[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11844

There are 17 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: help for IBS
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Questions RE rawfeeding GSP Sambuca--now he has 'die' 'a' 'rear'
From: Giselle

3a. Re: Raw Chicken
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3b. Re: Raw Chicken
From: Nathalie Poulin

4a. Re: Newbie here
From: carnesbill
4b. Re: Newbie here
From: pet.wellness

5. different kinds of meat
From: doreenchui

6a. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: cresco299

7. Re: Newbie With a Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

8a. Re: Question from Newbie
From: Laurie Swanson

9.1. Metabolism - WAS: Re: recreational bones
From: Laurie Swanson

10a. Re: Duck
From: Katie

11a. Re: Heartworm positive?
From: Katie

12a. Re: Last nights disaster
From: Marilyn Neil

13.1. Re: turkey necks
From: Alan & Andrea Southern

14. Gulf of Mexico Fish
From: michelleraia1

15a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: Shannon Hully

Messages
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1a. Re: help for IBS
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:16 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@...> wrote:
>
> Her problem is diarrhea
> that starts for no reason I can figure out, and can continue
> for more
> then a week.

> I would love to go raw for both dogs but
> with her diarreaha I am just afraid to. In the reading of the
posts
> to this group, it seems upset stomach and bowels is commen.

Hey Lynda,
You need to get these dogs on a raw diet. Check out my web page at

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Follow the
recomendations on my page and your dogs stools should firm up pretty
quickly. You might want to remove the skin and fat from the backs
for a couple of weeks until the dogs adjust. This will help if not
eliminate the diarrhea problem as well as the skin problem.

Yes, sometimes newly switched dogs do have digestive upsets, but
often a dog with a diarrhea problem will clear up with a lot of bone
in the diet. Backs have a lot of bone.

After you get your dogs started, Read the book "Work Wonders" by
Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it at http://www.rawmeatybones.com

You can download it in PDF format for free. Just click on the
picture of the book on the main page.

A few informative web sites are:
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Good luck and keep us posted.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Questions RE rawfeeding GSP Sambuca--now he has 'die' 'a' 'rear'
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:57 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Tamatha!

> Sambuca has been RAW fed for a week and a half now. He has been
getting
> minimally/or not enhanced chicken quarters, whole fryer chickens
quartered,
> gizzards, and a few hearts for over a week with no problems.
>
> Now two days ago, in a moment of daftness, I decide to get some
chicken liver
> and instead of giving him a small amount (I found out after I gave
it to him)
> I loaded the boy up with about 2 1/2 Tablespoons worth in a day.
Too much?
> Yeah for him I think so. :)

**** We all learn by our mistakes. Sloooow introduction of squidgy ick
organs in *tiny* amounts is safer for pup and keeping sanity in the
household. ****
>
> And to make it worse, that same day I also bought different chicken
than I
> had been feeding (Perdue--enhanced with 12% chicken "broth")--again,
mistake as
> I forgot to read the package. So along with the enhanced chicken
and the
> 'McD's supersized' serving of liver my boy developed explosive
diarrhea that day
> and the next. The last two nights and days have not been too
incredibly fun
> and lesson learned--never shop on three hours of sleep and always
read the fine
> print . . .

**** Have you been having insomnia, too? : ) No fun. ****
>
> Today is the third day of the upset tummy, but it has improved
because when I
> realized my mistake yesterday evening, I made a point to return to
the store
> early this morning and buy the right chicken for him. I bought what
I had
> been feeding him previously with no problems--chicken without
enhancements and no
> additional liver for the time being.

**** Good plan!!! ****
>
> His poop is better today (more frothy (sorry) now and mucousy--but
not as
> watery but again not yet solid). DH was freaking out on me in the
wee hours of
> the morning and discussing the horrid K word to firm him up
temporarily. NOPE
> not going happen and didn't. :) HA!

**** Slippery Elm Bark Powder can help with soothing his digestive
system and returning everything to normal. Just mix 1 tsp to 1 oz of
ground or minced chicken and roll into a meatball. You can make a few
days worth up at a time, and feed before every meal, and in between
meals, too, if needed.

http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm ****
>
> So today is the first day of returning to serve him the non-enhanced
chicken
> and I am wondering when he will be back to "normal" as far as his
poops are
> concerned? I did notice today was better and not so sudden and
frequent nor as
> volatile. :)

**** I would offer plenty of water, even low/no salt chicken broth to
make sure he's well hydrated. You could fast him for a couple meals or
for the day, and dose him with the SEBP several times. I would also
cut back slightly (by about a 1/4) his portions on the first or second
day back on solid food. Feed though whole chicken parts and dose with
SEBP before each meal. Return him to full portions after 1-2 days or
temporarily add an extra meal for a few days to compensate. He'll get
back to normal much sooner this way. ****
>
> How long is too long for diarrhea for a 9 week old pup?

**** You want to be very proactive about avoiding diarrhea and even
frequent runny stools in young pups, they dehydrate quickly. Offer
plenty of fresh cold water, and even the chicken broth I mentioned
above. ****
>
> Next question. . . if it was just the liver I think I would have
noticed an
> improvement by the third day of not feeding anymore, correct? Going
on this
> assumption, I think it was more of the enhanced chicken that has
caused this
> issue. Possibly it could have been a double whammy too.

**** I Dunno. Its your best guess. I would proceed cautiously with
organs, adding only pinky fingernail sized amounts once daily and
gradually increasing first the frequency of feeding organs, then the
amounts. Organs need only be 10% of the diet, and there's no hurry to
add them. Also, I be very careful about reading labels from now on. ****
>
> Also, it couldn't be from switching him from K (breeder's) to raw
and it just
> finally taking effect after 1 1/2 weeks could it? He had been doing
so well
> until I made those two dietary changes, unfortunately all in the
same day.
>
> What do you think?

**** I don't think so, myself. It may just be that he will be an
individual you have to introduce new stuff to carefully and
cautiously. Or maybe not. If there is a reoccurrence of diarrhea,
without any dietary reasons, you might should get him checked for
parasites. ****
>
> P.S. Anyone have any good human recipes for cooking 10lbs + of
enhanced
> chicken quarters and bone in breasts??? ;) LOL! Guess what is for
dinner
> tonight. . .

**** Fire up the grill!!! Its BBQ time!! Roasted ears of corn, cole
slaw and watermelon, too! ; ) ****
>
> Another note. . how can you tell the difference between too skinny
and a healthy
> lean? I can now see a waistline on him and feel more ribs, but I
also wonder
> if he looks "too caved in" on the sides and can feel his backbone
more. What
> is normal?? Again, Sambuca is 9 weeks old today and he weighed 16.9
lbs when
> I got him 1 1/2 weeks ago and today he weighed 19 lbs. He is also
getting
> taller so that might be part of the weight gain too.
>
**** Its a "know thy dog" thing. If you've not had dogs, or pups
before, he's your learner. : ) After you get him over this gastric
distress episode, you want to feed him as much at each meal as he will
eat without causing loose stools, 3-4 times a day. On raw, he should
be able to gain weight commensurate with his skeletal growth, without
too much disparity. Sometimes, tho', pups do get a little thin
looking/feeling while having a growth spurt, then even out and catch
up until next time. I think he's looking a bit thin now because of the
upset his body's been going through the past few days. He should catch
his weight up soon after you get him back on regular meals with no
dreaded 'D'. Get used to feeling him all over and looking at him
daily, so you can get a 'feel' for how his ribs, backbone and hipbones
are when they're padded by a bit of weight gain. Pups shouldn't be
roly poly, but a little meat on their bones is a good thing. : )****

> Also, might be worth mentioning here. . the past two days I have
noticed an
> occasional clicking sound when he walks. Almost sounds like nails
on hardwood
> floors but it does it on carpet and on the grass except a little
deeper. He
> doesn't seem to notice or act any different nor be in any pain. I
took him to
> a reg vet today (1st visit and last as we are in the process of
finding a
> holistic vet who's views are similar to ours). The vet mentioned he
was tender in
> his left rear leg near the knee and that both knees had cartiledge
deposits
> on them and they might be flapping around. Has anyone heard of this
esp at 9
> weeks?? He said we need to watch it and if it worsens or if we see any
> lameness we need X-rays. As of right now just wait it out and
monitor him and he may
> outgrow it.
>
> Again, Sambuca doesn't act any different and the clicking doesn't
happen all
> the time. The vet 'mentioned' (ha using that word lightly) that it
could be a
> result of his current inadequate diet. Tsk Tsk, right? Yeah right.
Anyway,
> he suggested I supplement for the "best nutrition"(get this. . you
ready. . )
> with K? And Purina no doubt. YIKES! I knew this visit would be
unpleasant
> but never realized to this extreme. He said dogs are not carnivores
but
> omnivores and they also need vitamins that only Purina K can
provide. Sounds like
> the commercial, doesn't it?? I almost silently laughed myself into
hysteria.
> So again last visit, but my biggest concern was the clicking. Any
feedback?
>
**** I would be sure to allow him frequent play sessions, but not wild
tearing around, especially on slippery surfaces or with other dogs or
pups. No jumping up or off of things. I would severely limit stairs,
making sure he is on lead and WALKING up and down them, under
supervision. No enforced walks for exercise, just short leisurely
ones. Bone and connective tissue in his diet will add glucosamine to
help him build strong bones and tendons. It wouldn't hurt to give him
the occasional trachea and chicken foot to chew on.
No comment on the vet. ****
>
> Am I doing something wrong since I have noticed a visual weight loss
even
> though it may be how he is supposed to look? I know this is the
only beginning
> stages and until the diarrhea clears up I want to wait on adding
another
> protein source. I doubt it is what I am doing but thought I would
ask in case I am
> missing something simple.

**** Its much better to let things get normal, then gradually add a
new protein, then another, etc. You'll have the rest of his long life
to feed him a variety of proteins and body parts and organs, take it
slow for now. No hurry, no worry. : ) ****
>
> Thanks again for your advice and for your patience in reading my
diatribe. :)

**** NPs, keep us posted!!! ****
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey
>
> Tamatha and Sambuca (GSD)

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Raw Chicken
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:44 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/25/2007 6:35:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kristinasantes@yahoo.com writes:

I have been giving her chicken breasts with no bones. I thought it
used to be said that dogs can choke on small chicken bones. Please
correct me if i am wrong. Can I give just a whole chicken wihh all the
bones there?
Sorry, I am relly new to this, but I have best wishes for me dog :)

Kristina,

that would be true of cooked bones.. but RAW bones are edible.. completely.

the dogs need the calcium in the bones.. so they can NOT be left out, but
they don't need bone in every meal. approximately (just guess, no need to
measure) 10% of the over all diet should be edible bone. And chicken bones are
about as edible as bones get. lamb, goat and pork bones are also great for most
dogs.

NEVER feed a bare naked bone, all bones should be well covered in the meat
that comes on them naturally.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (12)
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3b. Re: Raw Chicken
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:36 am ((PDT))

If they were cooked bones, then there is definitely a
huge chance of her choking or getting impacted.
But raw chicken bones are highly edible and digestible
for your doggy! Not to mention full of nutrients!

Nathalie

> I have been giving her chicken breasts with no
> bones. I thought it
> used to be said that dogs can choke on small chicken
> bones.

Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca

Messages in this topic (12)
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4a. Re: Newbie here
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:34 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "paperfibe" <CollageStudio@...>
wrote:
>
Hey Deb,
I strongly suggest you check out my web page at

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

After that read the
book "Work Wonders" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it at

http://www.rawmeatybones.com and download it in PDF format for free.
Just click on the picture of the book on the main page.

A few informative web sites are:
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (19)
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4b. Re: Newbie here
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:38 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "paperfibe" <CollageStudio@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all, I've been reading posts and thought I'd better introduce
> myself and my new raw fed crew two one year old bulldogs Doc and Wyatt..
> They have been eating Canidae kibble until last week. I made the
> decision to switch to Raw and have started the boys with elk so far.
> Heres a link to their blog of their change over.
> http://docwyattraw.blogspot.com/
>
Love your blog! Great looking guys too.

I also have an itchy dog. I stopped feeding chicken. He is less and
less itchy every day. It is such a relief! You might want to go slowly
in adding variety.
Pamela

Messages in this topic (19)
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5. different kinds of meat
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:34 am ((PDT))

Can I feed cod fish and venision meat? How much of fish meat can I feed
at one time? My whippet weighs 14.5kg. I understand to start with small
amount. I currently feed 400gms of meat a day. Does that mean for fish
as well?
Doreen

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:35 am ((PDT))

> That said, I wish we'd hear from Jeff an update on his Sassy.
> Pamela
>

Sorry for the delay but I've spent all evening at the vets weighing my
options. Sassy was diagnosed with Parvo this afternoon, and In my
vets eyes, one of the worst cases he's seen in a while. While I'm
relived that her condition was not brought on by her raw diet, I
almost wish it was. That way I could get my slap on the wrist bring
her home.

It is truly amazing how quickly I've been turned into a pariah by the
neighbors and family. They all assume that because I've been feeding
my kids this horrible diet, that it's my fault sassy is so ill. It
just makes me want to shake the snot out of each and every one of
them. None of them have lick of sense or the ability to think for
themselves.

Per our vet, we are looking at dropping $1,500-$2,000 over the next 5
days to keep her on an IV and antibiotics. I pulled every string I
could but cannot fund her treatment. After several hours of calling,
I found another hospital who "quoted" me $400-$800. So tomorrow my
wife will transfer her from our current vet to the new one. I really
hate bargain shopping for health services, but it's either that or
have her put to sleep.

I thank everyone for their posts and their concern. My wife is truly
amazed that there are so many caring "strangers" out here in yahoo
land. I even received several e-mails from nice people wishing me and
Sassy the best.

I don't care what my father-in-law thinks about you, you're all a
great group of people!

Jeff and Sassy

Messages in this topic (17)
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7. Re: Newbie With a Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:35 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/25/2007 11:01:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
_summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com _ (mailto:summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com?Subject=
Re:%20Newbie%20With%20A%20Feeding%20Dilemma%20-Won't%20Eat%20Frozen%20Either)
writes:

Nor can they handle cold meat. Since they eat only what they kill, and they
usually don't kill
anything large, their system isn't evolved to deal with meat that has been
left to cool.

****
That's interesting. Not only do my 3 cats not care whether it's fresh meat
or a couple of days thawed, but they don't care that I always feed them
straight out of the refrigerator. Sometimes it's something that's still pretty cold
and hard--like if I just remembered to pull something out of the freezer when
I'm home at noon and then feed them when I come in after work. If I'm paying
attention to them and not rushing to get out the door, I may run hot tap
water on a piece of meat that hasn't been out of the freezer overnight and feels
hard, but I'm sure I don't always manage to do even that...and nobody has
ever seemed to have any problem with it.

Of course, that may be because they know I'll just stick it back in the
fridge if they walk off from it, and they won't get anything until next morning!
:)

Lynda

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Re: Question from Newbie
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:36 am ((PDT))

If it's small enough for them to gulp, then it's not big enough! :-)
What exactly are you feeding, and how often? Are they new to raw or
new to prey-model? I have a very enthusiastic-eating Boston, so I know
about gulping. He slowed down a lot after a few/several months on prey
model. Don't get me wrong--he likes his food, but he is much better
about not trying to fit crazy things down his throat. I still try to
feed pretty big hunks, and am careful about the size/cuts of bones I
give him.

If you give your dogs bigger, more complicated things they have to work
at and rip the meat off of, their stomachs will be more ready for
what's coming in, and it will be in more manageable pieces going down.
That should help with the vomiting.

If they're new to this type of food, they might learn how to eat better
(using paws, etc.), but some dogs just won't. As to the one who tries
not to get near the meat, he does eventually eat, I assume? If he has
food he has to work at and can't gulp in one bite, he'll have to figure
something out! :-)

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
>
> My two pugs gulp their food, whatever it is big or small and once
they
> have gulped everything, they swallow it and immediately throw it back
> up.

Messages in this topic (2)
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9.1. Metabolism - WAS: Re: recreational bones
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:36 am ((PDT))

Hi Nathalie,

I love watching my Boston eat a goat leg!

Since the poop is dry and crumbly and you mention it seems like she
doesn't go "completely," it does sound like too much bone and
constipation. If the stools were runny, then it might be too much
food overall.

I think Carrie has talked about how she feeds in the morning or
night, but not the afternoon, to avoid nighttime bathroom trips. I
usually feed in the late afternoon or evening and don't really have
to worry about nighttime poops unless I've fed too much--then we
might be up a few times. Sometimes he'll poop soon after a meal (I
think that's the previous meal coming out), often it will be several
hours later (maybe 6 or 7 or so), and sometimes it will be the next
day.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Nathalie Poulin
<poulin_nathalie@...> wrote:
>> Another thing, I notice she's been pooping a LOT
> lately, even though it's pretty dry and crumbly
> (probably from all the bone she eats).

> How fast do your dogs metabolize a meat meal? Or a
> bonier meal?
>

Messages in this topic (39)
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10a. Re: Duck
Posted by: "Katie" kcrockett@mac.com kcrockettla7
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:36 am ((PDT))

How long did it take for the symtoms to go away?

i have goldens with allergies . . . their "allergy testing" showed that clancy is allergic to lamb,
duck, some kind of fish (don't remember which) and tonka is allergic to venison and poultry
(didn't specify - just said "poultry mix".

I'd been told that they may not be allergic to those foods in raw form, so we've been
experimenting a little. i tried pork last week, and clancy immediately started itching like
crazy. i retreated back to giving him chicken . . . but am wondering how long he'll itch ofr!

...katie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "chele519" <chele519@...> wrote:
>
> When I started raw i did an elimination diet. Chicken made her ears
> beet red and extremely itchy within 30 minutes. I went back to pork
> and waited til the symptoms went away and tried beef and then turkey.
> Each of those took a few days for symptoms to start and they weren't
> as bad as with the chicken but still obvious.

Messages in this topic (16)
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11a. Re: Heartworm positive?
Posted by: "Katie" kcrockett@mac.com kcrockettla7
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:53 am ((PDT))

what kind of experience? i have fostered many HW positive golden retrievers while they are
going through heartworm treatment.

...katie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> Anyone on this list have experience with heartworm positive dogs? Please
> refer me. I don't think this is the place to actually discuss it.
> Thanks.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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12a. Re: Last nights disaster
Posted by: "Marilyn Neil" ems1classic@btinternet.com marilyn9751
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:08 am ((PDT))

Yes you are right, it was olive oil. hehehehe

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote: Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@...> wrote:
>
> When this happened to my sister lab (although fresh food) the vet
suggested a bottle of cod liver oil, this helped enomously, the kibble
basically slid through the gut without swelling.
*****
Gadzooks! A whole bottle of cod liver oil will deliver to a dog many
times the safe amount it should ingest. That's--heck, I can't even
figure out how much vitamin A and vitamin D the dog would be getting in
one stunning blow.

Nay, I say, nay!

It's much safer, if you urgently need to lube the tubes, to use olive
oil or even corn or canola cooking oils.
Chris O

Ems xxx

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13.1. Re: turkey necks
Posted by: "Alan & Andrea Southern" wykham@sa.chariot.net.au seawyndriana
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:07 am ((PDT))

I have fed 3" pieces of turkey neck to our cats.

Alan & Andrea
KITNKABOODLE BURMESE
WYKHAM BRITISH SHORTHAIR
QUINIVA STANDARD POODLES
http://users.chariot.net.au/~wykham
Aldinga Beach
South Australia
Australia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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14. Gulf of Mexico Fish
Posted by: "michelleraia1" michelleraia1@yahoo.com michelleraia1
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:10 am ((PDT))

We are going deep sea fishing soon. Does anyone know which deep sea
fish out of the Gulf of Mexico would be safe? King fish and shark are
popularly caught. Thanks.

Michelle

Messages in this topic (1)
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15a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:34 am ((PDT))

LOL I certainly don't run out and hunt for their fresh dinner! I've
actually managed to get mine on whole prey so I just buy them small
animals on-line and feed them those. It's so satisfying to hear them
crunching away! It's funny, getting them to eat chicken bones and
such was near impossible (except my youngest who we've nicknamed iron
guts and will eat anything) but once they got whole animals they were
just in seventh heaven.

Shannon

> *****
> Ah, well it's a good thing my cats can't read. I'll not tell them
> they're not supposed to eat "old" food and I certainly won't tell
them
> I'm supposed to be feeding them freshly killed food and I suspect
we'll
> continue to get by.
>
> Good to know though. Thank you.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (18)
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