Feed Pets Raw Food

Thursday, December 20, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12404

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. I am sooo worthless...
From: Irene Clark
1b. Re: I am sooo worthless...
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: I am sooo worthless...
From: katkellm
1d. Re: I am sooo worthless...
From: heather pavelin
1e. Re: I am sooo worthless...
From: carnesbill
1f. Re: I am sooo worthless... Definately NOT
From: sisterloui
1g. Re: I am sooo worthless...
From: Heather

2a. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
From: Jill Coleman

3a. Re: panting
From: johnsonkp200

4a. Re: What to try next -more specifically
From: Yasuko herron

5a. New Girl on the Block....
From: Jerri Buiting
5b. Re: New Girl on the Block....
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
5c. Re: New Girl on the Block....
From: katkellm

6a. Re: Dental issues
From: Erin Hartiens-Santiago

7a. Where do you get your meat?
From: francesdrew
7b. Re: Where do you get your meat?
From: katkellm
7c. Re: Where do you get your meat?
From: Laurie Swanson
7d. Re: Where do you get your meat?
From: sisterloui

8a. Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
From: francesdrew
8b. Re: Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
From: costrowski75
8c. Re: Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
From: Laurie Swanson

9a. Re: So I decided to switch
From: cutensexyb89
9b. Re: So I decided to switch
From: carnesbill

10a. Ok - I'm about ready to go for it!
From: jhusselstein
10b. Re: Ok - I'm about ready to go for it!
From: costrowski75


Messages
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1a. I am sooo worthless...
Posted by: "Irene Clark" ireneclark@gmail.com irenespoms
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:06 pm ((PST))

I do believe I am worthless at this whole thing! Don't get me wrong. I
am doing a great job feeding my dogs raw, but even dealing with tripe
or even cow tongue and I get the hebbie jebbies. Some of you are
talking about whether to split a pigs head in half or just bring it
home whole! I can't even deal with slaughtering much of anything myself
much less give my dogs the head of something!
I am a wuss. Is there hope for me and is there a place for such wusses
our there? (Is wusses a word? hehehe) Help me!
Irene

Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: I am sooo worthless...
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:27 pm ((PST))

Oh my yes...there is hope for you!!!! You are doing great and definitely
not worthless. You aren't even a wuss! :)

You don't need to be able to slaughter, split, feed heads or bring it home
whole in order to feed your dog appropriately. Just keep on keeping
on...anything you feed raw is worthwhile! And send those tongues to me!
:))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Irene Clark" <ireneclark@gmail.com>

I do believe I am worthless at this whole thing! Don't get me wrong. I
am doing a great job feeding my dogs raw, but even dealing with tripe
or even cow tongue and I get the hebbie jebbies. Some of you are
talking about whether to split a pigs head in half or just bring it
home whole! I can't even deal with slaughtering much of anything myself
much less give my dogs the head of something!
I am a wuss. Is there hope for me and is there a place for such wusses
our there? (Is wusses a word? hehehe) Help me!

Messages in this topic (7)
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1c. Re: I am sooo worthless...
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:40 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Irene Clark" <ireneclark@...> wrote:
>> I am a wuss.

Hi Irene,
I was a wuss, too, at the beginning. Before raw feeding, i wouldn't
stuff a turkey at Thanksgiving because it gave me the creeps to touch
the inside bones. I was a vegan when i started raw feeding and even
though i still cooked meat for my family, it wasn't something i
enjoyed. Then, i decided i wanted my dogs to have as much fun as some
of the dogs i read about on the list and eat whole prey. So, i
ordered pig heads from Prey for Pets for my dogs for Christmas. Well,
when dh saw what i paid with shipping, he made this speech about how
money didn't grow on trees and where did i think pig heads came from
if not a slaughter house and didn't i live in the country about 20min
from a slaughter house....You get my drift. Well, i shifted into
combat mode because no one would deny my dogs the fun that i saw they
had with the heads and lots of the changes i observed because they
were eating big meals, so i called the slaughter house. The rest is
me getting a freezer full of deer trim and heads and legs. Cow
heads, beef hearts, liver, spleen, kidney. All of the stuff is free.
So, start slow, keep an open mind, and be prepared to "dewuss" along
the way--it will happen as your raw feeding journey unfolds. KathyM

Messages in this topic (7)
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1d. Re: I am sooo worthless...
Posted by: "heather pavelin" hpav061378@yahoo.com hpav061378
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:40 pm ((PST))


It does get better!! Take it from a vegetarian that feeds raw meat to her dogs lol. At first I couldnt believe the meat I was cutting for my dogs argrg and the smell was terrible. Now it is second nature to me. I just recently starting tackling whole turkeys! that was a sight I tell you. Keep up the good work!! Heather

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (7)
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1e. Re: I am sooo worthless...
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:00 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Irene Clark" <ireneclark@...>
wrote:
>
> am doing a great job feeding my dogs raw, but even dealing
> with tripe or even cow tongue and I get the hebbie jebbies.

Don't worry about it, Irene. I have been feeding raw for over 5
years and have never fed tripe and don't intend to. It's really not
all the nutrious anyway. I have never fed head of any kind except
when it was attached to the body(rabbits) and don't intend to. I
have fed tongue a few times and probably will again. It's not
pleasant but isn't really all that bad after a time or two. Like
the others you mentioned, its not required that you feed these
things.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (7)
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1f. Re: I am sooo worthless... Definately NOT
Posted by: "sisterloui" habershon@aol.com sisterloui
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:38 pm ((PST))

Hi Irene,

LOL you most definately are not a wuss.

I am a committed meat eater myself but have suddenly started handling
lots of bits of animals I never thought i would see (grin)

I think the easisest thing for me has been the fact that i live in a
major city here in the uk,that has lots of butchers in a very small
area.

I buy from them what they call "meat trim" its an almost perfect mix
of organ meats, fats and meat that is simply waste for them but as I
am happy to take it off their hands for about 10 cents a pound I now
have several regular suppliers. Its all in fairly small pieces,
bigger than mince but not bigger than about an inch square.

(this for me is a zero squeemishness food (grin)

I really do think that "where" you live has a big impact on the type
of foods you can feed and of course availability.

TO give all you folks a laugh, and to prove I do get squeamish from
time to time !!!

I called at my local butchers to collect meat and with them ordering
extra in for Christmas I was delighted to lug home 4 bags of very
heavy Marrow bones (i thought) only to take out 6 lovely , whole and
complete pigs heads !!!

Oh how I struggled with the eyes ! (grin)

Well I failed . To bring in a link to a previous post about
slaughtering pigs, my father was delighted. Some of his favourite
foods are pig chaps (cheeks) brawn (brain) and tongue.

I told him to just call it an early Christmas present, although my
mum wasnt so pleased to have to cook them.

A final point. I do so admire the folks on this list who although
vegetarian by choice do choose to feed their dogs in "their" natural
way. Very open minded and very admirable.

Best wishes
Jane
(sisterloui)

Messages in this topic (7)
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1g. Re: I am sooo worthless...
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:40 pm ((PST))

I'm jumping on the vegetarian bandwagon as well. I was horrified at
the thought of feeding meat to my dog but I soon got over it. It helps
when I am able to take meats and scraps that are going to be thrown
away.. that way I feel like that animal didn't die for nothing. I
still have some issues handling fresh liver and had the joy of getting
a trachea with attatched lungs and heart before. Fresh lung is
something you just have to experience! LOL. I have never fed heads and
never will (not even whole rabbit because my dog hates rabbit and the
head is too big for my 5.5 lb kitten). I do feed my kitty whole quail,
mice and soon to be guinea pigs. Tripe is something I have no desire
to purchase. I can say you will get desensitized to these things the
more you experience them.

Heather

Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
Posted by: "Jill Coleman" aquilter16@hotmail.com aquilter16
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:06 pm ((PST))


Yes, she is doing fine on the scaled down portions of chicken backs. After the holidays when things have calmed down I will start searching out a better variety and work on introducing it slowly. Thanks for the support and guidance, much appreciated.

Jill and Hannah.


To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.comFrom: taggartgalt@yahoo.comDate: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 01:02:53 +0000Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe


Yay!!!Anna and KhanHannah is > back to normal now that I realize I am feeding way to much.


_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007

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Messages in this topic (11)
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3a. Re: panting
Posted by: "johnsonkp200" sunfiretervs@comcast.net johnsonkp200
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:28 pm ((PST))

I have read the question of panting with interest.
There is a fascinating blog site (whose URL I have LOST!) written by a
guy who lives with the Eskimos along the Bering Sea off Alaska. This
guy lives the life of the nomad hunter of seal used for daily
substenence. With using digital batteries out of the question, and
lacking liquid water, he will develop his photos using ICE.

Anyway, he claims that one of their staple foods they (people) eat are
strips of frozen raw caribou, and that when they eat it, it makes them
very very warm - makes them sweat no matter how cold it is outside!

If this is true, then I wonder if eating raw meat, or perhaps certain
types of raw meat, or perhaps certain types of frozen raw meat, has the
same effect on dogs?
Karen

Messages in this topic (13)
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4a. Re: What to try next -more specifically
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:51 pm ((PST))

>I started my pup at seven weeks on quail; Meal three was quail and a wee blop of
green tripe. she had successfully eaten quail, venison, chicken meat, smashed chicken back, a smashed wing+ cut from a cornish game hen, a piece of salmon filet, a mouthful of lamb, a pork blade bone to clean up, a chicken heart, a mere smear of chicken liver.


Hi,Chris. As you know,I don't have a puppy to feed but, puppy feeding is looking not clear to me so,would you tell me about puppy feeding?

I know how much to feed,and how often,but what to feed is tricky to understand.

Like human,dog has puppy teeth andit fell off right? But you still can feed same food that i feed to palette;Beef Rib,Buffalo rib,Eljk rib,or Necks from many animals;mainly questioning about red meat with bone part. Is there such thing that puppy teeth is lot weaker than adult teeth??

I see how we start is same;chicken and looks like, to serve,it served with smashed and or ground or chunk of meat to start with.

How long do you have to smash bone or give ground meat or chink of meat to puppy?

and from when can you introduce ribs or neck etc red meat with bone ;something that may require stronger teeth?? or until puppy teeth is gone,you mustrely on poultry for bone intake and as variety,you feed red bonless meat??

Or,whether I feed puppy or not,I can feed everything I feed palette with same condition and same variety andjust size and meal frequency isdifferent??

Thank you

yassy


---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. New Girl on the Block....
Posted by: "Jerri Buiting" jerribuiting@yahoo.com jerribuiting
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:51 pm ((PST))

Hi,

WOW -- not sure I can do this either -- I can definitely relate to
the WUSS girl! This whole thing started a week ago when I (aided by
dh who refuses to spend any more money on vet bills) decided to start
dealing with food allergies. This is a 'guess' on my part with
regards to my 5-year old Chow who has started itching and losing hair
over the last couple of months. Vet thought it was seasonal
allergies and that they would go away once the cold weather started.
After 3 shots and cold weather definitely setting in, we aren't any
better. So....we're starting out on our own! I have a few questions
that I haven't found answers to:

First, I'll admit my naivety when talking about chicken. I'm hearing
that chicken and beef top the list when thinking about food
allergies, so I should start out with something brand new. I have a
freezer full of venison that is about a year old that we were going
to throw out, so I thought I'd start with it.....problem is that it
is has already been butchered into roasts, so no bone or organs. How
can I add these to the diet. Where do I just get bones and if I'm
just starting out, do they have to be deer bones?

2) I thought one was NEVER to give chicken bones to dogs because of
fear that they break and lodge in their throats? Boy do I have a lot
to learn.....

3) To confirm what I've already read --- we are to feed 2-3% of a
dogs weight, split up into a couple of meals?

4) Supplements: Is it ok to give human supplements of flaxseed oil
and Omega 3's? What would dosage be for a 58# dog?

Thanks for your help~

Jerri (mommy of Mocha)

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: New Girl on the Block....
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:05 pm ((PST))

Jerri,
Ok, newbie, welcome aboard, and you're in the right place.
NEVER EVER THROW MEAT AWAY, EVER EVER EVER:))))
In our world meat never goes bad, you can even get it from your friends and family from thier freezers and so on. The dogs can handle meat that has freezer burn, that has been thawed and refrozen, or even gone bad and turned stinky bad. Trust me, they can handle it. (you might not be able to but they can)
Answer to #1:
On the chicken and beef being tops for allergies that is right when you are dealing with kibble, usually not the same with raw fed dogs. And your vet is just guessing, since I figure he didn't do the major testing done to actually figure it out, and then he would've told you really what the allergies were. My Akita was allergic to wood, dust, grass, fleas, but none of her allergies were food related. (after testing) My danes came to me with allergies both, (as puppies) skin problems, and within two days on raw, (whole chickens where our menu) were gone. But if you are worried, the deer meat is fine to start with if you have a few weeks worth on hand. If you want to try chicken, you can, and see if it gives you any problems, I would almost be willing to bet it won't. You want to keep them on one source of meat for several weeks. And no bones or organs for a few weeks is just fine.
As far as organs and bones, for the first few weeks, just doing the meat, is fine, you can work the organs and bones in later, after the switch. Once you know the dogs are used to the meat, you can add in other things.
For your organs, you can get liver, of any kind, chicken, beef, or hearts, and so on, at the grocery store, and once a week for those is fine. I feed my Great Danes whole chickens, and they come with the organs inside them, each dog gets half a chicken and I split the organs with the two of them, and that is a meal for the night. And the bones on raw meat are soft, and do no harm to dogs, or cats, and they chew them up and eat them fine, no choking or getting caught in the throat, unless you have a gulper, then you think larger pieces so they absolutely have to chew the food. If it takes a whole chicken to slow down a dog, then do that, some people do that to keep it from choking down the food too fast. What ever is left, is kept for the next mealtime.
#2:
On the have a lot to learn, yes, but we all do, you'll get there, keep reading, asking questions, and letting us know how it goes, so we can help you out if an adjustment is needed.
#3:
2-3% is correct, and it doesn't have to be an exact science, if they are gaining, go less, if losing, give more. You know how your dog should look. If puppies, give what they should weigh. Splitting meals is great if your dogs are puppies, or just new, and finicky. If they catch on, once a day if fine, it's up to you on how easy it is for you and what your dogs like. And if they give you a hard time, don't worry, a dog can go for several days without food, but will eventually eat. Most pick up on it right away.
#4:
On suppliments, I only do Garlic/Brewers yeast, for flea control, and vitamin c, because it doesn't stay in the system and it helps with Giant Breed specific problems.
On the flaxseed oil and omegas, that is something, if you feed fish, (yes, fish is meat too) you won't need to do. If your dogs don't like fish, then you would want to consider it, (on doses, someone else here would be better suited to answer that, since I don't do it) because they need those things. My dogs didn't do fresh fish, but loved canned mackeral. I get it at the canned food warehouse when it is on sale, and it was suggested by someone here, since I figured mine would never eat fish, and it worked. Instead of rolling in it, they now eat it. And therefore I don't have to suppliment the diet much. The more variety you can give them in the meat, the less you have to suppliment. A good, variety, prey model diet, can meet all your dogs needs.
When you want to add in bones, do it with the meat, like bone in a hunk of what ever meat you have, like whole chickens, or a rack or ribs, and give them the whole rack, let them eat whatever part of the bones they want and then throw the rest away when they no longer have an interest. I also use pigs feet, any ribs, pork, beef, shanks, anything with a bone in it. But my dogs can handle any bones, they are giants, and are good with all bones. Most people don't let thier dogs eat, or chew on weight bearing bones, those would be the legs, and feet. Sometimes dogs can get carried away and hurt the teeth on these hard bones. Mine don't get carried away, if they can't eat the bones, they go to the next one. There isn't a bone my Zena won't chew on, she has a cow leg/foot in the back yard now, loves it. I have several more in the freezer. (my husband swears when he sees her with that leg, that there is a three legged cow somewhere out there) Our meat
guy gives us those for free:) I use the pork shoulder for a meal and save the bone out of it for when I need to keep one of them busy for a while. I just leave some meat on it:) I do that a couple of times and I have a couple of bones too.
It just takes time and patience to learn what they need and what they will or won't eat. And alot of trial and error, and error and error, and did I mention error?
And I figure, putting my money where the dogs mouth is, is way better than lining the pockets of a person who is usually only treating the symptoms, not the problem, so the intake of the food, was my best bet. What goes in is better, so the health should get better, and it did, and has since. I'm also hoping longevity will be a side effect of the diet for my Giant Breed dogs too, only time will tell on that one. I hope I answered your questions, more will answer them too, and probably different, we all have opinions.
Go with your gut, it is usually right most of the time, and it's the stomach too:)
Jeni
Owned, operated by, and often tricked by my two Great Danes, Zeus and Zena, our little Pomchi, Daisy, and the cat Lucky, and our newest addition, a Chihuahua, noname, but we will come up with one soon, he's Daisy's new playmate, so she doesn't get stepped on by the danes:)

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Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: New Girl on the Block....
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:05 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jerri Buiting" <jerribuiting@...>
wrote:

> 2) I thought one was NEVER to give chicken bones to dogs because of
> fear that they break and lodge in their throats? Boy do I have a lot
> to learn.....

Hi Jerri,
The great news is that you couldn't have come to a better place to
learn. Chicken bones are only dangerous, all bones for that matter,
when they are cooked. Raw chicken bones are completely edible for
dogs.
>
> 3) To confirm what I've already read --- we are to feed 2-3% of a
> dogs weight, split up into a couple of meals?

How many meals you feed is kind of optional, but when you divide 2-3%
of the dog's ideal adult weight into 2 feedings, you make the portions
kind of small for a really good dental chew. I would suggest that if
you feed twice a day now that you continue to do so at the beginning.
Keep an open mind and if it becomes something you are comfortable
with, i would recommend you drop down to once a day.
>
> 4) Supplements: Is it ok to give human supplements of flaxseed oil
> and Omega 3's? What would dosage be for a 58# dog

Flax seed oil is a grain based supplement and carnivores have no need
for, nor can they utilize, grain products, so i would recommend salmon
oil for adding 3's to the diet. The recommended dosage is 1000 mg per
20-30lbs of dog. People ones from Wal-Mart are fine.

Deer meat is, imo, the most desirable of all proteins. You are lucky
to have so much of it. I guess you'll probably get several
suggestions on how/when/what to start with, so my idea would be to
start with chicken for a week. In the beginning week, bone is
essential for stool control, it helps keep things firmed up. Though
you can mix bone and meat varieties, i wouldn't suggest it at the
start. Organs don't need to be the same as the meat you are feeding,
and you shouldn't feed any for at least a week. If you feed chicken
for a week and your dog doesn't have any loose stools, the second week
you could feed one meal of chicken and the second meal could be a
boneless hunk of deer meat. Dogs that are allergic to the chicken
that is cooked in kibble are usually not allergic to raw chicken. I
wouldn't restrict my menu because of that for the time being. HTH,Kathy

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Dental issues
Posted by: "Erin Hartiens-Santiago" erinhart75@yahoo.com erinhart75
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:42 pm ((PST))

> You'll have to watch your girl to make sure that she's not going to
get
> frustrated and just try swallowing something too large for her,
though. One
> of those "know thy dog" situations, yes?
>
> Casey
>
*********************************************
Thanks for the input Casey. I think you're totally right. Our vet is
very well-intentioned, but she hasn't taken the time to really
research raw feeding and she doesn't really endorse it (she's more of
the "I support your right to make your own choices" type). That
leaves me to do all the research on my own. I've been thinking a lot
about what I can do to encourage her to take her time. Since her
portions are fairly small, I am thinking I might start feeding larger
portions just once a day (versus the current twice per day schedule
she is on). That way she really has to work her jaws and work on the
teeth she has left. My biggest issue is that she will swallow a large
chunk whole, even if it's too big - so I end up having to scoop the
food out of her throat! We do feed them on our back porch and in the
yard area, so they have time to gnaw on their food...I just have to
teach her how to do this since she's never had to chew her food!

We've had a lot of success with raw feeding - we have four dogs and
one cat, all raw and all healthy. Our newest family member is an 8-wk-
old French Bulldog that we've just switched to raw in the past few
days (we just got him over the weekend from a non-raw breeder). There
is new information out there everyday, so I appreciate hearing the
experiences of fellow raw feeders.

So again, thank you!

Erin S.

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Where do you get your meat?
Posted by: "francesdrew" francesdrew@yahoo.com francesdrew
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:42 pm ((PST))

I am looking for new ideas of where to get meat/bones for my 3 large dogs. I currently
feed them chcken (that i buy bulk from Sam's and cut up myself), pork butt, beef meat and
beef liver and turkey (on sale that I cut up), plus chicken liver and gizzards. I am
wondering where people get the more odd things, like chicken legs, heads of any
animal...anything like that.

So...what kinds of meat do you feed and where do you get it...especially if it is an
"unusual" meat.

Thanks,
Frances

Messages in this topic (11)
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7b. Re: Where do you get your meat?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:46 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "francesdrew" <francesdrew@...> wrote:
> So...what kinds of meat do you feed and where do you get
it...especially if it is an
> "unusual" meat.

Hi Frances,
Going to a slaughter house is one option. Ethnic markets have lots of
non grocery store parts. Depending on where you live, you can order
heads and such on line.

http://www.prey4pets.com/servlet/StoreFront

http://www.taylorpondfarms.com/

Sorry i couldn't be more helpful. I go to the slaughter house to get
my unusual stuff. I feed lots of deer and cow heads in the winter and
add beef heart and deer trim to up the meat content. In the warmer
weather, i feed whatever deer scraps i have left in the freezer along
side chicken or pork or whatever i can find on sale. KathyM

Messages in this topic (11)
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7c. Re: Where do you get your meat?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:37 pm ((PST))

Hi Frances,

Depends on what kind of area you live in--rural/urban, etc... A few
ideas: Asian or Hispanic markets, finding
farmers/ranchers/breeders/hunters/fishermen/taxidermists/butchers/meat
& game processors online (craigslist, freecycle, etc.) or thru the
phone book and developing relationships and asking for anything they
have leftover or want to sell, see if you can special order anything
from your local markets (cases of beef heart or chicken feet maybe),
find a local buying co-op (let us know your area and maybe someone can
let you know--we have one for WA/OR and can get a lot of variety),
check the carnivore feed supplier yahoo group for sources...

Hope that helps,

Laurie


Messages in this topic (11)
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7d. Re: Where do you get your meat?
Posted by: "sisterloui" habershon@aol.com sisterloui
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:39 pm ((PST))

Hi there,

I am from the inner city of Sheffield in the uk.

I get most of my meat and bones from local butchers (within walking
distance from home) Once i proved i would be a regular collector they
were delighted to save all the meat scraps for me.

Occasionally i need to go a little further afield to the larger meat
market but if i go on a monday they are often selling the human quality
meats, that didnt sell over the weekend at a lower price. Good marrow
bones can always be found here as they do get full carcases to butcher.

Best wishes,
Jane
(sisterloui)

Messages in this topic (11)
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________________________________________________________________________

8a. Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
Posted by: "francesdrew" francesdrew@yahoo.com francesdrew
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:42 pm ((PST))

I have a 12 year old large dog (boxer, ridgeback mix) and she's been on raw for about 8
weeks now. She's looking healthy but her skin seems to be dry and a bit itchy. I've been
feeding chicken, beef, pork, turkey and sometimes eggs. I have started adding a little cod
liver oil to her diet, as she will not eat fish. Am I doing right, or is there anything else I
should consider?

I have 2 other dogs who do not seem to be suffering from dry skin.

Thanks,
Frances

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:01 pm ((PST))

"francesdrew" <francesdrew@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 12 year old large dog (boxer, ridgeback mix) and she's been
on raw for about 8
> weeks now. She's looking healthy but her skin seems to be dry and a
bit itchy. I've been
> feeding chicken, beef, pork, turkey and sometimes eggs. I have
started adding a little cod
> liver oil to her diet, as she will not eat fish.
*****
Take her off the cod liver oil and instead give her fish BODY oil. She
doesn't need the liver oil; it doesn't deliver the levels of Omega 3
faty acids that BODY oil does, but provides more vitamin A and D than
she needs. Look for a fish body oil (salmon or mixed fish, doesn't
matter) with a combined DHA/EPA amount of at least 300mg per capsule.
You can comfortably dose this at 1 capsule per 20 pounds of dog. At
this level there is little likelihood of generating loose stools.

Fish body oil may help with the skin; it will certainly support your
dog's immune system which at 12 years is probably a bit wheezy. Other
things to try are more dietary fat (at her age increase amounts slowly)
and more eggs, if she can digest them comfortably.

If dietary tweaks don't help, suspect dry heat and overall
environmental issues. While here on the West Coast winter generally
means rain, elsewhere the relative humidity can be very low. Also suss
out any meds she's on or excessive bathing.

HTH,
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:39 pm ((PST))

Hi again Frances,

The dryness/itchiness can sometimes just be a temporary symptom while a
dog adjusts. It also seems to happen sometimes when people feed a lot
of poultry and/or a lack of grass-fed/appropriately-fed prey animals.
They have different fat profiles (high in omega 6's, low in omega
3's). It could also be due to winter and being inside with dry heat.
If you're going to do a fish oil supplement, fish body oil seems to be
better than cod liver (check the archives if you don't get any more
responses on that).

Good luck,

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "cutensexyb89" cutensexyb89@yahoo.com cutensexyb89
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:42 pm ((PST))

I know it says to start off with one protein but while they were on
Canidae as a treat they would get raw beef bones, hearts and turkey
necks. So I guess I got to excited because I thought they were "used"
to having raw food, for a week I will do all chicken and I want to
supplement with an egg a day, is that ok? too much? What do you use
for treats? My dogs compete in agility and I'm pretty sure you cant
bring raw food. Also I have heard pork isn't great.
The girls are a little gassy tonight but I am sure that is normal. It
is a little distressing when I look online for info and see anti raw
sites, some have pics of dogs choking to death on bones, I was a
little taken back.

Also my pups are a little mutt, complete heinz 57 no one knows what
she is named Kahlie Jordan (pronounce cali)
and a rescue cocker spaniel narmed Kahrma Q How do you post pictures?
oh and I am Madie


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cutensexyb89" <cutensexyb89@>
> wrote:
> > So today I woke up and decided to go all raw :)
>
> Wow, great shopping job, and i love your enthusiasm. You might want to
> hold off feeding all that variety for a few weeks, though. Toss the
> stuff in the freezer, except for maybe the chicken, and hold off
> feeding it for the time being. Generally, it is recommended that you
> pick one protein source, i vote for chicken, and feed only that meat
> for a week. If all goes well, you can pick a new meat and introduce
> it the second week. In the course of several weeks, you can feed your
> way through chicken, pork, turkey, beef, whatever you can purchase to
> feed. Then, you'll be ready to open the freezer and try variety and
> mixing it up. KathyM
>


Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:46 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cutensexyb89" <cutensexyb89@...>
wrote:
>
> I want to supplement with an egg a day, is that ok? too much?

There is no reason to. There is plenty of time to give him eggs in
the future. I always advocate taking things slow and easy to avoid
digestive upsets. They are never pleasant.

> What do you use for treats?

Use whatever you have been using. I use soft commercial treats that
can be broken down in to very very small pieces. Treats don't have
to be large to be effective. They make up such a small part of the
diet as to be inconsequential.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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10a. Ok - I'm about ready to go for it!
Posted by: "jhusselstein" jhusselstein@yahoo.com jhusselstein
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:45 pm ((PST))

Hi there everyone! You are sure a great group to learn from -

My name is Jessica, and my dog is Kona - (Great Dane, 2 years old)
and I've been snooping around all of your raw feeding websites for
about 3 weeks now, maybe a month. I think I'm ready to make the
switch. I'm off work for the next few weeks, so I can be home to
keep an eye on her after she eats...

So, I think I'll start with the Chicken Backs, although I've never
seen them in the store, I could probably ask the butcher for a few,
or hack them off myself and cook the rest for my 2 legged
children...:)

I'm going to break out the old crate, and ( assuming she still fits
in it, ) feed her in there. Probably with a towel to keep down the
mess.

Do Crate feeders regularly bleach out the crate after the dog eats?
Maybe that Chlorox anywhere that is (supposed to be) safe around
food?

So, if Kona is about 120 pounds ( she's kinda scrawny - she won't
eat more than 3 or so cups of dry food,and you can JUst see all of
her ribs when she's stretched out..., I should bee feeding her about
a pound and a half a day, right?

As soon as her tummy is OK with the chicken backs, I'll move to
leg/thighs, and the organs from the innards, maybe one a day?

I'm guessing all that will take me the better part of a month,
right? Am I missing anything? I'm always up for learning how others
have tried things and applying them to my situation!

Thanks for everything so far - I'll be sticking around to see how it
plays out!
Jessica and Kona

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Ok - I'm about ready to go for it!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:36 pm ((PST))

"jhusselstein" <jhusselstein@...> wrote:
>
> So, I think I'll start with the Chicken Backs, although I've never
> seen them in the store, I could probably ask the butcher for a few,
> or hack them off myself and cook the rest for my 2 legged
> children...:)
*****
Chicken backs are all about bone. Bone is good, meat is better.
Although feeding a diet heavy on bone (backs or otherwise) gives one
a sense of confidence, it's false progress because a diet structured
heavily on bone does not--very simply--provide adequate meat. So if
you plan to start with chicken backs, I recommend you also start with
meat. Either feed chicken backs with chicken meat, or feed chicken
backs with other meat. Same meal. Chicken backs and meat. I've
found that chicken backs are so bony that they with virtually ANY
other meat make up meals that typically generate stools that do not
freak newcomers out.

Or you could feed chicken leg quarters. Or you could feed rib-in
chicken breasts. Or you could feed half a chicken.


> Do Crate feeders regularly bleach out the crate after the dog eats?
> Maybe that Chlorox anywhere that is (supposed to be) safe around
> food?
*****
Not if we can help it! It is not necessary to bleach out anything,
certainly not the close confines of a crate. First you have to
realize that most dogs clean up after themselves for fear of missing
something. Secondly, they don't make that much of a mess anyway.
And third, wiping down with a damp rag is plenty enough. If you want
to get fancy, you can make a vinegar/water spritz. And if you are
positively tormented by the notion that your dog might strew germs
about her own crate, you can wipe down once with hydrogen peroxide
and then a second time with vinegar/water. THAT would be heavy duty.
No bleach needed, no place.


> So, if Kona is about 120 pounds ( she's kinda scrawny - she won't
> eat more than 3 or so cups of dry food,and you can JUst see all of
> her ribs when she's stretched out..., I should bee feeding her
about
> a pound and a half a day, right?
*****
You want to feed her according to the weight she should be, not is
(unless of course her current weight is proper). Forget how much
kibble she's eating, raw is different altogether. If she "should"
weight 150, that would be perhaps THREE pounds a day. 150lb x 2% =
3lb.

One and a half pounds is 2% of 75 pounds.

You don't have to weigh, you don't have to measure, you do have to
feed to your dog's needs. If weighing helps now, weigh away, just
know that the weight of the food is less important than how the food
affects the dog. Your girl may require four pounds a day! Or not.
But I doubt she needs as little as 1-1/2pounds.


> > As soon as her tummy is OK with the chicken backs, I'll move to
> leg/thighs, and the organs from the innards, maybe one a day?
*****
One a day is what I can give my 30 pound Border Collie! Leg quarters
tend to run a pound a piece or less: not nearly enough for your
girl. Once you get beyond the generally artificial beginning diet,
you should be thinking half chickens at least. And you don't want to
be feeding all the liver all the time until your dog is very (as in
very) comfortable with her diet. If you want to add teensy bits and
pieces of liver early on, fine.

But please don't feed liver generously for some time. You'll produce
loose stools and you'll get all upset and scared and even though
loose stools rarely mean more than too much food, you'll have to be
calmed down and consoled and what you'll end up having to do is back
off the liver. So you might as well just do it now.

Chicken hearts are pretty benign IMO, and gizzards aren't organs at
all but muscle, so both of these parts can be fed from day one if
you've a mind to.


I'm guessing all that will take me the better part of a month,
> right?
*****
Don't put yourself on the clock. It takes as long as it takes.
Going slowly is generally more productive than zipping along, but
then again if things are going just GREAT you can pick up the pace a
bit. You must use your dog's progress to determine what you do and
where you go next. Always always be prepared to back off, slow down,
retreat to the last successful food if/when things go south.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12403

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. For liver...try searing....
From: Erin Hartiens-Santiago

2a. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: Penny (Nickles) Parker
2b. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: Giselle
2c. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: costrowski75
2d. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Introducing Myself!
From: katkellm

4a. Re: cat is joining us
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

5a. Re: OT Cruciate ligament tear -- OT - private responses requested
From: Sonja

6a. Dental issues
From: Erin Hartiens-Santiago
6b. Re: Dental issues
From: Casey Post

7a. Re: Eight wild Bunnies and Fish oil - muskrat and beaver
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: Eight wild Bunnies and Fish oil - muskrat and beaver
From: Susanne MacLeod

8a. ADMIN/Re: OT Cruciate ligament tear -- OT - private responses reques
From: costrowski75

9a. So I decided to switch
From: cutensexyb89
9b. Re: So I decided to switch
From: Giselle
9c. Re: So I decided to switch
From: katkellm
9d. Re: So I decided to switch
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
9e. Re: So I decided to switch
From: carnesbill

10a. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
From: Anna Labriola

11a. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
From: Dawn
11b. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
From: Michelle Grabert
11c. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
From: costrowski75
11d. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
From: Michelle Grabert

12a. Reposting: Eight wild Bunnies and Fish oil - muskrat and beaver
From: Susanne MacLeod

13. Feeding meat from ill animals
From: Maria


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. For liver...try searing....
Posted by: "Erin Hartiens-Santiago" erinhart75@yahoo.com erinhart75
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:06 pm ((PST))

My two of my four dogs refuse liver and kidney. I think something
with the texture is offensive to them. I tried mixing with egg...they
just licked the egg off. Mixing with other meats....they ate around
it. Even my cat was offended by the kidney (it smells pretty bad!). I
finally tried searing lightly (just enough to brown outside - about
15-20 seconds in a hot pan with a touch of oil) and they REALLY loved
it. Maybe it's psychological....They've trained me to give them
gourmet liver treats! haha

I also only feed the organ meats once a week (since it takes a little
more time to "cook" the meat) - plus they get such a small percentage
of that in their total diet, I can give them a bigger portion all at
once.

Good luck -
Cheers!
Erin Santiago and crew
(Sissy, Jake, Murray, Ollie and Maya)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> >There is less and less interest in liver lately
>
> Hi. I think that force feeding is not something Il ike to do to my
dog.I rather like my dog eats it with open paws.did you try many
tricks to feed it??such as....
>
> 1>Quick sear
> 2>serve freeze
> 3> Mix with raw Egg
> 4>Mix with Tripe
> 5> Flavoring the liver with garlic or fish oil
>
> etc??
>
>


Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "Penny (Nickles) Parker" loverladymaggiemae@yahoo.com loverladymaggiemae
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:01 pm ((PST))

I think that this is a little much for most of us!
Can we all take a deep breath and drop this topic?
Penny & The Menagerie

Messages in this topic (23)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:05 pm ((PST))

I'm breathing. Done, too.

Thanks, Penny!

TC
Giselle


On Dec 20, 2007 5:55 PM, Penny (Nickles) Parker <
loverladymaggiemae@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think that this is a little much for most of us!
> Can we all take a deep breath and drop this topic?
> Penny & The Menagerie
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (23)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:18 pm ((PST))

"Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@...> wrote:
>
> A person who uses the terms "fasting" and "starving"
interchangeably,
> and suggests that there is not much difference between the two,
> clearly knows very little about either.
*****
Nora, I suggest you can use these very indictments against yourself.
What you would have to change however would be to change "either"
to "dogs" in to your sentence "...clearly knows very little about
either."

It seems obvious from your website that a. what you know about
nutrition and health is based on human references, that b. as a vegan
you are not conversant with the needs of a carnivore, that c. your
interests are not to feed your dog a species appropriate diet, d.
your interests are not to help others feed THEIR dogs a species
appropriatet diet, and e. your interests are completely commercial.

I quote, from your website:
"Healthful living is a skill and an art that takes many years to
master. No matter what stage you're at in the process, the right kind
of guidance and information can bring about important turning points
in your personal health evolution. If your goal is optimal health via
a 100% raw vegan lifestyle, click here to find out how RawSchool.com
can help!"

I recommend you focus on what you know. The vegans on this list may
well be interested in your varied programs and some may choose to
avail themselves of the full $300/month continuing support you offer;
but I doubt very much they want or need your advice in feeding their
carnivorous wolves a species appropriate diet.

Please delete all advertising from further posts. Please consider
comparing apples to apples (raw or not) when you are choosing your
citations to prove a point.
Chris O


Messages in this topic (23)
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2d. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:19 pm ((PST))

ADMIN: This thread has plum wore itself out, and us as well. The
discussion is over. Thank you.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (23)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Introducing Myself!
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:38 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Amy T" <amypatriciatracy@...> wrote:
We live in the city of Chicago, and frequent the
> dog beach here year round.

Hi Amy,
Welcome to the list. I live about an hour and a half sw of Chicago.
I do lots of slaughter house surfing because i live way out in the
country, but i have a friend who goes to Peoria Meat Packing for raw
stuff and loves it.

Peoria Packing Butcher Shop
1300 West Lake Street
Chicago, IL 60607
312-738-1800

They have heads and legs and all kinds of stuff. You have to wear a
coat because the place is a locker with all the stuff laid out.

Also, you could order tripe and lots of stuff, when you are ready,
from Taylor Pond Farm.

http://www.taylorpondfarms.com/

I am glad your dog is doing good. Nice to meet you, KathyM


Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: cat is joining us
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:38 pm ((PST))


In a message dated 12/20/2007 5:06:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, "donna"
writes:

I have a 2 year old cat who is determined to share the
raw goodies and sits and watches the puppy eating and awaits her time
to pounce and steal her bone.. so i guess she is telling me she
wants a raw diet :)
to update...for a week i have been giving chicken legs... she is
doing great. I have put her in a crate to eat so I know where she is
at while eating and when done as she is not of course house trained

****
Hi, Donna from Alabama...I'm from Alabama, too, although I've lived in
Kentucky for 35 years.

Your cat is wise and perceptive, and maybe even precocious....People are
usually saying they can't get their cat to touch raw meat. :) The rawcat sister
yahoo list mainly instructs on how to get cats transitioned over time, but
will discuss anything else somebody needs to deal with about rawfeeding. Like
with the dogs, they need a little bit of bones, a little bit of organs, and a
whole lot of meat.

Lynda

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: OT Cruciate ligament tear -- OT - private responses requested
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:51 pm ((PST))

I have a dog who's an orthopedic disaster. With that being the case, I know of some great resources for information. If you want to know the pros/cons of traditional surgery vs TPLO, talk to the folks at the Orthodogs group. I've leaned heavily on these people three times in one year, I would have had a difficult time without 'em.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodogs/

If you're interested in recovery without surgery, steer towards the Conservative Management group.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ConservativeManagement/

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Dental issues
Posted by: "Erin Hartiens-Santiago" erinhart75@yahoo.com erinhart75
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:51 pm ((PST))

So my 7-yr-old, 42-pound Boxer (rescued approx. 5 years ago and
started on raw in August 2007) has had some pretty significant dental
issues over the past years. Unfortunately, I only learned about raw
feeding recently, so we're past the point of repair at this point.
She very bad teeth and is missing almost all her teeth in the front,
so she has trouble chewing large portions of meat. Her muscle meat
intake is so small (weight wise) that the chunks really are too small
as is (she just swallows without chewing). She DOES chew if I give
her ribs or leg quarters (too big to swallow whole!), but it seems to
be such a challenge for her take 20-30 minutes to get through 1/2
pound of meat. Her vet thinks that we are making the problem worse,
and that the best solution would be to give her bite-sized chunks of
meat since she is swallowing everything without chewing (her logic
being to avoid a blockage and to avoid "wearing down her teeth"). I'm
very interested in a second opinion at this point!

So...advice please!

Thanks a million!

Erin Santiago and crew

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Dental issues
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:14 pm ((PST))


>Her vet thinks that we are making the problem worse,
> and that the best solution would be to give her bite-sized chunks of
> meat since she is swallowing everything without chewing (her logic
> being to avoid a blockage and to avoid "wearing down her teeth").

Erin,

What your vet fails to understand is that eating whole foods that require
work will help her keep what teeth she has left!

I was feeding a cat with three teeth left in his head and while he couldn't
eat bones (he had to have ground bone-in stuff for bone content in his
life), he could eat whole foods like pork ribs and turkey drumsticks once he
developed a technique that worked for him (holding down with front feet like
a dog and tearing off what bits he could through sheer force of will!).

To the day he died, that cat had three of the cleanest teeth in town! And
his jaws were fearsome strong like a snapping turtle (and his neck and
shoulders were heavily muscled from the workouts, too). Even when he was so
ill at the end of his life (lymphoma), every vet who opened his mouth would
say, "Wow!" because they were used to nearly toothless cats who had funky
teeth and mushy gums - not this cat! Those three little teeth gleamed and
his gums were firm, strong, and clean.

Oral health is more than teeth - it's the whole mouth!

So I would definitely keep feeding whole foods to your girl. She may have
trouble with poultry skin (my cat did), so it might be helpful for her if
you scored it up with a knife (easier to do if it's partially frozen - trust
me), first. You may also want to see if she does better with partially
frozen whole foods? My neighbor's dog has VERY worn teeth (he's kibble fed,
btw) and when he comes by for his "secret" rat snacks (it's our little
secret - his owner would freak out if she knew because she's highly
rodent-phobic), I make sure that he only gets mostly frozen ones because he
cannot break them up with his worn-down teeth, otherwise. Man, that dog
loves his rats! <g>

You'll have to watch your girl to make sure that she's not going to get
frustrated and just try swallowing something too large for her, though. One
of those "know thy dog" situations, yes?

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Eight wild Bunnies and Fish oil - muskrat and beaver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:41 pm ((PST))

"Susanne MacLeod" <suzmacleod@...> wrote:
> How long do I need to freeze for any parasite (tape, and tulamaria)?
*****
There is clear evidence that tularemia is not the big deal for dogs
that many make it out to be. I recommend you freeze the bunnies solid
and leave them frozen for a week. That'll take care of them tapes.


> Also the bones seem very very sharp.
*****
I've only fed domestic rabbits and I'm not sure of the age but my guess
is they were no older than middle age. The bones were not a problem to
my 30 pound border collie, nor to my 10 pound cat. The dog ate the
bones all up, the cat ate the ends but left the long middles. The
sharpness of the bones did not appear to be an issue.


> My friend who also took care of Joey and Kate, gave them WAY TOO much
> Artic Vigor (seal oil) - a whole bottle. A bottle usually lasts me 2-
> 3 months. Should I be concerned? Kate's had some runny poo's, but
> that's about it.
*****
I don't think you're likely to see much more than runny poo's. You
should ask your friend if there were any incidents during your
absence. The results of excess oil consumption are not likely to go
unnoticed.


> I also am planning on moving back home and will have access to
> musjrat, beaver and moose...any advice?
*****
Certainly all three are species appropriate. I think you should count
your blessings!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Eight wild Bunnies and Fish oil - muskrat and beaver
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:50 pm ((PST))

Chris...you're always there to guide me - thanks so much. Gosh ...I
knew soooo little just over 2 1/2 years ago. I have since switched so
many people to feeding their dogs raw...so glad we connected. Thanks
for all the guidance!
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. ADMIN/Re: OT Cruciate ligament tear -- OT - private responses reques
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:46 pm ((PST))

The original poster properly requested private responses. Don't take
any more chances. Either post privately or take the discussion to
RawChat. This is not the list on which to discuss cruciate ligament
tears. Further postings will be deleted.
Thanks.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. So I decided to switch
Posted by: "cutensexyb89" cutensexyb89@yahoo.com cutensexyb89
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:54 pm ((PST))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!


So today I woke up and decided to go all raw :)

I have been researching it all day and decided to go out and buy some
basics, here is what I got

pork shoulder
turkey drummetes
chicken drumsticks
beef feet
chicken leg quarters
pork neckbones
pig feet
eggs
beef hearts
chicken liver
shoulder cross rib steak
7 lbs rib bones
chicken thighs
lamb shoulder/ neck slices
leg quarters


So now I don't know what to do, I know they need about 8-9 ounces a
day. But I am really worried. They are so active, I worry they won't
get proper nutrition or that they will get contaminated meat, some of
it was a little brown and smelled a little off. Can that hurt them.
What would a sample day of food be, they weigh 15 lbs each.

Today I gave them each
2 beef rib bones
1 egg
pig foot

is that too much? too little?
I am kinda freaking out here.
I appreciate any help
Thanks

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:10 pm ((PST))

Hi, uh, cutensexy!
You might want to sign your name! ; )
Welcome to the raw side!

Um, I don't recommend that you feed ALL that variety this week, or even in
the next month!

Here's a beginning plan to start off with;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*
Generally no, off meat won't hurt a dog. But, again, I don't recommend that
you start out by feeding it, either.

The wonderful thing about raw feeding, is that you get to use your
considerable common sense and knowledge of your dogs to decide when they
need more food to maintain their weight, or less food to lose a couple
ounces/pounds.

A species appropriate whole prey model diet requires only a few ingredients
to provide all the nutrients that a dog needs.
meat - lots of it! This includes muscle, skin, fat and connective tissue.
edible bone - as little as 10% -if they can't consume it, and digest it, it
doesn't count as part of the diet.
organs - 3-5% liver and 5-7% "other" - no need to introduce this in the
first month.

TC
Giselle with Bea in New Jersey


On Dec 20, 2007 7:58 PM, cutensexyb89 <cutensexyb89@yahoo.com> wrote:

> MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!
>
> So today I woke up and decided to go all raw :)
>
> <snip>
>
> is that too much? too little?
> I am kinda freaking out here.
> I appreciate any help
> Thanks
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

9c. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:50 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cutensexyb89" <cutensexyb89@...>
wrote:
> So today I woke up and decided to go all raw :)

Wow, great shopping job, and i love your enthusiasm. You might want to
hold off feeding all that variety for a few weeks, though. Toss the
stuff in the freezer, except for maybe the chicken, and hold off
feeding it for the time being. Generally, it is recommended that you
pick one protein source, i vote for chicken, and feed only that meat
for a week. If all goes well, you can pick a new meat and introduce
it the second week. In the course of several weeks, you can feed your
way through chicken, pork, turkey, beef, whatever you can purchase to
feed. Then, you'll be ready to open the freezer and try variety and
mixing it up. KathyM

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

9d. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:50 pm ((PST))

Good for you, raw is great.
Now, do a little more research, you're gonna need it so will the dogs.
You need to stick to one source of meat for a few weeks. You have a nice variety there, but too much for starters.
Try just working with one meat, maybe just chicken, it's cheap and easy to come by. If you get it whole, you have your meat, bones, and organs, all right there, and you can cut it up, and make it meal size for your dogs.
Keep up one meat source for a while until your dogs are having great poos and eating good, and letting you know they are ready, like I said, a few weeks.
Then try introducing a new source of meat, a little into the chicken arena at a time.
Do some more research, start with the chicken. Keep up the faith you're on the right track and I applaud your gonghoness:)
But for the dogs sake, keep it simple, for a few weeks.
And food that is smelly usually ok, but not to start out with, freeze it and wait for a month or two, and them when they are used to a variety, then you can add that stuff into the mix.
and let us know who you are, we love names. And tell us about your dogs, what kinds, how old, and how long you've had them.
Jeni
owned, tricked daily, and often fooled alot by my two Great danes, Zeus and Zena, and our Pomchi, Daisy, our cat Lucky, and our newest addition, noname, our little chihuahua.

._,___

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

9e. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:50 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cutensexyb89" <cutensexyb89@...>
wrote:

> I have been researching it all day and decided to go out and
> buy some
> basics, here is what I got

Evidently "researching all day" is not quite enough. You need to do
a little more. What you read is probably good for feeding raw, the
beginning phases of switching a dog is a little more precise. Check
out the web page listed under my name below. It is my
recomendations for switching a dog to a raw diet. It will
definately answer some questions you have and will point you in the
right direction.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
Posted by: "Anna Labriola" taggartgalt@yahoo.com taggartgalt
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:54 pm ((PST))

Yay!!!

Anna and Khan

Hannah is
> back to normal now that I realize I am feeding way to much.

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
Posted by: "Dawn" draine9543@gmail.com dawnsdogs2004
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:54 pm ((PST))


Andrea...thank you!

Problem is that I "have" to grind.
Not about wanting to grind, I have to.
My dogs jaw is only hinged on 1 side of his head.
the other side is held in place by tendons and muscle.

So I will take a hock if they offer it,
I will ask them to cut up in small chunks for me.
When I do offer my dog a rec. bone.
I wait for him to clean it...when he starts gnawing
on the bare bone...sadly, I have to take it away.

~~Dawn~~

Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:54 pm ((PST))

Could someone please tell me what pig trotters are? thanks. Michelle

sisterloui <habershon@aol.com> wrote: ((sorry if this is a duplicate posting...aol crashed ...again LOL ))

Hi there,

It may be worth asking what part of the pigs they will actually be
throwing away.

Pigs used to be slaughtered where I live and very very little was
thrown away.

It may be a cultural thing but here in the uk trotters, stomach
lining, lungs, testes, intestines (used as sausage casings) brains
made into brawn and even blood (made into black pudding) are
regularly eaten.

The only thing i can remember not being used are the stomach, bowel
and intestine "contents".

If I get pigs trotters for my dogs my father often pinches a few to
roast for supper.

The only thing not edible on a pig is the "squeak"

I know very little about the Amish but I think they would be as
efficient in the raising and butchery of live stock. You may be
surprised at how few leftovers there actually are.

Good luck, and i look forwards to hearing about your experience.
Best wishes,
Jane
(sisterloui)


---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________

11c. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:05 pm ((PST))

Michelle Grabert <chalienme@...> wrote:
>
> Could someone please tell me what pig trotters are?
*****
They be feet.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________

11d. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:50 pm ((PST))

Thankyou,,, michelle

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote: Michelle Grabert <chalienme@...> wrote:
>
> Could someone please tell me what pig trotters are?
*****
They be feet.
Chris O


---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Reposting: Eight wild Bunnies and Fish oil - muskrat and beaver
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:54 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne MacLeod"
<suzmacleod@...> wrote:
>
> Hi gang...I just got back from out East and I was able to bring 8
wild
> rabbits. They are guted and skinned. I also brought 60 oysters I
> picked out of the FREEZING ocean for me... :)
> So...I can't seem to get a straight answer from anywhere, so
perhaps
> some of you could shed some light.
> How long do I need to freeze for any parasite (tape, and
tulamaria)?
> Also the bones seem very very sharp. I cut each rabbit in four
> pieces; basically a leg and some attached for a meal.
> My friend who also took care of Joey and Kate, gave them WAY TOO
much
> Artic Vigor (seal oil) - a whole bottle. A bottle usually lasts
me 2-
> 3 months. Should I be concerned? Kate's had some runny poo's,
but
> that's about it.
> I also am planning on moving back home and will have access to
> musjrat, beaver and moose...any advice?
> Thanks a bunch,
> Suz Kate and Joey
>


Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13. Feeding meat from ill animals
Posted by: "Maria" plava_93@yahoo.com plava_93
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:10 pm ((PST))

I posted a while back about goats with copper deficincy. I got three of
them and the owner sent the livers off to be tested. They had CAE
(Caprine arthritis Encephalitis)
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/caefaq.aspx

Would feeding these goats harm mine and my cousins dogs? Since the
virus often passed from doe to kid the woman is probably going to have
this happen to all of her goats. She already has two more that I will
be getting next month, their joints get really bad at about 3-5 years
of age and most of her goats are around that age.

Thank you.
Maria

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12402

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Eight wild Bunnies and Fish oil - muskrat and beaver
From: Susanne MacLeod

2a. Re: UK chicken/Moral support please!
From: Sarah

3a. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: krheintgen
3b. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: katkellm
3c. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: Sandee Lee
3d. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: Giselle

4a. OFF TOPIC - freezers
From: Erika
4b. Re: OFF TOPIC - freezers
From: T Smith

5a. Re: blood in stools
From: Sandee Lee
5b. Re: blood in stools
From: Julie Foster
5c. Re: blood in stools
From: carnesbill

6a. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
From: Giselle
6b. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
From: Laurie Swanson
6c. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
From: jesperanueva
6d. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
From: Giselle

7a. Re: posting
From: Casey Post

8a. Re: OT Cruciate ligament tear -- OT - private responses requested
From: Angela Mariajo

9. Re: new to raw ... my picky eater
From: paul holt

10a. Re: runny stools
From: carnesbill

11a. Pork?
From: joan
11b. Re: Pork?
From: Andrea
11c. Re: Pork?
From: Giselle

12a. Introducing Myself!
From: Amy T
12b. cat is joining us
From: donna

13a. For liver...try searing....
From: Erin Hartiens-Santiago


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1. Eight wild Bunnies and Fish oil - muskrat and beaver
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:05 am ((PST))

Hi gang...I just got back from out East and I was able to bring 8 wild
rabbits. They are guted and skinned. I also brought 60 oysters I
picked out of the FREEZING ocean for me... :)
So...I can't seem to get a straight answer from anywhere, so perhaps
some of you could shed some light.
How long do I need to freeze for any parasite (tape, and tulamaria)?
Also the bones seem very very sharp. I cut each rabbit in four
pieces; basically a leg and some attached for a meal.
My friend who also took care of Joey and Kate, gave them WAY TOO much
Artic Vigor (seal oil) - a whole bottle. A bottle usually lasts me 2-
3 months. Should I be concerned? Kate's had some runny poo's, but
that's about it.
I also am planning on moving back home and will have access to
musjrat, beaver and moose...any advice?
Thanks a bunch,
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: UK chicken/Moral support please!
Posted by: "Sarah" hecarte@hotmail.com sarah_uk_2000_2001
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:06 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Scholten <shirl-ed@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Sarah,
>
> I'm sure the fresh, raw chicken in UK stores is just as it should be,
but you will more likely find the frozen chicken parts to have 'added
water'

I've only fed fresh chicken so far, so I'm hoping it was just the fact
he ate it too quickly. Most of the vomiting was after beef heart
(although he'd eaten it no problem for about 4 days prior), then after
some mackerel (this was the first time he'd had fresh, raw fish).

I gve him one lightly scrambled egg today and he's been his usual
self. No vomiting and pooping fine! I'm going to give him some
chicken tomorrow and see how he goes.

Thanks everyone for all the help.

Sarah (UK)

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "krheintgen" krheintgen@comcast.net krheintgen
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:29 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@...> wrote:
>
> Kathy,
>
> A person who uses the terms "fasting" and "starving"
interchangeably,
> and suggests that there is not much difference between the two,
> clearly knows very little about either.

I believe you have mis-interpreted my emails. I did not, at least I
did not intend to equate fasting and starving. All I said is that one
would not delibrately deprive a dog of food when it was legitimately
hungry just because that sometimes happens to wolves.

Please do not get all worked up. My point is that everytime a dog
does not eat it is not a fast. If you look at the chain of emails
that preceeded mine you will see the context. I am not the only one
with this opinion. Chris, one of the moderators, posted at the start
of the string *** "Far as I know, "fasting" is a philosophical
construct that doesn't apply to dogs."

> You can't make a case against fasting

I am not sure I am trying to "make a case against fasting..." I was
saying that the poster's dog was not fasting when it refused its
breakfast... and there is no reason to "fast" a dog just for the fast
itself. You disagree with me. That is fine. It does not bother
me. Apparently it bothers you if anyone has a different opinion. I
am sorry about that.

> Well, I would suggest that most domestic dogs *are* sick, but that's
> really beside the question.

OK... so....?

The kind of fasting that is typically
> discussed here is maintenance fasting for asymptomatic dogs, where a
> dog is simply not fed for one or two days out of the week, much like
> what you do with your dogs.

I do not maintenance fast my dogs. And I think each of the other
listers responding to the origianl email also said such fasting in
not required....

This discussion we're having here is
> distinct because it's most likely the first time anyone has ever
> suggested or recommended *extended* fasts (4+ days) for the
treatment
> of acute or chronic symptoms in dogs.

I had absolutely NO IDEA that this is what "we" were discussing. The
string you have hi-jacked was started by asking if a dog should be
fasted once a month... no one that I saw was discussing withholding
food for 4 or more days. I have not been and do not intend to
discuss this.


> "A dog that refused one meal is said to be "fasting" I do not agree
> this is true."
>
> The scenario you describe is not what's being discussed here.

Yes, sorry, but that IS what the string was discussing. You are the
one that changed it without letting anyone else know.

> Therapeutic fasting is not determined by whether a dog will choose
to eat if given the opportunity. Fasting for therapeutic purposes is
> unilaterally decided upon and directed by the owner/guardian.
>

I absolutely agree -- that is fasting. I do not do it. I do not think
it is necessary. WE DISAGREE, get over it.

>
> I'm grateful to have had the opportunity to talk more about
fasting.
> It is a tool that has too long been ignored by dog owners, to their
> detriment (the owners and the dogs!).

You are very welcome. I am just sorry that I had no idea what it was
you were talking about. I am also sorry that you jumped all over my
email when I was NOT talking about that. I was clarifying that a dog
who refuses a meal is not fasting. I am glad to see, by your
definiton of fasting, that you do agree with me on that!

Perhaps you should go back to the original post and repsnd to that
person - you might also address each of the other posters who
responded as I did -- fasting is not necessary, going without food
for a day is not fasting. Big meals ar egood and may require not
eating for a day or so afterwards...apparently they are all also
misleading the poor soles on this list and need to be educated as
well.

>
> Well wishes,
> Nora


You too.
Kathy R

Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:18 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@...> wrote:

> But to imply the evidence isn't there is disingenous, and does a
> disservice to the members here who are honestly and earnestly seeking
> truth.

Hi Nora,
Since no one has determined that you are the consummate authority on
raw feeding dogs or fasting them, well at least i haven't, it very
well could be you who are doing a disservice to the members here who
are honestly seeking the truth. Your first post, unless Yahoo search
is wrong, was Nov. 13, 2007. As far as i can tell, you never
introduced yourself which is normal list etiquette. Kathy R has been a
long time fellow raw feeder and contributor and would never be
disingenuous, and i find your personal assault on her character
offensive. So in the interest of being sincere, on your part, would
you please post an intro? If my archive/search results are wrong, i
apologize. In another post, i asked you about what foods you fed your
dog that she suffered and what foods are superior and why. You must
have missed my post because of the high list volume and didn't
respond. I don't mean so sound like a beach, but you kind of just
rode in and declared yourself the new sheriff in town.:) KathyM

Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:45 pm ((PST))

And wasn't that the point....to get her misguided notions onto the list? In
order to believe that fasting is the cure-all for all the ills of man and
beast, you need to believe that everything is caused by what she terms
"toxemia". And of course it is absurd to think everything is related to
toxins in the blood.

Her website explains a lot.....and of course she'll "coach" you for a nice
hefty fee! :)

Meanwhile we can't get any response to repeated questions about the criteria
used for her high poultry, limited protein, low fat diet. Hmmmm.....

Sandee & the Dane Gang

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "krheintgen" <krheintgen@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@> wrote:

>This discussion we're having here is
> distinct because it's most likely the first time anyone has ever
> suggested or recommended *extended* fasts (4+ days) for the
treatment
> of acute or chronic symptoms in dogs.

I had absolutely NO IDEA that this is what "we" were discussing. The
string you have hi-jacked was started by asking if a dog should be
fasted once a month... no one that I saw was discussing withholding
food for 4 or more days. I have not been and do not intend to
discuss this.


Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:50 pm ((PST))

Nora, I find your posts arrogant, tedious and self serving in the extreme -
not to mention annoying and misdirected.

Surely, it has not escaped the notice of all the raw feeders, newbie and
experienced alike, who went to your website (posted helpfully in your sig)
and found your Yahoo list, and noticed, as I'm sure you did, that the nearly
10,000 members on this list provided you with a much larger target audience
for marketing your business than your own of 500.

Meanwhile the nice lady who started this topic and posted the question about
her dog's problems has been mostly forgotten. Not to mention that her thread
was hijacked by you without so much as a 'by your leave'.

Clearly, her use of the term 'fast' was not meant in a provocative way, may
have been partly humorous in her second post and was btw of her real
concern.

Which, I think, was that her dog be well fed, healthy and not go hungry, no
matter if a meal was skipped by the dog's design or by her own intentional
plan or not.

Geraldine's original and subsequent post;
*
fasting question

I understand fasting one day a month is good for dogs, it's also good
for people. How old should the dog be before I start this routine? Is
it ok to give her chicken or beef broth during this time or just water.
My little maltipoo is doing GREAT on RMB!!!

Thanks everyone,
geraldine

* * Re: fasting question*
*
My take-away from all of the input is for me to listen to my dog. I
am truly a food pusher even with humans. I just like to see animals
and people eat; a comfort thing I guess. Anyway, I keep thinking she
has to eat breakfast and dinner. However, unless I offer a fantastic
treat in the morning my little girl is not interested in eating
until much later in the day. I guess she is sort of mini fasting
herself not imposed by me. I will learn to understand and go with
what comes natural for her.

Thanks everyone,
geraldine*

Geraldine, you seem to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff pretty
well! Listening to and learning from our own dogs is a good plan. "Know Thy
Dog" is a great maxim to live by.

TC
Giselle

On Dec 20, 2007 3:45 PM, Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:

> And wasn't that the point....to get her misguided notions onto the list?
> In
> order to believe that fasting is the cure-all for all the ills of man and
> beast, you need to believe that everything is caused by what she terms
> "toxemia". And of course it is absurd to think everything is related to
> toxins in the blood.
>
> Her website explains a lot.....and of course she'll "coach" you for a nice
> hefty fee! :)
>
> Meanwhile we can't get any response to repeated questions about the
> criteria
> used for her high poultry, limited protein, low fat diet. Hmmmm.....
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "krheintgen" <krheintgen@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>, "Nora
> Lenz" <nmlenz@> wrote:
>
> >This discussion we're having here is
> > distinct because it's most likely the first time anyone has ever
> > suggested or recommended *extended* fasts (4+ days) for the
> treatment
> > of acute or chronic symptoms in dogs.
>
> I had absolutely NO IDEA that this is what "we" were discussing. The
> string you have hi-jacked was started by asking if a dog should be
> fasted once a month... no one that I saw was discussing withholding
> food for 4 or more days. I have not been and do not intend to
> discuss this.
>
>
>


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Messages in this topic (19)
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4a. OFF TOPIC - freezers
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:30 am ((PST))

If you know someone who is handy you could build a box out of plywood around the freezer (like a trunk of sorts) with a lid. Make the box about 3 -4 inches larger than the freezer and then fill the gap with insulation. Be sure to cut a hole in the back and put in a vent where the motor is so that it can get ventalation and will not overheat. This should help with the electric bill and keep all the elements like rain out of the freezer.

I've thought of building a similar thing in the future for myself so that I can take advantage of herd culls even when my indoor freezer is full! If your patio is in shade for most of the day you should be fine :)

Lots of people just stick these chest freezers out on the back patio and wrap insulation around them or keep them in the garage. I think the insulated box is a much better idea personally ;)

Erika


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4b. Re: OFF TOPIC - freezers
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:18 pm ((PST))

+++Mod note: pls sign and trim messages. This message trimmed by a mod, but we can't sign it for you. ++++++++++++


We have ours outside.


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5a. Re: blood in stools
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:45 am ((PST))

I am still not certain from your description exactly what you are feeding.
What is a complete raw food? How much meat are you feeding? Are the
morning meals mainly meat/fat?

Veggies are not beneficial and could possibly be taking up room in the diet
that should be filled with nice meat. They don't need yogurt or cottage
cheese. Eggs are great, but feed the whole thing.

Only you know how much meat/bone you are feeding...should be close to 80%
meat and only 10% bone. If you want to put weight on a dog you either need
to feed more food or more meat and fat.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "juliarna" <juliarna@yahoo.co.uk>

TWO days a complete raw food with meat offal and veges
The rest of the week they get
either tripe beef chicken or lamb. Also twice a week a raw egg yolk.
Twice a week sardines or tuna
Twice a week yoghurt and cottage cheese.
That is the morning meal, on the evening they have chicken carcus or
breat of lamb. Sometimes pigs feet or tails.


Messages in this topic (9)
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5b. Re: blood in stools
Posted by: "Julie Foster" juliarna@yahoo.co.uk juliarna
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:18 pm ((PST))

=++Mod note: pls sign and trim messages. This one trimmed for you. +++

Hi Complete raw is a block of either tripe or some other meat. It contains meat offal and veg. The morning meal contain all the other stuff like the yoghurt and cheese and fish. (mainly meat) as mine are mostly big dogs they get between 3/4 lb to a pound of meat. Then the meaty bones of a night. So should I feed 2lb of meat to the lad I am concerned about?
Thanks for your reply and hope this explains more.

Messages in this topic (9)
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5c. Re: blood in stools
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:54 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Julie Foster <juliarna@...> wrote:
>
> So should I feed 2lb of meat to the lad I am concerned about?

Ok Julie,
I don't know what book you read but it completely lead you astray.
Veggies, yogurt, and cheese don't belong in a carnivore's diet.
Forget about the concept of meat and meaty bones. Instead, think of
animal parts.

Now to answer your question. If your dog weighs somewhere between
80 and 120 lbs, 2 lbs might be a good place to start. The 2 lbs
should be meat, bones, and organs. Nothing else. Mostly meat, some
bone, some organs. Exact percentages aren't critical. I suspect
your dog's problem is because his body hasn't adjusted to digesting
real food. This should clear up in a couple more weeks. Some dogs
might take a little longer.

Check out my web page listed below my signiture for more information.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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6a. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:56 am ((PST))

Hi, Jane!
Its really a "Wait 'n See" and "Know thy Dog" thing. ^_^

Gotts to get some experience under your belts, your dog and you, to find
out. And, it varies - what goes in directly affects what comes out. Bonier
meals tend to be firmer, even whitish and crumbly, while boneless meals tend
to be softer and looser. Fatty meals can result in light colored runny poops
and meals that are heavy on squidgey ick organ and heart can be very dark
and loose or pasty. And, all of it is normal!

Try to feed lots of meat, about 80%, and a little bone, about 10% to avoid
extremes of doggy poo at first. Hold off on feeding organs at all, until you
get through several weeks of successful raw feeding and have introduced a
few different proteins.

Expect that he may have up to several days of no poop after beginning raw
feeding. Raw is so much more digestible and bioavailable, that his body may
take almost all of it into his system and have very little waste to excrete.

TC
Giselle

On Dec 20, 2007 3:18 AM, jesperanueva <jesperanueva@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi everyone!
> I can't even begin to tell you how the topics posted on this site
> has helped me . I have a 12 y/o min. schnauzer and am so worried that
> his age will have an affect on how well he adjusts to the RAW diet. I
> have heard people say that he will be pooping less but is there a
> rough estimate on how often I should expect him to poop? Once a day
> and how many days should I let go by before thinking he is
> constipated? He isn't having a problem at the time but I know poop
> has tell tale signs of health so just wanted to know for early
> detection ^^ =)
>
> Thnx in advance for helping a newb!
> Jane
>
>
>


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6b. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:18 pm ((PST))

Hi Jane,

It just depends on what you feed, how much you feed, how often you
feed, and your dog's body! My dog who's been raw most of his life gets
fed a variety of things--some bonier, some boneless, some larger meals,
some smaller, etc. So he poops on varying schedules/amounts. He might
go every day or every other day or every few days sometimes. I don't
think he's gone more than 3-4 days without pooping. Then there's the
occasional day when he goes 2 or 3 times. But yes, the volume is less
ever since I cut out veggies. He used to poop out a lot of
indigestible carrots. :-)

My other new dog I just switched 2 days ago hasn't pooped those last 2
days. This is common for newbie dogs and I've given him meals on the
smaller side too, so I'm not concerned. But I may also be feeding a
bit too much bone, so if it continues more than another day or 2, I'll
probably add more meat/reduce bone content.

If your dog isn't straining to poop or pooping really hard stools, I
would think he's probably not constipated.

Hope that helps,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jesperanueva" <jesperanueva@...>
wrote:
> I
> have heard people say that he will be pooping less but is there a
> rough estimate on how often I should expect him to poop? Once a day
> and how many days should I let go by before thinking he is
> constipated?

Messages in this topic (5)
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6c. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
Posted by: "jesperanueva" jesperanueva@yahoo.com jesperanueva
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:19 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
Thank you so much Giselle!
Your post has really eased the worrywart in me =) I guess in the
end if he's still urinating and continues to thrive with more energy
then it's a good thing even if he is not pooping as much as he used to =)

Thnx tons!

Jane

Messages in this topic (5)
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6d. Re: Older dog and poop schedule
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:13 pm ((PST))

Smaller, less frequent poops are a GOOD thing - it means that 1) Your dog is
able to utilize more of what he is being fed and 2) You are not wasting $$
feeding stuff that does your dog no good and just comes out the other end,
and causes you more work to clean up!

Winners all 'round!

^_^

TC
Giselle


On Dec 20, 2007 3:13 PM, jesperanueva <jesperanueva@yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
> Thank you so much Giselle!
> Your post has really eased the worrywart in me =) I guess in the
> end if he's still urinating and continues to thrive with more energy
> then it's a good thing even if he is not pooping as much as he used to =)
>
> Thnx tons!
>
> Jane
>
>
>


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7a. Re: posting
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:02 pm ((PST))

Juliarna,

It's not you, it yahoogroups. Sometimes posts go right through, sometimes
they take time. If you don't see your posting right away, give yahoogroups
a while to get its brain sorted out...

Casey


Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: OT Cruciate ligament tear -- OT - private responses requested
Posted by: "Angela Mariajo" angela.mariajo@yahoo.com angela.mariajo
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:17 pm ((PST))

I am going to take a chance and answer this here so others can
benefit, but we can continue offline if you need more information.

I also rawfeed and I have a PBT (about 45 pounds) that had the same
problem Nov last year. We opted to do the ACL surgery, did the
rehab, restricted activities etc. BUT she managed to tear the same
ACL AGAIN.

This time I am giving her liquid glucosamine/chondrotin/msm formula
called LEVEL 5000 (double doses) and her leg is improving. We are
continuing ROM (range of motion) exercises, a good healthy raw diet
and restricted activity.

Unless you plan on doing a TPLO (Tibia plateau leveling ostemotomy)
doing the typical repair (banding I think they call it) MAY NOT WORK.

If we had to do it all over again I would have done a TPLO on Bonnie
since we had another dog (a rottie) that had to have this procedure
done and NEVER had a problem.

You can contact me offline for more information if you like.

Angela.Mariajo@yahoo.com


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "krheintgen" <krheintgen@...>
wrote:
>
> I am looking for someone who has had some experience with a mid-
sized
> dog with a cruciate ligament tear. Private responses are requested
> so as not to clutter the list as this is OT.
>
> My ESS has been limping on a rear leg. I had her to the
chiropractor
> who can feel instability on the knee and thinks it is a partial
tear
> in the ligament. But with the heavy muscling of the dog she says
she
> cannot be sure it is not torn. There was also a lot of adjusting
> needed in the hips and sacrum areas
>
> She is on Ligaplax and Traumeel, restricted activity etc. I will
> take her back to the chiropractor 1/9/08. She is not in terrible
> pain and I have to stop her from going up and down the stairs.
>
> My quandry is surgery or no surgery. She is raw fed and while she
> had puppy vacs I do not routinely vaccinate anymore. If it can be
> avoided, I would prefer no surgery, but will do it if that is what
is
> best.
>
> Vet sites of course tell you without surgery it will never be right
> and there will be dire consequenses. My chiropractor (who is also
a
> vet) says she has had luck with partial tears healing with out
> surgery, but she wants me to know that surgery is an option.
>
> So, has anyone had a dog with a cruciate ligament injury heal well
> without surgery? Anyone had a bad result going without surgery?
>
> Kathy Rheintgen
>


Messages in this topic (3)
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9. Re: new to raw ... my picky eater
Posted by: "paul holt" azpholt@yahoo.com azpholt
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:17 pm ((PST))

I also have a 40 lb 11month old female shepard/chow mix. Before switching to raw, we tried 3-4 different "high quality" dry dog foods, I boiled eggs for her and gave her little treats of some cooked meats, she turned her nose up at every other thing, every other day, making me worry sick that something was wrong with her. Just prior to switching to raw, we brought another dog into our household, and now, with two dogs, both are happy to show mommy how much they like their food chow(rmb, etc) I do find that Santana, the chow mix, sometimes has a hard time figuring out how to get at the food from her bowl or off the doggie "placemat"(sheet) so, I'll hand it to her and she takes off. Best wishes, Kim

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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10a. Re: runny stools
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:17 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Patricia Cone
<tapenoc4mufflers@...> wrote:
>
> I do not follow a true regiment of 80/10/10. Sometimes they
> get no bone for several days, when stool turns white.

Are you saying the stools are white "out of the chute" or they turn
white a day or two later? If turning white a day or two later, its
no big deal. Don't worry about it. That is pretty common.

> I usually mix a variety together.

Mixing a variety together is not a big deal to dogs. They don't
care. They don't need meals like humans. I suggest for now, you
feed one item a day. That way it will help you determine exactly
what is causing the problem. As long as everything is mixed up, you
have no clue.

I also wouldn't feed ground beef or pork unless you get some at
prices too good to turn down. My dogs get ground deer meat some but
thats about all the ground they get.

> I do feel I may have been feeding too much organ, so will
> cut back.

Just a little glob every week or so is plenty. I would just hand
them a little glob with a meal every so often.

> Too much pork seemed to cause really loose stoolsl, so I add
> just a little to meal.

I suggest you feed a pork roast (not ground) as a meal and see what
happens. You might be surprised.

> My main reason for switching was for their good health. Rocky
> has a constant ear problem, it has been treated with
> antibiotics twice. I hoped raw feeding would clear this up,
> but not to date.

I seriously doubt raw feeding will clear it up BUT if you get it
cleared up completely, I think a raw diet will help it not come back.

> Also he seems to be hunched over a little more than usual, like
> he has a tummy ache.

"Seems to be" tells me you aren't sure. If he has a tummy ache,
there are other ways to tell.

> Is a trip to the vet a must or can I try a remedy you
> may suggest.

Feed him some boney stuff until his stools get firm and try my
suggestions. I think his tummy stuff will clear up. You MIGHT want
to fast him for a day. I'm not convinced it does any good, but it
certainly won't hurt him.

Good luck and keep us posted on progress. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (9)
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11a. Pork?
Posted by: "joan" joanlante@yahoo.ca joanlante
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:36 pm ((PST))

+++Mod note: pls sign messages, otherwise they will be deleted and not make it through moderation. +++++++++++++

Hi...I'm new actually only been a week that one of my dogs is on
RAW...now I know it's ok for turkey and chicken necks..chicken
wings.....beef cubes...hamberger patties ..veggies...eggs with shell a
bit of yogurt.etc etc..but I'm confused about pork as I wanted to give
spareribs...is this a no no and why???

Messages in this topic (18)
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11b. Re: Pork?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:48 pm ((PST))

> I know it's ok for turkey and chicken necks..chicken wings

Well, depending on the size of your dogs necks and wings can be iffy.
They are just about the right size for an adventurous dog to try and
swallow it whole, and that isn't a good thing. They also don't have
much to offer in the meat department, so you shouldn't be feeding
mostly these items.

> beef cubes...hamberger patties

You want your dog to actually rip and tear into their food to get not
only a good workout but also to keep their mouth clean. Cubed and
ground foods don't do that, and again, adventurous dogs can easily try
to inhale these things.

>veggies

Nope, no veggies needed. Dogs are carnivores and don't have any
requirement for vegetation.

> eggs with shell

Yes, whole eggs are not only nutritious but also fun for many dogs.

> a bit of yogurt

Just like the veggies, there is no need for yogurt. The foodstuffs
appropriate for the species are meat bones and organs, the stuff you
would find in a prey animal. Nothing more is needed.

> but I'm confused about pork as I wanted to give spareribs...is this a
> no no and why???

Ah, pork is a yes yes in my book. It's a good cheap red meat. A whole
slab of ribs is good, as is a pork shoulder roast and any other large
part you can get. No reason to fear pork!

Andrea

Messages in this topic (18)
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11c. Re: Pork?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:06 pm ((PST))

Hi, Joan!
Umm, its NOT OK to feed veggies and yogurt. This is not part of
a species appropriate whole prey diet.

And, feeding necks of any kind and wings really depends on the size of your
dog, and shouldn't make up the main part of any dog's diet.

Also, while beef cubes and ground beef may be temptingly cheap at times -
they too, shouldn't be fed in preference to large whole critter parts in a
variety of protein sources.

Similar to feeding Doom Nuggets (tm Carrie), just because a dog can live on
them, doesn't mean that they are optimal nourishment for our dogs. They are
just a small part of the whole raw whole prey picture.

As for pork, this is a great protein! Spareribs, depending on your dog, his
size and crunching capacity, may be alright. But, they are only one small
park of a pig, and are not the meatiest part!
http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/meatcharts_photos/pork.pdf

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey


On Dec 20, 2007 3:30 PM, joan <joanlante@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> +++Mod note: pls sign messages, otherwise they will be deleted and not
> make it through moderation. +++++++++++++
>
> Hi...I'm new actually only been a week that one of my dogs is on
> RAW...now I know it's ok for turkey and chicken necks..chicken
> wings.....beef cubes...hamburger patties ..veggies...eggs with shell a
> bit of yogurt.etc etc..but I'm confused about pork as I wanted to give
> spareribs...is this a no no and why???
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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12a. Introducing Myself!
Posted by: "Amy T" amypatriciatracy@gmail.com rosiesmomlovesrosie
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:37 pm ((PST))

Hi Everyone,
I sent out a post yesterday on my "picky eater," but I did not
introduce myself. I am Amy, and my pooch's name is Rosie. She's a 1
year-old chow /shepherd mix, about 40 lbs ... and an absolute doll,
though very much an "inner circle girl." We switched to Solid Gold Wolf
Cub from Nutro after the recalls here in the U.S., and then to raw
about three weeks ago. We live in the city of Chicago, and frequent the
dog beach here year round. Mmmm... that's about it. Rosie is doing very
well on the diet. She has a stomach of steel, so far, and we've taken
advantage of some of the ethnic grocery stores and purchased a variety
of meats and organs. As a vegetarian, I find the chicken feet the
creepiest of all! BTW, we found this link through Dogster.com!
Amy

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. cat is joining us
Posted by: "donna" heartathome@att.net jubileeberry
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:05 pm ((PST))

hello i am donna from alabama.. i have a 6 week old neapolitan
mastiff that i just got and started on chicken..she is quite enjoying
her meals, I have a 2 year old cat who is determined to share the
raw goodies and sits and watches the puppy eating and awaits her time
to pounce and steal her bone.. so i guess she is telling me she
wants a raw diet :)
to update...for a week i have been giving chicken legs... she is
doing great. I have put her in a crate to eat so I know where she is
at while eating and when done as she is not of course house trained
yet ...

--
Namaste,
donna
)O(
Uppity Women Unite


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13a. For liver...try searing....
Posted by: "Erin Hartiens-Santiago" erinhart75@yahoo.com erinhart75
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:06 pm ((PST))

My two of my four dogs refuse liver and kidney. I think something
with the texture is offensive to them. I tried mixing with egg...they
just licked the egg off. Mixing with other meats....they ate around
it. Even my cat was offended by the kidney (it smells pretty bad!). I
finally tried searing lightly (just enough to brown outside - about
15-20 seconds in a hot pan with a touch of oil) and they REALLY loved
it. Maybe it's psychological....They've trained me to give them
gourmet liver treats! haha

I also only feed the organ meats once a week (since it takes a little
more time to "cook" the meat) - plus they get such a small percentage
of that in their total diet, I can give them a bigger portion all at
once.

Good luck -
Cheers!
Erin Santiago and crew
(Sissy, Jake, Murray, Ollie and Maya)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> >There is less and less interest in liver lately
>
> Hi. I think that force feeding is not something Il ike to do to my
dog.I rather like my dog eats it with open paws.did you try many
tricks to feed it??such as....
>
> 1>Quick sear
> 2>serve freeze
> 3> Mix with raw Egg
> 4>Mix with Tripe
> 5> Flavoring the liver with garlic or fish oil
>
> etc??
>
>


Messages in this topic (3)
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