Feed Pets Raw Food: Nov 14, 2007

Wednesday, November 14, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12279

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: New to list
From: Joni
1.2. Re: New to list
From: aliciamyan
1.3. Re: New to list
From: Bumble1994@aol.com
1.4. Re: New to list
From: Joni
1.5. Re: New to list
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Stunned
From: Yasuko herron

3. bones for puppies
From: icemama68

4a. Re: problems on raw food
From: steph.sorensen
4b. Re: problems on raw food
From: Sandee Lee
4c. Re: problems on raw food
From: Yasuko herron
4d. Re: problems on raw food
From: Stephanie Sorensen
4e. Re: problems on raw food
From: Salvador Gonzalez Jr.
4f. Re: problems on raw food
From: spricketysprock
4g. Re: problems on raw food
From: Yasuko herron

5. Um, Brains?
From: Jen Craver

6a. Re: puppy constipated
From: cmhausrath

7a. Chinese Crested gulper
From: iluvshortlegs
7b. Re: Chinese Crested gulper
From: Salvador Gonzalez Jr.
7c. Re: Chinese Crested gulper
From: Yasuko herron

8.1. Chicken Backs
From: windmilldairy
8.2. Re: Chicken Backs
From: Mallory Kwiatkowski
8.3. Re: Chicken Backs
From: Mallory Kwiatkowski
8.4. Re: Chicken Backs
From: Michelle
8.5. Re: Chicken Backs
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

9a. Re: I need a new vet!!
From: Shannon Parker

Messages
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1.1. Re: New to list
Posted by: "Joni" naturalbeautyandnutrition@yahoo.com naturalbeautyandnutrition
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:19 pm ((PST))

Ok, I have a suggestion for you.It may work,it may not work,but
remember rawfeeding is balance over time,yeah?
>
> so,you do not have to feed bone all the time and also,some dogs
do better with 20% bone intake and some is ok with 10%.It depends.
>
> However,if you stick to 10% bone intake,how about doing this
method??
>
> 4ozx4days=16oz which is1lb sharp,right?
>
> If you wanted to feed roughly 10% bone,you can feed 1.6oz of bone
every 4 days and rest is boneless 14.4oz.
>
> Usually,1 chicken feet weigh about 1.5oz so, 1 chicken feet every
4 days if you understand.
>
> It does not have to be exact amount of number so,you can bump up
the bone to 2oz and 14oz of boneless meat for 4 days time.
>
> and if yourdog had poo prob without any bone during 4 days
time,then,you can feed every 2 days. 4ozx2days=8oz(half pound)
>
> So,about 1oz of bone in every 2 days. and rest is boneless.
>
> you can adjust that over-time.
yassy

Thank you yassy, that is a very big help. I thought I had to feed
bone everyday. She has done so well on this raw diet so far. I don't
want to make it hard on her now because of adding bones into her diet.
So thank you thank you. I am going to go for it and do it the way you
talked about. I think that will work better. I am also going to go by
what allot here have said, to get small game like hens etc. I think
that will be easyier to not give her to much.

I have a hard time with my disabilities to cut things up and cut into
small pieces. So I think just getting small game with help with that.
Then the worst I have is cutting it into a few pieces.

Joni

Messages in this topic (100)
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1.2. Re: New to list
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:31 pm ((PST))

Joni,

Technically, the butcher I contacted isn't "selling" me the meat
(heart, tongue, liver). They are "giving" me the meat but charging
me the cost of cutting and wrapping - the same cost to the farmer who
brought the animal in to be butchered. Often the person purchasing
the meat isn't the farmer who brought the animal in to be butchered.
The butcher will cut and wrap the offals not knowing if the customer
will want them. When the customer comes to pick up the meat, and
they turn down the offals, and the farmer doesn't want them either,
then they sit in the freezer or go in the trash. The butcher was
pleased to get the stuff out of their freezer and get reimbursed for
their expense. You might try that angle with the butcher and see if
they could work with you on that. Be sure to explain you are feeding
it to your dogs, not humans.

You might consider watching your local paper and see which farmers
are advertising meat and contact them directly about purchasing the
offals from them. They probably use the same butcher you contacted
and after a few visits picking up your orders from the farmers, you
can build a relationship that might open a door for more
opportunities.

Hope that info helps.
Alicia

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Joni"
<naturalbeautyandnutrition@...> wrote:
>
> I just called the only butcher in my whole area. He said they can't
> sell any of the scraps like organs or anything. He said he didn't
> even know if it was legal to sell and that he gets it from farmers.
> Something about a contract or gave me the impression that he is not
> allowed to sell any of the scraps but has to throw them away.

Messages in this topic (100)
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1.3. Re: New to list
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:02 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/14/2007 7:19:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, "Joni"
writes:

But my dog can only have about 4oz a day. That would be such a small amount
of bone that I don't know how to work it out.
I gave her a turkey thigh today with the bone. I cut some of the meat
off to give her tonight. But the thigh bone maybe more then the 10%.

***
That's about how much my cats need. I feed some meat with something that has
a bone in it about every 4th or 5th meal (feeding twice a day), a piece of
liver or kidney for organ meat (just found some sweetbread) gets thrown in also
about every 4th or 5th meal, and the rest of the time, they get good old
meaty meat. :)

Lynda

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (100)
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1.4. Re: New to list
Posted by: "Joni" naturalbeautyandnutrition@yahoo.com naturalbeautyandnutrition
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:05 pm ((PST))

> will want them. When the customer comes to pick up the meat, and
> they turn down the offals, and the farmer doesn't want them either,
> then they sit in the freezer or go in the trash. The butcher was
> pleased to get the stuff out of their freezer and get reimbursed
for
> their expense. You might try that angle with the butcher and see
if
> they could work with you on that. Be sure to explain you are
feeding
> it to your dogs, not humans.
>
> You might consider watching your local paper and see which farmers
> are advertising meat and contact them directly about purchasing the
> offals from them. They probably use the same butcher you contacted
> and after a few visits picking up your orders from the farmers, you
> can build a relationship that might open a door for more
> opportunities.
>
> Hope that info helps.
> Alicia

That info was very helpful, I will give it a try.
Joni

Messages in this topic (100)
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1.5. Re: New to list
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:59 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Joni"
<naturalbeautyandnutrition@...> wrote:
>
> In my area there is not much to choose
> from and anything that is natural is so expensive. But I am afraid
> that if I feed my animals hormones and antibiotics that are in the
> meat they will gain more weight and they may get immune to the
> antibiotics so that if they ever do need them they would not
> have the effect the antibotics should.

Joni,
Chicken doesn't have hormones and rarely does it have antibiotics.
Hundreds of millions of people and tens of thousands of dogs eat
chicken every day.

I don't buy into the paranoia about grocery store foods. I eat all
kinds of meats and feed all kinds to my dogs. I pay no attention to
grassfed or hormone free or enhanced or any of that stuff some
people are so terrified of.

> But also most are
> saying 10% of the amount you feed should be bone and no more.

Don't worry about percentages. They are arbitrary numbers that have
no meaning. You need to feed mostly meat, some bone and some
organs. Exact amounts just don't matter. You don't have to feed
bone every day.

> But my
> dog can only have about 4oz a day. That would be such a
> small amount
> of bone that I don't know how to work it out.

Feed meat every day. Sometimes feed bone. Sometimes feed organs.
Sometimes feed meat only.

> I gave her a turkey thigh today with the bone. I cut some of
> the meat off to give her tonight.

I don't think you will ever want to take meat off the bone.

> But the thigh bone maybe more then the 10%.

It's close to 22% bone.

> I might have to try graigs list or whatever it is called.

craigslist is a good source as is freecycle. BUT ... the meat you
get from those places came from grocery stores most of the time.

If you have a freezer you can but in bulk and save a lot of money.
Check the small independent grocery stores about buying in bulk from
them. Visit in person. I never had any luck on the phone.

Check with local restaurants (not the fast food chains) and find out
where they buy their meats. Get yours from the same place they do.
Again, you will have to buy in bulk.

> I am just nerves from some of the stuff I heard about the list.

Don't be. There is nothing to be afraid of. Some people here will
feed rotten stinking meat to thier dogs but they won't feed grocery
store meat. Just doesn't make sense. If you will eat meat in a
restaurant or from a grocery store, your dog can too. Think about
it.

> I also am
> finding that going to the websites you all have given links to
> is so costly to buy with the shipping. I just don't know if I
> can afford that.

Don't worry about it. Your local grocery stores have everything you
need. Most of us buy grocery store meat. 99% of the people in the
country eat meat from grocery stores. I bet most of these people
that are afraid to feed it to their dogs eat it regularly. I bet
they also give their dogs tap water to drink and think nothing of
that.

> There must be a way to keep the cost down and still feed them
> enough meat and different kinds.

Yep, lots and lots of ways.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (100)
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2a. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:19 pm ((PST))

>Reily is maintaining his some what overweight. 90 lb be better for him.That is on the low side for his size .,But with his bilateral knee dysplasias it is better if he were on the skinny side. I was feeding him a pound and a half, and he was gaining.

What food are you feeding?? Possibly quite fatty food?? Like mutton??

Do you excersize your dog??

> I wonder ,just to add more eggs and hart (low fat) to his diet to bring up the
protein in his food .

Look at this site.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c201n.html

Egg is 63% fat.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c21Dd.html

Lamb tongue is70% fat

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20ts.html

Beef heart is 32% fat.

You can look up fat % on thissite and choose what you feed and how much you feed.

No wonder my dog could not torelate 4oz of lamb tongue when I just introduced her months ago....

I still do feed lamb tongue but lower amount of food with other meat to have so-so-fat% with so-so kcal she can burn,not excessleft to become fat in body.

I recently changed my idea on feeding my dog to loose a pound or two for long back body(corgi). If I feed 10oz roughly without any fat restriction,she be usually gets more than 600kcal per day andfat% be above 50% most of the time. She did gain weight 5lb after switching to raw although we do walking too.

I then thought that kcal she takes from food is too much for her activity level so,I lowered the kcal rather than food amount and mix and match meat when I feed high fat item like lamb tongue,I check on this site and keep the fat % around 40%.she isgetting about 450k to bit over 500kcal per day thesedays.

We go for walks 2 times a day and she lost 0.6lb so far.Not much but at least,not gaining.

yassy

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3. bones for puppies
Posted by: "icemama68" icemama68@aol.com icemama68
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:31 pm ((PST))

Hello,

I want to give my 10 week old puppies some bones to chew on- which are
the best for puppies? They are Portuguese Podengo Medio puppies- grown
up they will be about Whippet size.

Thank you,
Allison Jones-Michigan

Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:33 pm ((PST))

Wow, I always cut the fat off of their pork and beef just because I
don't like feeding them fat (I think fat on meat is gross - it takes me
about an hour to pick through a piece of brisket that I'm eating). Now
I'm glad I do it for another reason!

Thanks for the info!

-Steph and the girls

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@...> wrote:

I think fat is responsible for a lot of problems that dogs
> experience on the raw diet.
>
> Best wishes,
> Nora
> UltimateK-9Health@yahoogroups.com
>

Messages in this topic (15)
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4b. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:44 pm ((PST))

Except that it's nonsense, Steph! :) *You* might think fat is gross, but
your dogs don't and it is a necessary part of the diet. Low fat isn't
healthy for canine or human!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "steph.sorensen" <steph.sorensen@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (15)
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4c. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:57 pm ((PST))

>I always cut the fat off of their pork and beef just because I don't like feeding them fat (I think fat on meat is gross - it takes me about an hour to pick through a piece of brisket that I'm eating

Hi,steph. I clip visible glob of too much fat pieceif it exist but other than that,I don't cut off fat. When you have goatrib,there is quite thick fat skin-like and I tend to cut off some of it but I don't cut off every tiny piece of fat.

I cut most fat skin of Duck piece but it is just because she cannot torelate well on piece of Duck meat that has fat skin on.If she gets torelate well,I will leave fat on.

I may look amount of Duck piece to feed for fat intake but,I don't worry about fat on if dog can torelate ok with it.

Some fat is needed for Energy for dog.

yassy

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4d. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "Stephanie Sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:57 pm ((PST))

I know. :) Trust me, they get WAY more fat on their meat than I do on mine. I just don't like the way it tastes. Yuck. >:-P It's just that the beef brisket they've been eating on this week was about 40% fat. I just think that is a little too much, don't you? Should I not trim it anymore? It does make the final product weigh much less than the product I bought.

Interested to know others' thoughts on this. My girls are also quite gassy, which I've found is cut back by feeding less fat.

-Steph and the girls

Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:
Except that it's nonsense, Steph! :) *You* might think fat is gross, but
your dogs don't and it is a necessary part of the diet. Low fat isn't
healthy for canine or human!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "steph.sorensen" <steph.sorensen@yahoo.com>

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4e. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "Salvador Gonzalez Jr." salgonza@sbcglobal.net salgonza22
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:57 pm ((PST))

So if the dog is to eat 10% fat.

Lets say 80lbs dog eating 2% of his weight.

He shouldn't have no more than 2.56oz of fat?

From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Howard Salob
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 3:46 PM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Re: problems on raw food

Dear Nora,

Well said! I am a chiropractor and you could not of said it more
appropriately. You gave the science and the raw feeding rule is 10% fat- no
more.

Sincerely,

Howard

Nora Lenz <nmlenz@speakeasy.net <mailto:nmlenz%40speakeasy.net> > wrote:
Hi Mike,
I just wanted to comment a bit more on the vomiting of yellow bile,
which my dog used to do regularly, even after being raw fed for many
years. I desperately sought advice from veteran raw feeders and all I
was ever told was that I needed to feed more often. I finally figured
out the problem on my own, and resolved it, after much thought and
research. Bile's function in the body is to break down fats, and when
a dog is over-fed fats, the body is forced to produce more of it than
it normally would. When a dog anticipates a meal, bile is secreted in
preparation for digestion. It enters the stomach, where it would
normally mix with food. When there is no food present, bile irritates
the stomach lining and the body's response is to get rid of it hastily
via vomiting. The answer isn ot to keep food in the stomach so the
bile always has something to do, but to get the dog on a low-fat diet
so that the body will stop producing so much bile. My dog used to
vomit bile almost everyday and it probably took a year or more on a
low fat diet before it stopped completely, but now he *never* vomits
bile. I had to cut WAY back on his fat consumption, to the point of
feeding very low fat meats -- quail, venison, game hens, all trimmed.
All of the other symptoms he used to experience have gone away too,
so I think fat is responsible for a lot of problems that dogs
experience on the raw diet.

Best wishes,
Nora
UltimateK-9Health@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:UltimateK-9Health%40yahoogroups.com>

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4f. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:02 pm ((PST))

I think both are valid causes. I'm glad you posted this... when I first
switched my dog to raw, he threw up bile all the time because his
stomach wasn't used to being empty. He adjusted in a few weeks and
hadn't thrown up for months. I recently got him a whole chicken that
was very fatty, and the day after eating some he vomited yellow bile
several times, very likely because of all the fat he'd eaten.

Jess & Toby

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@> wrote:
> >The answer isn ot to keep food in the stomach so the
> > bile always has something to do, but to get the dog on a low-fat
diet
> > so that the body will stop producing so much bile.
> *****
> I would argue that a healthy dog can indeed consume quite a bit of
> fat.

Messages in this topic (15)
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4g. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:23 pm ((PST))

>So if the dog is to eat 10% fat. Lets say 80lbs dog eating 2% of his weight. He shouldn't have no more than 2.56oz of fat?

I think people are confusing with organ %. I do not think you can find diet consists of 10% fat in meal. Even lean Turkey has 38% fat.

Like chris hassaid,10% is for oegan intake which is 5% liver andrest is kidney etc.

And,other 10% you find on this list is with bone intake.Too much bone cause constipation and, too much bone is too much calcium and too less other important nutrients you find in meat..

I am kind of wondering if you were thinking bone equal to fat because bone has marrow in it.

But I do not think making diet with 10% fat intake is impossible unless the diet is based on carb or something.

And, question is,if there were diet that has 10% fat in it,how do they calculate fat in diet??
I do not think it is possible...fat is in meat,fat is in bone marrow,fat in skin etc..

I do not think fat 10% rule exists.. maybe mistook with something else..

yassy

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5. Um, Brains?
Posted by: "Jen Craver" jcraver1@nc.rr.com ncrnrgrl
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:57 pm ((PST))

I recently got 60# of you name it meat products, some organs, some whole prey, pretty much you name it, including a thing of pork brains... ? Do you guys feed brains? Am I being a newbie sissy? :)

Thanks,
Jen C.

--
Alcohol doesn't solve any problems, but then again, neither does milk.

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6a. Re: puppy constipated
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:35 pm ((PST))

"vickies_28" <vickies_28@...> wrote:

> I have an 8 mo old puppy on raw for about 3 months. Now, he is
> constipated, hasn't gottten any poo for 2 days straight. I didn't
feed
> him any bone for the past 5 days at all. lately been beef and
liver.

My dog has had longish poop-free periods -- 2-3 days, perhaps.
Particularly if he's been eating meat only. It would seem -- though
I say this based only on my impression, not on any external
reference -- that he's digesting **everything** that comes in, and
there's no excess to be gotten rid of.

Curious: why the 5-day stretch with no bone at all? Coincidence, or
something intentional?

> He doesn't seem to be sick or upset or anything. What do I do?
Should
> I worry? I gave him yogurt today in the morning - still nothing.

If he doesn't seem upset at all, why should you be? Seriously, I
wouldn't worry about it. Whatever he's eating is either being
digested, or it'll eventually come out somewhere. If he doesn't seem
uncomfortable -- straining to poop but unable, or with a distended
belly, or unable to lay down comfortably, etc. -- I don't see what
there is to worry about.

Also curious: why yogurt? Some dogs are very tolerant of
inappropriate foods like yogurt; others have digestive upheaval when
given dairy products. For the record, I don't believe that all food
items must always be perfectly healthy and species-appropriate -- my
dog likes oatmeal cookies, and I like ice cream -- but I DO believe
that any time you're concerned about your dog's health (as in,
thinking your pup is constipated), that's NOT the time to be adding
random, species-inappropriate foods.

IMO.

-- sandy & griffin

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7a. Chinese Crested gulper
Posted by: "iluvshortlegs" iluvshortlegs@yahoo.com iluvshortlegs
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:23 pm ((PST))

I have two dogs that I have been feeding raw for about 3 years now, a
20 lb. standard doxie and a 50 lb mixed breed, both are nice gnawers.
I recently brought home a 9 lb. 6 mo. old Chinese Crested from the
shelter I work at, and this little guy gulps down the chicken I started
him out on. I've been cutting it into bite sized pieces since he
almost swallowed half a chicken wing. He does just fine with a beef
rib since he has absolutely no chance of swallowing it, and must chew
and tear the meat from the bone. Any other suggestions for feeding?
Also, if there are other crestie raw feeders on this list, is this
going to help his acne?

Kris

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Chinese Crested gulper
Posted by: "Salvador Gonzalez Jr." salgonza@sbcglobal.net salgonza22
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:51 pm ((PST))

+++++++++Mod note: please sign and trim your messages. this message trimmed for you by a mod ++++++++++++++++++

Maybe trying leg quarters and cut off some of the mean. That might slow him
down with the longer bone.

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: Chinese Crested gulper
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:51 pm ((PST))

> I've been cutting it into bite sized pieces since he almost swallowed half a chicken wing.

Hi,kris. I think the smaller the piece is,the more tempting for dogs to swallow whole.

If you feed chicken wing,then,make sure it still attached to breast part and,this would allow dog to slow down and no swallowing whole.

Buy a whole bird and cut up to your dog's portion,no 1inch dice cube chunks or isolated tiny parts of bird in meal anymore.

this should help.but again,dog do not necessary chew like us and they crunch food till they get small enough size to swallow so,it is like crunch crunch swallow.

If piece was small enough,they never chew.

yassy

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8.1. Chicken Backs
Posted by: "windmilldairy" drwindmill@gmail.com windmilldairy
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:24 pm ((PST))

Just wondering what others are paying for cases of chicken backs..

Pat

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8.2. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "Mallory Kwiatkowski" m_k_jesusfreak3@yahoo.com m_k_jesusfreak3
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:51 pm ((PST))

+++++++++Mod note: please sign your messages. ++++++++++++++++++

where are you all getting cases of chicken backs? or cases of anything for that matter. I have been feeding 5 dogs raw from the grocery store, and i just can't do that anymore. where do you all go?

Messages in this topic (37)
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8.3. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "Mallory Kwiatkowski" m_k_jesusfreak3@yahoo.com m_k_jesusfreak3
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:51 pm ((PST))

where are you all getting cases of chicken backs? or cases of anything for that matter. I have been feeding 5 dogs raw from the grocery store, and i just can't do that anymore. where do you all go?
mallory.
yay, i remembered to sign my name.

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8.4. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "Michelle" michelledearden@mac.com michelledearden
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:12 pm ((PST))

Hello I am paying .47 per lb for organic chicken necks and backs

Michelle Sharpe

On Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at 07:24PM, "windmilldairy" <drwindmill@gmail.com> wrote:
>Just wondering what others are paying for cases of chicken backs..
>
>Pat
>
>

Messages in this topic (37)
________________________________________________________________________

8.5. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:12 pm ((PST))

Not enough meat on the backs for my dogs, I do the whole chickens, when I did do backs, I got them for .40 a pound. But like I said, not enough meat on them to pay for them any more.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (37)
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9a. Re: I need a new vet!!
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:24 pm ((PST))

Hi There,

Just stop telling your vet you feed raw. They are the last person you should look to for an unbiased opinion, so just tell them you feed a high quality kibble. Most dog-related issues won't be a result of your diet, especially if you're on raw.
Shannon

hungrymoses <hungrymoses@yahoo.com> wrote:
MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is there anyone out there who can recommend a vet in the Montreal area
that won't tell me what an idiot I am for feeding my dog a raw diet?
I've already been to three that have warned me of the horrible danger
I'm putting my dog in. Please help...

---------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12278

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Stunned
From: Tina Berry
1b. Re: Stunned
From: Scott Baker
1c. Re: Stunned
From: Barbara Knight
1d. Re: Stunned
From: costrowski75
1e. Re: Stunned
From: Scott Baker

2a. im new
From: pfs.freedom
2b. Re: im new
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

3a. Re: 7 week puppy with diarrhea
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

4a. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
From: steph.sorensen

5a. E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
From: cesar valdez
5b. ADMIN/Vaccines, wasRe:E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled
From: costrowski75

6a. "CONGO"
From: MORGAN LEWIS
6b. ADMIN/Re: "CONGO"
From: costrowski75

7.1. Re: New to list
From: aliciamyan
7.2. Re: New to list
From: Joni
7.3. Re: New to list
From: Yasuko herron

8a. Re: Deer bones
From: costrowski75
8b. Re: Deer bones
From: Joni

9.1. Re: Liver
From: costrowski75

10.1. Re: Feeding Pork
From: Yasuko herron

11a. Re: problems on raw food
From: Nora Lenz
11b. Re: problems on raw food
From: Howard Salob
11c. Re: problems on raw food
From: costrowski75
11d. Re: problems on raw food
From: costrowski75

12. puppy constipated
From: vickies_28

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:53 am ((PST))

"Vets are usually all "raw is too much protein", but this one thinks that
raw is too little protein! Hey, points for novelty, anyway."

They must learn this in their whole 4 hours of animal nutrition courses in
vet school. Put on by none other then SD.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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1b. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "Scott Baker" scottsbaker@gmail.com scottpsbaker
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:23 pm ((PST))

a bit off topic but we cant really say he has to be fed a minimum of 2lbs.
amount fed is based on weight yes, but also on activity level. The 2% thing
is a starting point, nothing more. You adjust the amount as needed, either
up or down.

On Nov 14, 2007 2:31 PM, <Anntiga@aol.com> wrote:

> Reily should be getting a minimum of 2 pounds of raw meat and bones a
> day.
> Dogs are supposed to be fed two percent (.02) to three percent (.03) of
> the
> their ideal adult body weight.
>
> .02 times 97 equals 1.94. .03 times 97 equals 2.91. Reily should be
> getting 1.94 to 2.91 pounds of RMBs a day.
>
> Remember that Reily should be getting 80% raw meat (organ meats not
> included), 10% raw bone covered in raw meat, and 10% organ meats like
> liver.
>
> My vets are anti raw also. They worry that Norman, my 54 pound Portuguese
> Water dog (PWD) is not getting enough carbohydrates.
>
> We just agree to disagree about raw feeding.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Ann
> Norman (PWD)
> San Francisco Peninsula, CA
>

--
Scott

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "Barbara Knight" rbmc1231937@yahoo.com rbmc1231937
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:30 pm ((PST))

Reily is maintaining his some what overweight. 90 lb be better for him.That is on the low side for his size .,But with his bilateral knee dysplasias it is better if he were on the skinny side. I was feeding him a pound and a half, and he was gaining. figure that. I wonder , just to add more eggs and hart (low fat) to his diet to bring up the protein in his food . And hir ,I was worried that his all meat and bone diet was to hi .. I can use some help to twig his diet. I was stunned that he was to be low on protein. His fur is thick and shiny Barb&Reily

----- Original Message ----
From: mmc2315 <m.chelap@sbcglobal.net>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 12:29:46 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Stunned

"rbmc1231937" wrote:

> but because he is97 lb, and
> not active I am feeding one Pound a day.

What is his ideal weight? Is he losing weight, gaining, or maintaining?

Michelle

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

>
> a bit off topic but we cant really say he has to be fed a minimum of
2lbs.
> amount fed is based on weight yes, but also on activity level. The
2% thing
> is a starting point, nothing more. You adjust the amount as needed,
either
> up or down.
*****
This is not off topic. This is the purpose (one of the many) of the
rawfeeding list--to help the rawfeeder optimize the diet. What is off
topic/off the wall is the vet who is confusing blood protein with
dietary protein.

As wonderful Sandee pointed out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "Scott Baker" scottsbaker@gmail.com scottpsbaker
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:15 pm ((PST))

Well said Chris :)

On Nov 14, 2007 6:59 PM, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:

> >
> > a bit off topic but we cant really say he has to be fed a minimum of
> 2lbs.
> > amount fed is based on weight yes, but also on activity level. The
> 2% thing
> > is a starting point, nothing more. You adjust the amount as needed,
> either
> > up or down.
> *****
> This is not off topic. This is the purpose (one of the many) of the
> rawfeeding list--to help the rawfeeder optimize the diet. What is off
> topic/off the wall is the vet who is confusing blood protein with
> dietary protein.
>
> As wonderful Sandee pointed out.
> Chris O
>
> __._
>

--
Scott

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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2a. im new
Posted by: "pfs.freedom" staylor@chjinc.com pfs.freedom
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:53 am ((PST))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!

Hi everyone. Im new to raw feeding and will be getting a chihuahua
puppy next month. he will be 10 weeks old when I get him. the breeder
is feeding him "puppy food" sadly. Im trying to get educated on what is
good to feed a pup that small. Plus my local grocery store dosent carry
any special kinds of bones. just what you can get in the packages ie.
chicken wings/legs, beef and pork ribs. should I just stick to chicken
for now? I read somewhere on here you shouldnt use the ground meet but
let them eat the whole animal parts. Suggestions for my new little guy
would be appreciated. thanks!

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: im new
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:23 pm ((PST))

Hello newbie, whatever your name may be,:)
I have had giant breed dogs all along, but got my little pomchi when my Aunt passed and was freekin, worried about what in the world would I do for her.... like you I couldn't figure it out, don't know why, I'm relatively smart, somewhat educated, and then the wonderful people here helped me out, and it was so simple I wanted to kick myself.:)
Think small, like game hens, small whole chickens, cut up, into the right size meals, and even going further, prey model, rabit, mice, and so on, can be found everywhere. Go online join some local groups that do large buys and find ground rabit, emu, and such, with the bones in the ground up meat already, that makes it nice. Tripe is great, they love it, and it's very nutritious. And don't forget organ meats, and fish too, just go small. My little pomchi is such a carnivore, she loves chewing bones, and stops when she can't finish but guards it from the bigs danes, she's so funny too:)
On bones, for chewing and teeth cleaning, you can take ribs, and give him one or two with the meat still on them, and let him at them, and any raw meaty bone, that you have from any butcher, or that you find under a hunk of meat, will work that your dog can wrap his little mouth around. I find ribs are great since our pomchi can eat the bone too, and gets all the nutrients from it as well. But emu ribs are great too, and pigs feet, small ones work well.
You'll get it, and it's fun too!
Congrats on the puppy, it'll be so fun for you.
Jeni

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Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: 7 week puppy with diarrhea
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:22 pm ((PST))

wings and necks, are too boney, that could be the problem, not enough meat at all, try just some boneless meat for several days, necks and wings are way too boney, not nearly enough meat, did I say NOT ENOUGH MEAT, :)
Try some boneless thighs, breasts, and ground chicken is fine, just make it all meat for a few days, if not longer to see if that helps, and tell the vet, the diet shouldn't be the problem, as the diet is not new to the dog, as far as the vet is concerned, make him work for his money, do the sample, and see what comes of it, probably nothing, probably too much bone, hopefully it is that simple.
And please stop the deworming, once should do it, too many chemicals. Poor thing. Give it a rest, and just do the meaty chicken.
And when you go back to chicken with bones, try the whole chicken, but cut it into pieces the puppy can handle, that way you have the meat to bone ratio down a little better, bone should only be about 10% of the meals, so necks, in my opinion, are a waste of money, but if your dog likes them, maybe have them for recreation, not nutrition. And the meals will work themselves out thru out the week when you do the whole chickens, with the bones, the meat, and with the whole chickens, they come with the little organs too, so you get your organs for the week too:)
Just a thought, let us know what the vet says.
Jeni

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Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:23 pm ((PST))

I have only been feeding my girls raw for about 3 and a half months
now, but I had an incident of "pudding poops" when I let my pit bull
try some pork for the first time. All I did was switch back to
chicken for another couple of weeks (I fed nothing but chicken for the
first month and a half of their switch from kibble), and that fixed
that problem. I also cut out the organ meat for those couple of weeks
also.

Just keeping it simple by starting out on one protein only and keeping
them on it awhile allows their systems to adjust to the change. I
would definitely go with chicken quarters until she seems to be
stabilized and doing well. Then I would SLOWLY introduce other
proteins into her diet. But if you feed one protein on one day, feed
the same protein for all meals during that day. Switching midday
might be too much for her system at this early stage in the game.

Also keep in mind that her poop will change depending on what she
eats. Stools will be softer and runnier with boneless meals, have
different colors and smells depending on what they're eating, and they
may be downright rank. That isn't necessarily bad; it is just an
effect of eating different kinds of meat.

Just keep at it, keep using the list as a valuable resource, and
you'll be raw feeding like a pro in no time!

-Steph and the girls

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "totaly_his" <totaly_his@...> wrote:

I have always had some chicken w/bones
> with a small amount of beef for her meals, never just a beef meal
yet.
> Hearts.liver and gizzards were added once a week and only 1 or 2
> pieces. I haven't even tried fish, pork, etc. yet. My girl weighs 30
> lbs. and I feed her 2-3 pieces of bonein chicken w/ beef once a day.
I
> will take your suggestion and feed her 1 or 2 pieces of chicken
twice a
> day. Would that be right? Thanks for your help. Jackie
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

5a. E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
Posted by: "cesar valdez" chorizo4662@yahoo.com chorizo4662
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:23 pm ((PST))

One quick question. Is it a FACT that when you
rawfeed, you do not need to give the dog any
vaccinations? NONE AT ALL? Not even the rabies shot?
Thanks everyone.

Cesar

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Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. ADMIN/Vaccines, wasRe:E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:02 pm ((PST))

This is not a subject for this list. Please post all vaccine
questions and answers to RawChat. Thank you.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (8)
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________________________________________________________________________

6a. "CONGO"
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:46 pm ((PST))

For those of you who aren't familiar with this situation; a GSD protecting its master, is under a death sentence, delayed 60 days for appeal thanks to the calls to the NJ Gov. and the Judge. Below is one of the most obsurd statements I have ever heard, thought your comments to Judge and Gov might be a valuable insight, since apparently we are ALL feeding for "aggression". Damn some people who should know better are really stupid. Morgan

But can I just SCREAM at the comment attributed to the
warden:

Johnson (WARDEN)also doesn't buy James' (Owner) claim that his
dogs were bred for obedience. "He fed them raw meat and
dead rabbits," he said. "That puts aggression in
a dog."

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. ADMIN/Re: "CONGO"
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:04 pm ((PST))

This is entirely off topic for the rawfeeding list. Further posts
will be deleted. Thank you.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7.1. Re: New to list
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:47 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hmize1" <hmize1@...> wrote:
>
> I am curious about the cost of feeding raw foods. We currently
spend
> about $60/month on dry food.

Heather,

I'm new to raw as well (about 2 months) and I started out concerned
about cost. After reading some great tips here I've managed to spend
less than I was on "premium kibble" (if such a thing actually
existed). I keep an ad on craigslist which already has brought in
90lbs of beautiful elk meat and serveral offers that didn't work out
due to timing. Word of mouth through friends has also filled my
freezer - we had a friend's freezers get turned off by contractors
and ruined everything - instead of throwing it out, she gave it to me
(moose, bear, elk, beef, chicken). Another friend's husband had to
clear out his freezer to make way for this year's bird hunting
season. I just made contact with a butcher and purchased 100lbs
of "unwanted" beef parts (heart, liver, tongue) from them for the
cost of wrapping ($.50/lb) and the offer to come back for more.
Thankfully, my grandma is giving me her extra freezer, as our stand
up freezer is full (3/4=dog food & 1/4=people food). The way
I look at it, depending how you acquire your meat, you will either
spend time and save money or spend money and save time - the choice
is yours!

Best of luck,
Alicia

Messages in this topic (95)
________________________________________________________________________

7.2. Re: New to list
Posted by: "Joni" naturalbeautyandnutrition@yahoo.com naturalbeautyandnutrition
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:07 pm ((PST))

I just made contact with a butcher and purchased 100lbs
> of "unwanted" beef parts (heart, liver, tongue) from them for the
> cost of wrapping ($.50/lb) and the offer to come back for more.
> Best of luck,
Alicia

I just called the only butcher in my whole area. He said they can't
sell any of the scraps like organs or anything. He said he didn't
even know if it was legal to sell and that he gets it from farmers.
Something about a contract or gave me the impression that he is not
allowed to sell any of the scraps but has to throw them away.

I never heard of such a thing. I am having a hard time with the money
it is costing me to buy meat. In my area there is not much to choose
from and anything that is natural is so expensive. But I am afraid
that if I feed my animals hormones and antibiotics that are in the
meat they will gain more weight and they may get immune to the
antibiotics so that if they ever do need them they would not have the
effect the antibotics should.

I would like to know the groups thoughts on that. But also most are
saying 10% of the amount you feed should be bone and no more. But my
dog can only have about 4oz a day. That would be such a small amount
of bone that I don't know how to work it out.
I gave her a turkey thigh today with the bone. I cut some of the meat
off to give her tonight. But the thigh bone maybe more then the 10%.
I could use some help with that also.

I might have to try graigs list or whatever it is called. I am just
nerves from some of the stuff I heard about the list. I also am
finding that going to the websites you all have given links to is so
costly to buy with the shipping. I just don't know if I can afford
that. There must be a way to keep the cost down and still feed them
enough meat and different kinds.

Joni

Messages in this topic (95)
________________________________________________________________________

7.3. Re: New to list
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:44 pm ((PST))

>He said they can't sell any of the scraps like organs or anything. He said he didn't
even know if it was legal to sell and that he gets it from farmers.

HI,Joni. I tried to buy Goat from Maine state,and the farmer there told methat i cannot buy Goat tongue for it is illegal to harvest.I did not hearabout other organs though..

All processors the lady tried to ask about tongue answered her "No" to her request;harvesting goat tongue. So,I do not get surprised to hearsuch similarstory in this list.

Afterall, I could not get goat tongue and never will from anywhere i am guessing.

> But also most are saying 10% of the amount you feed should be bone and no more. But my dog can only have about 4oz a day.

Ok, I have a suggestion for you.It may work,it may not work,but remember rawfeeding is balance over time,yeah?

so,you do not have to feed bone all the time and also,some dogs do better with 20% bone intake and some is ok with 10%.It depends.

However,if you stick to 10% bone intake,how about doing this method??

4ozx4days=16oz which is1lb sharp,right?

If you wanted to feed roughly 10% bone,you can feed 1.6oz of bone every 4 days and rest is boneless 14.4oz.

Usually,1 chicken feet weigh about 1.5oz so, 1 chicken feet every 4 days if you understand.

It does not have to be exact amount of number so,you can bump up the bone to 2oz and 14oz of boneless meat for 4 days time.

and if yourdog had poo prob without any bone during 4 days time,then,you can feed every 2 days. 4ozx2days=8oz(half pound)

So,about 1oz of bone in every 2 days. and rest is boneless.

you can adjust that over-time.

if you can buy items in bulk,then coop isanotherway to get meat cheaper.

and,don't forget now is turkey time and quite cheap on Turkey (I usually see 39 cents per pound for turkey)and,I found Fowl with $1.30/lb and it was 6lb bird.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (95)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Deer bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:41 pm ((PST))

"naturalbeautyandnutrition" <naturalbeautyandnutrition@...> wrote:
>
>I
> can't remember the site name for sure, but this women said to use
10%
> organ meat, but only of that meat and do not mix your meat with a
> different organ. Plus 10% veggies and fruit and gave a list of
just
> what they can and can not have.
*****
I don't know who this person may be (although if you were to mention
the name I might be familiar with it) but a species appropriate diet
is not one of her concerns, clearly. There are worse things by far
than "mixing" proteins; fruits and veggies taking up valuable menu
space are two of them.

What a dog can have is virtually any meat protein and virtually any
body part. The things a good menu SHOULD NOT dwell on are
vegetation, plant-based oils, cooked food and of course processed
foodlike products. Whether a dog simply CANNOT have any of these is
stretching it a bit: most anything remotely edible can be eaten by a
dog. The "cannot's" are pretty much identified by the individual
dog's needs.

I already lost
> one dog to cancer
*****
I have lost two, probably three dogs to cancer, and probably one
cat. Raw diets cannot fix everything. Raw diets alone will fix
even less. Cancer is a pestilence born of many more things than a
crappy diet.

I just don't want
> her to get hurt on the bones
*****
I doubt there's anyone on this list who would intentionally direct
you to options that will hurt your dog. Regardless of shape, dogs
is dogs. And dogs is wolves. You can find a species appropriate
diet that works for your dog. End of story.

But were I live there
> isn't a whole lot. I can get the hen, but I have no idea were to
get
> quail.
*****
Where do you live?

Can anyone point me to a website or where I can buy this.
*****
You could Google "processed quail" or "whole quail" and let us know
what you find out. Almost all the links that people post were found
by someone at some point by Googling a product. I buy processed
quail from a local meatwholesaler, at several Asian markets, and at
least two supermarkets. What varies is the price.

You could also join CarnivoreFeed-Supplier and post your needs
there. Be sure you put your location in the subject line!

There was a
> site that had tiny baby chicks 1 to 3 days old frozen and I
thought
> about that for my cats. Maybe warm them on a heating pad until
they
> are body temp then feed it to them whole.
*****
Just let them sit until they reach room temp. No need to hasten the
warming process. Planning ahead is all it takes.

> I tried chicken with them but they won't eat the bones.
*****
Chicken bones aren't wild bird and mouse bones. I start off by
smashing the bones (my new kitten--theoretically three months but I
think he's younger--put away a smashed chicken neck last night and
this morning did immediate and irrevocable damage to a smashed half
quail), then gradually introduce wholer and tougher bones as jaw
strength and competency grow. My four year old cat--rawfed for all
but her first three months on this moral coil--is murder on chicken
wings and legs, but will usually leave the long bone uneaten
(although she eats both ends). She's had time and experience and
your cats can get there, too.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Deer bones
Posted by: "Joni" naturalbeautyandnutrition@yahoo.com naturalbeautyandnutrition
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:19 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>

> I don't know who this person may be (although if you were to
mention
> the name I might be familiar with it)

Shirley's Wellness Cafe I think is the one I found years ago. But not
for sure, it just looked like the one I had learned about the raw
diet from, and her name rang a bell. If this is the one, she has
changed a lot of stuff since then. But the same message for the most
part is still there.
I am raw to this diet thing for the most part lol (no pun intended)

> I doubt there's anyone on this list who would intentionally direct
> you to options that will hurt your dog.

I know that for sure, that is why I ask here for advice. I really do
trust everyone here. We all want the same thing, healthy animals.

> *****
> Where do you live?
I live in WI, not far from Turtle Lake. But I only have a couple
stores I can buy from. I don't know of anyone around here that would
have what I am looking for and a price I can afford.

> *****
> You could Google "processed quail" or "whole quail" and let us know

I have been looking and found a few sites. But there price is high
and shipping is so much it is so hard to come up with that kind of
money. But another problem is I don't want the bird head etc. I just
want it cut up like a chicken you get in the store with all the
extras included.

> You could also join CarnivoreFeed-Supplier and post your needs
> there. Be sure you put your location in the subject line!

I am going to look into that. Thanks so much for that info. I will
try anything at least once and see what happends.

> Chicken bones aren't wild bird and mouse bones. I start off by
> smashing the bones (my new kitten--theoretically three months but I
> think he's younger--put away a smashed chicken neck last night and
> this morning did immediate and irrevocable damage to a smashed half
> quail), then gradually introduce wholer and tougher bones as jaw
> strength and competency grow. My four year old cat--rawfed for all
> but her first three months on this moral coil--is murder on chicken
> wings and legs, but will usually leave the long bone uneaten
> (although she eats both ends). She's had time and experience and
> your cats can get there, too.
> Chris O

This info is helpful Chris. I never thought of that. Because your
right they eat the mice and birds they catch with no problems.

I am learning allot on the forum. And will try to do all the things I
am learning as best I can.

Thanks again,
Joni

Messages in this topic (12)
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9.1. Re: Liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:50 pm ((PST))

"Penny (Nickles) Parker" <loverladymaggiemae@...> wrote:
>
> I'm Wondering if it is a breed thing.
******
There's little more to a breed than a breeder's efforts. Inside, dogs
is dogs.

Perhaps the way you care for your Chi has taught it to expect, nay--
demand--special treatment? Have you tried liver from other critters?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (100)
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10.1. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:15 pm ((PST))

>Obviously, the Boxer is still growing. Currently weighs about 60lbs. Should i be feeding it the"regular" 3% of its weight or should i be feeding a bit more since its still growing and gradually increase as its weight increases?

Hi,Ceasar.If I remember right,puppy gets fed 10% of adult estimated weight and fed 3 times orso throughout the day.

and for adult dog,they gets fed 2-3% of ideal weight 1-2 times a day.

but % is just astarting guideline so,it changes depending on activity level of each indivisual dog.

My dog is 2 year old and,I switched her diet about 6 months ago,and I did not feed puppy feeding so,I may have remembered wrong info.Hopefully,someone who actually fed puppy could chime in.

> Also, should i let it tear apart its own meat or should i cut into 1/4lb pieces?

But Boxer is60lb now right? My dog is 34lb,and getting 10oz roughly per day with 2% daily intake,but boxer getting 4oz meat per meal????

It is not right...

Even if 60lb was ideal weight,boxer weigh 60lb(if adult) should be fed 1.8lb daily..with 3% intake.

This boxer is still growing,you writing here,so,ideal weight must be more than 60lb andthat means,this dog should gets fed more than 1.8lb per day.

Suppose,60lb was ideal weight of adult dog,here,and suppose this one should get fed 1.8lb here. Now,if you feed 2 times a day feeding,you can feed 1lb per meal uncut and let your dog work out on food.1/4lb meal seems way too little.I do not think you need to cut into 1inch cube or anything when you feed. Let yourdog work on food.

Only when you feed new protin source, it could be like little bit of newprotin meat,andmostly old protin meat,and gradually work out to 1lb of new protin meat to be fed per meal for example,and in that case,when you just start feeding new meat,then,that piece could be smaller and, dog would either swallow whole due small pieces or crunch crunch swallow.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (42)
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11a. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "Nora Lenz" nmlenz@speakeasy.net rawnora
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:36 pm ((PST))

Hi Mike,
I just wanted to comment a bit more on the vomiting of yellow bile,
which my dog used to do regularly, even after being raw fed for many
years. I desperately sought advice from veteran raw feeders and all I
was ever told was that I needed to feed more often. I finally figured
out the problem on my own, and resolved it, after much thought and
research. Bile's function in the body is to break down fats, and when
a dog is over-fed fats, the body is forced to produce more of it than
it normally would. When a dog anticipates a meal, bile is secreted in
preparation for digestion. It enters the stomach, where it would
normally mix with food. When there is no food present, bile irritates
the stomach lining and the body's response is to get rid of it hastily
via vomiting. The answer isn ot to keep food in the stomach so the
bile always has something to do, but to get the dog on a low-fat diet
so that the body will stop producing so much bile. My dog used to
vomit bile almost everyday and it probably took a year or more on a
low fat diet before it stopped completely, but now he *never* vomits
bile. I had to cut WAY back on his fat consumption, to the point of
feeding very low fat meats -- quail, venison, game hens, all trimmed.
All of the other symptoms he used to experience have gone away too,
so I think fat is responsible for a lot of problems that dogs
experience on the raw diet.

Best wishes,
Nora
UltimateK-9Health@yahoogroups.com

Messages in this topic (8)
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11b. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:48 pm ((PST))

Dear Nora,

Well said! I am a chiropractor and you could not of said it more appropriately. You gave the science and the raw feeding rule is 10% fat- no more.

Sincerely,

Howard

Nora Lenz <nmlenz@speakeasy.net> wrote:
Hi Mike,
I just wanted to comment a bit more on the vomiting of yellow bile,
which my dog used to do regularly, even after being raw fed for many
years. I desperately sought advice from veteran raw feeders and all I
was ever told was that I needed to feed more often. I finally figured
out the problem on my own, and resolved it, after much thought and
research. Bile's function in the body is to break down fats, and when
a dog is over-fed fats, the body is forced to produce more of it than
it normally would. When a dog anticipates a meal, bile is secreted in
preparation for digestion. It enters the stomach, where it would
normally mix with food. When there is no food present, bile irritates
the stomach lining and the body's response is to get rid of it hastily
via vomiting. The answer isn ot to keep food in the stomach so the
bile always has something to do, but to get the dog on a low-fat diet
so that the body will stop producing so much bile. My dog used to
vomit bile almost everyday and it probably took a year or more on a
low fat diet before it stopped completely, but now he *never* vomits
bile. I had to cut WAY back on his fat consumption, to the point of
feeding very low fat meats -- quail, venison, game hens, all trimmed.
All of the other symptoms he used to experience have gone away too,
so I think fat is responsible for a lot of problems that dogs
experience on the raw diet.

Best wishes,
Nora
UltimateK-9Health@yahoogroups.com

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Messages in this topic (8)
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11c. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:57 pm ((PST))

"Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@...> wrote:
>The answer isn ot to keep food in the stomach so the
> bile always has something to do, but to get the dog on a low-fat diet
> so that the body will stop producing so much bile.
*****
I would argue that a healthy dog can indeed consume quite a bit of
fat. The dog has two and only two bricks in its nutritional pyramid:
protein and fat. It would be a nutritional mistake to limit a dog's
intake to a "low fat" diet.

If a dog consistently has bile problems that are not otherwise related
to the clock, I'd say it's time to suss out what else may be going
on. Fat in and of itself is not the bad guy with bile, just as fat in
and of itself is not responsible for pancreatitis. Fat in and of
itself isn't even responsible for excess weight.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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11d. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:00 pm ((PST))

Howard Salob <itiskismet1968@...> wrote:
>the raw feeding rule is 10% fat- no more.
*****
Huh?
Who says?
As far as I know, there is no specific designation for fat. There is
10% organ meat of which half can be liver; there is 10%-l5% edible
bone; there is 75%-80% meat which includes fat, skin, fur, hair and
connective tissue as well as flesh: nothing about 10% fat.

Might you please furnish a link or two?
Thanks.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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12. puppy constipated
Posted by: "vickies_28" vickies_28@yahoo.com vickies_28
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:19 pm ((PST))

Hi everybody
I have an 8 mo old puppy on raw for about 3 months. Now, he is
constipated, hasn't gottten any poo for 2 days straight. I didn't feed
him any bone for the past 5 days at all. lately been beef and liver.
He doesn't seem to be sick or upset or anything. What do I do? Should
I worry? I gave him yogurt today in the morning - still nothing.Liver
which is supposed to produce loser stools -= nothing.
Any advice?

Thank you
Vickie

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12277

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: problems on raw food
From: katkellm

2a. Re: Feeding Chihuahuas
From: Cheryl Younesi

3a. Vomit
From: mmc2315
3b. Re: Vomit
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: first day with the new pup!
From: katkellm

5. Re: first day with new pup
From: Michael Moore

6.1. Re: Liver
From: Penny (Nickles) Parker

7a. What Am I Doing Wrong?
From: totaly_his
7b. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
From: katkellm
7c. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
From: Tina Berry
7d. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
From: totaly_his

8.1. Re: Free turkey half - Washington DC area
From: Elizabeth Hackley

9a. Re: Heartburn (?)
From: jennifer_hell

10a. skin problems for pomeranian
From: Ashley Myers
10b. Re: skin problems for pomeranian
From: Casey Post

11a. Stunned
From: rbmc1231937
11b. Re: Stunned
From: mmc2315
11c. Re: Stunned
From: Anntiga@aol.com
11d. Re: Stunned
From: Sandee Lee
11e. Re: Stunned
From: mikkeny
11f. Re: Stunned
From: Tina Berry

12.1. New to list
From: hmize1

13a. Re: Feeding chicken
From: Cheryl Younesi

14.1. Re: Feeding Pork
From: cesar valdez

15. 7 week puppy with diarrhea
From: barrettsmadison

Messages
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1a. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:36 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mbrown33333" <mbrown33333@...> wrote:
>
> started my staffy ruby on raw 8 days ago and after a few days on
> chicken she went of her food and started eating grass and later that
> day she went for a toilet and a sloppy mess exploded out of her back
> end

Hi Mike,
Loose stools usually come from a couple of things for new to raw dogs.
First, too much food. So, make sure that you are not feeding her
more than 2% of her ideal weight. Second, too much fat. For most
dogs chicken doesn't have too much fat, but you might have to start
out doing a little trimming. I would remove the fat and the skin from
her chicken for a while. Assuming that all you fed for these 8 days
was chicken, too much new food should not come into play. If you have
been adding other proteins, however, that could be a problem.

> Do i keep her off food for another 24hrs and any idear as to what to
> feed her with when i start again ...

The yellow vomit was her tummy gearing up for a meal that never came.
When the juices didn't have a job to do, they did the appropriate
thing and came up. Messy, i know, but probably not an issue. If this
were my dog, i would start her back with a bone in chicken breast with
the fat and the skin removed. I would feed her smaller more frequent
meals today and see how she does. Just make sure not to feed more
food, just more often. HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Feeding Chihuahuas
Posted by: "Cheryl Younesi" CYounesi@mac.com cyounesi
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:36 am ((PST))

My smallest Chi, -4 pounds, eats chicken wings, turkey necks, chicken
feet (for a treat), beef w/o bones yet, turkey w/o bones yet (only
because I haven't purchased with bones yet). My largest Chi, 6 pounds,
is a new rescue (adoption) and she won't even look at raw, (went 4 days
without eating) so we are starting her out slowly, finally got her to
eat some of it cooked w/o bone (I know, I know!) with a little cottage
cheese. Hopefully I can have her switched over successfully soon! I'm
relatively new at this and a slow starter!
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Vomit
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:09 am ((PST))

Our little Cairn terrier mix threw up his raw meal yesterday about an hour after eating. We
started raw about 2 weeks ago, and he has only had parts of chicken quarters so far. We
have not introduced other proteins yet, and are holding off on organs.

I wasn't worried because I've read a lot (!!!) of posts where dogs vomit (thanks for
sharing!). Dh and the kids were quite concerned because the dog continued to vomit, 3-4
more times during the evening, and they reported he was clearly not feeling well (just
wanted to curl up on his bed, didn't want to play).

I picked up his regurgitated meal before I went to work and threw it out. No one fed him
anymore that evening. We plan to fed him his regular meal later today. BTW, he is happy
and perky this morning.

For next time (I assume there will be a next time), would you suggest I leave the
regurgitated meal out for him or get rid of it? How bad does the vomiting need to be to
give slippery elm bark powder?

Dh was worried the raw food was making the dog sick, and I tried to explain that I've read
a lot of posts on vomiting, and it could be part of the adjustment period, or maybe
something just upset his stomach. Vomit happens.

Okay, I think that about covers it. The family wanted me to post so I can report back. :)

Thanks,

Michelle

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Vomit
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:03 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mmc2315" <m.chelap@...> wrote:
>
> Our little Cairn terrier mix threw up his raw meal yesterday
> about an hour after eating.

Yeah, your right. Dogs vomit. One vomit in 2 weeks is really no
big deal. It's part of the learning process. Learning for both the
dog and the humans. I suggest feeding meals that are a little
smaller for a little while.

I would leave the vomit out for about 5 or 10 minutes to see if the
dog is interested in re-eating it. After that, I would pick it up.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: first day with the new pup!
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:09 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ben" <ben1721@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone! My husband and I picked up our 8 1/2 week old
> Newfoundland pup today and have successfully fed him his first raw
> meal!

Hi Rachel,
Congratulations on your new puppy and on your first raw fed meal. Way
to go.

> Would it be best to feed him 3 or 4 times/day?
I would suggest that you start feeding him 3 times a day. I don't
think a fourth meal is necessary for a puppy that is successful
digesting raw. If his tummy tells you different, than add a fourth
meal.

> I've noticed that many people mention
> feeding beef heart as a source of meaty meat. We can get pork heart
> for about .20/lb less than the cost of beef heart... is one superior
> to the other? or is it OK to go for the pork?

I don't think that one is superior to the other because both are a
part of a critter and offer variety in terms of protein sources. Both
make good meaty meat meals or add a little meat to a bone heavy meal.
Beef heart might have more value, to me, in the respect that of all
the cuts of beef that you can buy at the store, heart is the only part
i can afford to buy without breaking the bank. Send us puppy updates.
KathyM

Messages in this topic (2)
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5. Re: first day with new pup
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:10 am ((PST))

>>Would it be best to feed him 3 or 4 times/day? <<

Rachel, Ben & Moose -- FWIW, I fed my Corgi puppies (*much* smaller than Moose the Newfie) four times daily until the age of three months, then three times daily until four months of age, and now at six mos., they are eating twice daily. Their tummies can't hold as much food when they're young but your guy will grow up quickly.

>>We plan to stick with chicken only for at least the first week, and then to gradually
introduce other protein sources.<<

Good plan, and after that first week, you can probably introduce a variety of new foods. Puppies do really well with a wide variety of foods. Within two weeks, my litter (at seven weeks) had eaten pork, venison, elk, rabbit, chicken, turkey, beef, lamb and fish.

>> I've noticed that many people mention feeding beef heart as a source of meaty meat. We can get pork heart for about .20/lb less than the cost of beef heart... is one superior to the other? or is it OK to go for the pork? <<

Heart is heart, IMO. Beef heart is the only reasonably priced beef around here, so that's why I feed it liberally. I do feed a lot of pork -- shoulder roasts, etc., but pork is terrific, IMO and that of my dogs.

-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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6.1. Re: Liver
Posted by: "Penny (Nickles) Parker" loverladymaggiemae@yahoo.com loverladymaggiemae
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:10 am ((PST))

I'm Wondering if it is a breed thing. All of my (and foster) Cavaliers
love Liver. So do the English Toy Spaniels. But my Chihuahua won't
touch it any way shape or form. Even frozen she won't even come near
it when I am handing it out as a treat. All the others love it thawed
and slurpy Go figure!
Penny & The Menagerie

Messages in this topic (99)
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7a. What Am I Doing Wrong?
Posted by: "totaly_his" totaly_his@yahoo.com totaly_his
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:52 am ((PST))

Well, I am in week 5 of rawfeeding my 6 year old jackrussell. I have studied the archives but
still need assistance. My girl has had chicken, beef, and a few organs. I give her a heart,
gizzard or liver maybe once a week and only 2 pieces. It seems that for the most part, my
dog almost always has loose stools and it smells horrible. I have read that the poop of raw
fed dogs don't smell bad. She has had a few accidents in the house before I could get her
outside. I am finding it difficult trying to balance the diet (more bone when stools are loose
versus more meat when constipated). I am trying to make this as simple as I can but I don't
like that she has loose stools all the time. She is in the yard and squats and squats and
squats trying "finish"her job. WHAT AM I DOING WRONG! ! Is it suppose to be this way? I only
introduced beef after week 3 because she still had diarrhea. I haven't even tried to introduce
any other proteins because she hasn't done well up to this point. Should I just keep her on
chicken until her stools are normal? Please instruct me on what changes I need to make. I
really am trying to make this easy and simple but right now....it's everything BUT that.
Jackie

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:19 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "totaly_his" <totaly_his@...> wrote:
>
Is it suppose to be this way? I only
> introduced beef after week 3 because she still had diarrhea.

Hi Jackie,
No, it isn't suppose to be this way. I think we should back up to the
3 weeks on chicken where you tell us she still had loose stools. Are
you sure that you only fed her 2% of her ideal weight? I know that
you only gave 2 pieces of liver, heart, gizzard once a week, but it
might have been too much too early on for your dog. Was she going
normally before the liver was fed because, imo, you probably
introduced the liver too soon into the diet? I would probably not
feed any beef at this point because beef bones tend to not be
completely edible for dogs, especially little ones, and i would
imagine that it would be hard to balance out the diet using beef.
Just thought, are you trying to balance out the beef diet with chicken
bones? Mixing proteins probably isn't a good idea for right now
either. I guess based on what i know, i would feed a bone in chicken
breast with the skin and fat removed. I would make sure i am feeding
slightly under the 2% of her ideal weight mark, rather than slightly
over for now. I would not offer any liver or heart or gizzard at all
for a while. That could be the problem right there. I would feed
smaller and more frequent meals to judge her progress and make it
easier on the system. Just feed more meals, not more food. HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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7c. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:19 am ((PST))

"I am trying to make this as simple as I can but I don't like that she has
loose stools all the time. She is in the yard and squats and squats and
squats trying "finish"her job. WHAT AM I DOING WRONG!"

You are doing great!!! However, I would go back to one meat source to see
if the loose stools stop, keeping the 10% bone in the diet. Did she get
loose stools after introducing new meats? or organs? if so, back off on the
organs and go back to one meat source. Some dogs take longer to adjust and
can only handle little organs in the beginning.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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7d. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
Posted by: "totaly_his" totaly_his@yahoo.com totaly_his
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:49 am ((PST))

Did she get
> loose stools after introducing new meats? or organs? if so, back off
on the organs and go back to one meat source.

Tina,
She did fine as long as she was on JUST chicken w/bone. But after 3
weeks I slowly added some stew beef with the chicken as some in this
forum suggested in the files. I have always had some chicken w/bones
with a small amount of beef for her meals, never just a beef meal yet.
Hearts.liver and gizzards were added once a week and only 1 or 2
pieces. I haven't even tried fish, pork, etc. yet. My girl weighs 30
lbs. and I feed her 2-3 pieces of bonein chicken w/ beef once a day. I
will take your suggestion and feed her 1 or 2 pieces of chicken twice a
day. Would that be right? Thanks for your help. Jackie

Messages in this topic (4)
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8.1. Re: Free turkey half - Washington DC area
Posted by: "Elizabeth Hackley" twodobemom@yahoo.com twodobemom
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:03 am ((PST))

would your farmer be interested in more customers? I
have a butcher (has a business on side) that delivers
to my house but I'm finding it more and more difficult
to get my meat delivered when I need it.

Elizabeth Hackley, Flicka, Gunther Guinness with Loki & Max (waiting at the bridge)

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Messages in this topic (27)
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9a. Re: Heartburn (?)
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:43 am ((PST))

Anyone? I ordered Slippery Elm now. Hope that will solve it?

Jennifer

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:
>
> I hope that is the correct term in English, I looked it up, another
> term would be pyrosis.
> What can I do to help Mandy when she's experiencing heartburn?

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. skin problems for pomeranian
Posted by: "Ashley Myers" miragehairsalon@yahoo.com miragehairsalon
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:21 am ((PST))

Is anyone out there experienced with having a pom with skin issues. I was hoping a raw diet would help but she's still oily, smelly and itchy. (just 3-4 days after being groomed too!) I've given her fish oil, to try to aleviate any dryness that might be contributing to her itching.I'm really at a loss.
Thanks
Kitty

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Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: skin problems for pomeranian
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:25 am ((PST))

> Is anyone out there experienced with having a pom with skin issues. I was
> hoping a raw diet would help but she's still oily, smelly and itchy. (just
> 3-4 days after being groomed too!) I've given her fish oil, to try to
> aleviate any dryness that might be contributing to her itching.I'm really
> at a loss.

Kitty,

Feeding raw will help issues that are diet-related, but unfortunately it is
not a cure-all.

Pomeranians are subject to a number of skin diseases, including Sebaceous
Adenitis (which is what jumped to mind when you said, "oily, smelly, and
itchy").

Time for a vet check to find the true cause of what's going on and if it's
an autoimmune disease. Good luck.

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Stunned
Posted by: "rbmc1231937" rbmc1231937@yahoo.com rbmc1231937
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:21 am ((PST))

Reily my 97 lb had blood work don.All is well, but he is low on
Protein???? Reily is on raw for a year, . but because he is97 lb, and
not active I am feeding one Pound a day. My question is , How do i
bring his protin level up. He is geting a Egg a day.Do I feed more??
The vet wants me to add high protein kibble to his meat. Ja . and raw
is not good at all, because of salmonella. and so on. can you help.
Barb&Reily

Messages in this topic (6)
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11b. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:58 am ((PST))

"rbmc1231937" wrote:

> but because he is97 lb, and
> not active I am feeding one Pound a day.

What is his ideal weight? Is he losing weight, gaining, or maintaining?

Michelle

Messages in this topic (6)
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11c. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "Anntiga@aol.com" Anntiga@aol.com anntiga
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:58 am ((PST))

Reily should be getting a minimum of 2 pounds of raw meat and bones a day.
Dogs are supposed to be fed two percent (.02) to three percent (.03) of the
their ideal adult body weight.

.02 times 97 equals 1.94. .03 times 97 equals 2.91. Reily should be
getting 1.94 to 2.91 pounds of RMBs a day.

Remember that Reily should be getting 80% raw meat (organ meats not
included), 10% raw bone covered in raw meat, and 10% organ meats like liver.

My vets are anti raw also. They worry that Norman, my 54 pound Portuguese
Water dog (PWD) is not getting enough carbohydrates.

We just agree to disagree about raw feeding.

Good luck!

Ann
Norman (PWD)
San Francisco Peninsula, CA

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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11d. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:01 am ((PST))

Ughhh...this is one the reasons I generally recommend not telling our vets
we feed a raw diet! They can't look beyond that to find a cause for
disease, abnormal bloodwork, etc.

He should be ashamed of himself. Total protein in the blood is indicative
of some other systemic issue and not related to diet one bit!

For info about deciphering bloodwork....
http://www.dogaware.com/misc.html#bloodtest

This quote is from one of those sites....
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/lab.asp
Total protein includes albumin and larger proteins called globulins.
Included in the globulins are antibodies which are protein molecules. Total
protein can be increased if the dog or cat is dehydrated or if the pet's
immune system is being stimulated to produce large amounts of antibody.
Total protein is decreased in the same situations which reduce albumin or if
the pet has an abnormal immune system and cannot produce antibodies.

If the value is low enough to cause concern, you might want to have the
levels run again, making certain the dog has been fasting for at least 8
hours, and then pursue this if the levels are still low. If your current
vet can't look beyond diet and treat your dog, you need a new one!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "rbmc1231937" <rbmc1231937@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (6)
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11e. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "mikkeny" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:29 am ((PST))

> He should be ashamed of himself. Total protein in the blood is
indicative
> of some other systemic issue and not related to diet one bit!

************************

I knew that I could count on Sandee to point this out!

Why a vet would link blood protein levels to dietary protein in this
instance is beyond me...the idea of adding a high protein kibble,
well, that's a new one, anyway! <g> Vets are usually all "raw is too
much protein", but this one thinks that raw is too little protein!
Hey, points for novelty, anyway.

Casey

Messages in this topic (6)
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11f. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:38 am ((PST))

Baron is 97lbs and he gets 1 - 1.5 per day depending on how he looks. He's
3 yrs old. As far as I know, the blood work is slightly different on a raw
fed dog vs kibble (as far as what is supposed to be normal) so I would just
keep doing what you're doing if he looks good, feels good, etc.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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12.1. New to list
Posted by: "hmize1" hmize1@yahoo.com hmize1
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:58 am ((PST))

Hi everyone,
I've been reading archives and plan to lurk for a while. I have two
English Mastiffs - Gus is 6 and about 180#'s, Bucky is 5 and about
130#'s. They are small for their breed but perfect in most other
ways. :)

I'm interested in feeding raw because Bucky has some itchy skin type
allergies, plus we are always battling ear goo (yeast) and doggy
breath from plaque on their teeth. They also love to chew, so I'm
sure they'd enjoy going to town on a chicken.

I am curious about the cost of feeding raw foods. We currently spend
about $60/month on dry food. If I were to feed them only whole
chickens, that would be over $100/month (figuring 2% of their weight
and $0.59/pound on sale). There may be cheaper sources, but I know
they shouldn't have exclusively chicken so that may cost more.

Does that seem like a reasonable estimate? I know we'll save money
on medication, ear cleaner, teeth cleaning, etc. Just trying to get
a sense for monthly cost.

Thanks!
Heather

Messages in this topic (92)
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13a. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Cheryl Younesi" CYounesi@mac.com cyounesi
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:59 am ((PST))

Lora,
That was an extremely interesting and helpful article! Thanks for it!
It really helped me understand the Omega 3's and 6's better!
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (10)
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14.1. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "cesar valdez" chorizo4662@yahoo.com chorizo4662
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:07 am ((PST))

Finally convinced my girlfriend to let me put both her
dogs (6mon old Boxer/3yr old Old English Bulldog) on
raw. I put my 1.5yr old Pitbull on raw about 6-8mon
ago. Obviously, the Boxer is still growing. Currently
weighs about 60lbs. Should i be feeding it the
"regular" 3% of its weight or should i be feeding a
bit more since its still growing and gradually
increase as its weight increases? Also, should i let
it tear apart its own meat or should i cut into 1/4lb
pieces? Those it usually chews a few times and then
swallows them whole after a few chews. Ill chop
chicken leg/thigh 1/4's into 3 pieces and he tears
them up from there. The transition has been a great
one. NO vomiting with the exeption of 1 time from the
Bulldog because it ate some veal with ALOT of fat on
it. Other than that, NO problems at all. Stools are
still a bit runny because of the transition from
kibble to meat. Any help with this is greatly
appreciated! Everyone have a great day.

Cesar

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Messages in this topic (41)
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15. 7 week puppy with diarrhea
Posted by: "barrettsmadison" barrettsark@verizon.net barrettsmadison
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:38 am ((PST))

Hi everyone I could really use some help. My 7 week old newfoundland
puppy has diarrhea. It has been on and off for over a week now. He
was Dewormed twice so far. We are off to the vets this after noon
with a stool sample. I just feel like they are going to blame the raw
food. And this is my first time feeding a puppy raw. He is on only
Chicken some grounded but mostly wings and necks right now I have
been splitting the feeding up 4 X a day.
We any thing would help thank you
Jessica

Messages in this topic (1)
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