[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12455

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more/gorge/rest
From: Laurie Swanson
1b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more/gorge/rest
From: katkellm

2. Re: Now - free range v feed lot. was anti-raw website... curious as
From: Nanette

3a. Re: Was: new member needs help getting started on raw/ Now :...
From: katkellm

4a. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
From: Monica Hughes
4b. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
From: Monica Hughes

5a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: Sandee Lee

6a. Re: anti-raw website -- curious as to your thoughts?
From: Michael Moore
6b. Re: anti-raw website -- curious as to your thoughts?
From: costrowski75

7. Re: all poultry?
From: Michael Moore

8a. Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Evie
8b. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Sandee Lee
8c. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Andrea
8d. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: rosey031801
8e. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Denise Strother
8f. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Chia
8g. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Jamie Dolan
8h. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Pi

9a. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
From: Sherrel Leininger

10a. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
From: Pamela Picard

11a. Re: Refusal
From: Sarah
11b. Re: Refusal
From: Laurie Swanson

12. vegetation happens
From: Kate

13. chicken with the bones too?
From: lifted_trucks_21

14a. books
From: lifted_trucks_21

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more/gorge/rest
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:04 pm ((PST))

Hi Audrey,

Have you been following the discussions on gorge/fast (or gorge/rest)
feeding here and on rawchat? Since you are feeding your dogs what
sounds like 3x/day (2x plus the lunch veggies? plus bones/chewies?),
they are probably never getting that really full, satisfied feeling,
so they are constantly looking for food. I would imagine they are
not getting big enough food to be very engaging, either. If you
could feed them a bigger meal once a day or even every other day or
so, I bet this would really change. Dogs/wolves are not really
designed to eat small amounts frequently. They hunt as a pack, kill
large animals, and eat as much as they can at once. When a big kill
isn't available, they will snack on smaller prey (if that's
available). And if they've just eaten a big meal, they will rest and
not eat until they're hungry again.

Also, I'm wondering, if your dogs are getting food and treats so
often throughout the day, they might also just always be looking for
the next snack. Feeding them so often sort of inadvertently makes
food their focus. If they weren't getting stuff so frequently, they
wouldn't be expecting it or looking for it all the time. They could
just eat a good meal and relax and think about/do other things. They
would be well-fed, but not waiting for the next bit in a few hrs.
They would learn food is not constantly coming.

I know this all might sound strange, but if you search the archives,
you'll see that many people have helped many issues by feeding less
frequently. Weight tends to stabilize, begging reduces, food-
obsessed dogs calm down, etc.

If you do this, it's a good idea to build up to it. Start reducing
the size of one meal and increasing the size of the other, until
you're feeding once a day. Then if you want, gradually go to every
other day by feeding a bigger meal one day and a snack or no meal the
next.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more/gorge/rest
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:

> Have you been following the discussions on gorge/fast (or gorge/rest)
> feeding here and on rawchat?

Hi Audrey,
Here is the link in case you are not a member of the rawchat group.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

I think that the thread which started out as Ginormous Dogs is perfect
for you to read because it is so applicable to your dogs. It just
kinda says it all. KathyM

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2. Re: Now - free range v feed lot. was anti-raw website... curious as
Posted by: "Nanette" nanettechols@gmail.com nanettechols
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:04 pm ((PST))

>
> *** Even the people feeding the feedlot animals have little idea what
> chemicals are in there. Only Archer Daniels Midland knows for sure! I
> try to avoid factory farmed meats as much as possible, not only because
> of the quality of the meat, but also because the inhumane practices
> that go on. However, the lowest quality raw meats are still superior to
> the highest "quality" kibble, so the affordability of grassfed and/or
> organic meat should not be factor in the decision to switch to raw.
> Switching to raw is always a good decision.
>
> --Carrie
>
Thanks for that I've been worried because we eat free range and can
barely afford it. I can't imagine if I got my boys on it and I was
worried that I had made a mistake and moved off of good kibble when I
could be making matters worse with all the feedlot chemicals.

Nanette
with Hagrid and Petey (Saint and Saint Something in St. Paul)

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Was: new member needs help getting started on raw/ Now :...
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:04 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, boswellrt@... wrote:

> My dogs are Border Collies.
> Should I mix anything with the deer because it is so lean?

Hi Trish,
Deer is a perfect food as is. There is no reason to add anything to
it. Just remember the 5% liver and 5% other organs and you should be
good to go. I adopted my smallest dog as a puppy. I always wanted an
aussie, and i found some "aussie x" puppies at a shelter. Now, a
couple of years later, Addie actually looks much more like a blue
merle bc than an aussie. My point is that even though she is my
smallest dog, the head, leg, rib, neck, ..deer bones covered with meat
are edible for her. KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
Posted by: "Monica Hughes" monicabeth10@yahoo.com monicabeth10
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:05 pm ((PST))

HI Melissa -

I am sure others will respond before me, but I want to point out that there's quite a bit of false logic on that website, which I've quickly skimmed.

First off, one group of people are singled out as radicals. Just take the opening sentence:

"A very small segment of pet owners have accepted the opinions of a vocal fringe minority of individuals who are currently proponents of feeding raw foods."

Ask yourself honestly how much more fearmongering you find on that site vs. on raw feeding sites. Also ask yourself if the majority is always right.

Second, the site addresses the BARF diet, not the prey model diet.

Third, yes, dogs probably did diverge evolutionarily from wolves about 100,000 years ago. The question is whether their mode of survival differed significantly in that time period as well. Exactly how much did the digestive system change, and how? This question is not answered in the article. The article is littered with assertions in this regard. For instance, this: "...today's naturally selected evolutionary model of domestic dogs does not have the ability to digest these bones in the same manner anyway." Hmmmm.. T

Then there's this tidbit: "The separation between wolf and domestic dog occurred 100,000 years ago, and yet Barfers choose to believe no internal changes occurred between the domestic dog and the wild wolf. Such an assumption is patently false." Immediately following, the author goes on the discuss the wolf eye as evidence that the wolf and dog digestive tracts are different. ?!? How about discussing the differences in a wolf's digestive track and teeth vs. a dog's, if they exist? Wowowowowow. I think my head is about to explode.

Arguing that vast evolutionary changes have taken place based on mitochondrial DNA is specious. I believe the change in wolf vs. dog mitochondrial DNA is around a half a percent (don't quote me on that, but it's definitely less than a percent.) Changes in mtDNA have also been used to infer evolutionary history in humans to determine where humans originally spread from. Just because some changes in mtDNA have occurred, one can't infer vast changes in physiology. We're all still the same species of human!! The author has not shown that there are any major physiological differences between dogs and wolves.

As for the lifespan myth, what is needed is a comparison of the wolf lifespan in captivity when fed its natural diet. It could well be longer with a raw diet. Comparing a prey model wild wolf with a captive commercial fed wolf is comparing apples and oranges.

Let's get back to that DNA. In humans, we are discovering that certain differences in DNA between individuals allow them to process (or not process) certain nutrients differently, and therefore, the diet must be tweaked slightly for different individuals to be completely optimal. I would not be surprised if this type of nutritional genotyping is eventually done in dogs 20-30 years down the road. After all, not all dogs respond exactly the same way to everything, and are not genetically uniform. (The drug selamectin adversely affects some collies but not others. It's based on a specific mutation.) Have dogs changed genetically from wolves? No doubt. Is a chihuahua genetically different from a great Dane? No doubt. Is it possible that there are minor differences in the way wolves and dogs process food? Yes, but it has not been shown. It's simply asserted.

Much is made of the fact? in the article that dogs can process carbs in kibble. I'm sure I could eat on McD's the rest of my life and subsist on it. It would hardly be healthy.

And if all the other problems with this article aren't bad enough, the author continues: "Handling of raw meat is fraught with danger."

Got that? Food is fraught with danger! Wow, folks, better grill those steaks right through. You know, you could die from eating rare steak! Gimme a break.... Actually, in my lifetime, I've known several people sick from food poisoning on mayo based products and salad bars in restaurants. I have never once met a person who has gotten sick or died from eating meat, although, yes, e. coli poisonings have occurred in the past year on beef and spinach.

Another priceless quote from this site: "We have looked at a couple of the hundreds of pets each year who end up as medical disasters in the veterinary clinic as a direct result of feeding the Barf diet."

I have no doubt that some dogs are dying from homemade diets done incorrectly. Anything is possible. However, how about the thousands of pets that died from eating kibble this past year?

Nothing but scaremongering there. Do some more reading on the prey model diet. I think you will eventually be convinced it is the right way to go.

Monica Hughes
PhD candidate
Forest Pathology and Mycology
SUNY-ESF
Syracuse, NY

---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
Posted by: "Monica Hughes" monicabeth10@yahoo.com monicabeth10
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:00 pm ((PST))

Oh and one more thing. The author of this nonsense says there are no board certified vets that are proponents of a BARF diet. Fine, but there are plenty that are proponents of the prey model diet.

Back in the early 80s, someone proposed that a bacterium was responsible for stomach ulcers. The entire medical community thought this person was a quack. Now, over 20 years later, that bacterium, H. pylori is commonly recognized as the cause of stomach ulcers. Whaddya know. Ever so slowly, the idea was accepted.

The medical and veterinary establishments are very quick to isolate anyone who disagrees with them. In the long run, this only hurts their credibility.

Monica

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:35 pm ((PST))

Feeding high sugar, high starch carbohydrates is not going to help with
weight loss...and all that sugar makes them want more. Satiety comes from
meat and fat. Ask any low carber! <g>

You *are* adding calories by feeding all that sugar...better to feed larger
more satisfying meals of food that will fill them up and benefit.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "divasdesignerstore" <divasdesignerstore@yahoo.com>

The amount of food I have been feeding them never seems to fill them
up or satisfy them and I do not want to increase it because like I
said they are already overweight. Adding the extra vegetarian food.
Helps them to feel full and satisfied and keeps them from begging,
whinning, and possibly eating a sock or two.
I have tried recreational bones but that doesn't fill them up it just
keeps them busy for about 10 minutes. Then back to scavenging for
something else. And I don't want to add any extra calories so edible
bones are out.

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: anti-raw website -- curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:00 pm ((PST))

>>P.S I attached a little piece I wrote (pdf file) that you might enjoy.
------------ --------- --------- --------- -

Hoping this finds you and yours "As Fit As A Butcher's Dog" <<

Lee, Karen, Buddy Bear and Holly -- oh, this is a great response!! But I want to read your "little piece" (I get the list in digest, so no pdf file attached). Would you consider sending it to me privately?
Thanks in advance!

-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: anti-raw website -- curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:28 pm ((PST))

Michael Moore <m-tak@...> wrote:
But I want to read your "little piece" (I get the list in digest, so no
pdf file attached). Would you consider sending it to me privately?
*****
Yahoo removes alll attachments. Perhaps a link to the pdf file might
be posted?
Chris o

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7. Re: all poultry?
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:01 pm ((PST))

>>Start slow on any new foods. I introduce all new meats to my now 14
week old Dane puppy over a week period. I'll give him a very small
portion during his morning meal only. A little more each day for a week
before any big parts are given. Not a single day of loose stool as of
yet. He eats chicken, turkey, beef, pork, fish, eggs, green tripe, and
venison as of now. <<

This is good advice with adult dogs, but IMO, unnecessary with puppies! I weaned my litter to raw and never introduced any foods in this manner. If I wanted to feed fish, I gave them fish; if vension was on the menu, they ate venison. Puppies seem to adapt to new foods quite reaidly with no issues whatsoever. I suspect your Dane puppy would have had no problems with any of the foods listed regardless of the way they were introduced.

-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Evie" archie.willow@yahoo.co.uk archie.willow
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:01 pm ((PST))

Hi Guys,
On another forum there is an on going debate as to how essential veg
and fruit are to a dogs diet.

I argue that it's not species appropriate, dogs are carnivores etc
etc. Have given ref etc to this point. No avail. I ask what
nutrients can a dog access from fruit and veg that they can't get
from meat bones and offal. The replies are below... I'm only
feeding prey model a year myself and I know my dogs are doing well on
it. Most members on this other site have changed their minds or
agree to disagree with me. But a few members seem to insist I'm
doing my dogs real harm by not adding the veg. Help me please prove
my point!

Here's some of their comments;
(On being asked what a dog can't get from a meat-only diet? ie. what
they get from vegetables? and not just unspecific "vitamins"
or "minerals".)
"chromium, selenium, iodine, vit a,b,e,d mannitol, carotin (essential
for vit a production) copper, magnesium, manganese, zinc,
potassium...do you want me to go on???"
"The most important thing that dogs need and must get from veg is
fibre - both soluble and insoluble. Dogs fed veg free diets are VERY
prone to diseases involving the failure of food to be absorbed,
pancreatic disease and other pancreatic problems such as sugar
diabetes and pancreatitis.

There are also all vitamin requirements to be found in veg - with the
exception of vitamin B12 of course, and it has to be said veg is also
low in thiamin and choline. To my knowledge, dogs are not going to
obtain vit C in sufficient quantity in bones and meat alone. I know
that supplements can be fed, but that is never as good as getting
vitamin and mineral requirement from a natural diet."

I feel like I'm going round in circles trying to educate these
people. *Sigh* All help appreciated.

Evie
x

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:21 pm ((PST))

Evie,

All of those vitamins and minerals they list...and fiber...are included in
meat, bones and organs. Wonder where in the world those little wolves are
getting their nutrients and fiber without someone to grind up fruits and
veggies for them??? Hmmmm......
And if they were required, why didn't nature provide them with the tooth
structure and digestive system necessary to process and derive nutrition
from veggies? They are right, vitamins should come from a natural
diet....but fruits and veggies are not natural for carnivores.

I would ask for proof from this person as it is complete nonsense!

"The most important thing that dogs need and must get from veg is
fibre - both soluble and insoluble. Dogs fed veg free diets are VERY
prone to diseases involving the failure of food to be absorbed,
pancreatic disease and other pancreatic problems such as sugar
diabetes and pancreatitis."

In fact, it is just the opposite....since dogs do not have the necessary
enzymes in their saliva to process carbohydrates, the pancreas has to
manufacture extra enzymes to digest them which puts strain on that organ.
Pancreatic disease and diabetes is caused by inappropriate foods.
http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

Here is an article that explains it in ferrets who are also carnivores.....
http://www.ferretclub.org.au/showcontent.toy?senid=101505&contentnid=106656

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Evie" <archie.willow@yahoo.co.uk>

"chromium, selenium, iodine, vit a,b,e,d mannitol, carotin (essential
for vit a production) copper, magnesium, manganese, zinc,
potassium...do you want me to go on???"
"The most important thing that dogs need and must get from veg is
fibre - both soluble and insoluble. Dogs fed veg free diets are VERY
prone to diseases involving the failure of food to be absorbed,
pancreatic disease and other pancreatic problems such as sugar
diabetes and pancreatitis.

There are also all vitamin requirements to be found in veg - with the
exception of vitamin B12 of course, and it has to be said veg is also
low in thiamin and choline. To my knowledge, dogs are not going to
obtain vit C in sufficient quantity in bones and meat alone. I know
that supplements can be fed, but that is never as good as getting
vitamin and mineral requirement from a natural diet."

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:35 pm ((PST))

Have this person look up the nutritional information of raw foods at

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

Selenium, vit A, B, E, D, copper, magnesium, manganese, zinc and
potassium are all found in, say, raw liver. Chromium and Iodine
aren't listed in that nutrient database but iodine is definitely in
fish and according to this website beef has lots of chromium (this
might not work as a hyperlink since the address is so long):
http://www.healthyeatingclub.com/info/books-
phds/books/foodfacts/html/data/data5m.html

As far as fiber they are confusing human and canine digestive
systems. Ask for something to back up their argument that a dog
needs anything other than what edible bone provides.

Dogs manufacture their own vitamin C, and raw foods also have vitamin
C in them. It sounds like this person has no idea how much stuff is
actually in raw foods. It's hard to convince people who are so sure
they are right. That's why I'm glad I have you brave souls to fight
the good fight. I love supplying ammo for you all, but I don't have
the stomach for it myself.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Evie" <archie.willow@...> wrote:

> Here's some of their comments;
> (On being asked what a dog can't get from a meat-only diet? ie.
> what they get from vegetables? and not just unspecific "vitamins"
> or "minerals".)
> "chromium, selenium, iodine, vit a,b,e,d mannitol, carotin
> (essential for vit a production) copper, magnesium, manganese,
> zinc, potassium...do you want me to go on???"

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

8d. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:15 pm ((PST))

Evie,
Don't waste your breath, time or energy. They won't listen! Just stay
here. We all agree!!!
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

8e. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:16 pm ((PST))

I find the fact that a coyote's mitochondrial DNA differs from a wolf's
by only 4% and a dog's differs by a scant .2% to be proof enough that
our housewolves should be fed what a proper wolf diet. Denise

From: "Evie" <archie.willow@...>
Dogs fed veg free diets are VERY prone to diseases involving the
failure of food to be absorbed, pancreatic disease and other pancreatic
problems such as sugar diabetes and pancreatitis.

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

8f. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:20 pm ((PST))

-----Original Message-----
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Andrea
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 2:35 PM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf
sometimes!

### maybe we should start force feeding horses and cows raw meat...they
must need the protein & fat? sheesh...
Chia & RiccoRecent Activity
a.. 117New Members
Visit Your Group
Cat Groups
on Yahoo! Groups

discuss everything

related to cats.

Parenting Zone
on Yahoo! Groups

Your one stop for

parenting groups.

Fitness Edge
on Yahoo! Groups

Learn how to

increase endurance.
.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

8g. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:14 pm ((PST))

> "The most important thing that dogs need and must get from veg is
> fibre - both soluble and insoluble. Dogs fed veg free diets are VERY
> prone to diseases involving the failure of food to be absorbed,
> pancreatic disease and other pancreatic problems such as sugar
> diabetes and pancreatitis.

Diabetes can develope due to diet or due to genetics or both. Dietary
induce diabeties is far far more common than diabeties from genetics.

Diabetes from food happens because the endocrine system including the
pancreas is over worked due to high levels of sugar (carbs) in the
diet. If the diet does not have carbs or has very few carbs, then the
pancreas is not over worked, and there is not logical reason to think
that a dog would develope diabeties.

Pancreatic disfunction can develope when a pancrease is overworked and
stressed, such as in having to digest lots of carbs. A raw, protein
and fat rich diet is far easier on a dogs pancreas than anything else.

A lack of sugar in the diet causing disease is a complete fraud that
only benefits the corporations that line ther pockets by selling high
carb foods. The exact oppsite is true, high amounts of sugar or carbs
in the diet cause disease, it causes the exact problems that these
people are claiming they prevent.

If you feel better feeding your dog vegetables, fine, feed them some
vegetables. Most vegetables are not going to be digested to any
extent by a dog without a lot of preprocessing on the vegetable. So
the vegetables will not do much harm, but they won't do any good
either. Vegetables are really a waste of money for carnivores, amd
really are not approiate, but if you feel you have to feed vegetables,
its not going to hurt much as long as its done in moderation.

Also, I highly suggest you stop feeding anything that is cooked.
Cooking food is pointless at best, and very likely damaging to the
dogs health. Cooking food does kill some bacteria, but it mainly
serves to enhance the flavor and tenderness of meats for humans. Dogs
are not affect by the bacteria in meat (and neither are we most of the
time) and they don't need the meat to be tender or have the flavor
enhanced to enjoy it.

If you really want to do what is best for your dog, feed them the way
they would eat in the wild, raw meat, bones and fat. Nothing cooked,
no fruit, no vegetables. Feed liver, heart muscle, etc. Feed them
any parts from a living creature that you can find, but never cook it.

Good Luck

Jamie

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

8h. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Pi" scribblekitten@yahoo.com scribblekitten
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:19 pm ((PST))

Chia wrote:
>
> ### maybe we should start force feeding horses and cows raw meat...they
> must need the protein & fat? sheesh...
> Chia & Ricco

I actually often say that to people who start on the veg thing with me
and it's one of the more successful comments. Once people look at it
that way it makes more sense to them. Of course, if they're totally
stuck on the idea that a dog is an omnivore then it doesn't work :(

-Anna +Pirate

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
Posted by: "Sherrel Leininger" meawolf50@yahoo.com meawolf50
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:02 pm ((PST))

I feed outside when I can but it is very cold here right now. I also feed in my kitchen. They tried going into the rooms where we have hard wood floors but I have had them bring it back to the kitchen so they kinda know now that they have to eat in the kitchen. I did have them eating in their crates when they just had blankets in them but they got new pads for christmas so I don't let them eat raw meat in on the new pads. Mostly they eat in the corners of the kitchen or outside. I just spray and mop those corners after each meal. When it is warmer they will eat outside all the time.

Sherrel, Daisy and Lilly
Jeromesville, Ohio

____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: RAW causing sking issues? (LONG POST)
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mcburkel" <morsgreatdanes@...> wrote:
>
> My danes have alot of white and you can see the skin under the fur
> and the skin is reddish blotches about as big as a pencil eraser.
> Some of them turn into a bump. Mostly around the neck and a few on
> the back, usually.
>
> The only thing that I can think of is that they have been ultra picky
> latley and are getting more chicken, such as they will eat a little
> bit of the turkey and I make them wait until next day when its
> chicken day. I try not to spoil them that way.
>
> Please help... Need more info just ask!!
>
> Marian
>
***

I may be in the minority here, but I think chicken is evil for some
dogs. Before raw, but especially after we fed exclusively chicken, my
standard poodle has been plagued with skin issues just like the ones
you describe. Since I took chicken off the menu, no new eruptions, his
hair is growing back and the malessezia on his belly is resolving.
Other proteins can be expensive, but it's worth a try. Nothing
ventured, nothing gained, right.

Pamela Picard
http://www.pet-wellness-update.com
http://aimees-law.blogspot.com/
aimees_law-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

***Sign the petition***
Exempt Sick & Senior Pets from Rabies Shots
http://www.petitiononline.com/tdsh2007/petition.html

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Refusal
Posted by: "Sarah" shadyburger10@sbcglobal.net shadyburger10
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:18 pm ((PST))

Thx to all,

I'm gonna try all those suggestions. Oh, one other thing... she IS
guarding from the other dogs. So she does see it as "her's". She will
hold it in her mouth and lick it.

I'll try a few other thing mentions

Thanks again,

Sarah Burger
Dayton, OH

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: Refusal
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:56 pm ((PST))

Hi Sarah,

That could be another piece to the puzzle, too. Can you make sure
she's not stressed when eating? Feed her further away from the others,
or in a crate or a separate room or behind a baby gate or something?

Just a thought,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah" <shadyburger10@...> wrote:
>... she IS
> guarding from the other dogs.

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12. vegetation happens
Posted by: "Kate" kcauley@hotmail.com simcoi
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:16 pm ((PST))

Happy New Year
Long time listener first time caller.
Simon is my GHLM*, and he started raw on January one 2008.
*Simon is a GreyHound Lab Mix and he looks a lot like Santa's lil'
helper from the Simpsons. Last year, what little pedigree Simon has,
got hold of him in the worst way. He was diagnosed with glaucoma. His
optometrist said it is a rare form of glaucoma which is prevalent in
some greyhounds. Deficiencies aside I am living with my most favorite
dog in the whole world. (…he made me write that.) So he's blind in one
eye, nine years old and otherwise in excellent condition. Born and
adopted on kibble I remember never being happy with the food I gave
him. I'd go from bag to bag over the years and watch his symptoms
become more and more frequent. He'd get a mysterious rash in his ear,
bad breath, and don't get me started on the poop. I did what I could,
buying the more expensive/natural/hogwash bag of food, which only made
me feel more powerless and frustrated because I was still unsatisfied
with his health. These few days of switching to raw has given me more
of a sense of his nutrition than ever before, because frankly I wasn't
reading the back of the bag I was too busy with the pretty picture of
a lamb hugging the sweet potato on the front. I too wish I'd switched
years ago. The thought of trusting a company that sells a bag for
profit that doesn't need a FDA premarket approval, which
commercializes and industrializes every step of the way to convince
you that it is "Safe and Nutritious", by non regulated standards…It's
my epiphany! It will be interesting to look for signs of change in
Simon, and it's inspired me to eat better as well.

I really enjoy the first time meal stories, both dog and owner
experience, so here's Simon's
Simon is a sensitive guy. Sometimes I pause when he looks at me, as if
he is in doubt just making sure the world is right, so it was no
surprise to see his reaction the other night when I fed him his first
bowl of chicken backs in the backyard. (As the self proclaimed Martha
Stewart of dog fancy, I hand threw his bowl and engobed Hirschfeldin
caricatures of himself inside for his Christmas present.) We stood
there in the cold and he looked at me as if I'd just left the BBQ on
the porch. After a bit of coaxing he took a piece and self-consciously
moved into the yard. He started removing the skin. He looked around, I
had to hide in order to watch him, he was nervous. Then crunch,
crunch. No hording gulper here. As I watched I thought about the
advice given on the site and noted to myself, "I know there is
controversy over this issue; I for one believe vegetation happens!
Especially in an unraked backyard with a sticky meal." Nothing seemed
to bother him during his second feeding I enjoy watching his
scissor-face in action. It all makes sense. My thanks to this site and
people like Sandee and Bill. Simon and I have made the switch.
Kate Cauley

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13. chicken with the bones too?
Posted by: "lifted_trucks_21" lifted_trucks_21@yahoo.com lifted_trucks_21
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:19 pm ((PST))

i know i know i need to look at questions already answer but still
> kinda lost. thank you for everyones info. i guess chicken would be
> best for him i take it. frozen so im not cooking it im giving him the
> raw chicken... right??? confused about it. i will look at older posts
> to get more info but just kinda confused on how to start. and i fast
> my dog? so i feed him then dont feed him??? so if you were in my
shoes
> with my 120lb boy what steps would you take?? thanks everyone sorry
im
> clueless even with all the great help. mari
>

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14a. books
Posted by: "lifted_trucks_21" lifted_trucks_21@yahoo.com lifted_trucks_21
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:19 pm ((PST))

are there any good books out i can buy and get deep in this raw
subject. i just need to see what he can eat what kind of menu i can
set him up to budget his weekly needs. thanks everyone. mari

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------