[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12448

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Allergies?
From: Carrin
1b. Re: Allergies?
From: carnesbill
1c. Re: Allergies?
From: Ania Tysarczyk
1d. Re: Allergies?
From: Sonja

2.1. Re: worms
From: Laura Bonavia
2.2. Re: worms
From: siamesekittens4u@aol.com
2.3. Re: worms
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Advice needed on how much to feed of this veggie-fruit mix I hav
From: w453angel2000
3b. Re: Advice needed on how much to feed of this veggie-fruit mix I hav
From: Chia

4a. What would be an ideal daily diet for a pregnant German Shepherd?
From: w453angel2000
4b. Re: What would be an ideal daily diet for a pregnant German Shepherd
From: Tina Berry

5a. Re: Raw prices
From: pgmgolfcoach
5b. Re: Raw prices
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: new member needs help getting started on raw
From: Charron
6b. Re: new member needs help getting started on raw
From: katkellm
6c. new member needs help getting started on raw
From: boswellrt@aol.com

7a. Hungry pug asking for more
From: justfabulousss
7b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: costrowski75
7c. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: katkellm

8. Re: Raw fed poops not attractive
From: Sai Simonson

9. Scratched esophagus
From: VBSUSAN

10a. Re: Gullet
From: Laura Wimpey

11a. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: spricketysprock

12. Pics of my dogs eating raw used in anti-raw blog post
From: Courtney

13. Raw Bacon
From: adkjoe17

Messages
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1a. Allergies?
Posted by: "Carrin" mntgrl_2000@yahoo.com mntgrl_2000
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:26 am ((PST))

We started our dog on raw in hopes to curb his horrible itching (to the
point that he is bloody-ing himself....poor guy). Question is, he has
been on raw for approx. 2 weeks now and the itching isn't getting too
much better.

Those of you who have seen allergies disappear after starting raw,
about how long did it take?

Carrin

Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: Allergies?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:58 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Carrin" <mntgrl_2000@...> wrote:
>
> Those of you who have seen allergies disappear after starting raw,
> about how long did it take?

1. It's possible that the allergy isn't a food allergy. If that is
the case, changing diets won't help.

2. Often there is an underlying bacterial infection related to the
allergy. The allergy can be gone but the underlying infection will
still be present until measures are taken to get rid of it. This
infection can be mistaken for the allergy itself.

3. It can take 2 months for allergens to work their way out of the
body once they have stopped being injested.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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1c. Re: Allergies?
Posted by: "Ania Tysarczyk" AniaJRT@sbcglobal.net aniajrt
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 8:36 am ((PST))

My dogs allergies did not completely disappear on raw, but it took
about 3 or 4 months on raw before I saw most of the inprovement I was
going to see in her on raw. It was a lot of improvement. I then got
her homeopathic treatment so she improved more from there, but I think
it was the treatment, not the raw from then on.

Ania

Messages in this topic (7)
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1d. Re: Allergies?
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:01 am ((PST))

Our allergic dog has been on raw since March or May of last year (I don't remember which...), and while her itching has improved a thousand times what it was, it was a very slow process. The improvement was barely detectable, but I look at where we were and where we are now, and there has been a LOT of improvement. We're still not at 100%, but we're much better off than we were! Good luck with yours....stick with it!

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (7)
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2.1. Re: worms
Posted by: "Laura Bonavia" lasme8@yahoo.com thebunnylady
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:26 am ((PST))

Hi,

Just a comment from what I have learned, raising
domestic rabbits as pets.
I was told by my rabbit specialist that outdoor kept
domestic rabbits that are not tested and treated
regularly for parasites ( a number of different kinds
) may be carriers all their life with no visible
symptoms. It is not recommended to keep pet rabbits
outdoors in hutches for this reason. I don't know if
any or some of these parasites are transmittable if
the rabbit becomes prey.

Laura Bonavia

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Messages in this topic (52)
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2.2. Re: worms
Posted by: "siamesekittens4u@aol.com" siamesekittens4u@aol.com jae91254
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:12 am ((PST))

I raise my own rabbits to feed to my dogs. Never gotten worms from the
rabbits, and won't, my rabbits are worm free, rabbits raised off the ground for
generations won't have worms.
Again also you can feed DE to the rabbits if needed, would rather worm
(rabbits) that way then with chemicals that my dogs are eventually going to eat.
Joyce

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Messages in this topic (52)
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2.3. Re: worms
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 8:00 am ((PST))

Laura Bonavia <lasme8@...> wrote:
> I was told by my rabbit specialist that outdoor kept
> domestic rabbits that are not tested and treated
> regularly for parasites ( a number of different kinds
> ) may be carriers all their life with no visible
> symptoms. It is not recommended to keep pet rabbits
> outdoors in hutches for this reason.
*****
Some years ago we were assured on this list that domesticated rabbits
could not eat a species appropriate diet because they no longer are
able to eat real food. I suspect now, regarding your rabbit
specialist, that mythology and folklore abound in the rabbit fancy as
they do in the dog and cat fancy.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (52)
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3a. Re: Advice needed on how much to feed of this veggie-fruit mix I hav
Posted by: "w453angel2000" w453angel@earthlink.net w453angel2000
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:26 am ((PST))

Thanks to everyone who has responded! I appreciate the great advice
and will add much more red meat and get rid of the veggies and
fruit! I'm sure I will have plenty of questions, as I move forward,
but at least I know where I can get helpful, friendly advice!

Tari Jolin

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "w453angel2000" <w453angel@...>
wrote:
>
> I have been feeding raw for about 9 months now. I know there is a
> lot of differing opinions about whether dogs need fruit and
veggies,
> so I'm not sure if I need to give them these or not. It seems like
a
> good idea to add more nutrition, since my dogs are mainly on a
> chicken diet. I can get 10 lb bags of chicken leg quarters at
Wallie
> World for $4.70 and we go through a lot of those!
>
> I have just pureed several fresh fuits and veggies and am wondering
> how much I should feed of this stuff to my dogs and how often.
>
> They eat raw meaty bones for every meal, twice a day, mainly
chicken
> leg quarters. They also get green tripe, whenever I work up enough
> nerve to thaw out about a 20 lb whole thing and slice it up. (next
> time I'm buying this nasty stuff cut up!)
>
> I try to keep my GSD's lean, but not skinny, per my vet's
> instructions. He says it's better for the bones of large dogs. I
keep
> a little more weight on my Springers and ACD. They all have a nice
> cover to their ribs, but no one is fat. I feed my pregnant dog more,
> so she looks a tad on the plump side, then she will get whatever
meat
> and bones it takes to keep her in good weight, when she's nursing.
>
> Here's what's in the pureed mix, which is a huge amount. I will
need
> to freeze some and thaw as needed:
>
> About 3 - 4 lbs of broccoli
> 1 large bag of fresh spinach
> About 2 lbs of fresh green beans
> 3 zuchini squash
> 3 yellow squash
> 1 large butternut squash
> 6 large carrots
> 1 bunch of parsley
> 3 large Golden Delicious apples - cored
> 1 - 1 lb bag of Berry Medley (strawberries, blackberries,
> blueberries, raspberries)
> 2 lbs of beef liver
> 1 1/3 cups of flax meal
>
> Should I add or subtract anything from this mix? I'm thinking that
> next time, I won't add the liver, just feed it separate.
>
> After I put this in a bowl for each dog, I thought I would add 1
egg
> with shells, 1 - 1,000 mg capsule of Omega 3 Fish Oil and for my
> pregnant German Shepherd, 1 - 400 mcg tablet of Folic Acid.
>
> Would 1 cup for the GSD's and 1/2 cup for everyone else, every
other
> day be good? Is this too much, or too little? Often enough or
> should I feed it every day?
>
> Here are the dogs that I have:
>
> 1 - Mia - Female English Springer Spaniel - 37 lbs - eats 1 chicken
> leg quarter per day
>
> 2 - Snickers - Female English Springer Spaniel - 37 lbs - eats 1
> chicken leg quarter per day
>
> 3 - Timo - Male German Shepherd - 95 lbs - eats 4 chicken leg
> quarters per day
>
> 4 - Morgan - Female German Shepherd - 65 lbs - eats 2 chicken leg
> quarters per day
>
> 5 - Jetta - Female German Shepherd - 65 lbs - eats 2 chicken leg
> quarters per day
>
> 6 - Ellie - Female German Shepherd - 80 - 85 lbs - Pregnant - eats
4
> chicken leg quarters per day
>
> 7 - Athena - Female German Shepherd - 70 lbs - eats 3 chicken leg
> quarters per day
>
> 8 - Maddie - Female German Shepherd - 72 lbs - eats 1 1/2 chicken
leg
> quarters per day. Has HD so vet says to keep her lean, at about 72
> lbs
>
> 9 - Sydney - Australian Cattle Dog - 35 - 40 lbs - eats 1 1/2
chicken
> leg quarters per day
>
>
> Thanks,
> Tari Jolin
>

Messages in this topic (11)
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3b. Re: Advice needed on how much to feed of this veggie-fruit mix I hav
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:38 am ((PST))

Thanks to everyone who has responded! I appreciate the great advice
and will add much more red meat and get rid of the veggies and
fruit! I'm sure I will have plenty of questions, as I move

### Tara,

clever girl you are! What is so cool about all of us is that we have been
through it all...we have taken the guess work out of everything and when it
comes right down to it, common sense and following nature is the answer.
Feeding ANY species appropriately is simply following the function of how
their bodies digest & eliminate food. It's almost like once you understand
and realize how a carnivore's body functions, you have the perfect
instruction manual.

Chia & Ricco (handsome carnivore) ;-))

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Messages in this topic (11)
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4a. What would be an ideal daily diet for a pregnant German Shepherd?
Posted by: "w453angel2000" w453angel@earthlink.net w453angel2000
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:26 am ((PST))

What would be an ideal daily diet for a pregnant German Shepherd? She
weighs about 75 - 80 lbs.

Thanks,
Tari Jolin

Messages in this topic (11)
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4b. Re: What would be an ideal daily diet for a pregnant German Shepherd
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 8:49 am ((PST))

"What would be an ideal daily diet for a pregnant German Shepherd? She
weighs about 75 - 80 lbs. "

That's what my female weighs and I feed her 1lb of raw food daily with a
daily egg. When she was pregnant, I increased up to 2lbs daily and let her
eat what she wanted. Mine are on 100% venison or whole chicken if I run
out.

Towards the end of her pregnancy (about 2 weeks out) she will refuse bone
and crave organs typically. This softens everything up (stools) prior to
whelping. I only supplement with fish oil for shedding; I fed exactly the
same just more when she was pregnant. Puppies whelped fine.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (11)
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5a. Re: Raw prices
Posted by: "pgmgolfcoach" pgmgolfcoach@yahoo.com pgmgolfcoach
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:40 am ((PST))

Wow...I cannot believe the great prices you guys get your meat for! The
cheapest I find and am happy about it (until now seeing your prices
haha) is 1.29/lb chicken leg with back attached.

Where do you shop? Are you in the states...I think Canada has higher
meat prices.
Callista

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Raw prices
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 8:57 am ((PST))

"pgmgolfcoach" <pgmgolfcoach@...> wrote:
>
> Wow...I cannot believe the great prices you guys get your meat for!
*****
It varies by location and the persistence/creativity/luck of the
shopper.

The
> cheapest I find and am happy about it (until now seeing your prices
> haha) is 1.29/lb chicken leg with back attached.
*****
Are you looking at these sold in flats or are you pricing out bags of
frozen leg quarters? The ones sold in flats are generally fresh and
yes, more expensive. The bulk bags of frozen quarters are typically
where the savings are.

Consider investigating alternative sources. AKA shop around.
Chris O

>
> Where do you shop? Are you in the states...I think Canada has higher
> meat prices.
> Callista
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: new member needs help getting started on raw
Posted by: "Charron" darklyghtt@yahoo.com darklyghtt
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:40 am ((PST))

how much does a 120lb
> boy need per day? which brands are good but cost affective im also
> feeding a 1200lb horse this winter?? thank you very much. mari
>
Mari,

I would suggest a whole chicken for the meal of the day. Chicken is
really easy to switch them over to and the bones are quite
digestable. They also come with the great guts. If you can get
whole chicken with the head and feet even better! More natural
glucosamine in the feet and other joints. Either way going whole is
a great thing for dogs of the XL size. Also remember to skip a day
or two after a particulary large meal. Sometimes they will fast on
their own so don't fret!

I have a 150 lb Mastiff. He does well on Whole chickens, Whole
rabbits, Turkeys, Duck, Whole rack of beef ribs, Pork ribs, Pork
Shoulder, Pork roast, anything I can get my hands on with bone in for
under 1.99 I am on it. (The rabbit usually runs me a bit more so
that is usually a treat) But yes, there is lots of variety. If he
gulps his food give it partially frozen that will slow him down.

Best wishes.
Charron

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: new member needs help getting started on raw
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 8:47 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lifted_trucks_21"
<lifted_trucks_21@...> wrote:
please how much does he need per day? how much does a 120lb
> boy need per day? which brands are good but cost affective im also
> feeding a 1200lb horse this winter?? thank you very much. mari

Hi Mari,
I am going to second Charron's advice and recommend that you start by
feeding nothing but chicken for a week. The recommended feeding
amount is 2-3% of the dog's ideal body weight per day. So, if your
dog looks good at 120lbs. you should start out feeding about 2 and a
quarter pounds per day. I am not sure exactly what you meant by
"brands" since you are going to feed the same meat that people buy for
themselves at grocery stores. The most cost effective way to shop is
to watch for great sales on meat and then stock up. Chicken is
cheapest and easiest to find, so i would suggest that you buy a couple
of chickens and start feeding. Don't forget to ditch the kibble that
you are currently feeding, no reason to mix the two. Next, i would
suggest that you read past posts in the archives. There are thousands
of questions and how to do ideas. If you need more help, please ask.

KathyM who has horses, too--thoroughbreds-- and you are right they
sure do eat a lot

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. new member needs help getting started on raw
Posted by: "boswellrt@aol.com" boswellrt@aol.com boswellsbordercollies
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:01 am ((PST))

What is the best part of a deer to feed?
We always have deer and I usually get it processed for us to eat but a lot
is wasted.

Also turkey season is in a few months ideas?

Trish
Boswell

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Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "justfabulousss" justfabulousss@yahoo.ca justfabulousss
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 8:37 am ((PST))

Hello!

I've been lurking and reading as much as possible in the last six
weeks. Last week, I made the switch for my 7-year-old pug. My
tonkinese cat is at the "50% raw 50% crap-in-a-bag" stage. I am
very proud of both of them and their health is great, no loose
stools or other to report and they look like they are enjoying their
meals very much!

However, my pug's love for the diet keeps him begging for more. The
minute I walk in the kitchen, he gets all excited. If I'm somewhere
else, he'll go in the kitchen and whine. This is very anoying and I
hope it gets better soon.

I am feeding him organic non-castrated pig that I scored at 0.75$ a
pound (which is cheaper than chicken here right now). His ideal
weight is at 18 pounds and so I feed about half a pound divided in
two servings. The two servings was to help him digest this new food
in the beggining, but maybe I can already switch him to one meal per
day to help him feel more full. What do you think?

Thank you all for being there!!! I'm enjoying reading about raw
feeding so much!

Itzel, Dumpling (the pug) and Dim Sum (the tonkinese cat)

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 8:44 am ((PST))

"justfabulousss" <justfabulousss@...> wrote:
> However, my pug's love for the diet keeps him begging for more.
The
> minute I walk in the kitchen, he gets all excited. If I'm
somewhere
> else, he'll go in the kitchen and whine. This is very anoying and
I
> hope it gets better soon.
*****
It probably won't if you reinforce it in any way. Ignore the little
beggar. Totally.

The two servings was to help him digest this new food
> in the beggining, but maybe I can already switch him to one meal
per
> day to help him feel more full. What do you think?
*****
Move him to one meal and see how he tolerates the shift. If he's
good, your decision was appropriate; if he has loose stools or other
digestive speedbumps you were perhaps too hasty. If so, you can go
back to two squares and gradually increase one while reducing the
size of the other. Same results, one just takes longer.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 9:33 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "justfabulousss"
<justfabulousss@...> wrote:
The two servings was to help him digest this new food
> in the beggining, but maybe I can already switch him to one meal per
> day to help him feel more full. What do you think?

Hi Itzel,
I am glad the raw diet is going so smoothly for your dog. If you have
your cat at 50/50 ration now i think you are really doing great. I
have a nine month old abused stray cat, why me i ask, who showed up in
my hay loft skinny and abused and sickly. I still haven't gotten him
off the canned/raw mix. I never offered him kibble, so that is a good
thing. I really think that dropping down to one meal a day will help
your dog to be more satisfied with his food. I would start feeding
him once a day at random times so that he doesn't expect a meal to
come on a schedule. After you see how he does on a once a day
program, you might want to consider feeding slightly more than a half
a pound one day and follow it up with slightly less than a half a
pound the next. You can mix up serving amounts which will slowly
allow him to eat larger more challenging meals. You can search the
archives and read up on gorge or big meals and see what you think. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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8. Re: Raw fed poops not attractive
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 8:47 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES!

That is the best theory I have heard yet. My nine year old Lexi ate
poop as soon at "arrived" when he was a puppy. Not a problem on all
raw foods. How totally reasonable! The food nutrients have been
extracted. Nothing left to attract the dogs. Now about that grass
munching? I suppose there are posts explaining this in the archives?

Sai

My totally unscientific and unproven and not backed up by anything
opinion about this is ... dogs tend to be attracted to the poop of
kibble fed dogs because of the undigested nutrients still in kibble
poop. Raw fed dogs have little or no undigested nutrients in their
poop so raw fed poop isn't attractive unless they have been fed some
indigestable stuff like veggies or something.

The dog who is doing the eating doesn't have anything missing in his
diet, he just smells food in the poop and is going after it like he
would go after any food anywhere he finds it.

Bill Carnes
--
*~~ SaiCzarina*

Messages in this topic (1)
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9. Scratched esophagus
Posted by: "VBSUSAN" vbsue@comcast.net VBSUSAN
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:01 am ((PST))

Anyone have any experience with a scratched esophagus ... someone
emailed me today saying this had happened to their standard poodle as a
result of eating pork necks and lamb bones. She said it was both scary
and expensive. Perhaps the bones were not the cause ... how would you
ever know for sure? She is still rawfeeding but is only feeding ground
food now.

Sue

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: Gullet
Posted by: "Laura Wimpey" laura.wimpey@yahoo.com laura.wimpey
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:28 am ((PST))

FYI - I ordered the same gulletts from hare today two weeks ago. My kids LOVED em and it was a nice meaty meal. They were pretty big - 1 + lb each. It was a new...different...texture for them and they got a lot of time and fun out of it, as well as mental stimulation. "What's this hmmmm smells like beef...*poke*poke*"
Laura W.

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11a. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 1:32 pm ((PST))

> > The dog who is doing the eating doesn't have anything missing in his
> > diet, he just smells food in the poop and is going after it like he
> > would go after any food anywhere he finds it.
> >
> > Bill Carnes
> > http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>

I'm a dog walker and forgot the nasty volume of poop that kibble fed
dogs release. I also forgot how strongly it smells of dog food! I feed
a St. Bernard canned Mighty Dog and I swear she poops it all out
undigested. Nastiness! Makes you wonder what exactly you're paying
for... all that cheap dog food is probably far more expensive in the
long run.

Jess & Toby

Messages in this topic (10)
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12. Pics of my dogs eating raw used in anti-raw blog post
Posted by: "Courtney" courtneypo@gmail.com CourtKneeBU
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 1:32 pm ((PST))

Pics of my dogs eating lamb heads have been blogged at

http://dailydachshund.blogspot.com as an example of why the author is
against raw.

I'm not thrilled with this, but my photos do have a Creative Commons
license on them, which allows them to be used as long as I am given
proper credit.

I tried not to be too angry in my comment (lol) because I know we've
all been there, but I'm hoping this can open an informed,
non-confrontational discussion on the benefits of raw. Hopefully they
don't delete my comment!

http://dailydachshund.blogspot.com/2008/01/why-i-don-do-raw-feeding.html

Courtney Alieksaites
Dallas, TX

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13. Raw Bacon
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 1:33 pm ((PST))

I have two packages of Raw Bacon in my freezer. I don't eat bacon and
was going to give it away but I was wondering if I could feed it to my
pup. I havn't seen much talk about bacon and I would assume that you
wouldn't want to give much since it is so fatty but is it ok to add a
few raw slices of bacon to a couple of the dogs meals here and there
until it is gone? I wouldn't feed a whole meal of bacon or even on a
daily basis but every once and a while should be ok right?

Joe

Messages in this topic (1)
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