Feed Pets Raw Food

Thursday, January 3, 2008

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12456

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: spricketysprock

2a. Re: Dogs eating after each other a problem or concern ???
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Was: new member needs help getting started on raw/ Now :...
From: scarebetty

4.1. Help
From: Donna subramanian
4.2. Re: Help
From: Sandee Lee
4.3. Re: Help
From: Robert Ekendahl
4.4. Re: Help
From: Casey Post

5a. Re: vegetation happens
From: Robert Ekendahl

6a. Re: chicken with the bones too?
From: Robert Ekendahl
6b. Re: chicken with the bones too?
From: Yasuko herron

7a. Re: books
From: Giselle
7b. Re: books
From: Yasuko herron
7c. Re: books
From: carnesbill

8a. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Chia

9a. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
From: vickies_28

10a. Re: Allergy
From: Yasuko herron
10b. Re: Allergy
From: carnesbill

11a. worried
From: scarebetty
11b. Re: worried
From: Sandee Lee
11c. Re: worried
From: Casey Post

12a. Re: Pork ear
From: Yasuko herron

13a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: Susano

14a. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
From: certaintragedies

15. Bought today..
From: Betty

16a. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
From: jaygaughan


Messages
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1a. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:20 pm ((PST))


>
> Oh they do have a Contact Us for email. I usually send each such site
> that comes across my radar a little note (my perversion). In this
> case I sent the following:
> --------------------------------------------

I'm curious to read their response!

Jess & Toby

Messages in this topic (17)
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2a. Re: Dogs eating after each other a problem or concern ???
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:21 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rosey031801" <rosey031801@...>
wrote:
>
> Should I go out and pick up the leftovers...I don't want to have
> to do that. Any advice?

I would rather my dogs not share their food simply because it's easier
to keep up with how much each is eating and controlling the volume. I
wouldn't worry about spreading any disease or infection. It's really
your choice.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Was: new member needs help getting started on raw/ Now :...
Posted by: "scarebetty" scarebetty@yahoo.com scarebetty
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:21 pm ((PST))

-
>
> Hi Trish,
> Deer is a perfect food as is. There is no reason to add anything to
> it. Just remember the 5% liver and 5% other organs and you should be
> good to go. I adopted my smallest dog as a puppy. I always wanted an
> aussie, and i found some "aussie x" puppies at a shelter. Now, a
> couple of years later, Addie actually looks much more like a blue
> merle bc than an aussie. My point is that even though she is my
> smallest dog, the head, leg, rib, neck, ..deer bones covered with meat
> are edible for her. KathyM

>
I was just reading the new posts and came across this one on deer and
I have a question that is related to deer. My dogs eat deer legs a
lot during hunting season. Occasionally they will eat the whole thing
before I get whats left of the bone picked up. They digest the bone
just fine, but will throw up the deer hooves. Most of the time the
hooves come back up just like they look on the deer, however, the last
time that my dog who has been on raw about 8 mo. threw up hooves that
looked like they had been bleached. Of course, the hooves are in very
yellow fluid, which I understand that that is the bile from trying to
digest the hooves. I'm just wondering what the hooves are made of
that makes them so hard to digest.
Thanks,
Betty

Messages in this topic (5)
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4.1. Help
Posted by: "Donna subramanian" drgs562000@yahoo.com drgs562000
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:31 pm ((PST))

Hi,
i am new and in an argument with my vet. She says there is too much cholesterol in the commercial raw foods i feed and she wants me to change one of my bullies to-gasp- low fat kibble. i will not. Does anyone have the formula for converting wet to dry matter? i would like to show my vet-in a way i hope she understands- that my food does not contain too much fat. i use Bravo raw and use all varieties, but i do limit beef, lamb and duck because they are higher in fat. Anyhow, if someone could send me the formula, i would be grateful. Donna


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Messages in this topic (68)
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4.2. Re: Help
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:02 pm ((PST))

Commercial raw foods are not appropriate for many reasons...but too much
cholesterol? Ask her to back that up with some facts.

Protein and fat are the mainstays of a carnivore's diet. If you limit those
ingredients, what are they replaced with?

Ignore the vet, feed your dog appropriately...that means lots of red meat
and fat, a tiny bit of edible bone and organs, all whole rather than
ground...and no veggies.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Donna subramanian" <drgs562000@yahoo.com>
> i am new and in an argument with my vet. She says there is too much
cholesterol in the commercial raw foods i feed and she wants me to change
one of my bullies to-gasp- low fat kibble. i will not. Does anyone have the
formula for converting wet to dry matter? i would like to show my vet-in a
way i hope she understands- that my food does not contain too much fat. i
use Bravo raw and use all varieties, but i do limit beef, lamb and duck
because they are higher in fat. Anyhow, if someone could send me the
formula, i would be grateful. Donna

Messages in this topic (68)
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4.3. Re: Help
Posted by: "Robert Ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:16 pm ((PST))

Ok,

Don't worry about cholesterol. Period.
First cholesterol eaten will not significantly add to your cholesterol
value as it's processed in your stomach.
Secondly the proof that cholesterol in your blood matters at all is
based on very little scientific proof to say the least.

If you want to learn more buy the great book "good calories, bad
calories" by Taube (on amazon for example)
It also talk about how important fat and proteins really are. Sure the
books addresses humans but I'm sure the same holds true for carnivores
in general.

/Robert Ekendahl

Messages in this topic (68)
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4.4. Re: Help
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:33 pm ((PST))


>>my vet. She says there is too much cholesterol in the commercial raw foods
>>i feed and she wants me to change one of my bullies to-gasp- low fat
>>kibble.


Donna,

I'm curious - did the vet run a blood test on this dog and his cholesterol
is high?

Because if the answer is "yes", then you absolutely need to follow this up
with a full six panel test for hypothyroidism.

You see, high cholesterol on canine blood work is often a symptom of poor
thyroid function and that has NOTHING to do with diet. Hypothyroidism is
nothing to fool around with either as it can cause not only health problems,
but also behavior changes (fear, aggression, sound sensitivity, OCD, etc.).

Casey


Messages in this topic (68)
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5a. Re: vegetation happens
Posted by: "Robert Ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:44 pm ((PST))

Thanks for the story, new dog/cat stories warms my hart too. I switched
all my pets on January 1st as well. They, 2 white dogs, one cat love it!
Never will I feed kibble again to any family member in my house!

And just wait until you feed your dog something meatier! Today I fed
both my kids a Turkey Drumstick. My mature dog took more then 20 minutes
to finish it, and I could tell he loved every minute of it; As a side
note my 14 month puppy finished the same sized leg in about 8 minutes
and looked jealously on while his brother took his time, I suspect he
will too learn to slow down. But what a difference from the 45 second
fast food meals of last year!

/Robert Ekendahl


Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: chicken with the bones too?
Posted by: "Robert Ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:44 pm ((PST))

Yes,

you feed bone and all raw (I know it felt strange to me too!). You might
be surprised who fast he will crush the bones and how much he will love.

To start, first guesstimate how much food per day your boy needs. It's
2-3% of ideal weight. So assuming 120 lbs is a lean dog he needs 2.4 lbs
or so of meat (and some digestible bones each day). Start with a single
source of protein, and people say chicken is relatively easy for your
dog to digest so it's a good start. Simply buy a small 2.4 lb whole
chicken and give the whole thing too him (remove the innards for now).
That's his food for tomorrow! If your dog should really be 90 lbs then
feed 1.8 lbs instead, and if so buy a large chicken and cut in half.

Oh! Do this right away as in tomorrow. It's a great start! Then keep
reading this site and after a week or so you might want to start mixing
in other proteins and maybe organs to his food.

This site is great support

Robert Ekendahl


Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: chicken with the bones too?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:16 pm ((PST))

>frozen so im not cooking it im giving him the raw chicken... right???

Hi,Mari. to get started,you go get a whole birds and that birds comes with giblet bag inside the cavaty. the bag contains,neck,heart,liver,gizzard. Put them in zip bag titling the bag as chicken Organ or something so that you know waht you put in there. Oh,for your info,herat and gizzard are considered muscle meat(boneless meat if you understand) nutritionary.

Then,freeze them til theday you decide to add them to meal gradually.

Now,you got the whole bird sitting in front of you without giblet bag. you know the estimated weight of that bird,right from price tag from store.So,you cut the whole bird to your dog's portion and bag them and keep only you need in fridge andrest goes to freezer.

I usually put in freezer bagand as I need,I pull it out andthawin frudge one day before feeding.

all poultry,I do the same way.

if thedog gets experienced and no tum prob,I probably can give whole bird and take it away when the dog stop eating it but I do not do that yet (I am on rawfeeding from May 07) especially if you just going to start out,I recommend to cut to portion andfeed andgradually increase the volume of one meal so that it is not going to upset the tummy.

I started off feeding 2 feeding per day. That way, meal is smaller than one feeding so,it is better for my dog I thought. When dog gets upset tummy,either you are feeding too much food at once or too much fat in meal or too much new thing too soon.so,observing yourdogs,you can tweak thefeeding amount or menu or how to serve etc.

My dog been on rawabout 8 months now and,she now gets big meal now and then ( I still take meal away when I think she had enough.I noticed she eats 1lb if I give her 30 minutes in average so,I can use that to assume when to take meal out. I try to give her more time gradually but,not giving free eating yet.Baby step for me.

After the big meal,I give small meal to conpensate for big meal amount.since I am not doing total gorge thing,so,I don't fast my dog yet. Maybe someday.

It is entertaining to see how my dog tackle 5lb goat leg using paws from this side or that side,how she tear meat off the bone,but, when you start out,you better off stay on baby step approach. Keep the fun for later,lol.


Anyway, you start off serving chicken and if it was well digested and poo was not runny or diarrhea and if you were comfortable,you move on to next step.

I myself put my dog on chicken 1 week first to ensure shedoes well on it and second week, I added smidge of chicken liver and main meal is still chicken;her meal was chicken andbit of chicken liver.

After 4 days or so later,since she did good on it,I moved on to Beef. So,she was on Beef with chicken liver.

After she did good on beef,I went to adding beef liver smidge and she did good on it.So,her meal waslike some days are beef with chicken liver(which she did ok on),and some day were beef with beef liver and I alternated liver variety between chicken and beef. Then,I went to Turkey. So,main is Turkey and now she gets sometimes,Turkey with chicken liver,some days she gets Turkey and beef liver.After that,I added beef kidney and shedid ok. So,when she gets beef liver,she got beef kidney too.

This is just me and you can choose the next protin but,at any time, make sure you add only one new thing to meal.

I then,visited all the protin I wanted to introduce,and backed to round 2.That round,I decided to feed how I want to serve menu so, I have patern to feed. At this moment,I feed her big meal now andthen,and when I do,I feed only one feeding and next couple ofdays are small small meal.The big meal I used to feed her is now backed to freezer for this week's big meal day. Don't worry about thaw and refreeze meat. They are ok.

If you wanted to look at my dog's menu,here is meal menu for one day of the next week.

Pork heart,Turkey gizzard,Tripe,Mackerral and Frog leg.

Gizzard and tripe are 2 side dishes for her.I don't feed big Tripe in meal. I give her Tripe ball;size of truffles if you will. I cannot get hunk of tripe but ground.so,when I received it,with painful smell around,with protected hand,I made tripe ballsandbagged them up. I then pull out the zip bag out oneday before the tripe sidedish meal andshe gets littlr Tripe balls,which makes her so jumpy and shelikes to lick inside out of the zip bagafter all ballsare used up in bag andallow her to lick it. smell of balls are torelatable that way at least for me.

But when I feed big,she gets no side dish,but one main thing. Thesedays,I keep pulling out Goat leg and that is all she gets on trhat day but I am thinking this time,I try Beef tail that is sleeping in freezer a while. I got it whole ox tail after asking the grocerystore meat guy so,it is good tip for you too;ask the meat guy if you had something you wanted in mind but all are sliced on shelf.They may have unsliced back the counter.

As for how much you feed,guideline is 2-3% of ideal weight depending on activity level.

If you put wording "new",I am guessing you get tonz of related past posts in search results on this list.

Good luck.

Remember, patient,be relax,no catering no coaxing no hovering,and baby step and you can do it!

yassy


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Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: books
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:06 pm ((PST))

Hi, Mari!
Books, we don't need no stinkin' books! ^_^

Really, everything you will ever need to know about feeding a raw species
appropriate whole prey model diet can be found on these websites;

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawlearning.com/supplementmyths.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist

and in this list's archives.
<http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist>
One to get you started;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> are there any good books out i can buy and get deep in this raw
> subject. i just need to see what he can eat what kind of menu i can
> set him up to budget his weekly needs. thanks everyone. mari
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (17)
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7b. Re: books
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:21 pm ((PST))

Since I readon WDJ that the book "Raw Meaty Bone" by Tom Landle is mostly about his battle against other vets so,I did not buy/read his book,but I changed my mind and,I bought it in Dec andreading it chapter by chapter.I think that the book also helps to understand better too.

Today,I was reading about cooked and raw meat chapter but,it is something newbie can benefit from reading that chapter.

All the links given by Gisell also helpstoo.I read them too.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (17)
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7c. Re: books
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:44 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lifted_trucks_21"
<lifted_trucks_21@...> wrote:
>
> are there any good books out i can buy and get deep in this raw
> subject. i just need to see what he can eat what kind of menu i can
> set him up to budget his weekly needs. thanks everyone. mari

The best book on raw feeding by far is "Work WOnders", by Dr. Tom
Lonsdale. You can get it on rawmeatybones.com. Just click on the
picture of the book on the first page.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (17)
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8a. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:20 pm ((PST))


Chia wrote:
>
> ### maybe we should start force feeding horses and cows raw meat...they
> must need the protein & fat? sheesh...
> Chia & Ricco

I actually often say that to people who start on the veg thing with me
and it's one of the more successful comments. Once people look at it
that way it makes more sense to them. Of course, if they're totally
stuck on the idea that a dog is an omnivore then it doesn't work :(

### I know, it's so ridiculous...you show me a carnivore whose jaw moves
side to side and I'll eat my words!

Chia & Ricco 'the carnivore' damnit! ;-))

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Messages in this topic (9)
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9a. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
Posted by: "vickies_28" vickies_28@yahoo.com vickies_28
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:42 pm ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.


Hi everyone
I am glad I saw this posting. I have a basset hound that is on raw
for over 5 mo. He's been itching like non stop for no apparent
reason. I do not see any bumps on him. But I do feed a lot of chiken,
since it's a good bone source and he digests it well. So I am
wondering if we are all getting the same problem from chicken. I
don't see any markings as to "enhanced" or whatever on the chicken I
buy.But I do buy the cheapest kind that I never eat myself.
Should I try to eliminate chiken and see what happens?
I don't have access to any other bone though.
Vickie


Messages in this topic (9)
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10a. Re: Allergy
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:43 pm ((PST))

>Pick out one protein source. It's not critical what it is but just feed one. For our example, lets use chicken.

Hi,Bill. I do not have allegy dog so,I do not need to do elimination diet,but theelimination diet method that I read in book like on WDJ was telling you to feed the novel protin source which dog hasnever had it before for 6 weeks and like you suggested,try adding other protin source and find culprit.

We still can use the protin source that dog hashad before?? I thought we couldn't.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (13)
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10b. Re: Allergy
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:13 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> We still can use the protin source that dog hashad before?? I
thought we couldn't.

Hi, Yassy,
It really doesn't make any difference what protein source you use as
long as you use just one for 2 months. If it's chicken, pork, or
some exotic animal it's ok. For 2 months nothing goes in the dog's
mouth that is not that protein source. Either the problem will go
away or it won't.

If it goes away, whatever protein source you are feeding is ok.
THEN you gradually add other back, one every 2 weeks to see what
happens. One protein source will probably cause the problem to
return.

If the problem remains with the first protein source then for 2
months feed anything you want to EXCEPT the original protein
source. Again, either the problem will go away or it won't. If it
goes away, the allergen is the original protein source. If the
problem remains, the dog may have an allergy but it isn't a food
allergy.

It sounds simple but feeding a dog one protein source for 2 months
isn't as easy as it sounds, particularly if you have other dogs that
aren't on the elimination diet.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (13)
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11a. worried
Posted by: "scarebetty" scarebetty@yahoo.com scarebetty
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:43 pm ((PST))

I have been feeding prey model diet for about 7 or 8 mo. Some friends
saw how good my dog looked and started feeding prey model a coupe of
months ago. I was so excited that they started feeding raw, now I'm
not so excited. One of their dogs just died all of a sudden. They
have no idea what happened. They just went out and found her dead.
Now I am having second thoughts as to whether it was something caused
by the bones. I know that anything can happen, but I was just
wondering if anyone that has been feeding raw for a long time has ever
had any of their dogs just die from the scary things that we are all
told about from naysayers, such as a perforated stomach, etc?

Betty

Messages in this topic (26)
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11b. Re: worried
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 9:07 pm ((PST))

Betty,

While this is a horrible tragedy, I don't know why you would even think this
has anything to do with diet. Appropriate diet does not kill dogs.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "scarebetty" <scarebetty@yahoo.com>

I have been feeding prey model diet for about 7 or 8 mo. Some friends
saw how good my dog looked and started feeding prey model a coupe of
months ago. I was so excited that they started feeding raw, now I'm
not so excited. One of their dogs just died all of a sudden. They
have no idea what happened. They just went out and found her dead.

Messages in this topic (26)
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11c. Re: worried
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 9:15 pm ((PST))

> One of their dogs just died all of a sudden. They
> have no idea what happened. They just went out and found her dead.

Betty,

Well, if that were my dog, I'd have a necropsy done just in case it was
poison or something that could pose a risk to the remaining dogs.


Casey

Messages in this topic (26)
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12a. Re: Pork ear
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:44 pm ((PST))

>pig ears. the ears are cartilage and skin -

Hi,since my dog haslimping history,I try to give some cartilidge item here and there but pork ear is good for joint as well if it is made with cartilidge?

I know treachea and poultry wing and chicken feet are good for joint though.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (7)
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13a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "Susano" tekritesue@yahoo.com tekritesue
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:46 pm ((PST))

I won't get into the veggies/no veggies debate, but I'll just agree
that pugs don't have an "I'm full" sensor. They want to eat all the
time. I don't think that it has too much to do with carbs. I think
that my pugs would explode if they could get enough food to do so.

I feed my three pugs one meal of raw meat late every afternoon (yes, I
should vary the time, but it's what works for us). No treats during
the day and a small baby carrot at night when the boys go into their
crates. They don't digest it, but it's a treat we gave our old Lhasa
at bedtime and it was just easier to include them in the ritual once
they realized what was going on.

I love giving them a meaty bone to play with because it takes them
such a long time to finish their meal. I have to watch that I don't
give them too much bone because it's so nice to see them having so
much fun. When they get liver or something else that they can slurp
down quickly, they wander around a bit looking for more. It's tempting
to give in, but I do as Chris O suggested you do and ignore the little
beggers. Yes, they think it's food time whenever I open the fridge,
but I just tell them to get lost. If they're being really annoying I
just make them leave the kitchen.

Congratulations on switching to raw, BTW!

Susan

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "divasdesignerstore"
<divasdesignerstore@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I am new here but have been feeding 5 pugs a raw diet for about 3
> years now. So here's my 2 cents on the subject. I think it may be a
> pug thing where they think they are hungry all day.

Messages in this topic (14)
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14a. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
Posted by: "certaintragedies" inaudibly@gmail.com certaintragedies
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:47 pm ((PST))

Thank you, to both Monica and Sandee. I read through all that and am
feeling slightly less worried now. I'm going to start the 10 year old
on raw feeding on Sunday for two weeks and see if there's any
improvement at all in her skin condition. Maybe if it's manageable and
all goes well I can switch the younger dog over too.

Any recommendations on what I should start her off with? I know no
organs yet and that chicken is a good way to start. Chicken leg
quarters? Wings? Do I throw the whole thing into her bowl or should I
chop it all up first?

-Melissa

Messages in this topic (12)
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15. Bought today..
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:13 pm ((PST))

I got some pork raw rib bones, and I cut at least 2 or 3 together and
froze most of them. There are several different names or kinds of rib
bones, 'back ribs' and the ones I bought..I can't even recall what
they are called now. Not the back ribs anyway. Are either ok?

I also bought a whole chicken and cut up into thighs, legs, breasts,
back, and wings, and it came with a neck and heart. I gave my Maltese
the meaty thigh bone today which he readily ate all up. Did you say he
can or can't have the meaty leg bones, neck, back? If I recall he can
have the back but it's not very meaty, and the neck (which makes me
nervous) and should I cut up the neck bones or just give as one piece?
And I have to go back to read what knuckle bones are again..since I
already forgot that too:( I'll go back and refresh my memory.

I found tripe, but didn't buy that. It's difficult deciding what to
try first. I know I can freeze all these things though for later. I'll
just keep refreshing my memory until it's stuck with me.

Prism

Messages in this topic (1)
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________________________________________________________________________

16a. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:13 pm ((PST))

It's 4 degrees here in CT now. Feeding outside is not fun.

Please send warm weather our way.

Jay


Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12455

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more/gorge/rest
From: Laurie Swanson
1b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more/gorge/rest
From: katkellm

2. Re: Now - free range v feed lot. was anti-raw website... curious as
From: Nanette

3a. Re: Was: new member needs help getting started on raw/ Now :...
From: katkellm

4a. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
From: Monica Hughes
4b. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
From: Monica Hughes

5a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: Sandee Lee

6a. Re: anti-raw website -- curious as to your thoughts?
From: Michael Moore
6b. Re: anti-raw website -- curious as to your thoughts?
From: costrowski75

7. Re: all poultry?
From: Michael Moore

8a. Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Evie
8b. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Sandee Lee
8c. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Andrea
8d. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: rosey031801
8e. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Denise Strother
8f. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Chia
8g. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Jamie Dolan
8h. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Pi

9a. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
From: Sherrel Leininger

10a. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
From: Pamela Picard

11a. Re: Refusal
From: Sarah
11b. Re: Refusal
From: Laurie Swanson

12. vegetation happens
From: Kate

13. chicken with the bones too?
From: lifted_trucks_21

14a. books
From: lifted_trucks_21


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more/gorge/rest
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:04 pm ((PST))

Hi Audrey,

Have you been following the discussions on gorge/fast (or gorge/rest)
feeding here and on rawchat? Since you are feeding your dogs what
sounds like 3x/day (2x plus the lunch veggies? plus bones/chewies?),
they are probably never getting that really full, satisfied feeling,
so they are constantly looking for food. I would imagine they are
not getting big enough food to be very engaging, either. If you
could feed them a bigger meal once a day or even every other day or
so, I bet this would really change. Dogs/wolves are not really
designed to eat small amounts frequently. They hunt as a pack, kill
large animals, and eat as much as they can at once. When a big kill
isn't available, they will snack on smaller prey (if that's
available). And if they've just eaten a big meal, they will rest and
not eat until they're hungry again.

Also, I'm wondering, if your dogs are getting food and treats so
often throughout the day, they might also just always be looking for
the next snack. Feeding them so often sort of inadvertently makes
food their focus. If they weren't getting stuff so frequently, they
wouldn't be expecting it or looking for it all the time. They could
just eat a good meal and relax and think about/do other things. They
would be well-fed, but not waiting for the next bit in a few hrs.
They would learn food is not constantly coming.

I know this all might sound strange, but if you search the archives,
you'll see that many people have helped many issues by feeding less
frequently. Weight tends to stabilize, begging reduces, food-
obsessed dogs calm down, etc.

If you do this, it's a good idea to build up to it. Start reducing
the size of one meal and increasing the size of the other, until
you're feeding once a day. Then if you want, gradually go to every
other day by feeding a bigger meal one day and a snack or no meal the
next.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (13)
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1b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more/gorge/rest
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:

> Have you been following the discussions on gorge/fast (or gorge/rest)
> feeding here and on rawchat?

Hi Audrey,
Here is the link in case you are not a member of the rawchat group.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

I think that the thread which started out as Ginormous Dogs is perfect
for you to read because it is so applicable to your dogs. It just
kinda says it all. KathyM

Messages in this topic (13)
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2. Re: Now - free range v feed lot. was anti-raw website... curious as
Posted by: "Nanette" nanettechols@gmail.com nanettechols
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:04 pm ((PST))

>
> *** Even the people feeding the feedlot animals have little idea what
> chemicals are in there. Only Archer Daniels Midland knows for sure! I
> try to avoid factory farmed meats as much as possible, not only because
> of the quality of the meat, but also because the inhumane practices
> that go on. However, the lowest quality raw meats are still superior to
> the highest "quality" kibble, so the affordability of grassfed and/or
> organic meat should not be factor in the decision to switch to raw.
> Switching to raw is always a good decision.
>
> --Carrie
>
Thanks for that I've been worried because we eat free range and can
barely afford it. I can't imagine if I got my boys on it and I was
worried that I had made a mistake and moved off of good kibble when I
could be making matters worse with all the feedlot chemicals.

Nanette
with Hagrid and Petey (Saint and Saint Something in St. Paul)


Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Re: Was: new member needs help getting started on raw/ Now :...
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:04 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, boswellrt@... wrote:

> My dogs are Border Collies.
> Should I mix anything with the deer because it is so lean?

Hi Trish,
Deer is a perfect food as is. There is no reason to add anything to
it. Just remember the 5% liver and 5% other organs and you should be
good to go. I adopted my smallest dog as a puppy. I always wanted an
aussie, and i found some "aussie x" puppies at a shelter. Now, a
couple of years later, Addie actually looks much more like a blue
merle bc than an aussie. My point is that even though she is my
smallest dog, the head, leg, rib, neck, ..deer bones covered with meat
are edible for her. KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
Posted by: "Monica Hughes" monicabeth10@yahoo.com monicabeth10
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:05 pm ((PST))

HI Melissa -

I am sure others will respond before me, but I want to point out that there's quite a bit of false logic on that website, which I've quickly skimmed.

First off, one group of people are singled out as radicals. Just take the opening sentence:

"A very small segment of pet owners have accepted the opinions of a vocal fringe minority of individuals who are currently proponents of feeding raw foods."

Ask yourself honestly how much more fearmongering you find on that site vs. on raw feeding sites. Also ask yourself if the majority is always right.

Second, the site addresses the BARF diet, not the prey model diet.

Third, yes, dogs probably did diverge evolutionarily from wolves about 100,000 years ago. The question is whether their mode of survival differed significantly in that time period as well. Exactly how much did the digestive system change, and how? This question is not answered in the article. The article is littered with assertions in this regard. For instance, this: "...today's naturally selected evolutionary model of domestic dogs does not have the ability to digest these bones in the same manner anyway." Hmmmm.. T

Then there's this tidbit: "The separation between wolf and domestic dog occurred 100,000 years ago, and yet Barfers choose to believe no internal changes occurred between the domestic dog and the wild wolf. Such an assumption is patently false." Immediately following, the author goes on the discuss the wolf eye as evidence that the wolf and dog digestive tracts are different. ?!? How about discussing the differences in a wolf's digestive track and teeth vs. a dog's, if they exist? Wowowowowow. I think my head is about to explode.

Arguing that vast evolutionary changes have taken place based on mitochondrial DNA is specious. I believe the change in wolf vs. dog mitochondrial DNA is around a half a percent (don't quote me on that, but it's definitely less than a percent.) Changes in mtDNA have also been used to infer evolutionary history in humans to determine where humans originally spread from. Just because some changes in mtDNA have occurred, one can't infer vast changes in physiology. We're all still the same species of human!! The author has not shown that there are any major physiological differences between dogs and wolves.

As for the lifespan myth, what is needed is a comparison of the wolf lifespan in captivity when fed its natural diet. It could well be longer with a raw diet. Comparing a prey model wild wolf with a captive commercial fed wolf is comparing apples and oranges.

Let's get back to that DNA. In humans, we are discovering that certain differences in DNA between individuals allow them to process (or not process) certain nutrients differently, and therefore, the diet must be tweaked slightly for different individuals to be completely optimal. I would not be surprised if this type of nutritional genotyping is eventually done in dogs 20-30 years down the road. After all, not all dogs respond exactly the same way to everything, and are not genetically uniform. (The drug selamectin adversely affects some collies but not others. It's based on a specific mutation.) Have dogs changed genetically from wolves? No doubt. Is a chihuahua genetically different from a great Dane? No doubt. Is it possible that there are minor differences in the way wolves and dogs process food? Yes, but it has not been shown. It's simply asserted.

Much is made of the fact? in the article that dogs can process carbs in kibble. I'm sure I could eat on McD's the rest of my life and subsist on it. It would hardly be healthy.

And if all the other problems with this article aren't bad enough, the author continues: "Handling of raw meat is fraught with danger."

Got that? Food is fraught with danger! Wow, folks, better grill those steaks right through. You know, you could die from eating rare steak! Gimme a break.... Actually, in my lifetime, I've known several people sick from food poisoning on mayo based products and salad bars in restaurants. I have never once met a person who has gotten sick or died from eating meat, although, yes, e. coli poisonings have occurred in the past year on beef and spinach.

Another priceless quote from this site: "We have looked at a couple of the hundreds of pets each year who end up as medical disasters in the veterinary clinic as a direct result of feeding the Barf diet."

I have no doubt that some dogs are dying from homemade diets done incorrectly. Anything is possible. However, how about the thousands of pets that died from eating kibble this past year?

Nothing but scaremongering there. Do some more reading on the prey model diet. I think you will eventually be convinced it is the right way to go.

Monica Hughes
PhD candidate
Forest Pathology and Mycology
SUNY-ESF
Syracuse, NY



---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

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Messages in this topic (11)
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4b. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
Posted by: "Monica Hughes" monicabeth10@yahoo.com monicabeth10
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:00 pm ((PST))

Oh and one more thing. The author of this nonsense says there are no board certified vets that are proponents of a BARF diet. Fine, but there are plenty that are proponents of the prey model diet.

Back in the early 80s, someone proposed that a bacterium was responsible for stomach ulcers. The entire medical community thought this person was a quack. Now, over 20 years later, that bacterium, H. pylori is commonly recognized as the cause of stomach ulcers. Whaddya know. Ever so slowly, the idea was accepted.

The medical and veterinary establishments are very quick to isolate anyone who disagrees with them. In the long run, this only hurts their credibility.

Monica


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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5a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:35 pm ((PST))

Feeding high sugar, high starch carbohydrates is not going to help with
weight loss...and all that sugar makes them want more. Satiety comes from
meat and fat. Ask any low carber! <g>

You *are* adding calories by feeding all that sugar...better to feed larger
more satisfying meals of food that will fill them up and benefit.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "divasdesignerstore" <divasdesignerstore@yahoo.com>

The amount of food I have been feeding them never seems to fill them
up or satisfy them and I do not want to increase it because like I
said they are already overweight. Adding the extra vegetarian food.
Helps them to feel full and satisfied and keeps them from begging,
whinning, and possibly eating a sock or two.
I have tried recreational bones but that doesn't fill them up it just
keeps them busy for about 10 minutes. Then back to scavenging for
something else. And I don't want to add any extra calories so edible
bones are out.

Messages in this topic (13)
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6a. Re: anti-raw website -- curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:00 pm ((PST))

>>P.S I attached a little piece I wrote (pdf file) that you might enjoy.
------------ --------- --------- --------- -

Hoping this finds you and yours "As Fit As A Butcher's Dog" <<


Lee, Karen, Buddy Bear and Holly -- oh, this is a great response!! But I want to read your "little piece" (I get the list in digest, so no pdf file attached). Would you consider sending it to me privately?
Thanks in advance!


-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: anti-raw website -- curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:28 pm ((PST))

Michael Moore <m-tak@...> wrote:
But I want to read your "little piece" (I get the list in digest, so no
pdf file attached). Would you consider sending it to me privately?
*****
Yahoo removes alll attachments. Perhaps a link to the pdf file might
be posted?
Chris o

Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

7. Re: all poultry?
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:01 pm ((PST))

>>Start slow on any new foods. I introduce all new meats to my now 14
week old Dane puppy over a week period. I'll give him a very small
portion during his morning meal only. A little more each day for a week
before any big parts are given. Not a single day of loose stool as of
yet. He eats chicken, turkey, beef, pork, fish, eggs, green tripe, and
venison as of now. <<

This is good advice with adult dogs, but IMO, unnecessary with puppies! I weaned my litter to raw and never introduced any foods in this manner. If I wanted to feed fish, I gave them fish; if vension was on the menu, they ate venison. Puppies seem to adapt to new foods quite reaidly with no issues whatsoever. I suspect your Dane puppy would have had no problems with any of the foods listed regardless of the way they were introduced.


-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Evie" archie.willow@yahoo.co.uk archie.willow
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:01 pm ((PST))

Hi Guys,
On another forum there is an on going debate as to how essential veg
and fruit are to a dogs diet.

I argue that it's not species appropriate, dogs are carnivores etc
etc. Have given ref etc to this point. No avail. I ask what
nutrients can a dog access from fruit and veg that they can't get
from meat bones and offal. The replies are below... I'm only
feeding prey model a year myself and I know my dogs are doing well on
it. Most members on this other site have changed their minds or
agree to disagree with me. But a few members seem to insist I'm
doing my dogs real harm by not adding the veg. Help me please prove
my point!

Here's some of their comments;
(On being asked what a dog can't get from a meat-only diet? ie. what
they get from vegetables? and not just unspecific "vitamins"
or "minerals".)
"chromium, selenium, iodine, vit a,b,e,d mannitol, carotin (essential
for vit a production) copper, magnesium, manganese, zinc,
potassium...do you want me to go on???"
"The most important thing that dogs need and must get from veg is
fibre - both soluble and insoluble. Dogs fed veg free diets are VERY
prone to diseases involving the failure of food to be absorbed,
pancreatic disease and other pancreatic problems such as sugar
diabetes and pancreatitis.

There are also all vitamin requirements to be found in veg - with the
exception of vitamin B12 of course, and it has to be said veg is also
low in thiamin and choline. To my knowledge, dogs are not going to
obtain vit C in sufficient quantity in bones and meat alone. I know
that supplements can be fed, but that is never as good as getting
vitamin and mineral requirement from a natural diet."

I feel like I'm going round in circles trying to educate these
people. *Sigh* All help appreciated.

Evie
x

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:21 pm ((PST))

Evie,

All of those vitamins and minerals they list...and fiber...are included in
meat, bones and organs. Wonder where in the world those little wolves are
getting their nutrients and fiber without someone to grind up fruits and
veggies for them??? Hmmmm......
And if they were required, why didn't nature provide them with the tooth
structure and digestive system necessary to process and derive nutrition
from veggies? They are right, vitamins should come from a natural
diet....but fruits and veggies are not natural for carnivores.

I would ask for proof from this person as it is complete nonsense!

"The most important thing that dogs need and must get from veg is
fibre - both soluble and insoluble. Dogs fed veg free diets are VERY
prone to diseases involving the failure of food to be absorbed,
pancreatic disease and other pancreatic problems such as sugar
diabetes and pancreatitis."

In fact, it is just the opposite....since dogs do not have the necessary
enzymes in their saliva to process carbohydrates, the pancreas has to
manufacture extra enzymes to digest them which puts strain on that organ.
Pancreatic disease and diabetes is caused by inappropriate foods.
http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

Here is an article that explains it in ferrets who are also carnivores.....
http://www.ferretclub.org.au/showcontent.toy?senid=101505&contentnid=106656

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Evie" <archie.willow@yahoo.co.uk>

"chromium, selenium, iodine, vit a,b,e,d mannitol, carotin (essential
for vit a production) copper, magnesium, manganese, zinc,
potassium...do you want me to go on???"
"The most important thing that dogs need and must get from veg is
fibre - both soluble and insoluble. Dogs fed veg free diets are VERY
prone to diseases involving the failure of food to be absorbed,
pancreatic disease and other pancreatic problems such as sugar
diabetes and pancreatitis.

There are also all vitamin requirements to be found in veg - with the
exception of vitamin B12 of course, and it has to be said veg is also
low in thiamin and choline. To my knowledge, dogs are not going to
obtain vit C in sufficient quantity in bones and meat alone. I know
that supplements can be fed, but that is never as good as getting
vitamin and mineral requirement from a natural diet."


Messages in this topic (8)
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8c. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:35 pm ((PST))

Have this person look up the nutritional information of raw foods at

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

Selenium, vit A, B, E, D, copper, magnesium, manganese, zinc and
potassium are all found in, say, raw liver. Chromium and Iodine
aren't listed in that nutrient database but iodine is definitely in
fish and according to this website beef has lots of chromium (this
might not work as a hyperlink since the address is so long):
http://www.healthyeatingclub.com/info/books-
phds/books/foodfacts/html/data/data5m.html

As far as fiber they are confusing human and canine digestive
systems. Ask for something to back up their argument that a dog
needs anything other than what edible bone provides.

Dogs manufacture their own vitamin C, and raw foods also have vitamin
C in them. It sounds like this person has no idea how much stuff is
actually in raw foods. It's hard to convince people who are so sure
they are right. That's why I'm glad I have you brave souls to fight
the good fight. I love supplying ammo for you all, but I don't have
the stomach for it myself.

Andrea


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Evie" <archie.willow@...> wrote:

> Here's some of their comments;
> (On being asked what a dog can't get from a meat-only diet? ie.
> what they get from vegetables? and not just unspecific "vitamins"
> or "minerals".)
> "chromium, selenium, iodine, vit a,b,e,d mannitol, carotin
> (essential for vit a production) copper, magnesium, manganese,
> zinc, potassium...do you want me to go on???"

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

8d. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:15 pm ((PST))

Evie,
Don't waste your breath, time or energy. They won't listen! Just stay
here. We all agree!!!
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (8)
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8e. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:16 pm ((PST))

I find the fact that a coyote's mitochondrial DNA differs from a wolf's
by only 4% and a dog's differs by a scant .2% to be proof enough that
our housewolves should be fed what a proper wolf diet. Denise

From: "Evie" <archie.willow@...>
Dogs fed veg free diets are VERY prone to diseases involving the
failure of food to be absorbed, pancreatic disease and other pancreatic
problems such as sugar diabetes and pancreatitis.


Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

8f. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:20 pm ((PST))


-----Original Message-----
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Andrea
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 2:35 PM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf
sometimes!


### maybe we should start force feeding horses and cows raw meat...they
must need the protein & fat? sheesh...
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Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

8g. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:14 pm ((PST))

> "The most important thing that dogs need and must get from veg is
> fibre - both soluble and insoluble. Dogs fed veg free diets are VERY
> prone to diseases involving the failure of food to be absorbed,
> pancreatic disease and other pancreatic problems such as sugar
> diabetes and pancreatitis.

Diabetes can develope due to diet or due to genetics or both. Dietary
induce diabeties is far far more common than diabeties from genetics.

Diabetes from food happens because the endocrine system including the
pancreas is over worked due to high levels of sugar (carbs) in the
diet. If the diet does not have carbs or has very few carbs, then the
pancreas is not over worked, and there is not logical reason to think
that a dog would develope diabeties.

Pancreatic disfunction can develope when a pancrease is overworked and
stressed, such as in having to digest lots of carbs. A raw, protein
and fat rich diet is far easier on a dogs pancreas than anything else.

A lack of sugar in the diet causing disease is a complete fraud that
only benefits the corporations that line ther pockets by selling high
carb foods. The exact oppsite is true, high amounts of sugar or carbs
in the diet cause disease, it causes the exact problems that these
people are claiming they prevent.

If you feel better feeding your dog vegetables, fine, feed them some
vegetables. Most vegetables are not going to be digested to any
extent by a dog without a lot of preprocessing on the vegetable. So
the vegetables will not do much harm, but they won't do any good
either. Vegetables are really a waste of money for carnivores, amd
really are not approiate, but if you feel you have to feed vegetables,
its not going to hurt much as long as its done in moderation.

Also, I highly suggest you stop feeding anything that is cooked.
Cooking food is pointless at best, and very likely damaging to the
dogs health. Cooking food does kill some bacteria, but it mainly
serves to enhance the flavor and tenderness of meats for humans. Dogs
are not affect by the bacteria in meat (and neither are we most of the
time) and they don't need the meat to be tender or have the flavor
enhanced to enjoy it.

If you really want to do what is best for your dog, feed them the way
they would eat in the wild, raw meat, bones and fat. Nothing cooked,
no fruit, no vegetables. Feed liver, heart muscle, etc. Feed them
any parts from a living creature that you can find, but never cook it.

Good Luck

Jamie


Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

8h. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Pi" scribblekitten@yahoo.com scribblekitten
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:19 pm ((PST))

Chia wrote:
>
> ### maybe we should start force feeding horses and cows raw meat...they
> must need the protein & fat? sheesh...
> Chia & Ricco

I actually often say that to people who start on the veg thing with me
and it's one of the more successful comments. Once people look at it
that way it makes more sense to them. Of course, if they're totally
stuck on the idea that a dog is an omnivore then it doesn't work :(

-Anna +Pirate


Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
Posted by: "Sherrel Leininger" meawolf50@yahoo.com meawolf50
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:02 pm ((PST))

I feed outside when I can but it is very cold here right now. I also feed in my kitchen. They tried going into the rooms where we have hard wood floors but I have had them bring it back to the kitchen so they kinda know now that they have to eat in the kitchen. I did have them eating in their crates when they just had blankets in them but they got new pads for christmas so I don't let them eat raw meat in on the new pads. Mostly they eat in the corners of the kitchen or outside. I just spray and mop those corners after each meal. When it is warmer they will eat outside all the time.

Sherrel, Daisy and Lilly
Jeromesville, Ohio


____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mcburkel" <morsgreatdanes@...> wrote:
>
> My danes have alot of white and you can see the skin under the fur
> and the skin is reddish blotches about as big as a pencil eraser.
> Some of them turn into a bump. Mostly around the neck and a few on
> the back, usually.
>
> The only thing that I can think of is that they have been ultra picky
> latley and are getting more chicken, such as they will eat a little
> bit of the turkey and I make them wait until next day when its
> chicken day. I try not to spoil them that way.
>
> Please help... Need more info just ask!!
>
> Marian
>
***

I may be in the minority here, but I think chicken is evil for some
dogs. Before raw, but especially after we fed exclusively chicken, my
standard poodle has been plagued with skin issues just like the ones
you describe. Since I took chicken off the menu, no new eruptions, his
hair is growing back and the malessezia on his belly is resolving.
Other proteins can be expensive, but it's worth a try. Nothing
ventured, nothing gained, right.

Pamela Picard
http://www.pet-wellness-update.com
http://aimees-law.blogspot.com/
aimees_law-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


***Sign the petition***
Exempt Sick & Senior Pets from Rabies Shots
http://www.petitiononline.com/tdsh2007/petition.html

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Refusal
Posted by: "Sarah" shadyburger10@sbcglobal.net shadyburger10
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:18 pm ((PST))

Thx to all,

I'm gonna try all those suggestions. Oh, one other thing... she IS
guarding from the other dogs. So she does see it as "her's". She will
hold it in her mouth and lick it.

I'll try a few other thing mentions

Thanks again,

Sarah Burger
Dayton, OH

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: Refusal
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:56 pm ((PST))

Hi Sarah,

That could be another piece to the puzzle, too. Can you make sure
she's not stressed when eating? Feed her further away from the others,
or in a crate or a separate room or behind a baby gate or something?

Just a thought,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah" <shadyburger10@...> wrote:
>... she IS
> guarding from the other dogs.

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12. vegetation happens
Posted by: "Kate" kcauley@hotmail.com simcoi
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:16 pm ((PST))

Happy New Year
Long time listener first time caller.
Simon is my GHLM*, and he started raw on January one 2008.
*Simon is a GreyHound Lab Mix and he looks a lot like Santa's lil'
helper from the Simpsons. Last year, what little pedigree Simon has,
got hold of him in the worst way. He was diagnosed with glaucoma. His
optometrist said it is a rare form of glaucoma which is prevalent in
some greyhounds. Deficiencies aside I am living with my most favorite
dog in the whole world. (…he made me write that.) So he's blind in one
eye, nine years old and otherwise in excellent condition. Born and
adopted on kibble I remember never being happy with the food I gave
him. I'd go from bag to bag over the years and watch his symptoms
become more and more frequent. He'd get a mysterious rash in his ear,
bad breath, and don't get me started on the poop. I did what I could,
buying the more expensive/natural/hogwash bag of food, which only made
me feel more powerless and frustrated because I was still unsatisfied
with his health. These few days of switching to raw has given me more
of a sense of his nutrition than ever before, because frankly I wasn't
reading the back of the bag I was too busy with the pretty picture of
a lamb hugging the sweet potato on the front. I too wish I'd switched
years ago. The thought of trusting a company that sells a bag for
profit that doesn't need a FDA premarket approval, which
commercializes and industrializes every step of the way to convince
you that it is "Safe and Nutritious", by non regulated standards…It's
my epiphany! It will be interesting to look for signs of change in
Simon, and it's inspired me to eat better as well.

I really enjoy the first time meal stories, both dog and owner
experience, so here's Simon's
Simon is a sensitive guy. Sometimes I pause when he looks at me, as if
he is in doubt just making sure the world is right, so it was no
surprise to see his reaction the other night when I fed him his first
bowl of chicken backs in the backyard. (As the self proclaimed Martha
Stewart of dog fancy, I hand threw his bowl and engobed Hirschfeldin
caricatures of himself inside for his Christmas present.) We stood
there in the cold and he looked at me as if I'd just left the BBQ on
the porch. After a bit of coaxing he took a piece and self-consciously
moved into the yard. He started removing the skin. He looked around, I
had to hide in order to watch him, he was nervous. Then crunch,
crunch. No hording gulper here. As I watched I thought about the
advice given on the site and noted to myself, "I know there is
controversy over this issue; I for one believe vegetation happens!
Especially in an unraked backyard with a sticky meal." Nothing seemed
to bother him during his second feeding I enjoy watching his
scissor-face in action. It all makes sense. My thanks to this site and
people like Sandee and Bill. Simon and I have made the switch.
Kate Cauley

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13. chicken with the bones too?
Posted by: "lifted_trucks_21" lifted_trucks_21@yahoo.com lifted_trucks_21
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:19 pm ((PST))

i know i know i need to look at questions already answer but still
> kinda lost. thank you for everyones info. i guess chicken would be
> best for him i take it. frozen so im not cooking it im giving him the
> raw chicken... right??? confused about it. i will look at older posts
> to get more info but just kinda confused on how to start. and i fast
> my dog? so i feed him then dont feed him??? so if you were in my
shoes
> with my 120lb boy what steps would you take?? thanks everyone sorry
im
> clueless even with all the great help. mari
>

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14a. books
Posted by: "lifted_trucks_21" lifted_trucks_21@yahoo.com lifted_trucks_21
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:19 pm ((PST))

are there any good books out i can buy and get deep in this raw
subject. i just need to see what he can eat what kind of menu i can
set him up to budget his weekly needs. thanks everyone. mari

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12454

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Refusal
From: Sarah
1b. Re: Refusal
From: Laurie Swanson
1c. Re: Refusal
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
From: rosey031801
2b. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
From: Sandee Lee

3. Dogs eating after each other a problem or concern ???
From: rosey031801

4a. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: homesforallpets
4b. anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: cypressbunny
4c. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: jjareski
4d. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: ychinook

5a. Re: Starting raw with my boys
From: godkrittersnkids
5b. Re: Starting raw with my boys
From: godkrittersnkids

6. avoiding choking or inhaling small pieces was Hello & Intro
From: Darjeelingirl

7a. bones included?
From: zooper50
7b. Re: bones included?
From: Laurie Swanson
7c. Re: bones included?
From: Andrea
7d. Re: bones included?
From: Tina Berry

8a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: Debbie
8b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: divasdesignerstore
8c. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: ekendahl

9a. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
From: homesforallpets
9b. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
From: jaygaughan

10a. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
From: Sandee Lee

11a. Re: All poultry?
From: jaygaughan

12. Request - coconut - how to open
From: Joyloulin@aol.com


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Refusal
Posted by: "Sarah" shadyburger10@sbcglobal.net shadyburger10
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 9:58 am ((PST))

I've been on the list for a long time, but just now am making the
switch. I tried once before but household circumstances wouldn't
allow me to continue.

Two older dogs are just fine. They love it. My 11 month old female
Matiff is now going on over 48 hrs refusal. Me being a trainer, I
know a healthy dog (that she is) will not starve itself. When
switching from "free feeding" to a feeding schedule w/ my Akita, he
went on strike for 4 complete days. That was at 5 years old though.

She's hungry, I know she is. Being a puppy, she needs these
calories. How long do I wait? As long as it takes? I'm sure those
are rhetorical questions, I guess I'm just seeking reassurance or
some suggestions.

Everybody's doing poultry right now to start, I've got some rabbit I
can offer her too. I really wanted to keep them on the same feeding
schedule though.

*sigh

Sarah Burger
Dayton, OH

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Refusal
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:35 am ((PST))

Hi Sarah,

In what form are you feeding the chicken (what parts? straight from
the frig?)? Have you tried warming it up a little in some warm water
(in a baggie)? Ribboning the meat? Cutting up a few pieces of
boneless meat? Handing her a bite or two to make sure she has the
idea? Topping with a little parmesan cheese or something?

She may be confused about whether this is food, or not know how to
approach it. Where are you feeding? Asking just in case you're
putting something in a bowl that really needs room to use paws, etc.
and should be fed on a towel or in a crate or something.

Or she just may not be excited about her new food and is hoping
you'll cave and bring back the old stuff. If that's the case, I'd
tough it out with her (meaning, feed the chicken, but try different
ways of presenting it).

She's not getting any other food or treats at all, is she? If not, I
imagine she'll eat in the next day or two. If so, she may not be
getting hungry enough, or she might hope she'll get more of that.

You may want to search the archives for picky eaters, etc.

Good luck,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah" <shadyburger10@...> wrote:

> She's hungry, I know she is. Being a puppy, she needs these
> calories. How long do I wait? As long as it takes? I'm sure those
> are rhetorical questions, I guess I'm just seeking reassurance or
> some suggestions.


Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Refusal
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 11:16 am ((PST))

Sarah,

A few tricks of the trade <g>....warm the food, slice into it in a few
spots, sprinkle with Parmesan. Chicken is quite bland compared to kibble
and some dogs just need it spiced up a bit! If you have kibble in the house
get rid of it...the smell is powerful and will cause some dogs to "hold
out", hoping for all those carbs!!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Sarah" <shadyburger10@sbcglobal.net>

Two older dogs are just fine. They love it. My 11 month old female
Matiff is now going on over 48 hrs refusal. Me being a trainer, I
know a healthy dog (that she is) will not starve itself. When
switching from "free feeding" to a feeding schedule w/ my Akita, he
went on strike for 4 complete days. That was at 5 years old though.


Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:04 am ((PST))

I switched my old dog , a ten plus year old border mix. His biggest
problem was he didn't want it at first. After he got used to not
getting anything else he did fine. No stomach upset at all. Now I am
switching an 18 year old beagle as we speak. He had a problem with
diarrhea on kibble. No diarrhea now. Chicken for two weeks and he's
great! Now I am going to try some variety a little at a time.
good luck!
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 11:35 am ((PST))

Hi Melissa,

That site is typical unfounded nonsense. Facts can be found in the
rawfeeding myths and by hanging around here where there are 10,000 members
feeding countless numbers of dogs without all of those issues. If
rawfeeding were that dangerous and that difficult I doubt many of us would
be continuing on with this. I have only been feeding raw for 8 years and on
this list for 5, but I have never heard of one documented case of torn
intestines.

Feeding raw is so simple, a child could do it! :) Seriously, just look at
the natural diet of a carnivore and feed accordingly. All of the ratios
will be perfectly "balanced" when you fed tons of eat, a little edible bone
and organs.

Here are just a few of the issues that will be resolved when sticking with
facts....

Dogs are carnivores...classification is based on anatomy and physiology....
http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

Dogs are the same species as the grey wolf...this is based on DNA....
http://rawfed.com/myths/changed.html

From wolf studies we know beyond a shadow of a doubt what their diet
includes...
http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

BTW, grainless kibble is no better than any other kibble. It is still
processed, inappropriate and filled with starchy, sugar laden carbohydrates,
so don't feel bad that it's too expensive for you. It would not provide any
benefit for your dog with skin problems.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "certaintragedies" <inaudibly@gmail.com>
I'm in a bit of a dilemma now though. I can't decide whether to make
the change or not. I did some more research and found some information
on how a domesticated dog is vastly different from a wolf and so their
dietary needs are different:

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/barf-myth.html

And the other thing I also discovered was the danger of torn
intestines because of bones, as well as problems with phosphorus and
calcium levels and bacteria because of imbalanced diets. It seems like
feeding raw is really an art that you have to perfect and I don't know
if I want to take that risk with my girls.


Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3. Dogs eating after each other a problem or concern ???
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:04 am ((PST))

I have a question for those of you with LOTS of experience in this. I
have an old (18) beagle making the switch. He sometimes leaves some
left overs in the yard. My ten year old dog may eat the same peice he
ate on. Is there anything I should worry about with this. The beagle is
probably close to going to heaven so he doesn't go to the vet anymore.
His eyes have a discharge and his teeth are awful, he may have an
infection but I don't think it would be contagious. What do you think?
Should I go out and pick up the leftovers...I don't want to have to do
that. Any advice?
Thanks,
Cheryl

PS My dog is very healthy!

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:15 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "spricketysprock"
<jess.hamway@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone come across this website?
> http://www.secondchanceranch.com/training/raw_meat/index.html
>
> Just curious what your thoughts are...
>
> Jess & Toby
>
I notice they do not have a place to comment. I could only stomach
reading the first page and wanted to scream! Dogs fed cooked foods
and kibble do worse than the few who may die due to swallowing a neck
or portion of a back whole. Splintering bones? I've seen my terrier
shred chicken bones but technically this isn't splintering right? I
pickup a piece of one such bone and it bent and did not cut my hand.
Believe me I tried to get it to, not out of morbid want to do harm to
myself but to see if it would hurt me. I mean it hurt but did not
pierce my skin. In fact it broke in half. Please note, I do not
recomend anyone do that lol! From what I understand the bone dangers
are ONLY those of cooked or smaller ones fed to gulpers?

I think I'll try to avoid anti-raw sites. My dogs ahve been eating
raw about a week now and LOVE it! I have started feeding seperate so
that Holly gets appropriately sized pieces and Angel doesn't gulp
them (she gulpe twice so only big for her now) and to be sure one is
not eating more than the other.

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:27 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Michelle G. Heimendinger"
<michelle@...> wrote:
>
> Do most folks have any idea of what chemicals are being fed to feedlot
> animals ?

*** Even the people feeding the feedlot animals have little idea what
chemicals are in there. Only Archer Daniels Midland knows for sure! I
try to avoid factory farmed meats as much as possible, not only because
of the quality of the meat, but also because the inhumane practices
that go on. However, the lowest quality raw meats are still superior to
the highest "quality" kibble, so the affordability of grassfed and/or
organic meat should not be factor in the decision to switch to raw.
Switching to raw is always a good decision.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "jjareski" jjareski1@hotmail.com jjareski
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:03 pm ((PST))

I leave the chicken mostly frozen and found that my dogs chew the
food rather then wolfing it down. They take 5 10 min to eat when
it's raw and a good 20 to 30 min when its frozen.

Josie Sadie & Gizmo


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "homesforallpets"
<homesforallpets@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "spricketysprock"
> <jess.hamway@> wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone come across this website?
> > http://www.secondchanceranch.com/training/raw_meat/index.html
> >
> > Just curious what your thoughts are...
> >
> > Jess & Toby
> >
> I notice they do not have a place to comment. I could only stomach
> reading the first page and wanted to scream! Dogs fed cooked foods
> and kibble do worse than the few who may die due to swallowing a
neck
> or portion of a back whole. Splintering bones? I've seen my
terrier
> shred chicken bones but technically this isn't splintering right?
I
> pickup a piece of one such bone and it bent and did not cut my
hand.
> Believe me I tried to get it to, not out of morbid want to do harm
to
> myself but to see if it would hurt me. I mean it hurt but did not
> pierce my skin. In fact it broke in half. Please note, I do not
> recomend anyone do that lol! From what I understand the bone
dangers
> are ONLY those of cooked or smaller ones fed to gulpers?
>
> I think I'll try to avoid anti-raw sites. My dogs ahve been eating
> raw about a week now and LOVE it! I have started feeding seperate
so
> that Holly gets appropriately sized pieces and Angel doesn't gulp
> them (she gulpe twice so only big for her now) and to be sure one
is
> not eating more than the other.
>
> Kathy in MO
>


Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "ychinook" chinook.nr@tds.net ychinook
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:04 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "homesforallpets"
<homesforallpets@...> wrote:

> I notice they do not have a place to comment.


Oh they do have a Contact Us for email. I usually send each such site
that comes across my radar a little note (my perversion). In this
case I sent the following:
--------------------------------------------
Someone mentioned your anti-raw site as an argument and it was so
amateurish, opinionated and obviously misleading that a child could
rebut it. I guess you're aiming for a like audience - extremely naive
:-)

I think you would be infuriated by (just to name a few):

* the studies of Dr.Robert K Wayne and subsequent verifications

http://www.eeb.ucla.edu/indivfaculty.php?FacultyKey=501

* L. David Mech - e.g. The Way of the Wolf

http://www.davemech.org/

* Robert H. Busch - e.g. The Wolf Almanac

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?z=y&ATH=Robert+H.+Busch

* Bruce Fogle, D.V.M. - The Encyclopedia of the Dog

http://www.brucefogle.com/

* talking to some old country vets - i.e. before the current wave of
wallet-vets

It might also help to study Metabolic Physiology.

Of course if you wish to persist in creating misinformation then there
is a whole field of study that might help. You could begin with the
following:

* Stauber & Rampton, "Trust Us, We're Experts", Tarcher/Putnam 2001

* Ewen, Stuart PR!: A Social History of Spin 1996 ISBN: 0-465-06168-0
Published by Basic Books, A Division of Harper Collins

* Tye, Larry The Father of Spin: Edward L. Bernays and the Birth of
Public Relations Crown Publishers, Inc. 2001

* King, R Medical journals rarely disclose researchers' ties
Wall St. Journal, 2 Feb 99.

* Engler, R et al. Misrepresentation and Responsibility in Medical
Research
New England Journal of Medicine v 317 p 1383 26 Nov 1987


Hoping this finds you and yours "As Fit As A Butcher's Dog"
Lee, Karen, Buddy Bear and Holly


"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes" --
Dr. Tom Lonsdale in his book "Raw Meaty Bones: Promote Health"

P.S I attached a little piece I wrote (pdf file) that you might enjoy.
----------------------------------------

Hoping this finds you and yours "As Fit As A Butcher's Dog"
Lee, Karen, Buddy Bear and Holly


Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Starting raw with my boys
Posted by: "godkrittersnkids" godkrittersnkids@yahoo.com godkrittersnkids
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:15 am ((PST))

Thank you for your sage advice. I'm so looking forward to improving my
furbabies' quality of life!

Linda, Jackie, Lonnie & Annie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> I think it was more because you were mixing kibble and meat. No, it
> is usually not a problem. That doesn't mean your dogs will never
pass
> gas, just that it shouldn't be any more than now and probably less.
>
> Bill Carnes


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Starting raw with my boys
Posted by: "godkrittersnkids" godkrittersnkids@yahoo.com godkrittersnkids
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:15 am ((PST))

*** Mod Note: please remember to sign your posts ***

LOL! Thanks for the warning...even tho' it's 'WAY cold here, it's
supposed to warm up this weekend...a little 'fresh air' in the house
during the winter might actually be refreshing!!

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Amy Tracy" <amypatriciatracy@...>
wrote:
>
> > IMO it wouldn't hurt to brace yourself. ... She had this gas
> even as she was loving her diet and pooing normally. Hey, consider it
> a blessing if it doesn't happen, but it can't hurt to loosen those
> storm windows just in case. Best of luck.
> Amy (and Rosie)
>


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6. avoiding choking or inhaling small pieces was Hello & Intro
Posted by: "Darjeelingirl" darjeelingirl@comcast.net zoookeeeper
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:28 am ((PST))

* >>if I get a good deal on say, boneless red meat, chicken, pork loin,
>> do I cut it in cubes or let them suck it down?

>If I get a great deal on boneless meat that is choke-tastic size, I
>freeze a bunch together and feed it as a semi-frozen chunk. Chopping
>up meat only seems to encourage my little vaccuums.

Since I have to currently grind up chicken for my transitioning cats, I
accidentally discovered that if I grind up pieces of meat that are too small
for the dog to chew <grin> and shape the meat into big softball sized balls
and freeze them, it works great. I give Sherlock (Sherlock Bones, to be
exact :-)) a frozen ball for dinner, and voila! Serious gnawing ensues.

Patsy, a newbie too

Sherlock Bones 4.5 mos beagle

Cuthbert 10 year tabby, Snickers 5 year Maine Coon

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7a. bones included?
Posted by: "zooper50" zooper1@juno.com zooper50
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:28 am ((PST))

Hi, I'm new here but have been reading about feeding raw for a long
time and have also been feeding NV raw.

My question is this - when weighing the amount of food they get for a
meal, is the bone weight included or is that just the meat? I have just
started feeding raw with bone so I don't want to starve my dogs! I am
weighing it now until I get better at gauging how much each of them
eats per meal.

I have been giving one meal of primarily meat and the second meal of
meaty bones.

I have 5 toy breed dogs.

Thanks!
Teri

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7b. Re: bones included?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:38 am ((PST))

Teri,

The edible bone weight is included. (Whatever is eaten is included.)
So, if a bone isn't edible, subtract the weight of it. Of course, it's
pretty impractical to calculate all of that all the time, but it
sometimes helps in the beginning. If I'm curious, I will look at the
weight of something before I feed it, and then weigh any
leftover/inedible bone, and subtract it--to see what my dog actually
ate. Then I can start visualizing things better.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "zooper50" <zooper1@...> wrote:

> My question is this - when weighing the amount of food they get for a
> meal, is the bone weight included or is that just the meat?

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7c. Re: bones included?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:38 am ((PST))

Include the weight of the edible bone, but not stuff that they won't
consume. When I give my dogs a slab of beef ribs I consider it a light
meal since they leave all the bones after they have been picked clean.
I know that at first it helps to weigh the food but don't get too
caught up in the numbers. Tiny dogs often eat more than 2-3% of their
ideal adult weight.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "zooper50" <zooper1@...> wrote:

> My question is this - when weighing the amount of food they get for
> a meal, is the bone weight included or is that just the meat?

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7d. Re: bones included?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:41 am ((PST))

"when weighing the amount of food they get for a meal, is the bone weight
included or is that just the meat? "

I include the bone.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


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8a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "Debbie" alabamdeb2@yahoo.com alabamdeb2
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:37 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.

I don't have any suggestions, being a "newbie" myself, but I can sure
sympathize with you! I have an english bulldog that does the same
thing. I swear she's part pig. I almost feel bad giving her pork,
because it's like I'm making her be a lil' cannibal. She tries her
best to be quick enough to grab anything that hits the floor in the
kitchen. Last time it was small piece of cardboard and yes, she ate
that before Mom could wrestle it away. Always "starving". And this is
a dog that I used to have to BEG to eat when she was on crap-in-a-bag.

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8b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "divasdesignerstore" divasdesignerstore@yahoo.com divasdesignerstore
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:40 am ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

Since my pugs are severly over weight from kibble food. The "right"
amount of real--bio-available--food does not fill them up so they go
looking for other things to eat. Such as non-edible items. Socks,
underwear, cat poop, rabbit poop, etc.
The amount of food I have been feeding them never seems to fill them
up or satisfy them and I do not want to increase it because like I
said they are already overweight. Adding the extra vegetarian food.
Helps them to feel full and satisfied and keeps them from begging,
whinning, and possibly eating a sock or two.
I have tried recreational bones but that doesn't fill them up it just
keeps them busy for about 10 minutes. Then back to scavenging for
something else. And I don't want to add any extra calories so edible
bones are out.
I have never had any problems with doing so. They gobble it up and
poop it out just fine. No digestive disturbances other than feeling
full.
Audrey


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8c. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:03 pm ((PST))

How long have you fed your pug only meat and bones?

I'm thinking that maybe his insulin level might still be high (or
fluctuating) which can cause hunger.

It has been shown that for humans eating a lot of carbohydrates both
delays the "full" signal to the brain as well as creates hunger
feelings faster then diets low in carbs. I can notice this be true in
myself.

If I eat a big breakfast of poached eggs, smoked salmon and
hollandaise sauce (with no bread or carbs) at 9 am, I don't really
feel hungry until very late in the afternoon say 4.30 pm. I often skip
lunch these days.

If I eat a smaller portion of the above but add a serving of whole
wheat serial and milk, I feel similar fullness after the meal but I'm
STARVING at lunch.

I'm thinking the same might hold true for dogs, that if they are fed
carbs they might get hungry sooner.

I'm also thinking that feeding them fattier food will make them stay
full longer and as their insuling should be low it shouldn't really
mean will gain weight. A problem with chicken might be that it's soo
low in fat that it creates hunger sooner.

Just my 0.02$, for an interesting read on this subject I recommend
"good calories/bad calores" by Taube. It really shows a summary of a
lot of interesting research in weight loss/management.

/Robert Ekendahl

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9a. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:38 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
I don't remember ever seeing a post saying "My
> dog has salmonella" You will soon learn that samonella, E-coli, etc
> is just not a problem when feeding raw assuming you wash your hands
> as you would after handling raw meat for humans.

Its funny. I recently lost a gerbil to Samonella. About 4 months
before they ended the pet food recall. Vet said it may have been from
food or my not washing up after handling raw meat. I looked into it.
The food I had been feeding (Kaytee) had just changed their source for
many of the ingredients in the food I had fed. I changed, now I feed
Mazuri to my remaining gerbils. I also new a breeder in Michigan who
had to shut down from selling or aquiring new gerbils for almost a
year due to a salmonella out break. So its not just carnivores at
risk. Every living thing is constantly at risk of being ill. LOL,
its like I say, being alive is an illness for which the only cure is
death. I don't say it to be mean or anything but really you can not
be alive and not at risk for SOMETHING :)

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (12)
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9b. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> It's actually much easier to get a dog to eat in a certain spot
than
> you would think. Lay out the towel, put the food on it and let the
> dog eat. If the dog starts to go away with the food, gently place
> the food back on the towel and explain that the towel is the eating
> spot. After a couple of times putting the food back on the towel
> they get the idea. It's also a good idea to put the towel in a
> corner or somewhere that isn't out in the open.
>

>
> Andrea

This is exactly what I did Andrea and it worked GREAT! With in a week
at 10 weeks my now 14 week old Dane puppy doesn't leave his spot with
his food. I dropped a 5lb chcken in his dish this morn and he stayed
right there and went to town on it. 5 minutes later he was licking
his dish for more. He's 45 pounds and growing like a weed.

This is my first Dane feeding raw. MUCH easier than I expected. Just
thaw from the night before and drop in his dish in the morn.

Jay

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10a. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 12:49 pm ((PST))

Marian,

Salmon is fine as long as it has been frozen for a week or so. If you buy
commercially, it has already been frozen...if fresh caught, just throw it in
your freezer.

Much of the chicken these days does have some sort of preservative
solution...that goes for parts and whole. I would bet coming from Walmart
that it is enhanced. Same with turkeys...very hard to find a turk without
preservatives. You have to be really diligent at reading labels. Some dogs
may be able to handle them ok, but many cannot. There are those who believe
it's just chicken broth and perfectly healthy but that is not true. The
ingredients can contain various phosphates and other chemicals, sugar,
flavor enhancers, modified food starch...and who knows how much salt.
Anyway, something to think about.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mcburkel" <morsgreatdanes@comcast.net>

Sandee-Im not using any suppliments though they do get small tidbits
of treats occasionally BUT its nothing we having been giving for
months. What kind of fish do you suggest? Here in WA we have to be
careful what kind of fish we give our dogs because the fish are
usually with what we call salmon poisoning and it scares me to give
RAW fish.

Jeni-I use walmart chicken I believe it is called red leaf. I looked
on the bag and it doesnt mention anything about hormones or ??? I kow
with my first boy when he fully healed then I waited a month and
tried whole chickens and cut them up and it didnt make a difference
it came back within a month.


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11a. Re: All poultry?
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:04 pm ((PST))

Start slow on any new foods. I introduce all new meats to my now 14
week old Dane puppy over a week period. I'll give him a very small
portion during his morning meal only. A little more each day for a week
before any big parts are given. Not a single day of loose stool as of
yet. He eats chicken, turkey, beef, pork, fish, eggs, green tripe, and
venison as of now.


Jay


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12. Request - coconut - how to open
Posted by: "Joyloulin@aol.com" Joyloulin@aol.com loulin3
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:04 pm ((PST))

Someone shared online a video with a woman opening a fresh coconut. Someone
just asked me about this. I sent her another one - but don't think it is as
good. Could you please email me the link
Thank you.

Louise

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


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