Feed Pets Raw Food: Jul 28, 2007

Saturday, July 28, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11855

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Rabbit makes dark brown poo?
From: Yasuko herron
1b. Re: Rabbit makes dark brown poo?
From: cmhausrath

2.1. Re: ground meat
From: Cheryl
2.2. Re: ground meat
From: Giselle

3.1. Re: Constipation
From: Cheryl
3.2. Re: Constipation
From: Cheryl
3.3. Re: Constipation
From: Giselle

4a. Re: Windfall
From: Cheryl
4b. Re: Windfall
From: cmhausrath

5a. Re: older dog
From: Cheryl
5b. Re: older dog
From: kaleygraham

6a. Upset Stomach
From: michelleraia1
6b. Re: Upset Stomach
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

7a. Re: question for Bill Carnes/ how meaty are chicken backs?
From: Stephanie Cassin

8a. Re: Switching new foster to raw
From: temy1102

9a. I have a problem.
From: Margaret
9b. Re: I have a problem.
From: tottime47

10a. Newbie to puppy rawfeeding question
From: a.flynn@optusnet.com.au
10b. Re: Newbie to puppy rawfeeding question
From: pet.wellness

11a. losing hair
From: scarebetty
11b. Re: losing hair
From: Giselle
11c. Re: losing hair
From: pet.wellness

12a. Re: fresh meat
From: costrowski75

13. Swordfish and Haddock
From: chele519

14. Not eating raw...
From: Jamie Dolan

Messages
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1a. Re: Rabbit makes dark brown poo?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:26 pm ((PDT))

>This is about exactly how Griffin feels about rabbit: he eats it all, but he doesn't much jump >for joy.

Hi,Sandy. I hear/read a lot that dog not thrilled about Ostrich/Emu/Rabbit.Well,some may love these but not all dogs do. So,I was wondering how she does with rabbit but, she eats but not thrilled.. Still better because she is not refusing what I gave to her.

She deserve chicken feet crunchy desert:-P

Is Rabbit still in Griffin's menu? I mean, seeing her not thrilled,my husband mentioned to me maybe rabbit should be pulled from menu since she is not thrilled. Waht do you think?

> I've found that only poultry -- only eating birds -- makes Griff have light poop.

Really? Palette does light brown poo after pork too. Brown is lamb,Beef,Buffalo. Others except rabbit seemed to be light one. It depends on dog too then?

> You haven't been developing an obsession about poop-watching while I've been >underground this summer, have you??

Well, it is so wiered. When she goes poo,I am kind of looking ground where she try to poo on till it drops:-P Neighbor may think I am wierdo.

But really,poo is good indication for me for now because I am still newbie category so,I tend to pay attention to poo. As long as not uncontrollerable,I be relaxed and just add bone more and fix the problems.

I think I am more relaxed than before though. I am not scared feeding rib bones or other bones.I now know that she can handle bones than I think she would. Really cannot underestimate the little jaw power.

-->sandy & griffin, not far away & wondering where you're getting affordable bison ...

Well,I tried to get buffalo from pepspoultry in PA,but I have problems with them.He is not responding to me 1 month now.He has pending order with buffalo like buffalo heart from me but since i cannot rely on it,I bought almost same thing that I ordered him from WI.

I recommend this place for all interested in buaffalo meat.Their meat is grassfed and no antibiotic or hormon given and they carry poultry the same condition and they have ostrich as well if you like.

I got short rib for me and dog and it had 2 inch thick meaty meat on it and while it is a RIB it was good meal for palette. It is not back rib they carry so,it is not loong slab of rib though.

I also got rib eye buffalo steak from them too just to cook for wed anniversary.It was soo juicy,tender and I loved it.

I got smoked Buffalo ham to treat ourselves too and it was so good too.

They carry Heart,liver,kidney,and some other organ too.You can chose fresh or frozen.

As for price,maybe bit pricy side but among grassfed meat suppliers,probably I think affordable category. And their shipping fee is awesome. Under 15lb 20 dollars over night delivery and above 15lb,15 dollars over night delivery..To VA, they use DHL.

The price for meat itself is not 1 dollar a pound base but I love their meat and shipping fee so,I tend to order them.

If you are interested,look up www.northbisonstar.com

Sorrounding states of WI has 15 dollars by ground I thought.

yassy

---------------------------------
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Rabbit makes dark brown poo?
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:36 pm ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:

> Is Rabbit still in Griffin's menu? I mean, seeing her not
thrilled,my husband mentioned to me maybe rabbit should be pulled
from menu since she is not thrilled. Waht do you think?

It doesn't play a starring role, but every now & again I'll either
pick some up at the asian market or order some from Hare Today. When
it's on the menu, Griff eats it, but it's hardly worth the effort it
costs. Still, I like to offer whatever variety I can, and doggonit,
he likes to CHASE rabbits -- seems to me he ought to like EATING
them. So I continue to kinda romanticize rabbit, and keep it
somewhere in the rotation. As Chris O would probably point out, it's
pretty clearly about what I want, not what he wants, but hey, it
doesn't hurt him. =)

> Well, it is so wiered. When she goes poo,I am kind of looking
ground where she try to poo on till it drops:-P Neighbor may think I
am wierdo.

LOL -- okay, see, I'm a poop-watcher cuz I have to be. I've gotta
pick the stuff up or risk getting fined by my apartment complex or by
the city, so I can't really help knowing what it looks like.

If you're a wierdo for it, I'm sure a lot of us are.

> But really,poo is good indication for me for now because I am
still newbie category so,I tend to pay attention to poo. As long as
not uncontrollerable,I be relaxed and just add bone more and fix the
problems.

Well, just bear in mind that as long as Palette's poo isn't
uncontrollable, there *aren't* any problems to fix. Variety in =
variety out ... expecting to see the same kind of stools all the time
is a holdover from feeding ki**le.

> I recommend this place for all interested in buaffalo meat....
> If you are interested,look up www.northbisonstar.com

I think you mean www.northstarbison.com instead? Ouch, definitely
out of my price range though -- Griffin wishes he could come live
with you. Bison is definitely on his top-3 favorite foods of all
time list. If ever I start makin' the big bucks, I might have to
figure out how to buy a half bison or something ...

-- sandy & griffin, envious

Messages in this topic (4)
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2.1. Re: ground meat
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:27 pm ((PDT))

I don't have a meat grinder. Can you grind meat in a food processor? if
so.. what brand.... also, I can't afford a higher end grinder at the
moment, will it still be okay if I buy some ground chicken to go with
the chicken parts? I have to purchase a shaver to groom my dog so I have
some other thing already lined up to purchase and a grinder is not on
the list, yet. Cheryl

Yasuko herron wrote:
>> 2) ground meat has more bacteria than whole or meats cut into large portions
>>
>
> Hi, this is just a thought but, I remember you told me that you give slippery elm with ground meat namely ground chicken.I too do not like pre-made thing because I cannot figure out waht it is in the stuff and no control over the ingredients.
>
> That being said, If you buy/use, say, chicken breast and mince it with food processor to make meatball to mix in Slippery elm,then, it is better than
>

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Messages in this topic (37)
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2.2. Re: ground meat
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:18 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Cheryl!
Me, again!
Didn't mean to confuse you. You DON'T need to grind your dogs meat OR
bones. Big hunks of meat with bone is what you need!

Yassy was, I believe, mentioning another post where we were discussing
ways to get doses of Slippery Elm Bark Powder into a dog who has
diarrhea, and whom you may be fasting. I suggested mixing it with a
bit of ground chicken. You could always just mince up some chicken you
already had on hand. Or borrow Yassy's food processor. ; )

Ground is not an absolute no-no, but I don't recommend it to newbies,
as their dogs NEED the activity and dental hygiene that
chewing/crunching big parts provide. After you've gotten over your
"newbieness", you can do as some of us do; if ground is on sale, and
it would be criminal to pass it up, you buy it. Then you add it to a
bony part you wouldn't feed without more meat.

We DO try to make our explanations simpler and more clear cut for
newbies, to lessen confusion.

Go forth, buy whole chickens at the grocery store. Cut each one into 4
pieces. Feed one quarter at each meal. If your dog doesn't finish it,
take it up when he stops eating, and put it in the fridge until the
next mealtime. If he doesn't eat then, don't panic. ; ) He's either
full from the previous meal, or tired, or both. : )

Keep offering meals of chicken for a week or more. Toss in the
gizzards and hearts that come with the whole chicken when you feed, or
save them for special treats. Add in a bit (pinky fingernail sized )
of the liver to a meal once a day.

Did I forget anything? Yeah, more than one thing; read the label on
the chicken to be sure it isn't enhanced or injected with salt or
flavored/seasoned solutions. This can cause *some* dogs to itch or vomit.

Oh, and you dog may get loose stools, from the change to raw, until
his digestive system acclimates. Just let us know, we'll talk you
through it. : )

Once the kibble/pre-made processes through your dog's system, he will
poop less often, and it will be much smaller and firmer than on
kibble. This is normal, too.

He will most probably drink less water, too. Meat has a pretty good
content of liquid, so he'll be getting more water when he eats than
with kibble. Kibble is so very dry, with so many additives, that dog's
that eat it are unnaturally thirsty, and drink lots more, to be able
to digest it.

Ask lots of Qs, Cheryl! We'll answer them! Or tell us your worries or
problems, we'll help you figure out whats wrong.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I don't have a meat grinder. Can you grind meat in a food processor? if
> so.. what brand.... also, I can't afford a higher end grinder at the
> moment, will it still be okay if I buy some ground chicken to go with
> the chicken parts? I have to purchase a shaver to groom my dog so I
have
> some other thing already lined up to purchase and a grinder is not on
> the list, yet. Cheryl
>
>
>
>
> Yasuko herron wrote:
> >> 2) ground meat has more bacteria than whole or meats cut into
large portions
> >>
> >
> > Hi, this is just a thought but, I remember you told me that you
give slippery elm with ground meat namely ground chicken.I too do not
like pre-made thing because I cannot figure out waht it is in the
stuff and no control over the ingredients.
> >
> > That being said, If you buy/use, say, chicken breast and mince
it with food processor to make meatball to mix in Slippery elm,then,
it is better than

Messages in this topic (37)
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3.1. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:27 pm ((PDT))

you all are good. you know what baffles me is how come I believe what
you are saying. I don't even know you but it makes sense. If this makes
sense to me, why don't more pet owners give it look instead of all the
hoopla about bacteria?? why don't they even consider more of what the
process is to feeding raw? I think they actually have to see a raw fed
dog next to a kibble dog to show, hey.. it works and no Trojan does not
want to eat you either. :) Cheryl

Morledzep@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/27/2007 10:33:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> parkbunny@verizon.net writes:
>
> apples,
> carrots butternut squash, Ground flaxseed, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Dried
> kelp, Apple cider vinegar, Parsley, honey,olive oil, blueberries, alfalfa
> sprouts, persimmons, Rosemary, sage and clove. if it didn't have
> the veggies would it meet your raw standards?
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (37)
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3.2. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:29 pm ((PDT))

Giselle,
Your response took a lot of time and effort and now I see. You explained
why the vegetables aren't needed. now I see. You explained I don't know
the meat to bone ratio. that's awesome. You helped me a lot. This
response I will have to print out. thank you. I did not know there was
an order as to how to proceed either. I was just seeing meat. Now, I
took up the piece of beef bone I had there and took out a chicken
breast, until I get to the store, If I go out at all today. but thank
you again. Great answer.
Cheryl

Giselle wrote:
> Hi, Cheryl!
> Pre made anything is too expensive and always takes away
> your control of exactly what to feed and in what proportion.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (37)
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3.3. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Cheryl!
YVW, and thanks for the compliment. I can be long winded
and rambly, but with a bit of nudging, I can construct complete
sentences and paragraphs! ; )

Its why I am on this list. It helps me to help others. Everyone who
comes to this list wants to learn more, sometimes they don't know just
how much more they need to learn. : )

I don't push raw in F2F conversations, but if it comes up, I mention
thats what I feed. Those who are ready to consider feeding their dogs
the natural "outside the box" way, will come back to me and ask more Qs.

Sometimes its hard not to give TMI to a newbie asking one specific Q.
So, we try to keep it short and concise, and expand on the info we
give when more Qs are asked. Its not that we are being difficult, or
withholding info, we are just trying not to overwhelm with TMI!
TC and keep us posted on your progress!

Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Giselle,
> Your response took a lot of time and effort and now I see. You
explained
> why the vegetables aren't needed. now I see. You explained I don't
know
> the meat to bone ratio. that's awesome. You helped me a lot. This
> response I will have to print out. thank you. I did not know there was
> an order as to how to proceed either. I was just seeing meat. Now, I
> took up the piece of beef bone I had there and took out a chicken
> breast, until I get to the store, If I go out at all today. but thank
> you again. Great answer.
> Cheryl
>
>
>
>
> Giselle wrote:
> > Hi, Cheryl!
> > Pre made anything is too expensive and always takes away
> > your control of exactly what to feed and in what proportion.

Messages in this topic (37)
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4a. Re: Windfall
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:30 pm ((PDT))

now that's gross. seeing something eaten live. wow...
Cheryl

chele519 wrote:
> she was eating the belly and the little pigs feet were hanging out of
> the side of her mouth and twitching with every bite.
> Michele
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "linoleum5017" <linoleum5017@...>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: Windfall
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))

Cheryl <parkbunny@...> wrote:

> now that's gross. seeing something eaten live. wow...

Erg, no, unless I'm the one who's misunderstanding here -- I believe
the piglets had been crushed by the sow, which was why they were dead,
which was why they were sold (or given?) to a raw feeder. So any
appearance that they were twitching around was just because the dog was
moving them while eating.

Occasionally people have come on the list and intimated that they'd
like to feed live -- those people, or at least that idea, is always
quickly shut down. Cruelty is not part of raw feeding.

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. Re: older dog
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:06 pm ((PDT))

Kathy,
You were right on on your answer. I now understand. I was blind but now
I see. I guess I'm suppose to understand this and I don't believe you
all are trying to sell me a bag of goods. You at least have explanations
as to the why of it all.
Cheryl

katkellm wrote:
> so why all the hoopla about vegetables being in kibble?
>
> Hi Cheryl,
> If you are asking about why pet food makers make a big deal about the
> fact that their pet food has veggies in it and claim that it is
> healthy, it is because they are trying to advertise and sell a
> product. Their claims are based on sales not nutrition. People see
>
>

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Messages in this topic (23)
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5b. Re: older dog
Posted by: "kaleygraham" lisaagraham@gmail.com kaleygraham
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:06 pm ((PDT))

>I am going to admit that I feed a small amount of fruit/veggies to my dog with his raw meat
>diet. I feed it for the antioxidants. I don't think wolves in the wild were dealing with so
>many free radicals.

Ok guys – here's my veggie comment: considering all of the time that some people ponder
over how much veggie or fruit to add to a carnivore's diet, I wonder how much time a rancher
ponders over how much meat to feed his cow?

Just a thought...

Lisa, Sophie and Riley

Messages in this topic (23)
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6a. Upset Stomach
Posted by: "michelleraia1" michelleraia1@yahoo.com michelleraia1
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:16 pm ((PDT))

My dog vomitted a couple of times this morning. Is there anything I
can give him to help settle his stomach...He seems fine otherwise..
thanks
michelle

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Upset Stomach
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:41 pm ((PDT))

Be more specific, did he eat it up again after the vomit? Is his activity level the same or less? What have you been feeding? How long on the raw diet, and is it prey model type? What kind of dog, how old, any other health issues in the mix?
Yes, I need to know, curiosity is a big thing with me? I was a cat in a different life, give us more info and we can give you some info back:)
Jeni

----- Original Message ----
From: michelleraia1 <michelleraia1@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 12:31:51 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Upset Stomach

My dog vomitted a couple of times this morning. Is there anything I
can give him to help settle his stomach...He seems fine otherwise..
thanks
michelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: question for Bill Carnes/ how meaty are chicken backs?
Posted by: "Stephanie Cassin" mamacass@iprimus.com.au quiltingtuppy
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:42 pm ((PDT))

Thank you Bill! Now I'll get started and let you know how I go it's
good to have a menu plan and the extra bone makes sense.

Regards
Stephanie in Australia

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Switching new foster to raw
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

congrats on your new foster! i am no expert, but i just recently
switched 2 of my own foster puppies to raw, and i did exactly what you
are saying. fasted for the day they arrived, and the next day, they
joined the rest of the gang in the fun of raw feeding. since it's
recommended when switching any dog to raw to go cold turkey, i figured
it still applied to fosters and rescues.

as far as contagious diseases go, i was concerned about that also, but
the pups looked healthy, they were cleared by the vet as far as
general health, and i KNOW my own dogs are quite healthy and sturdy,
so i risked it. no one's sick yet, and it's been a month.

hope that helps!

tammy & grover

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. I have a problem.
Posted by: "Margaret" margaret.abate@ntlworld.com filardifilardi
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:23 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone,

I have one big problem with Kiera, my GSD, she has just stopped eating
her bones, will not touch them even her favourite, chicken, so what can
i do?? I have thought about pain in her mouth, nothing wrong in there, i
cant make her eat them, i only wish i could. This started just after i
came home from holiday, about 3/4 weeks ago.

Any idea's from anyone would be great.

Margaret.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: I have a problem.
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi Margaret,

How old is she? How long have you been raw feeding?

What is she eating now?

Big meat where she has to rip & tear or small cut up pieces?

Have you noticed if she is eating most things on one side of
her mouth?

How are her stools?

Anything happen while you were on holiday? Choking on a bone?

More information is good.............

All that said, Charkee had an infected tooth and it wasn't found till
he had a tooth cleaning done..Looked perfect from the outside....
Only clue......he'd only chew on one side.....

Carol, Charkee & Moli

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Margaret" <margaret.abate@...>
wrote:

she has just stopped eating
her bones, will not touch them even her favourite, chicken

This started just after i came home from holiday, about 3/4 weeks ago.

Margaret.

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Newbie to puppy rawfeeding question
Posted by: "a.flynn@optusnet.com.au" a.flynn@optusnet.com.au flynn_nn
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:28 pm ((PDT))

Hello,

I have been feeding my 12 week old mini fox terrier raw now for a few weeks since we got him. I am needing some reassurance that he is eating enough.

His ribs feel like they have enough covering, and he is very active and playful, bright eyed and shiny sleek coat. He is growing in height and length but has a slimmer look than I am used to for a pup. He has a definate waist (more like what i am used to in a grown dog) and I am more used to the roly poly puppy look. Is the typical roly poly look just because pups fed kibble are actually overweight? I am guessing so but need some reassurance that I am doing the right thing. Do raw fed pups look more like smaller adults because that is what he looks like?

He weighs about 5lbs and I am feeding him 4 times a day. So far he is getting chicken wings, lamb chop with a long bone in for him to chew, turkey necks, which he pulls the meat off, and beef pieces to make up more meat because of the bony wings, and some chicken liver and kidney. I have never had a small breed before, nor ever fed a pup raw. He seems to eat a lot some days and the next morning sometimes will not eat... he will go out and eat grass and vomit it up with no food coming up (because he hasn't eaten). Then by mid morning or lunchtime he will eat a meal as normal. Does this mean I have given him too much the evening before (sometimes he seems very much to be looking for more, so i give him more at those times)...is this sort of pattern normal? I suspect so but would like some feedback please.

Also he is due for worming and vaccinating. I ahve in the past always had this done, but since having a tumor removed from my older dogs neck last year, I am very sceptical about vaccines. I am wanting to do more reading on these topics and i can't find the links that i saw someone post on these topics. So if someone could kindly post those again it would be much appreciated.

Ann.

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: Newbie to puppy rawfeeding question
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:17 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, a.flynn@... wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Also he is due for worming and vaccinating. I am wanting to do more
reading on these topics and i can't find the links that i saw someone
post on these topics. So if someone could kindly post those again it
would be much appreciated.
>
> Ann.

***

Here's a place to start

TruthAboutVaccines · TheTruthAboutVaccines

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/TruthAboutVaccines/

Pamela Picard
www.pet-wellness-update.com

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. losing hair
Posted by: "scarebetty" scarebetty@yahoo.com scarebetty
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:57 pm ((PDT))

I switched my female to raw when she was about a month into her
pregnancy. She made the change with very little problem. Her pups
are now 5 weeks old, so she has been on raw for about 4 months now.
She is shedding a lot, not just individual hairs, but clumps in a
couple of spots. Along with the shedding she also has a lot of
dander. Where the hair is coming out in clumps, there is a scaling
that I would call exema. I feed her a lot of chicken, some pork, very
little beef. I'm trying to figure out if the hair loss is due to her
hormone changes-but dont think that the dermatitis could be due to
that. Just not sure as to what is causing it. Maybe a chicken
allergy? She doesnt scratch much. Maybe someone can help me. She
had a beautiful coat before I switched her-not saying that the raw
isnt good for her, I know it is, just wonder what to do.
Betty

Messages in this topic (4)
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11b. Re: losing hair
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:30 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Betty!
Not sure if this relates to dogs or not, but when a woman is
pregnant, hair loss is reduced dramatically, as new hairs do not start
to grow during the pregnancy. Then, afterwards, there is an increased
rate of hair loss.
This link explains it better;

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyhealth/hairloss.html

I don't see why it couldn't happen to dogs in a similar way.
Her hormones may still be balancing out to prepregnancy levels,
especially if she is still nursing the pups.

Why don't you bathe her with a gentle shampoo, massaging her skin, and
rinsing extremely well. Dry her coat by rubbing gently all over with
dry towels, if you haven't got a canine coat dryer. People dryers are
too hot. This will help remove all the loose hair and dander, as well
as any greasy exudate that has accumulated. Brush her with a soft pin
brush daily to stimulate the skin and distribute skin oils through the
coat.

About three days after the bath, her skin should return to what is
normal for her right now. Then, you will be able have a better idea of
how her skin and coat are faring from then on.

You could add more variety to her diet; especially organs like liver,
kidney, sweet breads, etc. Turkey is easily obtained, and maybe you
could find some venison or other red meats. Beef or veal heart is a
great lean red meat to feed, and not expensive. Does she get enough
edible bone?

A good quality Salmon or Fish Body Oil couldn't hurt, either. Make
sure it doesn't have any plant based oils or additives.

TC and let us know how she does!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

I switched my female to raw when she was about a month into her
> pregnancy. She made the change with very little problem. Her pups
> are now 5 weeks old, so she has been on raw for about 4 months now.
> She is shedding a lot, not just individual hairs, but clumps in a
> couple of spots. Along with the shedding she also has a lot of
> dander. Where the hair is coming out in clumps, there is a scaling
> that I would call eczema. I feed her a lot of chicken, some pork, very
> little beef. I'm trying to figure out if the hair loss is due to her
> hormone changes-but don't think that the dermatitis could be due to
> that. Just not sure as to what is causing it. Maybe a chicken
> allergy? She doesn't scratch much. Maybe someone can help me. She
> had a beautiful coat before I switched her - not saying that the raw
> isn't good for her, I know it is, just wonder what to do.
> Betty
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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11c. Re: losing hair
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:19 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Chapman" <aaronchpmn@...> wrote:
>
> so my dogs and i have been on the barf diet now for a couple of months
> and now im noticing that my pit bull is starting to lose his hair on
> his armpits(if u can call it that lol) and around one of his eyes he
> has also been doing a lot of scratching underneath his armpits
> also....is this a food allergy??? what is going on??????? thx in advance
>
> confused and worried
> Aaron
>
How much chicken does he eat? Has he been vaccinated recently?
Pamela

www.pet-wellness-update.com

Messages in this topic (4)
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12a. Re: fresh meat
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:58 pm ((PDT))

"v_rod_or" <v_rod_or@...> wrote:
>
> > do u need to freeze all meats before feeding?
>
> I've heard from several respected folks here that fish (at least some
> kinds) should be frozen first...think this has something to do with
> bones. Maybe someone can elaborate further?
*****
Has zipola to do with bones. It's recommended that fish, especially
wild fish, of unknown or uncertain provenence be frozen to kill
parasites. This is true for all wild meats--ineqivocally. If you are
unsure about the critter's circumstances, freeze first.

Freezing will kill parasites; it will not remove toxins, neither will
cooking. So if the fish may have come from polluted water--if the fish
is not one you would eat yourself--think again about feeding it to your
dog.

Bones are not generally affected by freezing.
Chris o

Messages in this topic (5)
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13. Swordfish and Haddock
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:37 pm ((PDT))

I've never fed fish to my dogs yet but got a few pieces of both of
these today. I don't eat fish myself so I don't know anything about
them. Are these ok to feed? I found an old post that said swordfish
had too much mercury but if it is only a rare occasion, is it ok? It's
not something I plan to buy but I got it free.
Michele

Messages in this topic (1)
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14. Not eating raw...
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:18 pm ((PDT))

HI,

I make up a barf type mix for my parents dogs that have ground beef,
chicken, ducks, chicken organs, organic eggs and salmon oil.

I have to do the barf type food for them, as my mom hates allowing
them to crunch up bones. Although once in a while I do give them some
whole chicken pieces.

There is no point is me making a further fuss about having them eat
normal RMB's because they will just get frustrated and go back to iams
kibble and canned mighty dog or whatever. But I need to figure out
what to do about this problem...

They have 4 dogs, 1 old Maltese, and 3 shih tzu's.

8 months ago when I started them on the barf mix, all 4 dogs ate the
mix just fine. They are fed twice a day.

After about a month, the maltese stoped wanted to eat my barf mix for
some reason, so she got switched back to some cheap canned food.

Now 1 of the shih tzu's (the youngest one about a year and a half)
often refuses to eat her barf mix.

I can't figure out why they won't eat it at all.

My parents are not willing to feed only once a day, and they are not
willing to allow the dogs to skip a meal if they don't want to eat the
barf mix. If they don't eat there barf, then they get canned or dry.

The latest dog that is not eating barf at times is a normal size shih
tzu, about 13 pounds. The maltese does not eat any barf any more
(however she ate most of a raw drum stick I gave her last week)

The 2 older shih tzu's are morbidly obese (around 25 pounds each,
without much muscle... My largest shih tzu is 19.5 pounds,but he is
very muscular, and can walk for many miles, 5+ a day, vs her large
dogs that can barely walk a half mile) The large older shih tzu's
always eat there barf, no problem.

My mom thinks they like vegetables, she cooked them some chicken with
vegetables last week and I guess they all ate it.

I really want them to keep eating raw, even if it is barf. I wonder
if it would be more appealing to them if I add in some kind of veggie
or something? I know there is nothing wrong with the barf mix,
because if I give it to my boys they will lick the plates. 2 of my
boys pretty much hate veggies, 1 will eat a couple veggies. I don't
know if perhaps my parents dogs do like veggies? Maybe I have to add
some more veggies to get them to eat it?

Any other ideas as to what I might be able to do to there food to make
it more appealing to my parents dogs? It also has lots of salmon oil
on it.

Thanks in advance

Jamie

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11854

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Poo less, pee more
From: Shannon Hully

2a. Re: Newbie with various questions
From: sarahfalkner

3. Switching new foster to raw
From: mutts_enough

4a. Lazy eater
From: Marisa
4b. Re: Lazy eater
From: costrowski75
4c. Re: Lazy eater
From: Giselle

5a. Re: older dog
From: mlodge
5b. Re: older dog
From: costrowski75
5c. Re: older dog
From: costrowski75
5d. Re: older dog
From: katkellm
5e. Re: older dog
From: ginny wilken
5f. Re: older dog
From: Sandee Lee

6a. Newbie with various questions/egg question/dividing whole carcass qu
From: sarahfalkner
6b. Newbie with various questions/egg question/dividing whole carcass qu
From: Giselle

7a. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: Mike Devlin

8a. Re: question for Bill Carnes/ how meaty are chicken backs?
From: carnesbill

9a. ADMIN/Re: In memory of Harley 10/26/97 thru 07/27/07
From: costrowski75

10a. Rabbit makes dark brown poo?
From: Yasuko herron
10b. Re: Rabbit makes dark brown poo?
From: cmhausrath

11.1. Re: Chicken feet
From: Yasuko herron

12.1. Re: ground meat
From: Yasuko herron

13a. Re: Refusing organs
From: Kari Carlisle

14a. Re: Maya & diarrhea...ate something unknown
From: Yasuko herron

15a. Re: fresh meat
From: v_rod_or
15b. Re: fresh meat
From: Sandee Lee

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Poo less, pee more
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:50 am ((PDT))

> Couldn't he be peeing more since his food has a much higher water
> content now? I would venture a guess that most non-raw dogs are
> dehydrated to some degree. They are designed to get most of their
> water from their food, and when they're on cooked food (kibble or
> canned), there's much less water in the food.
>
> Laurie

My GSD pee'd a LOT when he was kibble-fed and drank large quantities of
water. When I switched him over his water consumption became about 1/4
as much as he'd drunk before and his urinating went down drastically.
He used to pee for a minute at a time sometimes! He was actually on
meds to help his urinary incontinence brought on by "age", but I
stopped using it altogether when I switched him because he no longer
needed it. His system was no longer fighting to deal with the
unnatural amounts of water it was being forced to drink in order to
stay hydrated. If there is an increase in urinating I'd wonder why.

Shannon H.

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Newbie with various questions
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:51 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
> Other than my thumb rules as listed above, I've never worried about
> percentages and ratios. More meat than bone; more red meat than
> white; squidgy ick organs when I remember and certainly when I am
> feeding same to the dogs. Again, I imagine others will contribute
> here, and you probably should join RawCat.
> Chris O

Chris, thanks so much for your thoughtful answers, very helpful. And I did join RawCat.

Sarah

Messages in this topic (6)
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3. Switching new foster to raw
Posted by: "mutts_enough" mutts_enough@yahoo.com mutts_enough
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:52 am ((PDT))

Hi guys,

I'm picking up a foster dog today and will, of course!, be rawfeeding
him. This is my first foster since switching so I'm wondering what
the best way to switch would be. The dog is probably 18 months old
and is probably a chow mix so his ideal weight looks as though it
would settle at 45-50lbs ish.

My thinking would be to fast him until tomorrow morning, then go cold
turkey - literally as well as figuratively.

Should I have any concerns about my other two dogs picking up any
shelter-born diseases/viruses? This has happened to me before. My
aussie got a dose of kennel cough that went to pneumonia when I
introduced a foster. Yes, things weren't handled right by me back
then and my dogs' diet is better now, but I've still got that nervous
twitch thing going....

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

Barb

Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Lazy eater
Posted by: "Marisa" mrsdog_lover@yahoo.com mrsdog_lover
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:55 am ((PDT))

Hi,
my 1 year old corgi is such a lazy eater!!! I've been raw feeding
my 3 dogs (5 year old pinscher, 14 year old mongrel and 1 year old
corgi) for 3 months now, and the benefits of raw feeding are so many
and I'm so happy and satisfied , exept of how my corgi eats!!!
Initially, he took the change with enthusiasm, but later on he started
to leave his food for later on, keeping an eye on it from the other
dogs.
He stays layed down a little distance from it and looks at it with
indecision!! He often does eat it in the end,after having charged off
all evening, who dares to have a sniff at his food!! Sometimes I get
fed up, and after 1 hour, I put it straight back in the fridge until
the next morning.
Other times I pretend to give it to an other dog, calling it's name,
and he soon hurrys up to eat!! I sometimes think I've to do with a
stubborn child, or maybe he likes all this fuss and attention!!
Where am I doing things wrong???
p.s. He used to do the same with kibble, canned food and our household
food. Maybe he gets fed up like I do in waiting for him to eat. Once I
left him 3 days without food because he left it on the floor all
evening!!
HELP!!!
Marisa (italy)

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Lazy eater
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:56 am ((PDT))

"Marisa" <mrsdog_lover@...> wrote:
I sometimes think I've to do with a
> stubborn child, or maybe he likes all this fuss and attention!!
> Where am I doing things wrong???
*****
Yes, I think he does enjoy the attention that fussing brings him. I
think he's taught you well and when you don't play his game--or play
it right--he goes off.

I recommend you regain ownership of the controls. Feed him food that
you know is both nutritious and palatable, put it down and then leave
him alone for whatever time you decide (altough I think a hour is too
long; maybe 20 minutes?) and if he's not actively eating at the
point, collect up the food AND THAT IS THAT. No second chances. The
kitchen, you must point out to him, is closed, and he gets no food
til the next regularly scheduled meal.

You can refeed that food or you can feed a different meal--as you
choose--but the same rules apply. If after X minutes the little fool
is still toying with his meal, pick it up, but it away, close the
kitchen.

He will not starve. If you offer meals you know from experience are
palatable, he will eat when he's hungry enough. I myself would not
use marginally-enjoyable food at this point but certainly the "eat
this or nothing" technique can also be used when trying to feed icky
food like liver. For now, when he does eat--and he will--it should
be food that's worth the wait. IMO.

I recommend you make the eating environment as stressfree as
possible, which means no resource guarding on his part or from the
others, no looming or skulking or pleading or imploring from the
humans. Just a matter of fact "come and get it". Time to de-
escalate, no?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: Lazy eater
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:01 am ((PDT))

Hi, Marisa!
I'd 'do' the tough love plan with this little guy!
Feed everyone - I'm assuming that they each have their own space to
eat in?
If he doesn't eat in the time it takes for each dog to finish their
meals or in 15 minutes, take it up and put it in the fridge.

Don't coax, or make a fuss in any way. Just quietly gather it up and
put in the fridge.

Clean up everyone's places - you don't allow them to visit each
other's eating spots after a meal, do you?

No treats, no snacks, no sharing until the next meal!

At the next meal time, you can offer the same piece that was refused
the last meal or offer the same thing everyone else is getting.

Repeat this process, he will eventually decide that he'd better get on
the gravy train!

One of the things to consider; is that you are feeding him more than
he needs at a meal, or too often. Just because the other dogs are
eating, doesn't mean he has to be or should be, hungry too.

You could cut back on the portion size, or leave it the way it is if
he will eat part and leave part. If he refuses a meal, don't assume
he's being fussy - consider that he's a "self-regulator" and is only
eating what his body needs.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi,
> my 1 year old corgi is such a lazy eater!!! I've been raw feeding
> my 3 dogs (5 year old pinscher, 14 year old mongrel and 1 year old
> corgi) for 3 months now, and the benefits of raw feeding are so many
> and I'm so happy and satisfied , except of how my corgi eats!!!
<snip>Once I
> left him 3 days without food because he left it on the floor all
> evening!!
> HELP!!!
> Marisa (Italy)
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: older dog
Posted by: "mlodge" mmlodge@att.net mlodge
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:56 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cheryl <parkbunny@...> wrote:
>
> I see so many people saying young old I thought it had something to do
> with it. so why all the hoopla about vegetables being in kibble?
> Name: Cheryl
>
>
> Sandee Lee wrote:
> > Why would you want to feed vegetables to a carnivore? It's just as
> > convenient to feed a chicken quarter!
> >
> >
...
>

At the known, certain risk of ridcule from some here, I am going to
admit that I feed a small amount of fruit/veggies to my dog with his
raw meat diet. I feed it for the antioxidants. I don't think wolves
in the wild were dealing with so many free radicals.

Now bash away, but I know there are plenty of you here who do the same
thing, you all talk via email because we are all afraid to say we feed
some veggies!!

I LIKE feeding some fruit/veggies.

Melissa

Messages in this topic (21)
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5b. Re: older dog
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:22 am ((PDT))

"katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
it is because they are trying to advertise and sell a
> product. Their claims are based on sales not nutrition. People see
> their pets as their kids, and the pet food industry capitalizes on the
> notion
*****
Let us not forget that a product chock a block full of veggies is also
full of profit. What's more expensive--beef or bokchoy? Chicken or
carrots? Is ANYTHING cheaper than zucchini?

The vegetables are there so meat doesn't have to be. As with other
such products, because we CAN feed our dogs this stuff doesn't mean we
SHOULD.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (21)
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5c. Re: older dog
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:06 am ((PDT))

"mlodge" <mmlodge@...> wrote:
> I LIKE feeding some fruit/veggies.
*****
Darlin, whatever gets you through the night.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (21)
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5d. Re: older dog
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:06 am ((PDT))

> Now bash away, but I know there are plenty of you here who do the same
> thing, you all talk via email because we are all afraid to say we feed
> some veggies!!
> I LIKE feeding some fruit/veggies.

Hi Mellisa,
In my experience, the only time you feel that you are being bashed is
if the alleged bashing bothers you, and the said bashing only bothers
you because you don't feel "positive" deep down inside about your
choice. No one can make me feel bad about a choice if the deep small
voice inside of me convicts me that i'm on the right path. Most
importantly, if y'all feel like you are being mistreated, you could
start your own list and teach your methods. In the list summation it
speaks of being like minded. No one means that we have to be list
robots. We can disagree on training methods or where we feed or
what kind of shampoo to use, but its not list etiquette to disagree
with the premise of the list but i, for one, will like you whether you
fed veggies or not. KathyM

Messages in this topic (21)
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5e. Re: older dog
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:19 am ((PDT))

On Jul 28, 2007, at 8:23 AM, katkellm wrote:

>> Now bash away, but I know there are plenty of you here who do the
>> same
>> thing, you all talk via email because we are all afraid to say we
>> feed
>> some veggies!!
>> I LIKE feeding some fruit/veggies.
>
> Hi Mellisa,
> In my experience, the only time you feel that you are being bashed is
> if the alleged bashing bothers you...

Yeah, well, I just want to know if you ever find any solid evidence
that carnivores can access and convert the antioxidant precursors in
plants into usable compounds. Generally they are much more complex
than those in carcasses, and often accompanied by other plant lectins
which are potentially irritating and inflammatory in themselves. So
let me know, because my dog and I both depend on the antioxidants
stored in the organs of the prey we eat - I've always had the
impression that nature helped us out here, by making our appropriate
food appropriate. We're pretty harda** about eating right, but we can
learn...

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (21)
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5f. Re: older dog
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:25 am ((PDT))

I don't know why you would expect ridicule or bashing. It has pretty much
been the consensus on this list that if your dog likes fruit/veggies, if he
has no physical malady that would preclude feeding fruit/veggies and as long
as they don't take up a significant portion of the diet, thus replacing
necessary food, go for it! We pretty much recommend that newbies don't
include them in the diet until they get their dog established on raw, at
which time if they want to use a few as treats....cool!

The issue is whether they are necessary (they aren't)! Everything a
carnivore requires is included in their natural diet of meat, bones and
organs. They have no need for carbohydrates.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mlodge" <mmlodge@att.net>

Now bash away, but I know there are plenty of you here who do the same
thing, you all talk via email because we are all afraid to say we feed
some veggies!!

I LIKE feeding some fruit/veggies.

Messages in this topic (21)
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6a. Newbie with various questions/egg question/dividing whole carcass qu
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:59 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Lindsay Dorian" <iamentropygirl@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've been feeding my cat raw only for about 4 months so there are heaps of
> folks out there with more experience than me, plus she transitioned fairly
> quickly for a cat but FWIW here's our "relaxed approach"

Hi Lindsay, TK & Blaze,

thanks so much for your thoughtful answers, verrry helpful (and no, not to long!). I've
just moved to rural Ireland from Brooklyn, NY, so we have the wings with the "extra meaty
part on them too" (I'm a massage therapist, I wonder whether these are the biceps...? ;-) )

When you give eggs, do you mix in any of the shell?

And do you, or anybody, know a good visual resource for quartering chicken etc carcasses,
i.e. the best places to chop, so I can freeze smaller portions?

Best,

Sarah

Messages in this topic (6)
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6b. Newbie with various questions/egg question/dividing whole carcass qu
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:38 am ((PDT))

Hi, Sarah!
The part of the chicken left on the wing when cut off is
breast meat, pec, maybe?
You can add bits of shell in with egg, but some just aren't interested
in eating them. Try squshing them into bigger or smaller pieces, to
see what might be accepted. My little dog would eat them up. My big
girl sometimes eats them, sometimes not. My mom's cat would lick them
, but not eat any shell at all.
This is a good visual link for cutting up a chicken, to get yourself
started anyway. I Googled "cutting up chicken". There are other links,
a couple with a vid. These parts are meant, of course, for people to
cook.
I do it differently. I generally cut through the top of the chicken
slightly on the side from the keel, or breast bone. I use kitchen
shears and cut it completely through.
Then, I press each half away from the middle, onto the cutting board.
Then, I cut from slightly on one side of the backbone all the way
through the chicken again.
With each half, I take the shears and cut between the breast and leg
through the back again.
The leg quarters should be cut between each joint; bend the quarter at
a joint, and cut through with a knife or shears. You'll have three
pieces; the drumstick, the thigh, and a bit of back.
The breast/back quarters can be cut up into 3-4 pieces, any old way.
One part will be the wing, with a bit of breast meat.
My way will give you 12-14 pieces, with the backbone as part of the
quartered pieces, mostly not separate from the meatier parts.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> thanks so much for your thoughtful answers, verrry helpful (and no,
not to long!). I've
> just moved to rural Ireland from Brooklyn, NY, so we have the wings
with the "extra meaty
> part on them too" (I'm a massage therapist, I wonder whether these
are the biceps...? ;-) )
>
> When you give eggs, do you mix in any of the shell?
>
> And do you, or anybody, know a good visual resource for quartering
chicken etc carcasses,
> i.e. the best places to chop, so I can freeze smaller portions?
>
> Best,
>
> Sarah
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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7a. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "Mike Devlin" mdevlin@aisle10.net emdeefa
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:01 am ((PDT))

Sorry, I must have left that out. He is fairly small, an 8 1/2 month old 24
pound beagle mix. i think he just barely qualifies as "medium sized".

- Thanks for your help.
- Mike

On 7/28/07, Chia <chia.m@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> #### I didn't see the size, age, or weight of your dog so I'll reply to
> these questions assuming that he is a larger dog. Don't be surprised if he
> doesn't like kidney at first. Organs take patience, trial and error,
> manipulation and time. My dog used to be and still can be, a prima Donna
> with what is offered but now, I have it down to a science and am limited
> with what I offer. My boy prefers lamb livers and pork hearts so that is
> his mainstay. Have to love those dangling ventricles off the hearts.. ;-))
>
>

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Messages in this topic (21)
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8a. Re: question for Bill Carnes/ how meaty are chicken backs?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:19 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "quiltingtuppy" <mamacass@...>
wrote:
>
> Regarding the sample menu plan, you recommend only chicken backs
> the first week, and as
> half the diet in the second week - does this include the legs?
> (very green newbie here)

I don't understand what you are asking here. First week is chicken
backs. Second week add chicken leg quarters. Yes the quarters
include the legs.

> I can't
> see there's much meat involved to get near the ratio of 80%
> meat/ the rest organ and bone

There is nowhere near the 80/10/10 ratio in these first two weeks.
I'm not trying to create an optimum diet nutritionwise in the first
weeks. Nutrition comes a few weeks into the diet. What I am trying
to do, and from reports I get, very successfully, is to eliminate
the problem of diarrhea that many dogs have when first switching to
the raw diet. It is intentionally heavy in bone for this purpose.

> (I've read not to fuss about organ too early on until they're
> used to raw). Obviously you know what you're doing!

Hehe, some people will question that, but the people I have talked
to that used this method of switching their dog had no problems with
diarrhea. I don't know one single dog that did unless they had
diarrhea before the switch, in which case it took a couple of days
on this diet to get rid of it.

Introducing organs too early in the diet is sometimes another cause
of diarrhea.

> And leave the skin on?

Leave the skin on unless it is causing a problem (diarrhea). Again,
I have never heard of a dog having a problem if my method is
strictly aheared to but if he should, take the skin off and feed
less volume overall.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. ADMIN/Re: In memory of Harley 10/26/97 thru 07/27/07
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:37 am ((PDT))

Please send all condolences privately.
Thank you.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (5)
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10a. Rabbit makes dark brown poo?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:01 am ((PDT))

Hi, I am trying to introducing rabbit to palette. She has been fed 2 times of rabbit now.She is not thrilled about it but still eat all.

I look like asking more question about poo than anything else, but I have 1 question to ask.

Is rabbit meat makes poo dark brown color while meat is lighter color?

She had dark brown color so,I was surprised. I still feeding buffalo meat half portion and the red meat take over light colored meat poo color?

I know as long as poo is solid,I may not need to think about it but it was just wiered so,thought about asking.

Thank you

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: Rabbit makes dark brown poo?
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:19 am ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:

> Hi, I am trying to introducing rabbit to palette. She has been fed
2 times of rabbit now.She is not thrilled about it but still eat all.

Hi Yassy --

This is about exactly how Griffin feels about rabbit: he eats it all,
but he doesn't much jump for joy.

> Is rabbit meat makes poo dark brown color while meat is lighter
color?

Usually, for Griff, yes. I've found that only poultry -- only eating
birds -- makes Griff have light poop. Everything else -- pork,
rabbit, goat, lamb, beef, venison, other mammals, you name it -- we
get dark poop.

Though you're right -- it's nothing much to be worried about. You
haven't been developing an obsession about poop-watching while I've
been underground this summer, have you??

-- sandy & griffin, not far away & wondering where you're getting
affordable bison ...

Messages in this topic (2)
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11.1. Re: Chicken feet
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:10 am ((PDT))

> how much meat is on one of those little things though?

HI.I get chicken feet(but better to say chicken paws because it is just hand portion area and not arm area coming with it) at shoppers,and I know Hare today sell chicken feet(paws) sell as well.

Personally I see it as bony so,when I need to add more bone,I tend to use this.

Plus,if you see little wet poo,even if it is afternoon,I can grab from feezer and give for dinner.Since bone is not as thick as beef bones or rib bones,it seems easy to defrost as well.

My husband once looked her eating chicken feet and he said "yuck" but,palette herself enjoy it a lot.

I am trying to introduce rabbit to palette and I just used chicken feet just like treats for" good eating" sort of..

I gave her rabbit (half portion of her entire meal) and she eat all;although not thrilled,and after eating it,I praised her and gave her chicken feet and buffalo meat(this makes half od her entire meal with rabbit).She was so happy to see her favorite kinds of meat and she trotted to me and grabbed and backed to her mat area and lay down and ate it all.

I would not feed chicken feet only meal but it is good for adding more bone to meal even if you need it the same day.I have read some people give as snack too.

This will be staple stock up thing in freezer I think.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

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Messages in this topic (29)
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12.1. Re: ground meat
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:53 am ((PDT))

>2) ground meat has more bacteria than whole or meats cut into large portions

Hi, this is just a thought but, I remember you told me that you give slippery elm with ground meat namely ground chicken.I too do not like pre-made thing because I cannot figure out waht it is in the stuff and no control over the ingredients.

That being said, If you buy/use, say, chicken breast and mince it with food processor to make meatball to mix in Slippery elm,then, it is better than buying ground chicken at store and make,I thought.What do you think? That may cut the bacteria % too.

It goes same with beef. If someone needed to make meatball,then they can get piece of meat and mince it with food processor. That could cut bacteria% too.

Maybe pricer than buing ground chicken/beef but less risk.

I don't use ground meat of any kinds but I thought that if ground meat is needed to make meatball,it maybe good idea.

Just a thought.
yassy

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Messages in this topic (32)
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13a. Re: Refusing organs
Posted by: "Kari Carlisle" kari@houndgroup.com karicarlisle
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:53 am ((PDT))

My two dogs aren't too thrilled with organ meat either, and it's a
real challenge to get them to eat it. I recently ran out of green
tripe mixed with organ meat that I got from greentripe.com. My dogs
love that stuff! I bought some chicken livers and put them in their
bowls with some other meat. They both picked each liver out and
dropped in the grass. I picked it all up, and put back in the
container. I came across it in the fridge a few days later and decided
to try browning it on the stove. I dumped it in the pan, turned on the
heat, and within a couple of minutes, I was dying from the stench.
Then I realized that blades of grass that got picked up with the liver
had fermented. I would rather take a huge whiff of green tripe than
what I was smelling! I went ahead and served it up. Samantha wolfed it
down. Jack was still a little unsure, but ended up eating the whole
bowlful. Go figure. I don't think, however, that I'll be attempting
the whole fermented grass thing again!

Kari
Jack and Sam's houndmom

Messages in this topic (4)
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14a. Re: Maya & diarrhea...ate something unknown
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:53 am ((PDT))

>Then yesterday (Friday) she had diarrhea all day too so we fasted her all yesterday and >gave her Slippery Elm.

Hi. I know that when dog has diarrhea;uncontrolable poo,you need to make sure dog gets water/liquid enough so that the dog not going to dehydrated.

When my dog get diarrhea, I make sure she drinks water but if she didn't I give her broth or something. Ginny once mentioned to me that she give slippery elm mixed in broth.You can do that when you dose the Slippery elm I think.

And I try getting rid of visible fat from meat and choose less fattier cut of meat and maybe giving bone would help.Because bone normally firm up the poo.

When my dog had Lamb tongue, I fed normal portion of tongue first day and it went watery poo. It was not diarrhea because she went just once a day. So, I cut back tongue portion and cut off visible fat and gave half lamb tongue half chicken with pork neck bone or Buffalo rib.I added quite bony stuff to meal and her poo got solid back and normal.

It maybe I could use tongue because she was not having diarrhea but,you can give less fatty meat;chicken for example with bony stuff like pork neck(my dog ate pork neck just like chicken bone and seemed soft).It may help.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (2)
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15a. Re: fresh meat
Posted by: "v_rod_or" v_rod_or@yahoo.com v_rod_or
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:53 am ((PDT))

> do u need to freeze all meats before feeding?

I've heard from several respected folks here that fish (at least some
kinds) should be frozen first...think this has something to do with
bones. Maybe someone can elaborate further?

Rod

Messages in this topic (4)
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15b. Re: fresh meat
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:05 pm ((PDT))

No, it has nothing to do with bones. Fresh caught salmonoids from the PNW
require freezing to kill possible parasites. Commercial fish has already
been frozen.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "v_rod_or" <v_rod_or@yahoo.com>

I've heard from several respected folks here that fish (at least some
kinds) should be frozen first...think this has something to do with
bones. Maybe someone can elaborate further?

Messages in this topic (4)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11853

There are 9 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Constipation
From: Giselle

2a. Re: In memory of Harley 10/26/97 thru 07/27/07
From: inavioletworld

3a. Refusing organs
From: willawilla@aol.com

4a. Newbie with various questions
From: Lindsay Dorian

5. question for Bill Carnes/ how meaty are chicken backs?
From: quiltingtuppy

6a. Re: Windfall
From: chele519

7. Maya & diarrhea...ate something unknown
From: melaniearles

8a. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: Chia

9a. Re: How much raw food should I be feeding a day?
From: Chia

Messages
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1.1. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:03 am ((PDT))

Hi, Cheryl!
Pre made anything is too expensive and always takes away
your control of exactly what to feed and in what proportion.

A species appropriate whole prey model diet consists of raw whole prey
animals, or a "best approximation" of same; a variety of protein
sources in as large a variety as you can afford to source and feed.

The reason why no veggies? dogs are carnivores, just like wolves. They
*are* wolves, in every essential, except for their outer appearance.
Just because wolves can survive in times of a dearth of prey animals
on vegetation and anything they can scrounge, doesn't mean that this
is optimal nutrition for them. Its not. They way wolves evolved is
that the prey animal eats the vegetation, the wolf eats the prey and
gets the benefit of the prey animals diet in a form that's optimal for it.

We, as humans, are omnivores, but just because we can survive on
Mickey Dee's doesn't mean it is an optimal diet for us, or should be
eaten every day, or even frequently.

Starting a dog out on raw after a lifetime of feeding kibble means
that you should feed a single protein source, to help their digestive
system acclimate, and add one protein source at a time every couple
weeks to be able to identify any incipient problems with a protein and
tweak the diet.

Feed large portions, commensurate with the dog's size; and not ground.
Ground food robs the dog of needed exercise and activity, jaws, and
legs and body. Big parts help a dogs teeth and gums stay clean and
healthy.

You should follow the guidelines of feeding 80% meat - meat is muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue, anything that isn't bone or organs. 10%
bone, edible bone. 10% organs, liver should be half of that. This
approximates the composition of an "average" prey animal. More or less
of each % can be fed, and adjustments made, so that balance can be
achieved over time. "Daily Balance" of each and every nutrient and
vitamin is a commercial advertising fantasy.

So, to answer your Q, the mix you quoted has;
1) ground meat and bone - robs the dog of eating activity.

2) ground meat has more bacteria than whole or meats cut into large
portions.

3) the percentage of bone to meat is a mystery, you have no control
and bone is cheaper than meat, so it may have too much in proportion
to the meat fed per meal.

4) too much meat variety in one meal. variety is good, but again, you
should have more control over what exactly is fed, how much, and when.
5) quality of meat sources. commercial meats often have lesser quality
than human grade. my dog(s) eat from the same sources I eat from, if
its good for me, I'm satisfied that its good for them.

6) veggies and fruits are not necessary. again, if you decide to feed
any veggies/fruits, ever, they should be your choice of how much, and
what. I may decide to share a slice of an apple or shred of carrot
with my dog, but its not part of the diet. Fresh is better.

7) supplements and additives should be chosen carefully, with an eye
for the exact needs of each dog. Salmon or Fish Body Oil is often a
good choice of supplement, but again, you should be able to choose the
quality of it and amount fed. It shouldn't contain any plant based oils.

8) Herbs or spices might be good for a dog, but each should be chosen
for that specific dog, for a particular reason, not just because it
sounds nice on a label. Fresh is better.

8) Liver is necessary to a dog, but should be about 5% of the diet.
Other organs; like kidney, spleen, sweet breads, etc. should be part
of the diet, too.

9) if your dog develops digestive or other problems, how can you
separate out the ingredients to pinpoint the source of the trouble?

10) feeding an unknown amount of ground bone daily can cause
constipation, or even impaction.

Why pay for someone to grind all this stuff up together, when you have
more control over the price, quality and content if you can choose and
buy whole meat parts to feed to your dogs?

IMO, this does NOT meet the standards of this list.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi Catherine.
> I am going to write what is in a NV Raw Frozen Diet bag of food. I know
> folks this is an all meat list. I'm trying to understand that
> I just want to know why this is also not considered in your RAW
terms as
> a raw diet also.
> These are the ingredients. 95% lamb, liver and Raw ground bone.
Grain free
> Lamb, lamb liver, raw ground lamb bone, lamb heart, lamb kidney,
apples,
> carrots butternut squash, Ground flaxseed, Chicken eggs, Broccoli,
> Lettuce, Spinach, Dried kelp, Apple cider vinegar, Parsley,
honey,Salmon
> oil, olive oil, blueberries, alfalfa sprouts, persimmons, duck eggs,
> pheasant eggs, quail eggs, Rosemary, sage and clove. if it didn't have
> the veggies would it meet your raw standards?
>
> so why is this also considered non carnivorous?

Messages in this topic (31)
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2a. Re: In memory of Harley 10/26/97 thru 07/27/07
Posted by: "inavioletworld" inavioletworld@yahoo.com inavioletworld
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:33 am ((PDT))

Dear Cheryl,

I am truly very sorry for your loss. This was a very touching letter. Today my best friend also
had to put her 10 year old dog to sleep. She is feeling as I'm sure you are. Would you mind
very much if I pass your letter on to her, to maybe help ease her pain a little?
Thanks again for sharing this, Maybe Laurie Lou and Harley are playing with each other on
their first day at the rainbow bridge.

Take care,
Julie :)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cornerstone_bullmastiffs"
<cornerstone_bullmastiffs@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Harley,
>
> Momma's gonna miss you, you precious girl. > Cheryl
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Refusing organs
Posted by: "willawilla@aol.com" willawilla@aol.com willajohns
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:33 am ((PDT))

Hi Erica.

I'm new to the list, been rawfeeding for about three months, and have had
this very same problem with my Scottie. I've read suggestions here about dusting
organs with parmesean, light searing, hidingt the organs in other meat, I
tried it all and nothing worked. I would take a tiny piece of liver and bury it
in a huge hunk of beef and she would eat the beef and leave that tiny
fingernail sliver of liver I'd hid.

What has finally worked for me is eggs. Since Scottie loves eggs, I chop up
some liver, some heart, some kidney, maybe a little beef, too, and whip it
into two raw eggs. She gulps it down like it was candy.

Hope this helps.

On another note and another subject, I had an epiphany about the 80 percent
meat, 10 percent organs, and 10 percent bone. Once I got my thinking wrapped
around the 10 percent bone/10 percent organ ratio, I realized our dogs should
get about the same amount of bone as organ meat. Simple!

Note to the mods and posters: I can't thank you enough for this list. I
would never have had the courage to switch without all of you and I am extremely
grateful for what must be a labor of love, answering the same questions over
and over and over again. But I would never have "gotten it" if you hadn't.
So, THANK YOU ALL!

--Willa

**I've been trying to introduce organs to my dog, but he hates them.
Occasionally, he'll eat liver, if I chop it up into pieces and mix it
with ground meat or other chunks of meaty meat. I offered him hunks
of cow heart last week. He eventually ate the heart hunks the first
two days I offered it, but refused it after that. I offered liver
again and he refused. Next I offered beef kidney. He rolled it
around in his mouth a few times, but wouldn't eat it. I tried cutting
it into pieces and mixing it with pieces of meaty meat, but he ate
around it. After about half an hour, I took it away from him, and
offered it again the next morning - alone. He still refused, so I
pulled it away after about half an hour. I offered it a third time
for dinner, and he continued to refuse. I'm concerned that I won't be
able to incorporate organs. Any suggestions? Thanks, Erica**

<BR><BR>**************************************<BR> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

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Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Newbie with various questions
Posted by: "Lindsay Dorian" iamentropygirl@gmail.com irwin_bird
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:33 am ((PDT))

Hi,

I've been feeding my cat raw only for about 4 months so there are heaps of
folks out there with more experience than me, plus she transitioned fairly
quickly for a cat but FWIW here's our "relaxed approach"

<2. There seem to be various opinions online about grinding vs. not grinding
bone.>

I don't grind and never did although she likes mince beef and pork, and
mince is often the only way she'll eat beef - she smashes though chicken
bones like a real "wildcat" : )

< 3. Optimal percentages and ratios of nutrients... seems important to be
both thoughtful and relaxed,>

she's pretty fussy in that what she likes today tomorrow she might refuse so
if we try something and she turns up her nose (I give her a few hours to
think about it) I just feed the leftovers to the dog and move on.

< 4. I've read such conflicting things about cats and fish, the fishmongers
and fearmongers>

she doesn't much like fish so... *shrugs* I guess if she liked it I'd feed
it more, I think it's a good way to get some of the weirder organs (brain,
eyeball etc) into a cat without having to order them specially

< 5. I would find it helpful personally if a couple of experienced people
who take the more relaxed approach about percentages and ratios could
describe, say, a sample week's worth of meals for a cat>

She loves pork above all else, followed by beef heart, and so far will only
eat chicken bones (although I am waiting on some rabbit and quail, and
duckling to try her on) so I pretty much just give her a few chunks of pig
(whatever is on sale, in the freezer, fresh from the butcher) or heart, or
lamb, or sometimes beef and some bony meaty bits of chicken wings, backs
etc. I don't usually give chicken as meaty meat per say since she gets a lot
of her chicken attached to the bony portions, but if there was a good sale
on chicken parts... well who knows. She will usually leave beef if it isn't
mince; and trim in particular (which we get for the dog) is hard for her to
eat. If she leaves all her meaty bits and I think it was because she
*couldn't/wouldn't* eat it as opposed to being in a "bone mood" I might feed
just meat the next meal or two.

I rarely feed the bony bits on their own, and not every day. oh except
chicken necks, sometimes she gets a whole chicken neck, or wing on its own.

Also here in Australia chicken wings are different than in N.A them seem to
have a whole extra meaty part attached (sorry not up on my chicken anatomy)
and these are fun because she rip and tear away at them

when I think of it I give her a chicken liver (she handles a whole liver
fine, and likes it mixed with raw egg - although it gives her gas, but this
might be a bit err *rich for most cats)

she has so far refused other organs (and liver from other animals) so at
this stage we follow the "if it isn't eaten by the time it is looking dry
and smelly it goes to the dog!" she'll get over it!

I think she probably gets offered more bone than she needs but since she
regulates her own eating I tend to put a larger portion than I think she
will eat of a variety of bony/meaty chunks out and she picks what she wants.
Sometimes she leaves meat, sometimes she leaves bony meat, sometimes she
eats everything and sometimes she eats nothing... she's a cat

she definitely eats more bone than organ although the guideline is 10% of
each but that is something we will address over time.

I do think having a growing puppy helps with the picky feline syndrome, not
that it makes her less picky or fickle mind you, just that it is less
frustrating for the people if we feel like there is no waste!!

Hope this helps (and wasn't too long : )

Lindsay - and TK cat, and Blaze puppy

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Messages in this topic (3)
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5. question for Bill Carnes/ how meaty are chicken backs?
Posted by: "quiltingtuppy" mamacass@iprimus.com.au quiltingtuppy
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:33 am ((PDT))

Hi All,

I have just read Bill Carnes' very good Raw Feeding 101 essay in the archives, thank you Bill
for taking the time to help newbies baby-step in the beginning and for every post you take
the time to write I notice there are a few of you very kindly regularly educating people
through the list.

Regarding the sample menu plan, you recommend only chicken backs the first week, and as
half the diet in the second week - does this include the legs? (very green newbie here) I can't
see there's much meat involved to get near the ratio of 80% meat/ the rest organ and bone
(I've read not to fuss about organ too early on until they're used to raw). Obviously you know
what you're doing! but I was just wondering how it works out. And leave the skin on?

Thanks for your time
Regards
Stephanie in Australia

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Windfall
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:33 am ((PDT))

I know how you feel. Last year, after only a few months feeding raw, I
was able to get 3 piglets that had been crushed by their mother. I was
so nervous about feeding them that I had someone else who feeds raw
and had more experience come over while I did the first one. It was
kind of gross at first but once I saw how much she loved it, I was
glad I got them. I even took pictures of it. The worst part was when
she was eating the belly and the little pigs feet were hanging out of
the side of her mouth and twitching with every bite.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "linoleum5017" <linoleum5017@...>
wrote:
>
> So difficult to get over the yuck factor of this.... I picture a pyr
> whose face fur is red/brown now. I WANT to try this but it seems so
> gross.....
>
> Lynne

Messages in this topic (5)
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7. Maya & diarrhea...ate something unknown
Posted by: "melaniearles" SibeMaya@gmail.com melaniearles
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:07 am ((PDT))

Hi All,

We had Maya at our in-laws for them to watch while we were gone for
the day 3 days ago (Wednesday). We went to pick her up and found out
she'd gone poop in the house. THis was the BIGGEST poop I've ever
seen her have (even when she was once on kibble months and months
ago). I thought she probably got into something there but didnt say
anything. Well, that evening and all of Thursday she had diarrhea.
Then yesterday (Friday) she had diarrhea all day too so we fasted her
all yesterday and gave her Slippery Elm. This morning she still has
diarrhea, but I couldnt keep fasting her, I thought she might start
throwing up bile. I gave her maybe 2 ounces of chicken breast.

What will help her? Should I just feed her small portions twice a
day (she'll just eat less than usual)? Or should I fast her again
the rest of today and see how she is tomorrow morning? If I fast her
again today, she'll have gone 2 days fasting besides 2 ounces of
chicken breast.

I know Maya can get into things at my in-laws. Their own dog got
into chocolate and that little beagle was LUCKY to have not died
(that's her name too). They know how much to watch Maya, but she
still gets away from them sometimes without them noticing. And trust
me, both me and my husband (their son) have OVER-ITERATED to them
what we mean by WATCH her. Unfortunately, they are the in-laws and I
cant just tell them they cant watch Maya...they do love her :-)

I dont think she ate chocolate. It's only like colored diarrhea,
some mucous. She doesnt have any other symptoms of eating
chocolate. Maybe she got into old food in one of the kids' rooms. I
dont really know.

Thanks!

Mel

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:42 am ((PDT))

-----Original Message-----
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of emdeefa
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 7:11 PM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: missing stuff in diet

For organs, aside from the chicken livers, they had beef liver, beef
kidney, beef heart, and tripe. So it looks like until I find a better
place that I can at least get some variety. I got some beef kidney,
and hopefully he likes it.

#### I didn't see the size, age, or weight of your dog so I'll reply to
these questions assuming that he is a larger dog. Don't be surprised if he
doesn't like kidney at first. Organs take patience, trial and error,
manipulation and time. My dog used to be and still can be, a prima Donna
with what is offered but now, I have it down to a science and am limited
with what I offer. My boy prefers lamb livers and pork hearts so that is
his mainstay. Have to love those dangling ventricles off the hearts.. ;-))

They had pork necks, but from what I read in the archives, pork necks
are only ok if they are big? because sometimes they are cut into small
triangles? the necks I saw looked real big, does that mean they are
ok? they looked like they were easily the size of my dogs head (like 2
fists put together in size).

#### they are okay if extra meat if offered. They usually are quite
bony. The one or two times I ever game them to Ricco he puked up alot of
bone bits the next day. Lesson learned, give extra meat to compensate for
the pathetic offering. Some stores, or butchers, have meatier ones but not
usually.

I got pork spare ribs and pork chops. From what I was reading, spare
ribs dont have enough meat, and the pork chops have bones that are too
small? so I was thinking that if I gave a pork chop (with the bone
removed) with a rib or two, that would even things out right? The ribs
seemed plenty big and I think he will love to pick the meat off of them.

#### see? You're getting it?... Pork chops are small though, not much
of a prey workout but in a pinch, and if you know your dog and the way he
eats, this should be alright. With time, you can feed all sorts of things
if you learn how your dog eats. I can feed assorted body parts and
construct nearly whole prey, if I get a great deal on say a case of chicken
backs. I'll construct a back, a quarter..etc..you get the idea. Although I
prefer giving him an entire or half chicken, in a pinch, because I know he
is a non-gulper, I can do this but I truly KNOW this dog and monitor at a
comfortable, subtle distance.

My dog eats pork ribs regularly...HUGE ones...very soft and seems to be a
favourite of his.

Then after a couple days, throw in one of the chicken theighs I have
to get some bone since he cant actually eat the rib bones right?

### yes...chicken thighs are small. What size dog?

Some other cuts of meat i saw that seemed cheap were beef chuck roast
and pork butts. Anything special I should know about them?

### that as long as your dog isn't a total 'newbie' to raw, you can feed
just about everything.

what about beef feet? should those be considered more like a treat
than a part of a meal? They also had oxtail but from how it was
packaged, it looked like a big 2 pound square. I am assuming its all
sliced up in smaller pieces, which would mean its not safe for him to
eat and it should be avoided right?

### oxtail cut in small portions are a NO. Getting a whole one is fun
though! Ask if they can get you one in and not to cut it. If they ask, say
you're making beef stock.

these bones scare the crap out of me.

### we've all been there. Now most of us don't even think twice. One
day, you'll be just like that..promise.. :-))

last thing. So i should avoid the tripe since it was the white kind,
right?

### you answered your own question. You are so clever..! :-))

Thanks for everyones help. I'll get this eventually.

### you already have!

Chia & Ricco
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9a. Re: How much raw food should I be feeding a day?
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:49 am ((PDT))

Can someone please give me some examples of what and HOW MUCH raw food I
should be giving my 12 week old american bulldog? She a fast growing large
breed and I don't want her to go to fast but I think I'm starving her right
now.
And if anyone has a good book to recommend that would be great too. At
this point I am getting so frusterated that I am tempted to feed her kibble
until I know more about this diet and the guidlines how to feed her.
PLEASE HELP!

#### my goodness...why would you harm your baby with commercial poison
when this is so easy? Take a breath...and the archives are FULL of
everything you could ever imagine. EVERY question, answered, especially
about puppies and dogs new to raw.

Feed 2-3 % of predicted adult body weight, approx of course. Purchase a
whole chicken, cut into half, then probably a quarter for the size of your
dog. Perhaps smash the meat up a bit with a mallet or slash the flesh to
show her it's food and let her eat three times a day for a few more weeks,
then you'll drop down to twice a day till she is a little older. The once a
day feeding may be decided by her self-regulating or by you. Usually before
a year or so. Others whom have raised pups will chime in here.

Introduce new variety gradually. Perhaps in a week or two, a small amount
of organ meats. Feeding your dog a proper diet is very easy, but at first,
you must be patient and relaxed. The right thing to do is not always easy
so make some calls, find deals on meats and organs, stock your freezer, and
KNOW you are doing the BEST for your pup.

Fresh food, no chemicals, no vaccines...pristine health!

Chia & Ricco

(read the archives...NOW... put in the effort and time and the knowledge
will give you all the confidence you need.

Also, go to www.rawmeatybones.com

download some chapters...READ!!!! See
many of our dogs ad www.rawfeddogs.net as well... )

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