[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12445

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: nwohiopma
1c. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: Sandee Lee
1d. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: debwilbers
1e. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: debwilbers
1f. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: New Member intro with question
From: h h

3a. Re: bones for teeth cleaning/small dogs (was: Photos link of my dog'
From: Betty

4a. Re: Amounts for a puppy
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: Lola
From: Sandee Lee
5b. Re: Lola
From: costrowski75
5c. Re: Lola
From: katkellm
5d. Re: Lola
From: carnesbill
5e. Re: Lola
From: rolypolyloly
5f. Re: Lola
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Hooved animals?
From: Betty

7a. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not?
From: Betty

8.1. Re: worms
From: DENISE HARMON

9a. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not? Help Me Chris:)
From: Betty
9b. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not? Help Me Chris:)
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: new whippet not hungry
From: Laurie Swanson

11. Funny smell - bloodlike?
From: eventer2001

12a. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
From: homesforallpets

13. Looking for a heavy duty grinder
From: bettathang

14a. Re: Aggression with bone
From: A.

Messages
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1a. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:12 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "debwilbers" <debwilbers@...>
wrote:
>
> Why would why my older GSD be going after the other 2 dogs Poop? Is
> it becasue I'm feeding Kibble for one meaal and have her ratios
> messed up on her raw feeding?

My totally unscientific and unproven and not backed up by anything
opinion about this is ... dogs tend to be attracted to the poop of
kibble fed dogs because of the undigested nutrients still in kibble
poop. Raw fed dogs have little or no undigested nutrients in their
poop so raw fed poop isn't attractive unless they have been fed some
indigestable stuff like veggies or something.

The dog who is doing the eating doesn't have anything missing in his
diet, he just smells food in the poop and is going after it like he
would go after any food anywhere he finds it.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (8)
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1b. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "nwohiopma" nwohiopma@yahoo.com nwohiopma
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:20 pm ((PST))

Hi,

One of my Collies, Danny, ate the other dogs' poop when they were
kibble fed. After switching to raw, he stopped completely.

In November, our old Collie Sonny had to be put down. We then rescued
a Sheltie, who was kibble fed. Danny ate the new dog's first few
poops until the new dog was fully digesting raw. Then he stopped again.

I don't know if your dog will stop eating poop, but mine did when I
switched to all raw.

Candace and the 3 Collies and 1 Sheltie

Messages in this topic (8)
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1c. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:33 pm ((PST))

Debbie,

There is much speculation about what causes poop eating. Could be diet
related, could just be habit.

Regardless, you need to get all of them switch to a healthier diet. Drop
the kibble, yogurt, veggies and supplements (other than the pancreatin for
your EPI dog) and the ground foods and start feeding nice large, raw, meaty
portions to the girls.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "debwilbers" <debwilbers@yahoo.com>

I have 3 dogs, 2 GSDs and a Lhasa Apso all females. The older GSD
Teah 5yrs has been after the other dogs poops. My GSD Tessa 1 1/2 has
EPI and is on Kibble-Orijen White Fish & Potatoe, plus she gets the
Pancreatin Enzyme. Rascal-Lhasa Apso is all Raw and my oldest GSD
gets Kibble in the morning and Raw at night.

Messages in this topic (8)
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1d. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "debwilbers" debwilbers@yahoo.com debwilbers
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 1:33 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "debwilbers" <debwilbers@> wrote:
> >
> > Debbie, what you need to do is get your dogs off kibble and fully
on whole raw meats, meaty bones and organs.......

I guess I should of explained further. I did have all my dogs on ALL
RAW. Teah always seemed hungry and looking for more, plus I couldn't
see just giving them mostly protein and nothing else. They couldn't
handle the Chicken backs or Turkey necks anymore and I was getting
those in bulk from the butcher. It was weird, I was feeding them these
meats/bones for a long time and all of sudden they couldn't handle them
anymore. I was giving them pre-made for a while just to get them back
in synch but that got costly. I was running out of ideas of what to
feed my dogs and how much. It became and exhausting venture for me.

The other problem was Tessa the 1-1/2 yr old. She couldn't handle the
Raw because of her EPI--I know, you would think that would be the best
for her but it wasn't-I tried and tried but her allergies were awful
and she was getting skinnier and skinnier on raw. I was feeding 3
times a day and it still didn't seem like enough food. I tried just all
protein/organ meats no veges or the dairy but nothing helped her with
her allergies or helped her nutrition wise and the cost was high
because of the amounts I had to buy and the meats had to be lean no fat.

I grind all my food because my dogs are gulpers I tried to feed the
whole chicken leg/thigh and they both kept choking. I had to do the
Heimlich manuvre on Tessa, so I will never do that again, but then
again it does't matter for her since she is on kibble.

If I have time in the morning I will still feed Teah the raw. But
otherwise for time convenience she will get the kibble.

There are so many different opinions out there on how to feed raw it
can get really confusing to some, it did for me. I think I did too much
reading. I still want to feed my dogs raw, except for Tessa-EPI.

If I'm feeding Teah 1 cup of Kibble in the morning, is the 15 ounces,
minus the veges, dairy products and throwing in organ meat enough for
her? I can't see that only protein is good for her. She is about 73
pounds.

Debbie
Teah, Tessa, Rascal

Messages in this topic (8)
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1e. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "debwilbers" debwilbers@yahoo.com debwilbers
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 1:55 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "debwilbers" <debwilbers@>
> wrote:
> >

> My totally unscientific and unproven and not backed up by anything
> opinion about this is ... dogs tend to be attracted to the poop of
> kibble fed dogs because of the undigested nutrients still in kibble
> poop.

You know,your right, I've read this before. This doesn't explain why
she is going after the Lhasa's since she is on all raw, but then maybe
that one meal of kibble in the morning isn't giving Teah what she
needs. When they were all on RAW no one ate anyones poop.

I am hoping to go back to raw one day for Tessa. Her EPI has been in
complete control for over 3 months now. I'm also still ruling out what
she can eat because of her allergies. The Orijen White fish seems to be
working since she is scratching and biting less. What would one do to
feed raw if the dog can't have, chicken, turkey, beef, rabbit,
vennison, lamb. What if she can only eat fish......

Thanks for posting. And thanks for eveyone elses posts.

Debbie
Teah, Tessa, Rascal

Messages in this topic (8)
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1f. Re: Switch of Feeding now eating other dogs poops
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:26 pm ((PST))

Debbie,

The beauty of feeding raw is the diet can be tweaked to fit each individual
need. I don't know exactly what you were feeding previously but it could be
they didn't get enough meat to go along with those backs and necks, could be
your supplier started carrying a different brand or started enhancing the
products...hard to tell. But just because that didn't work, doesn't mean
your dogs wouldn't do well and be healthier on raw. So...time to start
over! :))

I doubt very much that your EPI dog is allergic to all of the proteins you
mentioned. It's not all that common for a dog to be allergic to one raw
protein, certainly not several. And getting her on a prey model raw diet
will be beneficial for her. The process of trying to digest foods dogs are
not designed to eat (carbohydrates) puts a strain on healthy organs, mainly
pancreas, so the sooner you can get her switched to raw the better!

Kibble is of no benefit at all. A raw diet will provide everything needed
for proper nutrition. I don't know what you have been feeding that was
mostly protein?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (8)
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2a. Re: New Member intro with question
Posted by: "h h" deedeekinsisme@yahoo.com tarbedyh
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:30 am ((PST))

I just landed some turkey backs - they look very meaty along with lots
of necks. Would this be considered more meaty?

~~~~~~~~~
Since this question comes up often, I made a quick page with a side by side comparison of a couple of meaty pieces vs not-meaty pieces.

http://www.geocities.com/tarbedyh/meaty_or_not.html

HEIDI MARIE
~with the woofs-Cheyenne and Lazy B~
~and the moggies-Minerva, Shasta, and Misty-Jo~

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Re: bones for teeth cleaning/small dogs (was: Photos link of my dog'
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:41 am ((PST))

I don't have to remove the meaty chicken bones as he readily chomps at
those and eats them until gone, which really doesn't take him long. I
have been giving him raw meaty chicken thighs with bone intact. He has
been losing interest in the rib bones once he's cleaned them and I
simply throw it away. Those have not done the cleaning that the raw
rib bones have done though and I think it has a lot to do with the
meat, gristle and some fat that he has to gnaw at to get off. Chicken
is rather soft, even the bone.

Yes, you did help clarify some issues with giving slabs of ribs, and
large boned animals such as cows. I would think rabbit would be a good
choice and I'm going to try rabbit, and fish next if I can get those.
I'll try the hind quarters of a rabbit and the head or middle of a
fish, or something on that order. Thanks!
Prism

> You shouldn't need to remove a chicken bone--isn't that completely
> edible for your dog?
> Does this help?
> Laurie

Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: Amounts for a puppy
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:41 am ((PST))

Jennifer,

I am really sorry for your loss although not certain how aspiration
pneumonia was caused by chicken necks. But, there are many reasons not to
feed small bony items to large dogs...gulping and choking is just one of
them. Necks might be fine for 4-week-old puppies who are only going to gum
the food or for cats or tiny dogs with additional meat, but they have no
place in a large dog's diet whether ground or whole.

I understand your fear, but you have made the common mistake of thinking
ground food is somehow better/safer. It is not. Ground encourages gulping,
does not clean the teeth and gums and is not easier to digest.

Whole large food is the way to go, for many reasons.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <oldbones929@alltel.net>

> I started ginding the chicken, etc. for my dogs after I lost an Irish
Wolfhound to aspiration pneumonia after feeding a meal of chicken necks. He
and my other dogs had been eating raw for a few years and I'll never take
that chance again, so I grind.

Messages in this topic (13)
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5a. Re: Lola
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:59 am ((PST))

Hi Stefanie,

1. No beef bones unless they are slathered in meat...remove the bone once
the meat is gone. Small cut bones found in steaks, chops, etc. aren't the
best...they are hard, sharp and too small. No chicken necks..turkey necks
are a "know your dog" thing. Some can eat them with no problems but if you
have a gulper that tries to swallow food whole, they are just the right
diameter to get stuck and present a choking hazard.

2. The 10% bones recommended is in overall diet...you may feed bony once a
day or a couple of times per week, but the majority of the diet is going to
be nice red meat and fat. If you feed bone every meal you most likely are
feeding too much....however, not something to worry about in the first week
or so unless your dog is having elimination issues! :)

3. Skin and fat is good...very nutritious and a necessary part of the diet.

4. If you feed a large meal and she quits when full, put it away for another
day.

5. This one is easy....you don't! :) No fruits or veggies other than
treats if she likes them.

6. Meat, meat and more meat! No yogurt or beans. Eggs are great!

7. Some dogs like fish, some don't. No big deal one way or another. Try
again later or try a different fish (mackerel, sardines). Canned fish is
cooked so no it would not have the same benefits as raw.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (7)
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5b. Re: Lola
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:16 pm ((PST))

"rolypolyloly" <einafets83@...> wrote:
> What about beef bones? Are those okay?
*****
Starting out, it's eaiest to just remove beef bones from your Open To
Buy list. When you and your dogs are more comfortable with your
dogs' abilities, you can consider beef bones. Generally they are not
considered edible; specifically some dogs do quite well on ribs and
necks and brisket bones. The long weight-bearing bones are not
recommended.

We did give her
> the t-bone, and she had no problems with it. Was it wrong to give
her
> a t-bone steak?
*****
I prefer to avoid cut bones and I definitely don't feed sharp,
stiletto-like bones, such as t-bones and "country style" pork ribs.
Feeding these bones is a personal choice. Perhaps set these bones
aside as well, for later evaluation when you've got more experience.

What about rodents like guinea pigs?
*****
Whole guinea pigs would be good food yes, if the size was right for
the dog and the pigs were raised on an appropriate healthy diet.

(I'd really just
> like to make myself a list of bones NOT to feed)
*****
You can do that. In fact, you will do that, with time. For now,
avoiding beef bones, small bones, naked bones, sharp pointy bones,
old bones and cooked bones should get you through most situations.

What about necks?
> Some of you say they are a chocking hazard and never to feed bones
> like turkey necks, while others say do feed them these.
*****
It's a dog by dog by human decision. I'd wager most agree that: Hen
turkey necks are best limited to small dogs or cats; that tom turkey
necks may be useful for dogs that take their time eating; that whole
turkey necks are more reliable than half necks; that they are not
notably meaty.

I haven't fed turkey necks for years and have no intention to. I
don't trust my dogs, I don't trust turkey necks. This is my choice.
What you do with them is your choice.

> 2. In the beginning, most of you say to start with something simple
> and bland like chicken leg quarters. We have done this, but by doing
> so, she is getting bone with every meal. I've read that dogs only
need
> about 10% (just a guide I understand) of bone a week, but is it okay
> for her to eat the bone every meal?
*****
It's okay, it's just not necessary and if doing so limits your
feeding options, by all means quit feeding bones every meal. Also of
course, if feeding bones every meal make defecating difficult for
your dog, back off on the bones.

I don't find much reason to feed bone every meal, and when I do need
to feed it in every meal, I feed lots less bone than that which comes
in a leg quarter. Leg quarters have way higher bone content than
10%; you might want to broaden your menu a tad to include rib-in
chicken breasts, or boneless meat or a back with a plop of added meat.

> 3. I think I read somewhere that dogs don't need all the fat, which
> makes sense, so I've been cutting it off. I've also been cutting off
> all of the skin too. Do I need to do this or is it nutritious in any
> way? What about fur? If I were to buy her a guinea pig, as suggested
> in one post I read, do I need to skin it?
*****
Fat is useful. If you need to cut some off as an introductory offer,
fine; I rarely cut off fat and my dogs range from one that's slightly
perhaps maybe a tad overweight to a dog that could easily gain five
pounds and I wouldn't complain. Fat (both subQ and in the flesh) is
vital. A dog's entire food pyramid is protein and fat. I would not
recommend severely and consistently cutting off all the fat.

Leave the skin on unless you are dealing with loose stools or you are
really REALLY trying to take some weight off. Skin is an organ,
don't blow your opportunity to feed a organ.

When you get the GP, feed it whole and unfussed with. Let the dog
figure it out. Worst case, you may have to cut into the abdomen to
increase interest.

> Should I wrap it up and
> put it back in the fridge or freezer or just leave it out for her to
> gnaw on?
*****
Both are good options. Plan to do both as weather and circumstances
dictate. If she'll eat all day and you don't want her to, collect
the remains for the next meal.

> 5. How do you feed vegetables?
*****
I don't, you shouldn't. Definitely you should not consider
vegetation a measurable part of the menu. There is no nutritional
slot in a dog's diet that is filled by vegetation. Table scraps and
stuff that drops on the floor--animal, vegetable, mineral--are fair
game for my dogs. Other than that? Nope, no way. Yes, you can
say "no" to those eyes and don't think you can't. You're the
decider, not her. Decide to feed her a species appropriate diet.

> 6. She is also getting yogurt, which she loves, beans, and has had
an
> egg. Any other protein rich sources that you feed your furry kids?
*****
Egad. Have you been reading Billinghurst? Yogurt is not an
appropriate "protein-rich" food. Humans and humans alone drink milk
after they're weaned. Feed a dollop of yogurt as a treat but please
get over the notion of making a meal of it. No milk meals. No bean
meals. Eggs are fine whole foods and you can feed them to bowel
tolerance. What your girl needs for protein-rich food is meat, meaty
bones, organs.

> 7. We bought a salmon fillet and gave it to her, but she just spit
it
> out and looked at us like we were stupid. We did get her to eat it,
> but she did not want to. Maybe she just doesn't like salmon.
*****
Or perhaps she doesn't like farmed salmon. Or perhaps it was too
cold. Hard to know, but since fish is not a required course, don't
worry. If she likes salmon later, good; if she likes other fish,
good; if she doesn't, that's okay too.

Is canned tuna okay to give her?
*****
Canned tuna is considered to be one of the "high mercury" fish. If
you want to feed it, do so occasionally and stay away from solid
white albacore and oil-pack. Water pack "chunk light" offers less
soy and lower mercury levels. OTOH, since fish isn't needed and
certainly cooked fish isn't needed, you can comfortably skip the
whole schmear if you so desire.

Does it have the same health
> benefits as a whole fish? Is there another fish that your dogs enjoy
*****
There's no bone, so that's a clear deficiency. Most whole fish
you're likely to come across will be useful for protein variety; few
fish--salmon, mackerel, herring, sardine, anchovy--will deliver Omega
3. For now, if you are interested in offering fish, shoot for
healthy raw variety.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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5c. Re: Lola
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:21 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rolypolyloly" <einafets83@...> wrote:
>What about beef bones? Are those okay? We did give her
> the t-bone, and she had no problems with it. Was it wrong to give her
> a t-bone steak?

Hi Stephanie,
The problem with t- bones is not the density of the bone, but the
unnaturally narrow and sharp shape that the butcher's saw cuts it
into. So, no, i wouldn't feed the bones based on the cut. Most beef
bones are too dense for a dog to eat. For the size of your dog, beef
ribs are, maybe, the exception to the rule. Pork, turkey, lamb, goat,
and deer bones should be edible for your dog. These bones should be
hidden under a hunk of meat and the size of the meal should require
that the dog has to rip and chew to eat. The recommendation is to
make the the portion bigger than the dog's head.

>I've read that dogs only need
> about 10% (just a guide I understand) of bone a week, but is it okay
> for her to eat the bone every meal?

The what you do know and the what you will be doing later should be
different. For the newbie phase, bone with every meal helps with
stool control. Since bone tightens things up, it helps to keep a dog
from getting loose stools. Though these stools are a pain in the
clean up to the person, they do not mean a dog is sick. Eventually,
you will probably feed whole meals of nothing but meat, since 10% just
ain't a lot of bone. For the next couple of weeks, however, feeding
more than 10% bone is ok. Balance is achieved over time and there is
no set window of time to hit it.
>
> 3. I think I read somewhere that dogs don't need all the fat, which
> makes sense, so I've been cutting it off. I've also been cutting off
> all of the skin too.

Skin and fat are part of the prey animal and should be fed. The
recommendation to trim fat and skin is only made to make digestion
easier or if a dog has a digestive issue. So, it is ok that you
removed them initially, but if you have been successfully feeding raw
for a week, it is time to leave the skin and fat on.

> 5. How do you feed vegetables?

You don't. They have no place in the diet of a carnivore. Dairy
products fall into this category, too. Carnivores get the nutrients
by eating the animal that eats the veggies, they can't utilize the
veggies themselves. HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (7)
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5d. Re: Lola
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 1:12 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rolypolyloly" <einafets83@...>
wrote:
>
> Lola weighs 74 lbs. This is her "ideal" weight. She could gain or
> lose a pound without problems, but she looks good and is toned
> in all the right spots.

Don't worry about pounds. That is not what you should be looking
at. The "looks good and is toned in all the right spots" is how you
judge whether she is getting the right amount of food. Don't worry
about 2% to 3% and don't worry about 74. Worry about how she looks
and feels. All the rest is just numbers.

> I have several questions. Please feel free to answer one or all of
> them. I will even number them for ease of following along
> and replying.

Several others have answered and I basically agree with what as been
said before me. I will only comment on things I see a little
different from what has already been said.

> 1. What about necks?

I have been feeding turkey necks 2 or 3 times a week for over 5
years and I just don't see them as a hazzard. I do suggest you feed
whole necks and not the necks that have been cut in half by the
grocer. Whole necks are around a foot long and weigh about a pound.

Sometimes my dogs will swallow a piece that they judge to be too
large about half way down. They bring these back into their mouth,
chew a little more and swallow again and all is ok. I think this is
what a lot of people see and call it choking. To me, it's not
choking, rather deciding to chew a little more.

> 2. In the beginning, most of you say to start with something simple
> and bland like chicken leg quarters. We have done this, but
> by doing so, she is getting bone with every meal.

I never worry about percentages or ratios in a diet. Again, they
are just numbers and are not critical. The health of your dog will
be the same whether you feed 5% bone or 35% bone. Excess calcium
gets excreeted through the kidneys. You have to REALLY feed a lot
of bone to feed too much. Some people feed bone every meal and some
feed bone occasionally. If his stools don't come out of the chute
white nnd crumbly you aren't feeding too much bone. If they turn
white and crumbly in a day or so, you are ok and to me that is a
desirable thing.

> 3. I think I read somewhere that dogs don't need all the fat, which
> makes sense, so I've been cutting it off.

Dogs handle fat differently than humans. Fat in a dog's diet
replaces carbs. It is their source of energy. Dogs need fat.
However, in the early stages of feeding a raw diet, too much fat can
sometimes cause loose stools. You might want to go light on fat
right now but a couple of months down the road feed whatever fat is
attached to whatever you feed.

> I've also been cutting off
> all of the skin too. Do I need to do this or is it nutritious
> in any way?

Basically the same thing I said about fat applies to skin.

> What about fur?

Hair is pretty indestable. It will pass through pretty much
unchanged and doesn't contribute any nutrients.

> If I were to buy her a guinea pig, as suggested
> in one post I read, do I need to skin it?

No ... you can but don't need to.

> 4. Should I wrap it up and
> put it back in the fridge or freezer or just leave it out for
> her to gnaw on?

I would put it up for later. If you are going to feed the rest in a
day or two I would put it in the fridge. Longer would call for a
freezer. It's your choice.

> 5. How do you feed vegetables?

I don't ever. Never have in 5 years.

> I can't say no to that little face and those eyes!

Toughen up and learn to. Its for her own good.

> How do I get the most nutrition
> out of fruits and veggies for her?

There is none that is useful to her. There is no nutrient in any
veggie that is not in the meat, bones, or organs of the prey animals
that eat them.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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5e. Re: Lola
Posted by: "rolypolyloly" einafets83@gmail.com rolypolyloly
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 1:33 pm ((PST))

Egad. Have you been reading Billinghurst? Yogurt is not an
appropriate "protein-rich" food. Humans and humans alone drink milk
after they're weaned. Feed a dollop of yogurt as a treat but please
get over the notion of making a meal of it. No milk meals. No bean
meals.
*********

Sorry-
I should have said that I am NOT feeding her yogurt or fruit or
veggies as a main staple of her diet. She just likes them. We used to
give her the store bought treats, but now, yogurt and carrots are her
"treats."

P.S. Yes, we did read billinghurst. Is that a "no-no" here?!
Stefanie

Messages in this topic (7)
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5f. Re: Lola
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 1:52 pm ((PST))

"rolypolyloly" <einafets83@...> wrote:
>> P.S. Yes, we did read billinghurst. Is that a "no-no" here?!
*****
Not so much a "no no" as a "wrong wrong".

Either through malice aforethought or miseducation, he's out to lunch
in several significant areas. The omnivorous nature of dogs, for
example is mythology at best. A diet composed of ground meats and
veggies plus depressingly bony bone and unnecessary supplements--the
vaunted BARF diet--is a poor approximation of a wolf's species
appropriate diet. What Billinghurst did do was get some people to stop
feeding kibble. What he did not do was be honest about our domestic
wolves.

His guidelines are not ones this list recommends.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Re: Hooved animals?
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:20 pm ((PST))

Yes, I figured that there are no wild cows, but there are lots of wild
hooved animals that aren't around like Buffalo, and wolves hunt in
packs and do bring down those larger animals so I was just curious as
to what responses would come up:) Birds are much different than
smaller animals like rabbits, to me rabbits, small pigs make a lot of
sense, even squirrels and raccoons, things of that nature.

I'm kinda getting a feeling for this prey model raw feeding! Cats
catch birds..a lot. I worked at the zoo when young and a lion caught a
male peacock and ate the whole thing except the feathers which I got
to keep!

Prism
___________
As to poultry they are harder to catch live than any grounded animal
but from time to time they do get caught and ate by wild dogs/wolves
so I do not see it being bad to feed them after all they are all meat
under neath right? Dogs eat meat right? So no problems :P
> Kathy in MO

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7a. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not?
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:20 pm ((PST))

Are pork rib bones softer than cow ribs then? I can try those next
instead of the raw beef ribs. Or do you still take them away once
those are cleaned?

Also, I thought that a dog is ok to bury their bones, and I would
think they bury bones in all manner of being worked on, meat on,
somewhat on, all cleaned? I wouldn't let mine bury his due to my doing
in home childcare and the backyard is small and he's really mostly an
indoor dog anyway.
Prism
___________________

> #### I LOVE pork rib bones. I get MASSIVE slabs of them for cheap
and Ricco loves them!
> Chia & Ricco

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8.1. Re: worms
Posted by: "DENISE HARMON" Harmonydobes1@msn.com dobermom_shibamom
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:20 pm ((PST))

My dogs got worms from eating Rabbits. It was very expensive to deworm them because of the specific worm the rabbits carry. I will not feed WHOLE rabbits again. I do feed them skinned and gutted rabbits and have never had another problem. This case is not just random. I can state cases where many many dogs were infected with this worm from whole rabbits. I choose to be very careful when it comes to rabbits.

Dee Harmon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (41)
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9a. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not? Help Me Chris:)
Posted by: "Betty" prismkitten@yahoo.com prismkitten
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:20 pm ((PST))

Would cows feet be a knuckle bone? Yes, so many of you all do have
large dogs, and are at least 3 times the weight and size of my little
Maltese.

The raw beef rib does keep him most of the day once I give it to him,
around noon and I take it way around bedtime as he loses interest in
chewing on it after it's cleaned..although he likes guarding it.

Maybe it takes him longer for a single bone because of his loose and
sensitive teeth and gums? Although I never noticed that when he was
eating the raw chicken thighs. I only knew his teeth needed cleaning.

He seems to be going thru some detoxing, because for the first time
ever in his 8 yrs. his right ear is red, itchy and bugging him and
that is the side with the worst tooth but it looks like it's clearing
up and even getting tighter! Also, with his left ear but not the
extent of his right ear. This is after 5 days of giving him hunks of
raw beef, the raw rib bones, and cleaning with a little water and
Iodine solution on that bad tooth.

I think that how could I have been fooled into thinking that the raw
patties one gets from the freezer section at the pet store was
optimal? Good thing he always got raw albeit bite sized beef chunks
from me along with at least some raw chicken bones or he might be so
worse off after 5+ years of raw feeding that way!
Prism
____________________
> If it takes your guy a whole day to pick clean a single rib, and at
> the end of the day if the bone is bare naked but generally
>unscarred, there's probably little likelihood he'll bust a tooth.
>But if a rib bone takes all day for your dog, you certainly don't
>need cow feet to keep him amused!
> Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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9b. Re: Feed raw rib bone or not? Help Me Chris:)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:04 pm ((PST))

"Betty" <prismkitten@...> wrote:>
> Would cows feet be a knuckle bone?
*****
No. A knuckle bone is the joint at either end of the femur. A cow
foot is a cow foot: from the ground north to its pastern.

> Maybe it takes him longer for a single bone because of his loose and
> sensitive teeth and gums? Although I never noticed that when he was
> eating the raw chicken thighs.
*****
Chicken thighs are easier bones than beef ribs. But it may take him
all day because he's enjoying himself.

> I think that how could I have been fooled into thinking that the raw
> patties one gets from the freezer section at the pet store was
> optimal?
*****
Good marketing and you didn't know any better.

he might be so
> worse off after 5+ years of raw feeding that way!
*****
Five plus years of any raw is better than five plus years of kibble.
You can fix what wasn't right.
Chris O

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10a. Re: new whippet not hungry
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:40 pm ((PST))

Hi Christine,

How old is your pup? Is she acting normal other than not very hungry?
She could be full from yesterday, or she may have liked the cooked
goose (stronger smell & flavor than raw chicken) and is hoping holding
out for more of that might work.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "christinegenova" <geauxgirl@...>
wrote:

Gave her the chicken, a couple of sniffs and she
> just walked away.

Messages in this topic (2)
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11. Funny smell - bloodlike?
Posted by: "eventer2001" eventer2001@yahoo.com eventer2001
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:45 pm ((PST))

The 5 month old newf has been eating raw since I got him just over 2
months ago. I've been introducing new meats lately -- picked up some
pork rib ends at the market on Saturday on sale, some turkey wings at
the store on their "almost dead" sale shelf. Mostly though, he gets
ground beef and chicken. Lately we had instances of smelling
something coming from the pup... the paramedic hubby says it smells a
bit like blood. There is no blood in his stools. He coughed up some
bones this morning and there was only a few bones and clear liquid.
His energy levels are fine -- constantly playing with the kids or the
adult cattle dog. We're a bit concerned about the smell and not quite
sure what it might be. About a week ago, just as I signed on to this
list, both dogs had a couple days with large beef bones in the
backyard. Those were taken away after reading this list as well as
him coughing up some beef bone chunks one day. He chews his meals
pretty well and like I said already... no problems with energy and we
aren't SEEING any discharge of blood either in stools or in vomit. So
where could the smell be coming from? Any ideas?

Thanks tons!
Tammy
& Reilly

Dayton, Ohio

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: Is this going to be a balanced diet.
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 1:12 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "claudia" <claudia_homer@...> wrote:
>
> Good morning,
>
> Just wondering how they kill all those little critters! ~ Claudia
>
>
>
CO2 gas chamber. No ill effects have been found as of yet but I do
know that many animals suffer sezures if anything is wrong with the
setup (low tank, leak in system, etc). I prefer a spinal dislocation
myself. I also prefer to do it myself. Anytime I can process an
animal myself I feel better about it. Mostly because I know I didn't
do any of the things you sometimes hear about happening, like chickens
being kicked before processing, or cows bein bullied with electric
prods. I just prefer knowing an animal suffered as little as
possible. Of course until I get up and running with rats and mice for
my cats I may order some from these folks. But not for dogs. . .

Kathy in MO

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13. Looking for a heavy duty grinder
Posted by: "bettathang" bettathang@yahoo.com bettathang
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:01 pm ((PST))

Hello All-
After seeing the way that raw has changed my dogs, I've decided to
switch my cat to raw as well. After reading some other posts about
how animals with few teeth can handle chunks w/bone, I tried some
chicken chunks with my cat. He can't do it. He couldn't even eat any
of the chicken meat. When chopped very finely, he eats with gusto,
but I want to make sure he is getting the proper bone contanet. He
has no molars, and no canines, only a few incisors in the front (poor
boy!). Can anyone recommend a good grinder that can grind bone? Or
do most grinders on the market have the capability of grinding smaller
bones?
Thanks!
-Heidi and her gummy cat

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14a. Re: Aggression with bone
Posted by: "A." ols@charter.net cesare.1920
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:05 pm ((PST))

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I apologize for posting the
question, I didn't think it was OT at the time. What is RawChat? Is
that a separate yahoo group?

~Amanda

> ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN ADMIN
>
> Please take all training discussions to RawChat or private. This
> includes resource guarding. Thank you.
> Chris O
> Moderation Team

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