Dane
From: Morledzep@aol.com
4b. Re: How much to feed my Dane
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Goop in eyes
From: hd_peterson
5b. Goop in eyes
From: hd_peterson
5c. Re: Goop in eyes
From: Giselle
5d. Re: Goop in eyes
From: coriowen

6a. Re: Long Lasting recreational bone (Re: Are Emu bones too hard to fe
From: Yasuko herron

7a. Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
From: Cortney
7b. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
From: Giselle
7c. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
From: cypressbunny
7d. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
From: Laura Atkinson

8a. Trimming...
From: pelle567
8b. Re: Trimming...
From: Giselle
8c. Re: Trimming...
From: Laura Atkinson

9a. Re: Help! Sick pup
From: Carol Wimmer

10.1. new member
From: rodlinkennels@bellnet.ca
10.2. Re: new member
From: Giselle

11. San Diego Resources?
From: Bj

Messages
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1a. Re: questions from newbie
Posted by: "ekayke" ekayke@yahoo.com ekayke
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 3:14 pm ((PDT))

So helpful! Thanks much to all of you.

Kay

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 3:20 pm ((PDT))

I don't know that the human to animal comparison works well here.

2% - 3% of their estimated adult weight, divided into however many meals a
day a puppy is going to eat works though. I don't know why, because I've
never really thought about it :-)

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
Posted by: "pelle567" krjoyner@firstam.com pelle567
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 5:21 pm ((PDT))

I think a better comparison would be growing puppies to 14 year old
boys. I once saw my little brother pour and consume in one sitting an
entire box of fruit loops using a mixing bowl and a wooden spoon.

Dogs mature far more quickly then people their entire little bodies
transform in a matter of months; they need fuel for that
metamorphosis. Imagine how much human babies would eat if they had to
go from a 6 pound new born to a 175lbs teen within 9 months.

Katie

Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 5:21 pm ((PDT))

2% - 3% of their estimated adult weight, divided into however many meals a
day a puppy is going to eat works though. I don't know why, because I've
never really thought about it :-)

>>>>I thought about it for 30 seconds and realized that a puppy does a heck of a lot more growing in the first year than a human does!

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2d. Re: amount to feed puppies--why so much?
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 5:22 pm ((PDT))

Hi Laurie,

Puppies are growing, adult dogs are in "maintenance mode" when it
comes to growing.

To grow requires significant intake of food, so that's why pups need
so much.

I never ever measure the amount of food I'm giving my dogs or pups.
Pups get to each as much as they like, and I've never had one over eat
yet.

cheers

Jane
www.bluegrace.com

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: Please reassure me.
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 3:25 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "girlndocs" <girlndocs@...> wrote:
>
>> 4 days with no end in sight. She's mixed with Rott so I'm sure she's
> capable of downing a breast quarter in a couple bites or so if she
> wanted to. And I'm sure her teeth are in good condition and she
> doesn't seem to have any ear or jaw issues. She's the model of a
> healthy active dog.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kristin
>
Hi Kristen,
I have 3 bulldogs. They started off being a bit skeptical at first. I
started with ground(bone in) and gave as treats for the first 3 or 4
days. Then I gave a chicken wing. My mini bull I have to make slice
cuts to the bone on a chicken leg or she won`t atempt to pick it up. I
can now give quarter of chickens with no problem. It`s like working up
to it. Starting small...get the appetite going with little hand fed
bits of raw them throw a glob in the dish...good luck~connie~

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Please reassure me.
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 6:16 pm ((PDT))

You should be able to cut the breast in half, the bones in there are
really soft anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem if she actually chews it.

Sounds like you've made some progress, hope Zoe is hungry enough to
keep eating!

Olga

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: How much to feed my Dane
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 3:58 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/4/2007 1:22:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
zooberthelette@yahoo.com writes:

Do you have full grown males? How much do you feed them?

Amanda,

i'm not sandee, but.. i do have a male great dane, though a juvenile, he's
just barely a year old and still looks like his 6 months old.. lol

He eats 4 - 5 lbs a day mostly in one meal a day now, but still gets two
meals a day now and then.. he's getting ready to go on the big dogs' meal every
other day schedule so i don't have to keep stuff thawed so much.. i'm getting
real tired of the smell of raw meat in my garage..

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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4b. Re: How much to feed my Dane
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 4:36 pm ((PDT))

Hi Amanda,

I do have a full grown male. Austin will be 8 in October and he weighs 146.
He averages about 3 lbs. a day. You might want to start at 3 or 3
1/2...it's really easy to adjust if you see he is not getting enough/too
much.

You are in for so much fun with this guy. Keep us posted and ask questions
any time.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Amanda Berthelette" <zooberthelette@yahoo.com>
> I saw this reply that you sent out about amounts to feed and I have a ?
for you. I am getting a Dane pup in 2 weeks he will be 9 weeks old when he
comes to us. I am having a hard time with how much to feed him. His Dad
weighs 145 pounds so I am using that as my adult weight so if I do 2% then
that is 2.8 pounds a day and if I do 3% then that is 4.3 pounds a day. That
is quite a difference. Do you have full grown males? How much do you feed
them?
> Any info would be greatly appreciated it is Great to find others feeding
the same breed as you. Thanks TTYS Amanda

Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Goop in eyes
Posted by: "hd_peterson" hd_peterson@yahoo.com hd_peterson
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 5:22 pm ((PDT))

Hello everyone,

Thank you for all of your help with starting my dogs on Raw. They are
all now eating raw and doing well. My question is my papillon now has
yellowish white goop coming out of her eyes. She is eating well and
has not other problems. Could this be from her detoxing from the old
kibble food. Has anyone else encountered this. Thank you again.

Heidi

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Goop in eyes
Posted by: "hd_peterson" hd_peterson@yahoo.com hd_peterson
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 5:22 pm ((PDT))

Hello everyone,

Thank you for helping me before. My 7 dogs are all eating raw well now
after only 3 days. My question is my 4 year old papillon is all of a
sudden having clear to yellow goop coming out of her eyes. Is this a
normal thing maybe because she is detoxing from the old food?
Otherwise she is fine. I have been giving her just chicken thighs, and
necks. Any help would be appreciated.

Heidi

Messages in this topic (4)
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5c. Re: Goop in eyes
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 7:06 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Heidi!
YQW!

I'm never sure how I feel about the whole detox concept.

I'd be looking for inhalant sensitivities; dust, grass pollen, local
house or wildfires, mold spores, new household chemicals, new
household fabrics/furniture, new environments, new personal soaps,
shampoos, lotions, sprays, etc.

http://www.wunderground.com/DisplayPollen.asp?Zipcode=08230&SafeCityName=Ocean_View&StateCode=NJ
http://tinyurl.com/3yvvok
HTH
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello everyone,
>
> Thank you for helping me before.
<snip>
My question is my 4 year old Papillon is all of a
> sudden having clear to yellow goop coming out of her eyes. Is this a
> normal thing maybe because she is detoxing from the old food?
<snip>
Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Heidi
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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5d. Re: Goop in eyes
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:29 pm ((PDT))

Heidi,
My 2 year old Dachshund and my 4 year old Doberman also have the goop
in their eyes but they it before I started to feed them a raw diet and
I thought that maybe feeding them a raw diet that they would start to
clear up, but not yet. My Dachshund had a staph infection on her chest
back in June and we put her on some antibiotics and the staph went
away, I'm not sure it went away 100% but maybe 98%, and that is when
she started to have the goop in her eyes. My Doberman has had it in
her eyes for a couple of years. One vet wanted to put her on steriods
for allergies for it but I didn't think it was necessary. I am curious
if anyone thinks that the raw diet will start to clear things up or if
we should do something proactive about it. I was thinking it might be
allergies to food and enviroment. They used to scratch a lot but don't
seem to be doing that very much anymore, thank God.
Cori

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hd_peterson" <hd_peterson@...>
wrote:
My question is my 4 year old papillon is all of a
> sudden having clear to yellow goop coming out of her eyes. Is this a
> normal thing maybe because she is detoxing from the old food?
>
>
> Heidi
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Long Lasting recreational bone (Re: Are Emu bones too hard to fe
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 5:22 pm ((PDT))

>Any suggestions as to what type of bone for recreational purposes, that would last at least >a few days. Doris

Hi,Doris.I say Cow hooves from hare today gone tomorrow in PA.

Half of cow hooves weighed 43lb(little over 2.5lb) andmy dog Corgi spent 2 hours on it last Saturday,and she was so tired!

She ate 6oz (little less than half pound).

I refreezed it andgoing to offer another time,but it looks like long lasting recreational bone.

if you like to read how she acted etc,look for thread titled gnaw-worthy bone and i put up date about how it was on Saturday feeding with title oxtail and Cow hooves under same thread.

yassy

---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "Cortney" cmesthetician@msn.com maki_chick
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 5:22 pm ((PDT))

My Chihuahua has been on raw for almost a year with GREAT results! She
no longer has yeast infections in her ears, not even a spec of dirt in
them since switching! She also no longer has problems with her anal
glands emptying themselves..she used to have to go in monthly to have
them emptied (lovely huh). So now that her stool sample turned up
positive for coccidia the vet is trying to pin it on her raw diet. My
vet said she wanted to do some research to see if her diet could have
caused it and called me back saying its linked. I was online for 45
minutes that night looking for a link between the two with no
results!!! But I have come up with how I think she got it. Our
neighbor has a chicken coop right next to our back fence. I have a
feeling she probably got it either eating poop that may have came
through or walking on it then cleaning her feet. Has anyone EVER heard
of coccidia being realated to a raw diet? I think its ridiculous!!!
Another thing...Since she's been on Albon for the parasite her coat
looks AWFUL! Not only has it lost pigment and look grey in many
sections but she's shedding very very badly. Any ideas on food or
supplements to help her coat recover?
Thanks guys!
-Cortney

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 6:59 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Cortney!
This is some of the stuff I've found out about coccidia
and Albon;
Coccidia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coccidia

Coccidia (Coccidiosis): A Cause of Diarrhea
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1622&articleid=727

What are coccidia?

Coccidia are small protozoans (one-celled organisms) that multiply in
the intestinal tracts of dogs and cats, most commonly in puppies and
kittens less than six months of age,

**** in adult animals whose immune system is suppressed, or in
animals who are stressed in other ways (e.g.; change in ownership,
other disease present). ****
**** As a puppy ages, he tends to develop a natural immunity to the
effects of coccidia. As an adult, he may carry coccidia in his
intestines, and shed the cyst in the feces, but experience no ill
effects ****

How are coccidia transmitted?

**** feces, and if the mother is shedding the infective cysts in her
feces, then the young animals will likely ingest them and coccidia
will develop within their intestines. ****

How is coccidiosis prevented or controlled?

**** Because coccidia is spread by the feces of carrier animals, it is
very important to practice strict sanitation. All fecal material
should be removed. Housing needs to be such that food and water cannot
become contaminated with feces. Clean water should be provided at all
times. Most disinfectants do not work well against coccidia;
incineration of the feces, and steam cleaning, immersion in boiling
water, or a 10% ammonia solution are the best methods to kill
coccidia. Coccidia can withstand freezing.

Cockroaches and flies can mechanically carry coccidia from one place
to another. Mice and other animals can ingest the coccidia and when
killed and eaten by a dog, for instance, can infect the dog.
Therefore, insect and rodent control is very important in preventing
coccidiosis. ****

The coccidia species of dogs and cats do not infect humans.

Coccidiosis in Chickens
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex4616

How do Birds Become Infected?

Normally, most birds pass small numbers of oocysts in their droppings
without apparent ill effects.

**** Coccidiosis becomes important as a disease when animals live, or
are reared, under conditions that permit the build-up of infective
oocysts in the environment. The intensive rearing of domestic chickens
may provide these conditions. ****

Young chickens pick up the infection from contaminated premises (soil,
houses, utensils, etc.). These premises may have been contaminated
previously by other young infected birds or by adult birds that have
recovered from the condition. Wet areas around water fountains are a
source of infection.

Oocysts remain viable in litter for many months. In this way, they can
contaminate a farm from year to year. Oocysts are killed by freezing,
extreme dryness and high temperatures.

The City Chicken
http://home.centurytel.net/thecitychicken/frequentlyasked.html

Q. "What is coccidiosis?"
A. Coccidiosis (pronounced, “cock-sid-ee-O-sis”) is a common chicken
disease. Poultry raised in crowded or unsanitary conditions
(conditions that permit the build-up of a lot of oocysts in the
environment) are at greatest risk of becoming infected. Wet areas
around water fountains are a source of infection. Oocysts remain
viable in litter for many months. In this way they can contaminate a
farm from year to year. Oocysts are killed by freezing, extreme
dryness and high temperatures. Several factors influence the severity
of infection. Some of these are: An increase in the number of oocysts
eaten causes an increase in the severity of the disease. Old birds are
generally immune as a result of prior infection. Coccidiosis generally
occurs more frequently during warmer weather (May to September). The
most easily recognized clinical sign of severe coccidiosis is the
presence of bloody droppings. Chickens droop, stop feeding, huddle
together and by the fourth day blood begins to appear in the
droppings. The greatest amount of blood appears by day five or six and
by the eighth or ninth day the bird is either dead or on the way to
recovery.
**** Keep chicks, feed and water away from droppings as much as
possible. Place water vessels on wire frames to eliminate a
concentration of wet droppings, in which the chicks can walk to pick
up or spread the disease. ****
Keep litter dry and stirred frequently. Remove wet spots and replace
with dry litter. Avoid overcrowding. If coccidiosis does break out,
start treatment immediately. Amprolium (the stuff they put in
medicated chick feed) or one of the sulpha-based drugs (such as
Sulmet, which you can get at the feed store) is usually recommended.
Follow directions on bottle to the letter

Coccidia
http://www.vetinfo4dogs.com/dogpara.html

Coccidia in dogs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coccidia

People often first encounter coccidia when they acquire a young puppy
who is infected. The infectious organisms are canine-specific and are
not contagious to humans (compare to zoonotic diseases).

Young puppies are frequently infected with coccidia and often develop
active Coccidiosis -- even puppies obtained from diligent professional
breeders. Infected puppies almost always have received the parasite
from their mother's feces. Typically, healthy adult animals shedding
the parasite's oocysts in their feces will be asymptomatic due to
their developed immune systems. However, undeveloped immune systems
make puppies more susceptible. Further, stressors such as new owners,
travel, weather changes, and unsanitary conditions are believed to
activate infections in susceptible animals.

Symptoms in young dogs are universal: at some point around 2-3 months
of age, an infected dog develops persistently loose stools. This
diarrhea procedes to stool containing liquid, thick mucus, and light
colored fecal matter. As the infection progresses, spots of blood may
become apparent in the stool, and sudden bowel movements may surprise
both dog and owner alike. Coccidia infection is so common that any pup
under 4 months old with these symptoms can almost surely be assumed to
have coccidiosis.

Fortunately, the treatment is inexpensive, extremely effective, and
routine. A veterinarian can easily diagnose the disease through
low-powered microscopic examination of an affected dog's feces, which
usually will be replete with oocysts. One of many easily administered
and inexpensive drugs will be prescribed, and, in the course of just a
few days, an infection will be eliminated or perhaps reduced to such a
level that the dog's immune system can make its own progress against
the infection. Even when an infection has progressed sufficiently that
blood is present in feces, permanent damage to the gastrointestinal
system is rare, and the dog will most likely make a complete recovery
without long-lasting negative effects.

If one dog of a litter has coccidiosis, then most certainly all dogs
at a breeder's kennels have active coccidia infections. Breeders
should be notified if a newly-acquired pup is discovered to be
infected with coccidia. Breeders can take steps to eradicate the
organism from their kennels, including applying medications in bulk to
an entire facility.

Albon
http://www.allpetsmacomb.com/drugs.html

Sulfadimethoxine/Ormetoprim An oral antiparasitic/antibiotic that is
most commonly used to
kill coccidia. Side effects are rare but can include vomiting,
diarrhea, and dry eye.

http://www.cpvh.com/Pharmacy/ph2.html
Potential Side Effects

- Albon may cause stomach upset, vomiting, diarrhea, loss of appetite,
facial swelling, excessive thirst, excessive urination.

- Other side effects may occur. If you notice anything unusual,
contact your veterinarian.

- If you are sensitive to sulfa antibiotics, handle medication carefully.

It seems that the chickens, particularly if your neighbor isn't
keeping the feces cleaned up, could be the problem. There are also
quite a few other sources possible.

The other possibility is that the coccidia that your dog was
inoculated with as a pup has been able to overgrow in his intestines
due to some circumstances your dog may be experiencing; stress, immune
suppressing health problems,etc.

One of the sites I have provided links for recommends stopping
treatment with Albon 2 days after symptoms cease. There are side
effects, as you can see from the links and quotes.

I don't see how your vet can state he wants to eradicate all the
coccidia in your dog, since virtually all dog's have it, that's not
the problem, the overgrowth, and possibly an underlying health
problem, is causing the symptoms.

A thought, perhaps the coccidia that caused your dog's symptoms were
not the ones he got from birth, but a different variety, from the
chickens or another source, and his system wasn't prepared to fight
the overgrowth?

If it were my dog, and he wasn't having symptoms anymore, I'd stop the
meds, keep him from walking through the chicken poop, talk to my
neighbor about cleaning up, reduce any other contact with possible
contaminants, feed my dog the best raw diet I could find to build up
his immune system and watch my dog closely for any developing health
problems.

I might find myself another vet, too. And NOT tell them I feed raw, if
I couldn't find one with an open mind.

HTH
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> My Chihuahua has been on raw for almost a year with GREAT results! She
> no longer has yeast infections in her ears, not even a spec of dirt in
> them since switching! She also no longer has problems with her anal
> glands emptying themselves..she used to have to go in monthly to have
> them emptied (lovely huh).
<snip>
> Another thing...Since she's been on Albon for the parasite her coat
> looks AWFUL! Not only has it lost pigment and look grey in many
> sections but she's shedding very very badly. Any ideas on food or
> supplements to help her coat recover?
> Thanks guys!
> -Cortney
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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7c. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:24 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Cortney" <cmesthetician@...> wrote:
>
>
> Has anyone EVER heard
> of coccidia being realated to a raw diet?

*** Most coccidia are species-specific, meaning dogs get dog coccidia,
not that of other species. It is unlikely that the dog could get
infected from the chickens, although it is possible that the eggs
passed through the dog unharmed and were spotted on the fecal. Did the
dog have any signs of illness, or are you treating something that
wasn't broken? Most healthy adults do not suffer in any way from this
parasite even if they are carrying it.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (4)
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7d. Re: Vet blames Raw Diet for Coccidia....any thoughts?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:26 pm ((PDT))

I think it's amazing, that if the raw diet causes coccidia, that your vet
was able to diagnose it so quickly and authoritatively...especially since he
must not see it very often in his kibble fed client population <did you
catch that sarcasm?>

Your vet is an idiot with blinders on.

On 9/4/07, Cortney <cmesthetician@msn.com> wrote:
>
> My Chihuahua has been on raw for almost a year with GREAT results! She
> no longer has yeast infections in her ears, not even a spec of dirt in
> them since switching! She also no longer has problems with her anal
> glands emptying themselves..she used to have to go in monthly to have
> them emptied (lovely huh). So now that her stool sample turned up
> positive for coccidia the vet is trying to pin it on her raw diet. My
> vet said she wanted to do some research to see if her diet could have
> caused it and called me back saying its linked. I was online for 45
> minutes that night looking for a link between the two with no
> results!!! But I have come up with how I think she got it. Our
> neighbor has a chicken coop right next to our back fence. I have a
> feeling she probably got it either eating poop that may have came
> through or walking on it then cleaning her feet. Has anyone EVER heard
> of coccidia being realated to a raw diet? I think its ridiculous!!!
> Another thing...Since she's been on Albon for the parasite her coat
> looks AWFUL! Not only has it lost pigment and look grey in many
> sections but she's shedding very very badly. Any ideas on food or
> supplements to help her coat recover?
> Thanks guys!
> -Cortney
>
>
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
> Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. Trimming...
Posted by: "pelle567" krjoyner@firstam.com pelle567
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 5:24 pm ((PDT))

Do you guys trim your chicken of fat and skin? Sometimes I do and
sometimes I don't (more often). Chicken is slimy and getting that junk
off is tough work! If it's necessary I will commit myself to taking
off as much as I can but if I can get out of flinging chicken juice
all over myself and the kitchen I will. Is there a consensus on
whether or not it should be removed?

Thank you again!
Katie

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Trimming...
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 7:19 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Katie!
Fat, skin and chicken 'juice' is good for dogs! As are other
parts, like heads 'n feets 'n hearts 'n feathers 'n gizzards 'n.....

If your dog(s) is very new to raw, and you have been trimming
severely, just trim less and less over the next few days.

If your dog(s) go over what their bowel tolerance is, you'll find out.

My consensus (committee of one, here *lol) is that if my dog doesn't
have a problem with it, its all good. In other words, if it ain't
broke, don't fix it.

Sometimes, partial or complete trimming of fat and skin temporarily is
recommended for new-to-raw dogs who are having frequent sloppy stools,
until they firm up and can adjust to eating raw.
TC
Giselle
with Bes in New Jersey

> Do you guys trim your chicken of fat and skin?
<snip>
Is there a consensus on
> whether or not it should be removed?
>
> Thank you again!
> Katie
>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: Trimming...
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:28 pm ((PDT))

I don't trim any fat, and in fact have started feeding meals of lamb flank
which are probably 80% fat to add more fat to their diets. I'm seeing a
100% increase in dry skin since adding a meal of lamb flank at least once a
week.

On 9/4/07, pelle567 <krjoyner@firstam.com> wrote:
>
> Do you guys trim your chicken of fat and skin? Sometimes I do and
> sometimes I don't (more often). Chicken is slimy and getting that junk
> off is tough work! If it's necessary I will commit myself to taking
> off as much as I can but if I can get out of flinging chicken juice
> all over myself and the kitchen I will. Is there a consensus on
> whether or not it should be removed?
>
> Thank you again!
> Katie

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Help! Sick pup
Posted by: "Carol Wimmer" my3jcs@yahoo.com my3jcs
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 5:26 pm ((PDT))

Thank you Monica for your feeding suggestions. I'll
also watch for a change in posture. This is
interesting, as the vet also asked if Rex stood or
walked funny.

Carol
Rocky,Rex,Mack

--- Monica <mommyof2gals@comcast.net> wrote:

He still eats
> chicken, turkey, pork (ribs
> and neck bones with a *little* added meat), beef,
> veal, lamb, goose (very
> little!), organ/heart/gizzard etc. Loki makes it
easy to
> tell - he stands funny,

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469

Messages in this topic (16)
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10.1. new member
Posted by: "rodlinkennels@bellnet.ca" rodlinkennels@bellnet.ca rodlinboxers
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 5:37 pm ((PDT))

Hi Folks
I am new to this list but not new to feeding raw (6 1/2 years) but new to the concept of prey drive raw feeding. Any help anyone can give me would be great.
We breed and show Boxers and have seen a vast improvement in thier health and life expectancy. I have discovered however that the raw diet I was following has been detremental to our breeding program.
So any breeders out there - I'd love any help and ideas to help us produce healthy puppies born naturally.
We don't vaccinate and use homeopathic treatments when they aren't well.
Linda Norris
rodlinkennels
www.rodlinboxers.com

Messages in this topic (63)
________________________________________________________________________

10.2. Re: new member
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 7:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Linda!
Welcome!
It seems that we are seeing as many people coming from feeding other
types of 'raw diets' wanting to learn to feed the species appropriate
whole raw prey model way, as people who are now afraid to feed
commercial cr*p-in-a-bag. Glad to have ya!
Even though you are not as new to prey model raw as people who have
been feeding kibble, I'll post my usual spiel and you can pick out the
bits that you need and are new to you;
My recommendations:

1. You want to start with 2-3% of your dog's ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT
weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less
if your dog gets 'fluffy' over the space of a few weeks. You might
start out by weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps
don't continue once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding
raw. Tiny, toy, pregnant, puppies or very active dogs might need as
much as 4-5% or more - very large, giant, overweight or couch potato
dogs might need less than 2% to maintain.

2. Ditch the kibble â€" there’s been plenty of discussion on this list
about why kibble and raw don't mix; just let it suffice that your dog
can reap the benefits of raw faster and more completely if you donate
the kibble to your local shelter asap. A species appropriate raw whole
prey model diet doesn't include kibble. Or veggies, grains or tons of
supps. Or, for the most part, ground meats. No need for w’rec’k bones
either.

3. Feed at least 2 meals a day to start with. (three meals for a pup
under 6 months old) Feeding once a day (or even less often) can be a
great feeding plan for a dog, but not at first; too much new food at a
meal can cause digestive upset. Feed as large a portion as you can for
the size of the meal. No little pieces or cut up, ‘bite sized’ chucks.
Dogs need to tear into their food and shear hunks off to swallow and
crunch bone for physical, mental and dental health. They don’t chew or
eat the way we do, their digestion begins in their stomachs, not in
their mouths. So swallowing big hunks of meat and bone is fine. If it
fits, its OK. If it isn’t happy in the stomach, the dog will hork it
up, and re eat it, so it will go down and stay down the 2nd or 3rd
time. All good, that’s the way dogs are.

4. Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive
upset, too.

5. Stay with one new protein for at least a week, maybe two. You want
the dog to be showing you he is well adjusted to the new protein
before adding in new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new protein
every week or two.

6. You can switch to a new protein by just serving it at the next
meal, and all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a
bite or two of the new protein in with the 'old' protein, gradually
adding more new and less 'old' over several days, until you are
feeding all new and no 'old'. Whatever works for your own dog.

7. Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
amount of bone in a newbie dog's meal will tend to firm things up.
There will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less
goes to waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason.
Bone adds bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (don't go
overboard!) bone at each meal at first.

8. Chicken is recommended as the first protein to be introduced for
several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, easy to cut into different
dog meal sized portions, you can trim visible fat and skin if you need
to tweak, most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland. Read the labels
on the chicken before you buy; don't get any that say its enhanced
with flavoring/seasonings or salt injected. Some dogs get itchy or
vomit or get true diarrhea from enhancements. Whole chickens are the
best to start with, ime. Cut into portion sizes with kitchen shears,
as needed.

9. Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much
bone may not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it
out. NPs, its just the dog's way of saying "Too much right now, thanks."

10. Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bile Vomits (BV or BBV)
when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating
have been changed. When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric 'juices'
become much more acid, to better digest the raw meat and bone. If he's
expecting a meal at a certain time, the 'juices start flowing' in
anticipation of getting a meal. When the meal doesn't happen, the dog
often will hork up the yellowish, foamyish bile, with or without
bones. Sometimes they hork up BBV because raw digests faster than
kibble, the tummy is empty, so it must be time to eat. NP for the dog,
he''s gotten rid of the irritation. He may react as if he feels bad,
just because you are upset that he did it on your new comforter, or on
the white carpet.

11. A lot of dogs don't drink as much water or as frequently when
switched to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content
and most dogs are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to
compensate in order for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw,
you don't need to coax your dog to drink more water or even broth,
just offer plenty of fresh water, he'll drink when he needs it.

12. True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is
frequent, liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot 'hold
back'. True diarrhea, imo, is caused by disease, parasites or
inappropriate food or non food items. The occasional loose poops, even
over a few days, from feeding a few too many boneless meals or
introing a new protein or feeding too much organ at one whack, is not
diarrhea.

13. The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is
served must be consumed) and 10% organs (5% of this is liver, the rest
is as much variety as you can find and afford) This is not an
immutable 'daily requirement'. Balance Over Time, over weeks and
months is one of the raw feeding mottos. ; ) If you feed true whole
prey, that is; entire animals at a time, then the meat to bone to
organ ratios are 'perfect' for that creature. Whatever parts your dog
can eat of is right for him. In the wild, wolves will eat off a large
animal carcass for days, and each wolf gets different parts. If times
are hard, they will consume the entire critter, including skin, fur,
less 'choice' parts and will even crack the hard long bones to get to
the marrow. If pickin's are plentiful, they will eat the easiest and
choice parts, and then move on. Because of variances in size, age,
personality, life experiences and dental ability, a particular dog
will be able to consume, or not: all or part or some or a little bone
from any particular animal. If you feed 'Frankenprey', that is; a
variety of protein, body parts and organs from different animals, to
simulate the whole prey experience for your dogs, you are challenged
to find enough variety in all these aspects for optimal health.

14. Organs - don't try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at
first. An easy way to satisfy the human need to "Do it all, right
now!", is to toss the gizzards and heart you get with your whole
chickens in with a bonier meal, a little piece at a meal. Heart and
gizzards are organs, but should be fed as meatymeat. The liver can be
cut up into teensy bits, and fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal.
This will allow you to feed organs, but shouldn't cause runny stools.
If it does, cut it out and freeze those parts for later down the line.
My list of organs, so I don't forget to look for variety; liver, heart
(fed as meat), cheek meat, head meat, salivary glands, feet, lips,
oxtail, spleen, tongue (usually fed as meat), weasand meat
(esophagus), tripe, stomach, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears,
kidneys, brain, tripe, poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard and
snouts. Heads, with all the ‘stuff’, including eyes.
"offal" - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by
humans.

15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is "used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis."
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in 1/2 ounce
meatballs, for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with
each meal. Or, fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or
two) offer plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout
the day. Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after,
gradually increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You
will often see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of
the way it soothes the digestive system, and the dog's body will do
the same sometimes even without SEBP.

16. You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog
will eat and that won't break the bank. : ) Common grocery store
variety suffices for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish,
rabbit. Others can obtain at a reasonable price and feed; goat,
venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo, elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea
hen, quail, bear (bear? ;) ), the list goes on and on.

17. If you must supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil,
either in caps or liquid. Make sure it doesn't have any plant based
oils, like soy, in there. You probably don't need much. Follow the
recommendations that come with the product you buy:
http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

In the case of true
disease, you may need certain supps, but this is the exception to the
rule, most dogs don’t.

18. Lis' List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein,
parts and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a
free or cheap freezer to hold all the scores you'll be making!

“ Where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

A) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
B) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
C) You may be able to join a barter group.
D) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
E) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
F) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
G) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
H)If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
I) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or Google to see.
J) Try craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
K) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
L) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sam’s Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
M) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
N) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
O) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
P) A great tip I learned here a while back â€" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
Q) Farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, ‘cause they don't want to take it back with them.
R) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
S) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
T) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
U) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill. (like deer)
V) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.
W) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
X) Speak to local farmers.
Y) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats.
Z) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
AA) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lis”

Read as many daily posts as you can, read the files on the website,
and follow those links! Search in the archives for past posts with
keywords; new to raw, newbie, help, how do I start or other words that
reflect your specific search.
TC, and let us know how you and your dogs are doing!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi Folks
> I am new to this list but not new to feeding raw (6 1/2 years) but
new to the concept of prey drive raw feeding. Any help anyone can give
me would be great.
> We breed and show Boxers
<snip>
I'd love any help and ideas to help us produce healthy puppies born
naturally.
<snip>
> Linda Norris
> rodlinkennels
> www.rodlinboxers.com

Messages in this topic (63)
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11. San Diego Resources?
Posted by: "Bj" seawindbullies@yahoo.com seawindbullies
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2007 8:29 pm ((PDT))

Hello,

Does anyone know of any good meat sources in San Diego area? Currently
I purchase quite a bit from Simon at Creston Valley and am happy with
the tripe, etc. I get from him. But am looking for other sources to
also if anyone has some suggestions would appreciate.

Thanks very much.

Bj

p.s. I read on a website on raw feeding that heart, tongue, and
gizzards count as meat so that means one can feed more of these than
one would of say for instance, liver. Is that right?

Messages in this topic (1)
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