[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11853

There are 9 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Constipation
From: Giselle

2a. Re: In memory of Harley 10/26/97 thru 07/27/07
From: inavioletworld

3a. Refusing organs
From: willawilla@aol.com

4a. Newbie with various questions
From: Lindsay Dorian

5. question for Bill Carnes/ how meaty are chicken backs?
From: quiltingtuppy

6a. Re: Windfall
From: chele519

7. Maya & diarrhea...ate something unknown
From: melaniearles

8a. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: Chia

9a. Re: How much raw food should I be feeding a day?
From: Chia

Messages
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1.1. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:03 am ((PDT))

Hi, Cheryl!
Pre made anything is too expensive and always takes away
your control of exactly what to feed and in what proportion.

A species appropriate whole prey model diet consists of raw whole prey
animals, or a "best approximation" of same; a variety of protein
sources in as large a variety as you can afford to source and feed.

The reason why no veggies? dogs are carnivores, just like wolves. They
*are* wolves, in every essential, except for their outer appearance.
Just because wolves can survive in times of a dearth of prey animals
on vegetation and anything they can scrounge, doesn't mean that this
is optimal nutrition for them. Its not. They way wolves evolved is
that the prey animal eats the vegetation, the wolf eats the prey and
gets the benefit of the prey animals diet in a form that's optimal for it.

We, as humans, are omnivores, but just because we can survive on
Mickey Dee's doesn't mean it is an optimal diet for us, or should be
eaten every day, or even frequently.

Starting a dog out on raw after a lifetime of feeding kibble means
that you should feed a single protein source, to help their digestive
system acclimate, and add one protein source at a time every couple
weeks to be able to identify any incipient problems with a protein and
tweak the diet.

Feed large portions, commensurate with the dog's size; and not ground.
Ground food robs the dog of needed exercise and activity, jaws, and
legs and body. Big parts help a dogs teeth and gums stay clean and
healthy.

You should follow the guidelines of feeding 80% meat - meat is muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue, anything that isn't bone or organs. 10%
bone, edible bone. 10% organs, liver should be half of that. This
approximates the composition of an "average" prey animal. More or less
of each % can be fed, and adjustments made, so that balance can be
achieved over time. "Daily Balance" of each and every nutrient and
vitamin is a commercial advertising fantasy.

So, to answer your Q, the mix you quoted has;
1) ground meat and bone - robs the dog of eating activity.

2) ground meat has more bacteria than whole or meats cut into large
portions.

3) the percentage of bone to meat is a mystery, you have no control
and bone is cheaper than meat, so it may have too much in proportion
to the meat fed per meal.

4) too much meat variety in one meal. variety is good, but again, you
should have more control over what exactly is fed, how much, and when.
5) quality of meat sources. commercial meats often have lesser quality
than human grade. my dog(s) eat from the same sources I eat from, if
its good for me, I'm satisfied that its good for them.

6) veggies and fruits are not necessary. again, if you decide to feed
any veggies/fruits, ever, they should be your choice of how much, and
what. I may decide to share a slice of an apple or shred of carrot
with my dog, but its not part of the diet. Fresh is better.

7) supplements and additives should be chosen carefully, with an eye
for the exact needs of each dog. Salmon or Fish Body Oil is often a
good choice of supplement, but again, you should be able to choose the
quality of it and amount fed. It shouldn't contain any plant based oils.

8) Herbs or spices might be good for a dog, but each should be chosen
for that specific dog, for a particular reason, not just because it
sounds nice on a label. Fresh is better.

8) Liver is necessary to a dog, but should be about 5% of the diet.
Other organs; like kidney, spleen, sweet breads, etc. should be part
of the diet, too.

9) if your dog develops digestive or other problems, how can you
separate out the ingredients to pinpoint the source of the trouble?

10) feeding an unknown amount of ground bone daily can cause
constipation, or even impaction.

Why pay for someone to grind all this stuff up together, when you have
more control over the price, quality and content if you can choose and
buy whole meat parts to feed to your dogs?

IMO, this does NOT meet the standards of this list.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi Catherine.
> I am going to write what is in a NV Raw Frozen Diet bag of food. I know
> folks this is an all meat list. I'm trying to understand that
> I just want to know why this is also not considered in your RAW
terms as
> a raw diet also.
> These are the ingredients. 95% lamb, liver and Raw ground bone.
Grain free
> Lamb, lamb liver, raw ground lamb bone, lamb heart, lamb kidney,
apples,
> carrots butternut squash, Ground flaxseed, Chicken eggs, Broccoli,
> Lettuce, Spinach, Dried kelp, Apple cider vinegar, Parsley,
honey,Salmon
> oil, olive oil, blueberries, alfalfa sprouts, persimmons, duck eggs,
> pheasant eggs, quail eggs, Rosemary, sage and clove. if it didn't have
> the veggies would it meet your raw standards?
>
> so why is this also considered non carnivorous?

Messages in this topic (31)
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2a. Re: In memory of Harley 10/26/97 thru 07/27/07
Posted by: "inavioletworld" inavioletworld@yahoo.com inavioletworld
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:33 am ((PDT))

Dear Cheryl,

I am truly very sorry for your loss. This was a very touching letter. Today my best friend also
had to put her 10 year old dog to sleep. She is feeling as I'm sure you are. Would you mind
very much if I pass your letter on to her, to maybe help ease her pain a little?
Thanks again for sharing this, Maybe Laurie Lou and Harley are playing with each other on
their first day at the rainbow bridge.

Take care,
Julie :)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cornerstone_bullmastiffs"
<cornerstone_bullmastiffs@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Harley,
>
> Momma's gonna miss you, you precious girl. > Cheryl
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Refusing organs
Posted by: "willawilla@aol.com" willawilla@aol.com willajohns
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:33 am ((PDT))

Hi Erica.

I'm new to the list, been rawfeeding for about three months, and have had
this very same problem with my Scottie. I've read suggestions here about dusting
organs with parmesean, light searing, hidingt the organs in other meat, I
tried it all and nothing worked. I would take a tiny piece of liver and bury it
in a huge hunk of beef and she would eat the beef and leave that tiny
fingernail sliver of liver I'd hid.

What has finally worked for me is eggs. Since Scottie loves eggs, I chop up
some liver, some heart, some kidney, maybe a little beef, too, and whip it
into two raw eggs. She gulps it down like it was candy.

Hope this helps.

On another note and another subject, I had an epiphany about the 80 percent
meat, 10 percent organs, and 10 percent bone. Once I got my thinking wrapped
around the 10 percent bone/10 percent organ ratio, I realized our dogs should
get about the same amount of bone as organ meat. Simple!

Note to the mods and posters: I can't thank you enough for this list. I
would never have had the courage to switch without all of you and I am extremely
grateful for what must be a labor of love, answering the same questions over
and over and over again. But I would never have "gotten it" if you hadn't.
So, THANK YOU ALL!

--Willa

**I've been trying to introduce organs to my dog, but he hates them.
Occasionally, he'll eat liver, if I chop it up into pieces and mix it
with ground meat or other chunks of meaty meat. I offered him hunks
of cow heart last week. He eventually ate the heart hunks the first
two days I offered it, but refused it after that. I offered liver
again and he refused. Next I offered beef kidney. He rolled it
around in his mouth a few times, but wouldn't eat it. I tried cutting
it into pieces and mixing it with pieces of meaty meat, but he ate
around it. After about half an hour, I took it away from him, and
offered it again the next morning - alone. He still refused, so I
pulled it away after about half an hour. I offered it a third time
for dinner, and he continued to refuse. I'm concerned that I won't be
able to incorporate organs. Any suggestions? Thanks, Erica**

<BR><BR>**************************************<BR> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

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Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Newbie with various questions
Posted by: "Lindsay Dorian" iamentropygirl@gmail.com irwin_bird
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:33 am ((PDT))

Hi,

I've been feeding my cat raw only for about 4 months so there are heaps of
folks out there with more experience than me, plus she transitioned fairly
quickly for a cat but FWIW here's our "relaxed approach"

<2. There seem to be various opinions online about grinding vs. not grinding
bone.>

I don't grind and never did although she likes mince beef and pork, and
mince is often the only way she'll eat beef - she smashes though chicken
bones like a real "wildcat" : )

< 3. Optimal percentages and ratios of nutrients... seems important to be
both thoughtful and relaxed,>

she's pretty fussy in that what she likes today tomorrow she might refuse so
if we try something and she turns up her nose (I give her a few hours to
think about it) I just feed the leftovers to the dog and move on.

< 4. I've read such conflicting things about cats and fish, the fishmongers
and fearmongers>

she doesn't much like fish so... *shrugs* I guess if she liked it I'd feed
it more, I think it's a good way to get some of the weirder organs (brain,
eyeball etc) into a cat without having to order them specially

< 5. I would find it helpful personally if a couple of experienced people
who take the more relaxed approach about percentages and ratios could
describe, say, a sample week's worth of meals for a cat>

She loves pork above all else, followed by beef heart, and so far will only
eat chicken bones (although I am waiting on some rabbit and quail, and
duckling to try her on) so I pretty much just give her a few chunks of pig
(whatever is on sale, in the freezer, fresh from the butcher) or heart, or
lamb, or sometimes beef and some bony meaty bits of chicken wings, backs
etc. I don't usually give chicken as meaty meat per say since she gets a lot
of her chicken attached to the bony portions, but if there was a good sale
on chicken parts... well who knows. She will usually leave beef if it isn't
mince; and trim in particular (which we get for the dog) is hard for her to
eat. If she leaves all her meaty bits and I think it was because she
*couldn't/wouldn't* eat it as opposed to being in a "bone mood" I might feed
just meat the next meal or two.

I rarely feed the bony bits on their own, and not every day. oh except
chicken necks, sometimes she gets a whole chicken neck, or wing on its own.

Also here in Australia chicken wings are different than in N.A them seem to
have a whole extra meaty part attached (sorry not up on my chicken anatomy)
and these are fun because she rip and tear away at them

when I think of it I give her a chicken liver (she handles a whole liver
fine, and likes it mixed with raw egg - although it gives her gas, but this
might be a bit err *rich for most cats)

she has so far refused other organs (and liver from other animals) so at
this stage we follow the "if it isn't eaten by the time it is looking dry
and smelly it goes to the dog!" she'll get over it!

I think she probably gets offered more bone than she needs but since she
regulates her own eating I tend to put a larger portion than I think she
will eat of a variety of bony/meaty chunks out and she picks what she wants.
Sometimes she leaves meat, sometimes she leaves bony meat, sometimes she
eats everything and sometimes she eats nothing... she's a cat

she definitely eats more bone than organ although the guideline is 10% of
each but that is something we will address over time.

I do think having a growing puppy helps with the picky feline syndrome, not
that it makes her less picky or fickle mind you, just that it is less
frustrating for the people if we feel like there is no waste!!

Hope this helps (and wasn't too long : )

Lindsay - and TK cat, and Blaze puppy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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5. question for Bill Carnes/ how meaty are chicken backs?
Posted by: "quiltingtuppy" mamacass@iprimus.com.au quiltingtuppy
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:33 am ((PDT))

Hi All,

I have just read Bill Carnes' very good Raw Feeding 101 essay in the archives, thank you Bill
for taking the time to help newbies baby-step in the beginning and for every post you take
the time to write I notice there are a few of you very kindly regularly educating people
through the list.

Regarding the sample menu plan, you recommend only chicken backs the first week, and as
half the diet in the second week - does this include the legs? (very green newbie here) I can't
see there's much meat involved to get near the ratio of 80% meat/ the rest organ and bone
(I've read not to fuss about organ too early on until they're used to raw). Obviously you know
what you're doing! but I was just wondering how it works out. And leave the skin on?

Thanks for your time
Regards
Stephanie in Australia

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Windfall
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:33 am ((PDT))

I know how you feel. Last year, after only a few months feeding raw, I
was able to get 3 piglets that had been crushed by their mother. I was
so nervous about feeding them that I had someone else who feeds raw
and had more experience come over while I did the first one. It was
kind of gross at first but once I saw how much she loved it, I was
glad I got them. I even took pictures of it. The worst part was when
she was eating the belly and the little pigs feet were hanging out of
the side of her mouth and twitching with every bite.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "linoleum5017" <linoleum5017@...>
wrote:
>
> So difficult to get over the yuck factor of this.... I picture a pyr
> whose face fur is red/brown now. I WANT to try this but it seems so
> gross.....
>
> Lynne

Messages in this topic (5)
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7. Maya & diarrhea...ate something unknown
Posted by: "melaniearles" SibeMaya@gmail.com melaniearles
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:07 am ((PDT))

Hi All,

We had Maya at our in-laws for them to watch while we were gone for
the day 3 days ago (Wednesday). We went to pick her up and found out
she'd gone poop in the house. THis was the BIGGEST poop I've ever
seen her have (even when she was once on kibble months and months
ago). I thought she probably got into something there but didnt say
anything. Well, that evening and all of Thursday she had diarrhea.
Then yesterday (Friday) she had diarrhea all day too so we fasted her
all yesterday and gave her Slippery Elm. This morning she still has
diarrhea, but I couldnt keep fasting her, I thought she might start
throwing up bile. I gave her maybe 2 ounces of chicken breast.

What will help her? Should I just feed her small portions twice a
day (she'll just eat less than usual)? Or should I fast her again
the rest of today and see how she is tomorrow morning? If I fast her
again today, she'll have gone 2 days fasting besides 2 ounces of
chicken breast.

I know Maya can get into things at my in-laws. Their own dog got
into chocolate and that little beagle was LUCKY to have not died
(that's her name too). They know how much to watch Maya, but she
still gets away from them sometimes without them noticing. And trust
me, both me and my husband (their son) have OVER-ITERATED to them
what we mean by WATCH her. Unfortunately, they are the in-laws and I
cant just tell them they cant watch Maya...they do love her :-)

I dont think she ate chocolate. It's only like colored diarrhea,
some mucous. She doesnt have any other symptoms of eating
chocolate. Maybe she got into old food in one of the kids' rooms. I
dont really know.

Thanks!

Mel

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:42 am ((PDT))

-----Original Message-----
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of emdeefa
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 7:11 PM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: missing stuff in diet

For organs, aside from the chicken livers, they had beef liver, beef
kidney, beef heart, and tripe. So it looks like until I find a better
place that I can at least get some variety. I got some beef kidney,
and hopefully he likes it.

#### I didn't see the size, age, or weight of your dog so I'll reply to
these questions assuming that he is a larger dog. Don't be surprised if he
doesn't like kidney at first. Organs take patience, trial and error,
manipulation and time. My dog used to be and still can be, a prima Donna
with what is offered but now, I have it down to a science and am limited
with what I offer. My boy prefers lamb livers and pork hearts so that is
his mainstay. Have to love those dangling ventricles off the hearts.. ;-))

They had pork necks, but from what I read in the archives, pork necks
are only ok if they are big? because sometimes they are cut into small
triangles? the necks I saw looked real big, does that mean they are
ok? they looked like they were easily the size of my dogs head (like 2
fists put together in size).

#### they are okay if extra meat if offered. They usually are quite
bony. The one or two times I ever game them to Ricco he puked up alot of
bone bits the next day. Lesson learned, give extra meat to compensate for
the pathetic offering. Some stores, or butchers, have meatier ones but not
usually.

I got pork spare ribs and pork chops. From what I was reading, spare
ribs dont have enough meat, and the pork chops have bones that are too
small? so I was thinking that if I gave a pork chop (with the bone
removed) with a rib or two, that would even things out right? The ribs
seemed plenty big and I think he will love to pick the meat off of them.

#### see? You're getting it?... Pork chops are small though, not much
of a prey workout but in a pinch, and if you know your dog and the way he
eats, this should be alright. With time, you can feed all sorts of things
if you learn how your dog eats. I can feed assorted body parts and
construct nearly whole prey, if I get a great deal on say a case of chicken
backs. I'll construct a back, a quarter..etc..you get the idea. Although I
prefer giving him an entire or half chicken, in a pinch, because I know he
is a non-gulper, I can do this but I truly KNOW this dog and monitor at a
comfortable, subtle distance.

My dog eats pork ribs regularly...HUGE ones...very soft and seems to be a
favourite of his.

Then after a couple days, throw in one of the chicken theighs I have
to get some bone since he cant actually eat the rib bones right?

### yes...chicken thighs are small. What size dog?

Some other cuts of meat i saw that seemed cheap were beef chuck roast
and pork butts. Anything special I should know about them?

### that as long as your dog isn't a total 'newbie' to raw, you can feed
just about everything.

what about beef feet? should those be considered more like a treat
than a part of a meal? They also had oxtail but from how it was
packaged, it looked like a big 2 pound square. I am assuming its all
sliced up in smaller pieces, which would mean its not safe for him to
eat and it should be avoided right?

### oxtail cut in small portions are a NO. Getting a whole one is fun
though! Ask if they can get you one in and not to cut it. If they ask, say
you're making beef stock.

these bones scare the crap out of me.

### we've all been there. Now most of us don't even think twice. One
day, you'll be just like that..promise.. :-))

last thing. So i should avoid the tripe since it was the white kind,
right?

### you answered your own question. You are so clever..! :-))

Thanks for everyones help. I'll get this eventually.

### you already have!

Chia & Ricco
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Messages in this topic (20)
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9a. Re: How much raw food should I be feeding a day?
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:49 am ((PDT))

Can someone please give me some examples of what and HOW MUCH raw food I
should be giving my 12 week old american bulldog? She a fast growing large
breed and I don't want her to go to fast but I think I'm starving her right
now.
And if anyone has a good book to recommend that would be great too. At
this point I am getting so frusterated that I am tempted to feed her kibble
until I know more about this diet and the guidlines how to feed her.
PLEASE HELP!

#### my goodness...why would you harm your baby with commercial poison
when this is so easy? Take a breath...and the archives are FULL of
everything you could ever imagine. EVERY question, answered, especially
about puppies and dogs new to raw.

Feed 2-3 % of predicted adult body weight, approx of course. Purchase a
whole chicken, cut into half, then probably a quarter for the size of your
dog. Perhaps smash the meat up a bit with a mallet or slash the flesh to
show her it's food and let her eat three times a day for a few more weeks,
then you'll drop down to twice a day till she is a little older. The once a
day feeding may be decided by her self-regulating or by you. Usually before
a year or so. Others whom have raised pups will chime in here.

Introduce new variety gradually. Perhaps in a week or two, a small amount
of organ meats. Feeding your dog a proper diet is very easy, but at first,
you must be patient and relaxed. The right thing to do is not always easy
so make some calls, find deals on meats and organs, stock your freezer, and
KNOW you are doing the BEST for your pup.

Fresh food, no chemicals, no vaccines...pristine health!

Chia & Ricco

(read the archives...NOW... put in the effort and time and the knowledge
will give you all the confidence you need.

Also, go to www.rawmeatybones.com

download some chapters...READ!!!! See
many of our dogs ad www.rawfeddogs.net as well... )

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