[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12453

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Gullet
From: laura.wimpey

2a. Re: poo consistency
From: Andrea

3a. Re: Leaving RMB's out overnight - indoors?
From: Andrea

4a. Re: questions about feeding raw
From: Andrea

5a. Starting raw with my boys
From: godkrittersnkids
5b. Re: Starting raw with my boys
From: carnesbill
5c. Re: Starting raw with my boys
From: Amy Tracy

6a. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
From: carnesbill
6b. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
From: costrowski75
6c. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
From: certaintragedies

7a. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
From: steph.sorensen

8a. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
From: Andrea
8b. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
From: adkjoe17

9a. All poultry?
From: Linda Baldwin
9b. Re: All poultry?
From: carnesbill
9c. Re: All poultry?
From: emil smolensky
9d. Re: All poultry?
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Hello & Intro
From: Andrea

11a. Re: Meal frequency for "large" and active dogs?
From: Tina Berry
11b. Re: Meal frequency for "large" and active dogs?
From: Robert Ekendahl

12a. Re: Was: new member needs help getting started on raw/ Now :...
From: boswellrt@aol.com

13. Introduction and my feeding indoors answer
From: jjareski

14a. Re: a few questions/3rd or 4th week
From: Andrea

15a. Re: introducing new protein.
From: Andrea

16. Re: RAW causing skin issues?
From: Susan Fortune

Messages
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1a. Re: Gullet
Posted by: "laura.wimpey" laura.wimpey@yahoo.com laura.wimpey
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:41 am ((PST))

Perhaps the first message I've posted where I didn't fill space talking
about what kind of dogs I have...shoot.

My dogs eat less than 1 lb of food per meal once a day 7 days a week.
They are a 30 lb english setter and a 45lb mix.

A 1 lb gullett is one meal for one dog. Compared to say...pork necks,
or say...something else boney - they are a meaty meal (in fact, the
gullets followed a particularly bone heavy meal the day before). The
combination of "nice meaty meal" was not accurate and very well could
be misinterpreted - sincerest apologies for being excitedly vague.

Regards,
Laura W.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> > To
help others who may not remember what sort of dogs are being fed, we
> all need to remember to provide a reference for comparison. >

Messages in this topic (12)
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2a. Re: poo consistency
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:45 am ((PST))

> I'm just wondering how important it is for her stool to be consistent
> day in and day out.

Not important at all unless you feed the same thing day in and day out
(which is almost impossible unless you feed doom nuggets). I pay
attention to the consistency of stools only to see if what comes out
reflects what went in.

> Or since I'm a newbie should I do more weighing.

Oh, gosh, no! Eyeballing is a perfectly acceptable way of feeding.
Going by how your girl looks and not a specific amount of food means it
will be much easier for you to adjust as needed. Keep up the good work!

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Leaving RMB's out overnight - indoors?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:53 am ((PST))

I don't like leaving the food with the dogs overnight only because
*someone* is likely to move it to the couch, my slippers, the pillow,
etc. by morning. Not to mention I'm not "there" to supervise. I
usually put leftovers back in the fridge but every once in a while bf
will feed the boys and forget to pick up the leftovers when we go to
sleep (read: I'm already asleep on the couch). In the morning they
seem to enjoy the breakfast snack once we come out of the bedroom.

Since it's rediculously cold where you live I wouldn't worry about
leaving food out overnight, just not so that the Frenchies could eat
while you are asleep.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne MacLeod" <suzmacleod@...>
wrote:

> do you leave a rmb out overnight on their feeding blankie, or do
> you guys pick it up and put it in the fridge, when it comes time to
> go to beddies?

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: questions about feeding raw
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 7:03 am ((PST))

> when feeding raw meaty bones is their a high insedince for the dog
> to get hurt inside of its body(stomach, intestines) from bone
> fragments?

No, dogs have everything they need to digest raw animal parts without
getting hurt. The key here is feeding *raw* *meaty* bones. Never
feed cooked bones and never feed bare nekkid bones.

> i want to know if what i have been reading about the raw diet
> eventually makes the dogs sick true? like from parasites, worms,
> and pancreatitus?

Like Bill said, kibble has only been around for a short time. Before
that dogs ate a much more appropriate diet. There's a reason for the
old saying "As healthy as a butcher's dog." A raw fed dog is a happy
dog. Most of us feed our dogs with human grade meat so there is no
fear of parasites. For those of us who are lucky enough to feed wild
game you can just freeze the food solid for a couple of weeks to kill
any parasites.

> if they are eating ecoli,salmanila, parasites is it safe to kiss
> them and let them lick you?

Even if the meat they were eating was covered in bacteria it would
still be safe for them to lick you. But not all meat is covered in a
huge amount of bacteria, and lots of kibbles have the same bacteria
on them.

> i know these question are probley stupid but im a little
> nervous.

No such thing as stupid questions, that's the only way we learn about
all of this. Feel free to ask more questions when they come up.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Starting raw with my boys
Posted by: "godkrittersnkids" godkrittersnkids@yahoo.com godkrittersnkids
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 7:05 am ((PST))

I have read all the posts for the last month or so (I know, lurker
deluxe!), and I have a question.

Jackie, an 8-yr-old Lab, and Lonnie, a 14-1/2-yr-old BC mix, are
beginning their raw journey this weekend.

In the past, they've been able to 'clear a room,' if you get what I
mean, after having had a small treat of chicken...however, this was
obviously cooked.

In your wonderfully experienced opinions, do I brace myself for this,
especially at the beginning, or is that after-effect caused by the fact
the chicken was cooked first?

Thank you in advance for your help; you are all amazing, so willing to
share your knowledge and experiences with those of us just starting out
into the world of raw!

Linda
Jackie, Lonnie, and AnnaNanna, a soon-to-be-rawfed kitty, too!

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Starting raw with my boys
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 7:48 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "godkrittersnkids"
<godkrittersnkids@...> wrote:
>
> In your wonderfully experienced opinions, do I brace myself
> for this, especially at the beginning, or is that
> after-effect caused by the factthe chicken was cooked first?

I think it was more because you were mixing kibble and meat. No, it
is usually not a problem. That doesn't mean your dogs will never pass
gas, just that it shouldn't be any more than now and probably less.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Starting raw with my boys
Posted by: "Amy Tracy" amypatriciatracy@gmail.com rosiesmomlovesrosie
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 9:57 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

We're on month two and the gas is pretty much gone ... except for
little feathered poofs here and there. I must tell you, however, that
IMO it wouldn't hurt to brace yourself. The first few weeks of the
diet, my roommate and I were chased away from many a room by violent
smelling whoppers that Rosie lobbed with regularity. She had this gas
even as she was loving her diet and pooing normally. Hey, consider it
a blessing if it doesn't happen, but it can't hurt to loosen those
storm windows just in case. Best of luck.
Amy (and Rosie)

On 1/3/08, carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "godkrittersnkids"
> <godkrittersnkids@...> wrote:
> >
> > In your wonderfully experienced opinions, do I brace myself
> > for this, especially at the beginning, or is that
> > after-effect caused by the factthe chicken was cooked first?
>
> I think it was more because you were mixing kibble and meat. No, it
> is usually not a problem. That doesn't mean your dogs will never pass
> gas, just that it shouldn't be any more than now and probably less.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 7:05 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "certaintragedies"
<inaudibly@...> wrote:
>
> Is it too late to make the switch?

No, If they are breathing, it's not too late to switch. :) I
switched my 2 Golden Retrievers at age 10 several years ago. The
only problems they had was related to veggies. I think my first
book was the same one you read. Veggies aren't needed or desired.

> I've heard that for older dogs it
> is essential to add some probiotic supplements to make the
> change go smoothly.

Not needed.

> I haven't found any supplements in tablet form, but I've
> read this can be done by adding some yoghurt to their diet
> as well. Is
> this true, and if so, how much yoghurt should I add?

No supplements needed. Only meat, bones, and organs from a variety
of animals.

> Are there any other dangers with making the switch to raw at
> an older age?

Nope, no dangers at all.

> I've also read that when you make the switch to raw, you should
> start off with a bland and simple diet. Any examples of what food
> would be good for this?

I always suggest beginning with chicken. Nothing but chicken for 2
weeks, either chicken parts or whole chickens.

> I am going with 70% RMB, 10% muscle meat and 20% veg. Should
> I introduce just the RMB first, then slowly add the veg and the
> muscle meat?

The thought process you are using will confuse you and make matters
much more difficult than they need to be. Forget RMB and muscle
meat. Think in terms of whole animals or animal parts. Forget
percentages. THey aren't important. If you feed a variety of
animal parts from a variety of animals, all the percentages will
work out over time.

Forget veggies. Dogs are carnivores. Carnivores eat meat, bones,
and organs of any animal they can catch and kill. Omnivores eat
veggies and meat and dogs are NOT omnivores.

> My dogs eat outdoors. They are indoor dogs, but they have constant
> access to our fenced yard and their food bowls get put
> down outside at feeding time. Is this a problem, salmonella-wise?

No, not at all. I think most of us feed indoors but it's absolutely
no problem to feed outside. Many do. Forget salmonella ... it's
just not a problem.

> Lastly, how long will it be before I start seeing results?
> Not that I am impatient, but I want to know when I will be able
> to tell if raw works better for my dogs. A month? Two months?

It depends on what kind of results you need. Teeth will begin to
clean up almost immediately. Coats will start looking better in a
week or so. Runny eyes will clean up pretty fast. Skin allergy
problems can take a few months to clear up.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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6b. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 9:20 am ((PST))

"certaintragedies" <inaudibly@...> wrote:
> Is it too late to make the switch?
*****
Nope. However you find you need to customize their menu, there is a
way to feed raw to any dog at any time.

I've heard that for older dogs it
> is essential to add some probiotic supplements to make the change go
> smoothly.
*****
I have never used probiotics on a newbie dog. I have fed probiotics
for certain health issues like pancreatitis and antibiotics but
feeding probiotics "just because" has never been in my plan book. I
think you should focus on the the right food and address issues
if/when they arise. Don't look for trouble where there isn't any.

The way you provide a smooth transition is to feed simply, gently and
and in as many (or few) daily meals as you need to. Some digestive
systems can be awakened quickly, others need to be brought slowly
into action.

I started two dogs at seven years and did not have to adjust for "old
dog" issues until they were getting on to 12, and those were
adequately addressed by feeding more smaller meals several times a
day, reducing fat, and offering kindler, gentler bones.

I've
> read this can be done by adding some yoghurt to their diet as well.
Is
> this true, and if so, how much yoghurt should I add?
*****
I've read that, too, but the amount of yogurt you'd need to goose up
the good biota would almost certainly produce digestive upset on its
own. If you simply cannot bear to begin without a probiotic, buy a
quality human grade product and cut to the chase. When your dogs
have adjusted to raw, you can feed small amounts of yogurt as a
treat. Bide your time.

Are there any other dangers with making the switch to raw at an older
> age?
*****
Same issues as with any age dog: feeding too much food, feeding too
much fat, feeding too much variety to quickly. Go slow, keep it
simple, retreat and simplify if reception is breaking up.

I've also read that when you make the switch to raw, you should
> start off with a bland and simple diet. Any examples of what food
> would be good for this? I am going with 70% RMB, 10% muscle meat and
> 20% veg. Should I introduce just the RMB first, then slowly add the
> veg and the muscle meat?
*****
Stop thinking about arbitrary terms like "RMBs". What that word
means is edible bone with meat on it. How much meat? How much
bone? Can't tell from that term, no way.

There are three elements to a good raw diet.
--meat (off the bone, on the bone, its presentation matters less than
its presence)
--edible bone
--organs

Meat should dominate the menu. Always. You can easily feed as much
as 85% of the diet as meat (fat, skin, connective tissue, flesh).

Edible bones, however they are presented, are essential but should
absolutely not rule the roost; even for and perhaps especially for a
senior dog as little as 10% of the menu can safely and comfortably be
bone.

And organs fill in the remaining holes. Focus on liver (eventually,
no need to consider it now); whatever other organ-y things appear in
your shopping cart along the way are interesting additions.

There is NO place in the menu for measurable veggies. Don't even
consider offering them a spot on the menu. That 20% should be filled
by meat. Always make room for meat.

If you can provide 70% of your dogs' food as sumptuously, lavishly
meaty bone, fine. But there are few. This is a short list of RMBs
that are widely recommended but CANNOT support 70% of the menu:
chicken necks
chicken wings
chicken backs
chicken leg quarters
pork neck bones
pork hocks
beef ribs
beef necks
turkey wings
turkey necks
turkey backs
turkey legs
lamb necks

The notion of 70% RMB I think comes from misrepresentation of RMBs as
half meat and half bone. While even that split would not deliver
enough meat to a carnivore (or conversely, would deliver much more
bone than is required), most RMBs are not even close to 50% meat.
There are few if any RMBs that deliver so much meat that additional
meat is unnecessary. And these would be better called "body parts",
like legs or shoulders.

So just forget the 70% RMB thing. All you'll end up doing is feeding
too much bone, meal after meal. Feed whatever bone-in body part you
want to feed for the bone, and feed lots and lots of meat.

> My dogs eat outdoors. They are indoor dogs, but they have constant
> access to our fenced yard and their food bowls get put down outside
at
> feeding time. Is this a problem, salmonella-wise
*****
Heck, even if you don't use bowls, feeding outside is not a problem
salmonella-wise, not any more of a problem than it is now. This is
just not the issue the uneducated or the fear-mongers make it out to
be. I feed outside and inside and in kennels and in crates and on
towels and on tarps and on vinyl tablecloths and it all works.
Choose one, make it yours.

> Lastly, how long will it be before I start seeing results?
*****
Raw food is not a miracle drug, though it can certainly produce some
wondrous changes. Since even when switching kibble you cannot expect
to see changes in less than three months or so, you should not apply
unrealistic deadlines to the move to raw food. And before you should
start looking for changes in your dogs, you have to get comfortable
with the menu. So if you need several months to develop a menu that
works for your dogs, you'll need to allow several months beyond that
at least for your dogs. However, superficial changes like cleaner
teeth, fresher breath, less stool and perhaps even better coat and
less itching may be seen within weeks.

I want to know when I will be able to tell if raw
> works better for my dogs.
*****
Switching to raw is not a matter of if. It most certainly will work
better for your dogs. The issue is when and that depends on what you
do and what you're looking for.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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6c. Re: Switching to raw for older dogs
Posted by: "certaintragedies" inaudibly@gmail.com certaintragedies
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 9:57 am ((PST))

Thank you all so much for your replies.

I'm in a bit of a dilemma now though. I can't decide whether to make
the change or not. I did some more research and found some information
on how a domesticated dog is vastly different from a wolf and so their
dietary needs are different:

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/barf-myth.html

And the other thing I also discovered was the danger of torn
intestines because of bones, as well as problems with phosphorus and
calcium levels and bacteria because of imbalanced diets. It seems like
feeding raw is really an art that you have to perfect and I don't know
if I want to take that risk with my girls.

I think I'm going to start Spunky (the 10 year old with a skin
problem) on raw first...mostly because I don't really have much
choice, grainless kibble is extremely expensive here.

Last question: How small should the pieces of chicken quarter be when
I give them to her? Do I need to chop it up or do I throw the whole
quarter into her bowl? What is the danger of her choking or suffering
internal damage from one of the bones?

Sorry for all the questions and excessive worrying. This is a big
change for me and my dogs and I really want to be prepared for it.

-Melissa

Messages in this topic (7)
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7a. Re: anti-raw website... curious as to your thoughts?
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 7:05 am ((PST))

Forget all the links for a second and just focus on the home page.
The "information" (if you could call it that) on wild dogs doesn't
even make sense!! Where in the h-e-double hockey sticks is she
getting her information?? Uh, hello, have you heard of WILDLIFE
BIOLOGY? Did you also happen to know that wolves and other wild
canines have been successfully consuming raw food for the last few
million years??

Well, I suppose they COULD have ransacked a village at some point,
taken their utensils, fired up the ol' firepit and roasted rabbit on
a stick.

Again, just another anti-raw website with no real facts to support
the claim.

Sheesh!

-Steph and the girls

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, MORGAN LEWIS
<shadowland22000@...> wrote:
>
> Ph.D. in WHAT? Sounds like the clowns at the hospital my dad was
ate. They threw a tantrum because I was bringing him a milk shake
every day (with those candy pieces). Oh we don't know the amount he
is drinking or the caloric content. well the answer to that was that
I knew the caloric content of what they were feeding him (ZERO)
because he would not eat it. And the milk shake was made at the
hospital (Dairy Queen) size and caloric content available.
>
> His Statement "most wolves are undernurished". is that due to
quality or quantity of food. but he promotes "cooked Receipts" . One
of my daughters does this; I have no major problems with it, as long
as there are no cooked bones. Since I switched to RAW 3 1/2 years
ago; I have had no health problems, no allergies, (I also stopped
vaccines). My dogs are checked annually, cardiac, thyroid. My Vet is
amazed, My dogs and I are happy. and our 1st natual, RAW pups will
be born this Spring (no vaccines) So I have a very good use for this
book. Use it like an "old" Sears and Robuck Catalogue. or better yet
save the money and buy some good beef hearts. Morgan
>
>
> Morgan and His Angels
> Precious, OFA
> Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with
Yahoo! Search.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (12)
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8a. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 7:14 am ((PST))

It's actually much easier to get a dog to eat in a certain spot than
you would think. Lay out the towel, put the food on it and let the
dog eat. If the dog starts to go away with the food, gently place
the food back on the towel and explain that the towel is the eating
spot. After a couple of times putting the food back on the towel
they get the idea. It's also a good idea to put the towel in a
corner or somewhere that isn't out in the open.

As far as people getting sick from the food, just use your same
cleaning practices. You can wash the towel after every use or you
can use a vinyl tablecloth instead that you can spritz with a
vinegar/water solution after every meal. Your girl will keep herself
clean, but you can always wipe down her feet with a damp towel if you
like. My bf was fanatic about cleaning when we started raw feeding
but in time he got over it. Germs aren't really as scary as Lysol
would have you believe, but it takes time to believe it. Go at your
own pace and if you are never ok with not washing the food towel,
that's ok too.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lisa-Gray Vick <sunbeams412@...>
wrote:

To lay down a tablecloth for her to eat on and then pick it up and
reuse several times before washing still doesn't register with me
because her paws are going to be all over it as well as the meat and
bones and then all over us and the house. I know it works for people
out there so I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just asking how
does it work?

Messages in this topic (10)
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8b. Re: Feeding Indoors? I'm a Newbie
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 7:48 am ((PST))

Why not let the dog eat it's meals outdoors, no cleanup no worries...

Joe

Messages in this topic (10)
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9a. All poultry?
Posted by: "Linda Baldwin" ljbcandr@yahoo.com ljbcandr
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 7:20 am ((PST))

My 16 month golden retriever has been doing wonderful on chicken carcass, thighs and turkey necks - hasn't had any trouble with the bones. Whenever I try and introduce something else (pork or beef) he gets the runs. In fact, if he has anything different (I tried a piece of bacon, liver) he gets very foul gas. I'm wondering if he's going to be a poultry only kind of dog - if that's feasible. If so, what nutrients do I need to add to his diet? (He does eat cod liver oil pills with no reaction)
Linda
ljbcandr.cogeco.ca

____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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9b. Re: All poultry?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 7:48 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Linda Baldwin <ljbcandr@...>
wrote:
>
> Whenever I try and introduce something else (pork or beef) he
> gets the runs. In fact, if he has anything different (I tried
> a piece of bacon, liver) he gets very foul gas.

Exactly how are you introducing new meat? I would stay away from
bacon and stay away from liver for now. Bacon is never a prime cut
of meat and liver has a tendency to cause loose stools if begun too
early in the diet.

> I'm wondering if he's going to be a poultry only kind of dog -
> if that's feasible.

I doubt it. I'm sure he will be able to handle other meats pretty
soon. Try introducing very small amounts with a normal meal of
chicken or turkey. Just a piece of something.

> If so, what nutrients do I need to add to his diet? (He does eat
cod liver oil pills with no reaction)

Unless he has a health problem you didn't mention, he doesn't need
any supplements including the CLO.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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9c. Re: All poultry?
Posted by: "emil smolensky" esmolensky@yahoo.com esmolensky
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:44 am ((PST))

have you tried to introduce beef-pork in little increments or all at once? If it's all at once, I can see why your goldie is having trouble. My dog did the same when I didn't know better. Try to give him a piece of pork along with the chicken or turkey.
E & Reagan

----- Original Message ----
From: Linda Baldwin <ljbcandr@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2008 10:16:31 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] All poultry?

My 16 month golden retriever has been doing wonderful on chicken carcass, thighs and turkey necks - hasn't had any trouble with the bones. Whenever I try and introduce something else (pork or beef) he gets the runs. In fact, if he has anything different (I tried a piece of bacon, liver) he gets very foul gas. I'm wondering if he's going to be a poultry only kind of dog - if that's feasible. If so, what nutrients do I need to add to his diet? (He does eat cod liver oil pills with no reaction)

Linda

ljbcandr.cogeco. ca

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Messages in this topic (4)
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9d. Re: All poultry?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 9:45 am ((PST))

Linda Baldwin <ljbcandr@...> wrote:
>
> My 16 month golden retriever has been doing wonderful on chicken
carcass, thighs and turkey necks - hasn't had any trouble with the
bones. Whenever I try and introduce something else (pork or beef) he
gets the runs.
*****
Anything new introduced quickly is likely to produce loose stools.
This is a normal response. You are creating your own miseries by
abruply thrusting these changes on your dog. Back off, add small
amounts of new meat to those bony meals you feed, give your lovely
youngster time to adjust.

A good raw diet is mostly meat, some edible bone, some organs. A
good raw diet relies on meat variety as well as body part variety for
optimal health. I suggest you are feeding neither. Please consider
reworking the menu to reduce the presence of bone and greatly
increase the amount of meat you feed.

The supplements you need to add are meat and meat. Otherwise, none
needed. Cod liver oil is less useful than you think. For additional
Omega 3 fatty acids, use fish BODY oil; if you are supplementing CLO
for any other reason, stop. It doesn't deliver practical amounts of
Omega 3 and what it does deliver is not necessary.

Chris O
Two goldens, one Lab, one border collie, two cats

Messages in this topic (4)
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10a. Re: Hello & Intro
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 7:31 am ((PST))

> I recall reading that I shouldn't go with anything smaller than his
> mellon?

Generally that's the safe way to go. Some people have polite dogs
who won't try to eat like snakes and they can give their dogs
something smaller. I'm not so lucky. It's a know they dog thing.

> Would I give them each one? I'm afraid they'll never stop eating!

For me it was easiest to give something big and take it away when I
deemed they had enough. Eventually they learned to self regulate
well enough, but that more often than not comes with time.

> with those prices I'll have to do some investigating.

Where do you live? There are many areas that have buying groups or
co-ops for raw feeders. Getting a freezer will help so you can buy
in bulk and stock up when there are sales. Know any hunters?

> if I get a good deal on say, boneless red meat, chicken, pork loin,
> do I cut it in cubes or let them suck it down?

If I get a great deal on boneless meat that is choke-tastic size, I
freeze a bunch together and feed it as a semi-frozen chunk. Chopping
up meat only seems to encourage my little vaccuums.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: Meal frequency for "large" and active dogs?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 7:48 am ((PST))

"Wow, you are keeping your dogs on the thin side, as recommended weight
would be 1.8 lbs for a 90lbs dog. Do they really gain weight if you feed
them more?"

Oh yeah, they got extra bones for xmas and new years and now they are all 5
lbs over weight (maybe a little less).

The recommended weight is just that, an estimated recommendation. My pups
eat more than my 3 yo adult male but they are more active. Baron's working
weight is around 94lbs and he is lean but not too skinny at that weight. My
mom thinks my dogs are skinny being 5lbs heavy right now - but you can't see
their ribs right now and ideally you should barely be able to see their ribs
thru a smooth coat - long hairs are harder, you just have to feel them since
you can't see their ribs. Baron is a plush coat, so usually have to feel
his ribs, but you can barely see them at his working weight. The other
three are smooth coats and their ribs can easily be seen at their ideal
weights.

So I roughly feed 2% sometimes they get huge meals, sometimes not.
Sometimes they get way too many meaty bones when I want to relax and they
insist on playing. So it all works out - I end up feeding the way they
look, cut back if they get heavy (like now) and more if they are too thin
which usually isn't the case in the winter time.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (6)
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11b. Re: Meal frequency for "large" and active dogs?
Posted by: "Robert Ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 9:56 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.

è Last night was the first change from only chicken backs, as both dogs
where constipated. They received a large chicken leg (< 1 lbs each) for
dinner and loved it. My large dog was very careful and it took him >7
minutes to enjoy the food and seemed content afterwards. So for now I'm
keeping 2xday with chicken backs in the morning and something much meatier
at night. Intermittently on weekend I'll feed them one large meal, if I
want to take it slow.

Oh yeah, they got extra bones for xmas and new years and now they are all 5
lbs over weight (maybe a little less).

è Thanks for the tip, I might have to cut my big boy down more if he
doesn't start to loose weight. That said in my mind he looks a little leaner
already, probably just water being passed by lower insulin levels, but I
will keep him at this meal size for now as I don't want to starve him
either. I'm already feeding him like a 90 lbs dog even though he currently
is 100 lbs and I think his "working" weight is ~95 lbs.

My mom thinks my dogs are skinny being 5lbs heavy right now - but you can't
see
their ribs right now and ideally you should barely be able to see their ribs
thru a smooth coat

è I agree with this. Both my dogs have very short/smooth coat. You can
see his ribs when moving and slightly his last when standing. So he's not
"that" bad, still before you could see the ribs better a couple of months
ago.

So it all works out - I end up feeding the way they look, cut back if they
get heavy (like now) and more if they are too thin
which usually isn't the case in the winter time.

è I agree this should work great once you "know" your dog. I don't want
to starve my dog and I don't know his reaction to raw protein so I'm keeping
my current portion size for now until I see results one way or the other. I
was pretty convinced I was underfeeding him but now I'm more open to that I
might be overfeeding him

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Messages in this topic (6)
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12a. Re: Was: new member needs help getting started on raw/ Now :...
Posted by: "boswellrt@aol.com" boswellrt@aol.com boswellsbordercollies
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:02 am ((PST))

Thanks Kathy,
My dogs are Border Collies. I would like to use as much of the deer if
possible and waste nothing. The processor doesn't use the bones anyway so I
would like to get as many as I can next time I go. I can also do the same when
Turkey season starts here.
Should I mix anything with the deer because it is so lean?

Trish
G-Force Border Collies

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

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Messages in this topic (3)
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13. Introduction and my feeding indoors answer
Posted by: "jjareski" jjareski1@hotmail.com jjareski
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:02 am ((PST))

I was never big on crates if I'm at work etc and my dog gets sick I
don't want them sitting in it or hurt them self's waiting. They are
my kids and I worry too much. When I started raw to minimize any
possibility of a fight over food and the meat being pulled around the
house I got crates. I say dinner bam my crate haters are in and
waiting. With this being a high prized meal they feel safer. I know
they have never bit anyone (I can take food from them) I would never
trust a kid or person they don't know to grab it. Also it is so easy
to just wipe the plastic down with a safe cleaner.

So I'm new and spent all day yesterday reading till my eyes gave
out. I help a Siberian Rescue and it has been the most fulfilling
thing I've done with my life. After picking everybody's brain to
death in my group I switched to Raw. That could be why they sent me
here LOL. Everyday I'm learning more and more in just a week I
thought I was crazy. I just wanted this diet to solve my 9yr old
cattle dogs browning teeth well I got that and soooo much more I will
never feed kibble again. Thank you everyone in the group for helping
me expand in my new diet. If you would like to see my kids the both
have dogster pages http://www.dogster.com/dogs/627476 is my 3yr old
Sibe and http://www.dogster.com/dogs/627494 is my 9yr old Cattle

Have A Great Day

Josie, Gizmo & Sadie

Messages in this topic (1)
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14a. Re: a few questions/3rd or 4th week
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:04 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "marge" <marge_moriarty17551@...>
wrote:

> Pepper began to have some vomitting. Nothing serious and it cleared
> up when I backed off and increased the chicken.

What kind of vomiting was this? Was Pepper vomiting the food or just
bile? Was the food close to its original state? Did the vomiting
happen right away?

> How have others introduced fish?

Are you giving canned salmon or fresh? My first attempt at fish was
a big failure, I gave my puppy a whole fish and later that night he
vomited the whole thing on my bed. Since them I give them half a
meal of fish and half regular food. I'm not concerned about loose
stool but vomit I could do without.

> Should I continue to push pork...is cutting back and increasing the
> amount the right way to go?

Slowly building up bowel tolerance is a good way to go. If the vomit
is because the food is eaten too quickly the best thing to do is feed
a larger piece that they have to work on. Pick up the food after
they have eaten enough.

> Another thing. Given the guy are mini poos they only need between
> 6-7 ounces a day...I don't feel I get to give them any real big
> hunks of meat.

You can still feed big chunks of meat and bone, just pick it up when
they have eaten a meal's worth. It takes more effort on your part
but it enables you to feed more things. If they over eat at first it
isn't a big deal, you'll figure things out as you go along.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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15a. Re: introducing new protein.
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:25 am ((PST))

If he's had problems digesting new foods in the past you might want
to give a bit of the pork with a normal meal. Slowly increase the
bit of pork every day until he's eating a whole meal of pork. My
dogs would get loose stools with a new protein but rarely anything
worse than that, so I usually start with at least a half meal of the
new stuff. If you are concerned just go slowly so you can backtrack
if needed.

If he's stable on chicken it is time to start adding variety.
Chicken a la chicken isn't something you want to stick with for a
long time if you can help it. There's no time limit on how long you
can give just chicken, just know it isn't optimal. Adding a fattier
food like pork will probably also help your boy put some weight back
on. Just take your time adding new proteins and let us know if there
are any problems.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, recyclerat@... wrote:

wondering the best way to introduce this new protein...or if i even
should - he's doing really well on chicken and the occasional fish
(he doesn't like fish much - but eats it if it's all i offer for a
day).

how long can i safely feed only mainly chicken? (i give him the
livers that come inside)

Messages in this topic (2)
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16. Re: RAW causing skin issues?
Posted by: "Susan Fortune" desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net cactususan
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:47 am ((PST))

Has anyone considered ringworm?

That would explain all the dogs sharing it.

My son's peke gets it occasionally; the vet says it's because she's so close to the ground...!

Susan
Southern California

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Messages in this topic (1)
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