Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 11839

There are 20 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Last nights disaster
From: cypressbunny
1b. Re: Last nights disaster
From: Marilyn Neil

2a. Re: cleanliness
From: Sandee Lee
2b. Re: cleanliness
From: Jennifer Scheytt
2c. Re: cleanliness
From: Michael Moore
2d. Re: cleanliness
From: havanese1@bellsouth.net
2e. Re: cleanliness
From: havanese1@bellsouth.net
2f. Re: cleanliness
From: havanese1@bellsouth.net
2g. Re: cleanliness
From: havanese1@bellsouth.net
2h. Re: cleanliness
From: ed_khang

3a. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: Sandee Lee
3b. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: cresco299
3c. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: pet.wellness
3d. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: A nervous newbie with some specific challenges
From: Sandee Lee

5.1. Re: itchy skin
From: lovingpetssdco
5.2. Re: itchy skin
From: Sandee Lee

6.1. Re: recreational bones
From: costrowski75

7. pawing at mouth after meals
From: outcats4@aol.com

8. How to introduce raw food to a kibble fed pup
From: Naomi Bjorgan

Messages
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1a. Re: Last nights disaster
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:53 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa Hope" <GreyhopeWeis@...>
wrote:
>
> Does anyone know how long it takes for this kibble rubbish to be
digested ??

*** Probably a bit longer for your crew since they aren't used to it,
but 1 or 2 days (at the most) should be the end of it.

Carrie

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Last nights disaster
Posted by: "Marilyn Neil" ems1classic@btinternet.com marilyn9751
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:08 am ((PDT))

When this happened to my sister lab (although fresh food) the vet suggested a bottle of cod liver oil, this helped enomously, the kibble basically slid through the gut without swelling.

Lisa Hope <GreyhopeWeis@hotmail.com> wrote: Hi Guys

I got home from work last night to find the hounds had raided the laundry
and I had a really old container of kibble (more than 3 years old), that I
had not thrown away, it was a plastic Pro Plan jug type container which
holds about 3 kg of in this case "crap in a bottle".

Phoebe looked as though she had eaten the whole container - she was huge, as
was Izzy, but Rowdy and Jorga looked as though they hadn't eaten any or at
least not much.

Now being weimaraners and prone to bloat I was in a panic with Phoebe, Izzy
being only 14 weeks old was not that much of a concern (poo will be nasty
for a few days though).

Phoeb and Rowdy haven't had kibble for at least 3 years and Jorja and Izzy
have never had it - ever !!

I obviously didn't feed all 4 last night, Izzy, Rowdy and Jorja all looked
normal this morning, but Phoeb still looked quiet full, I only gave them all
a very small breakfast, I don't know if I should have given Phoeb anything
at all, but me being me was fearful that if I didn't give her something to
eat she might eat anything she could (this girl in her life has consumed
some of the most amazing things - a bottle of Tar and Spot remover, a bottle
of Preen, you name it she has eaten it!!!)

There were a few yucky poos last night before bed, but Phoeb et al slept
soundly, but smelly gas was the order of the evening.

Does anyone know how long it takes for this kibble rubbish to be digested ??

Lisa
Greyhope Weis - Aust
http://www.users.bigpond.com/greyhopeweis
GreyhopeWeis@bigpond.com

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Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: cleanliness
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:13 pm ((PDT))

Dolores ,

You are far more likely to encounter germs from the mouth of a kibble fed
dog than you are from a dog fed raw. Germs and bacteria are
everywhere...feeding a raw diet really has little to do with sickness. The
bacteria you are worried about are found in the gut and stool of normal
healthy dogs and humans...so normal hygiene is sufficient regardless of what
is fed.

Let them clean themselves and groom when necessary for shows.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <havanese1@bellsouth.net>
>
> I have a question regarding cleanliness. We all know that raw meat has
germs
> that can make humans sick. When you feed raw to your dogs how do you care
for
> their beards, leg furnishings, etc. that get raw meat debris on them? I
have
> three Miniature Schnauzers and one Silky Terrier. I am getting another
Silky
> next week. I kiss them a lot and they are always in my face. I don't want
to
> get sick. These are not only my babies and sleep in bed with me, but they
are
> also show dogs. Show dogs need to have clean, healthy coats.

Messages in this topic (11)
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2b. Re: cleanliness
Posted by: "Jennifer Scheytt" jscheytt@yahoo.com jscheytt
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:02 pm ((PDT))

I have 3 bearded collies in full coat that I feed raw with no problems (and they have ALOT of hair). They keep themselves very clean and I don't do too much in the way of cleaning them. If they get a lot on their beards I will wipe them off, but that rarley happens. I definitly don't over bath them either. I show two of them and they get baths a few days before a show other than that they don't get bathed well unless they get really muddy at herding. I do not worry about getting sick from them either. They sleep with me sometimes and sit on the couch with me. The do not smell either. So I say jump in you and your dogs will be glad you did.
Jenny

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (11)
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2c. Re: cleanliness
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:04 pm ((PDT))

>> These are not only my babies and sleep in bed with me, but they are
also show dogs. Show dogs need to have clean, healthy coats. <<

Dolores -- there are a number of folks on the list who show their dogs, mine included (30+ yrs. showing; 6 yrs. rawfeeding). You may be pleasantly surprised at how clean your dogs keep themselves. If not, tie their furnishings up in rubber bands (the kind used for Shih Tzu or Poodle topknots) or wipe them off with white vinegar after they eat.
As regards to clean, healthy coats -- my dogs' coats are much fuller, plusher and "healthier" now than they were pre-raw. When I was showing Darcy, my latest champion, people repeatedly came up to ask what I "put on" her coat to get it so plush and shiny. I'd smile and tell them that it wasn't anything "put on" but what was put *in* -- her diet created the coat.

--Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio (where multiple champions also sleep on my bed....)

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Messages in this topic (11)
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2d. Re: cleanliness
Posted by: "havanese1@bellsouth.net" havanese1@bellsouth.net schnauzers1015
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:05 pm ((PDT))

> I keep a raw fed standard poodle in full coat. She does not make a
> mess of herself. I've got friends with standard schnauzers that feed
> raw and they don't have a problem with the beards. Most dogs will
> clean themselves off if it is necessary. I don't worry about germs my
> dog sleeps in my bed. On the off chance that her face or legs get
> dirty from really getting into her meal I will wipe them off with
> waterless shampoo

Thanx, I really appreciate your input.

Dolores

Messages in this topic (11)
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2e. Re: cleanliness
Posted by: "havanese1@bellsouth.net" havanese1@bellsouth.net schnauzers1015
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:37 pm ((PDT))

> Let them clean themselves and groom when necessary for shows.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang

Thanx. I guess I'm just getting too worried about nothing. When I fed raw almost ten years ago, we also fed fruits and veggies which made a mess in beards and furnishings. Now that I know I don't need the fruits and veggies for nutrition....raw has come so far! I have been reading everything available on this list and have learned a great deal...thank you all!

Dolores,
My Cousin Vinnie, Dolly, Mona, J. R. & soon to arrive Jazzy

Messages in this topic (11)
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2f. Re: cleanliness
Posted by: "havanese1@bellsouth.net" havanese1@bellsouth.net schnauzers1015
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:38 pm ((PDT))

> Let them clean themselves and groom when necessary for shows.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
Thanx. It's been a long time since I fed raw. Actually about ten years. When I was doing it, it seemed like no one else ws doing it and we were also adding veggies and fruits. I now know that there is a much better way and the fruits and veggies are not really needed for a balanced diet. I'm leaving for California in two weeks to visit my grandson and intend to start feeding raw as soon as I get back home to Florida. I am excited about feeding raw and having my dogs be in the best health and shape they can be. The 8 month old Silky puppy that is arriving next week has been fed raw since she starting eating whole food. I can not wait to see how she looks.

Again, thanx for all of the information. I have learned a great deal just by reading posts on this list.
Dolores

Messages in this topic (11)
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2g. Re: cleanliness
Posted by: "havanese1@bellsouth.net" havanese1@bellsouth.net schnauzers1015
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:40 pm ((PDT))

. So I say jump in you and your dogs will be glad you did.
> Jenny
>

Thanx Jenny.

I will be jumping in at the end of August when I get back from California. I'm going to see my grandson. When I get back to Florida and we (the dogs and me) are settled down I will start feeding raw.

Jazzy, the puppy that is arriving next week who is eight months old, has been eating raw since she started solid food. I can not wait to see her and get my hands on her.

Dolores

Messages in this topic (11)
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2h. Re: cleanliness
Posted by: "ed_khang" ed_khang@yahoo.com ed_khang
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:45 pm ((PDT))

That may be fine with a dog with a shedding coat, but I have a white
Havanese with long hair that does not shed. I have to wash her mouth
and face after every meal, otherwise it would remain bloody and
sticky. She is not a fastidious cleaner either. I use a small wash
cloth, saturate it with water, wipe her face, put a small bit of baby
shampoo, lather up the face a bit, then rinse off.

-Ed

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Scheytt <jscheytt@...> wrote:
>
>
> I have 3 bearded collies in full coat that I feed raw with no
problems (and they have ALOT of hair). They keep themselves very
clean and I don't do too much in the way of cleaning them. If they
get a lot on their beards I will wipe them off, but that rarley
happens. I definitly don't over bath them either. I show two of them
and they get baths a few days before a show other than that they don't
get bathed well unless they get really muddy at herding. I do not
worry about getting sick from them either. They sleep with me
sometimes and sit on the couch with me. The do not smell either. So
I say jump in you and your dogs will be glad you did.
> Jenny

Messages in this topic (11)
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3a. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:22 pm ((PDT))

Jeff,

There is no reason to tell them what you feed. They need to figure out what
is wrong with her without blaming it on diet!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "cresco299" <gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com>

There is an endless list of things she "could" have gotten into, but
It's all speculation. But you are correct, I just wanted some
"support" before I have my first confrontation with my vet about RAW
feeding.

Messages in this topic (8)
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3b. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:41 pm ((PDT))

> *** The fact that you feed raw need not come up. You could mention
> that she "got into" some raw chicken, or just say that you feed
> homemade. Some vets seize on diet as the cause and don't look any
> further. While raw *may* have something to do with this, though I
> doubt very much it does, be wary of a vet that hears the word "raw"
> and then makes a diagnosis without really looking at the animal in
> question.
>
> --Carrie

I'm back from the vets and unfortunately I'm minus my buddy! The vet
ran all the blood work, took x-rays and tested for pancreatitis but
every thing came back good with the exception that Sassy was extremely
dehydrated. She did vomit a few more times on the vet floor (Frothy
blood). At his urging, I left her there for the night to keep her
pumped full of fluids. So lets keep our fingers crossed. As I'm a
little bull headed, I felt the need to let him know that I was feeding
raw and his reaction was mixed. First, he let a little chuckle go and
mentioned something to the effect that as my dogs get older their
bones will fail because this diet is lacking calcium......Secondly he
mentioned with almost certainty that because I was feeding chicken he
would be seeing me again due to blockage or splintered bones.

What really got me though is when he started discussing how horrible
the meat is in the USA. And how no other country in the world is
willing to buy our beef. This is when I find out that he is a die
hard vegetarian. He mentioned that all that dog food that was
"tainted" a few months back was actually sold to pig farms for feed.
The pig farms are having to hold onto their pork until this tainted
food passes through their system, and when this happens a lot of pork
will be introduced into the market and pork prices will drop
drastically and be sold for human consumption and then people are
going to start getting sick. He ended by saying that basically as
long as Sassy is healthy, feed her whatever you want. But if you
really need to feed raw stick to only, the grass fed, organically
grown animals and stay away from chicken! DO NOT TRUST THE
COMMERCIALLY GROWN ANIMALS.

Is this guy crazy or is there in merit to what he's saying?

Jeff minus one :(

Messages in this topic (8)
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3c. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:12 pm ((PDT))

> What really got me though is when he started discussing how horrible
> the meat is in the USA. He ended by saying that basically as
> long as Sassy is healthy, feed her whatever you want. But if you
> really need to feed raw stick to only, the grass fed, organically
> grown animals and stay away from chicken! DO NOT TRUST THE
> COMMERCIALLY GROWN ANIMALS.
>
> Is this guy crazy or is there in merit to what he's saying?
>
> Jeff minus one :(
>
Thanks for the update. I'm so sorry this is unresolved for you
tonight. I don't know if the vet is crazy; I do agree with him. I
prefer grass fed, organically grown animals as they are available and
affordable. I don't trust commercially grown animals either. So I
guess I'm crazy too.

I'll think good thoughts for you and Sassy.
Kind regards,
Pamela

Messages in this topic (8)
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3d. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:42 pm ((PDT))

"cresco299" <gentry.jeffrey@...> wrote:
> As I'm a
> little bull headed, I felt the need to let him know that I was
feeding
> raw and his reaction was mixed.
*****
That'll learn ya! Nothing was gained from this revelation and now
you are doubting your choices. Feh I say!

> What really got me though is when he started discussing how
horrible
> the meat is in the USA. And how no other country in the world is
> willing to buy our beef. This is when I find out that he is a die
> hard vegetarian. He mentioned that all that dog food that was
> "tainted" a few months back was actually sold to pig farms for feed.
> The pig farms are having to hold onto their pork until this tainted
> food passes through their system, and when this happens a lot of
pork
> will be introduced into the market and pork prices will drop
> drastically and be sold for human consumption and then people are
> going to start getting sick.
*****
This pork stuff arose when the petfood recall was in the news and
there's no reason to assume this is going to happen. It's no less a
scare tactic than his comments about lack of calcium and bone
damage.

But if you
> really need to feed raw stick to only, the grass fed, organically
> grown animals and stay away from chicken! DO NOT TRUST THE
> COMMERCIALLY GROWN ANIMALS.
*****
Sure, but how convenient that he didn't mention these exist in--
dominate--fuel--the petfood industry. So if you cannot afford the
expense of grassfed meats, you are faced with a slow awful death from
meats sold for human consumption or from meats not fit for human
consumption...or you feed your carnivore a vegetarian diet.

Hmm. Sounds like he's been practicing the patter.

Yes, no question that grassfed meat and freerange poultry are what
your dog and you should be eating. Yes, if you can afford these you
should feed them.

But if you cannot, feed the best you can afford and don't worry. Be
on the lookout for grassfed meats, consider lamb and goat since both
are generally fully pasture-raised. But don't throw in the towel.

Truly, what choice do you have? Go back to kibble? Oh great. Feed
a vegetarian diet? I don't think so.

A vet who trades in guilt. What a guy.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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4a. Re: A nervous newbie with some specific challenges
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:29 pm ((PDT))

If you want to avoid him scarfing whole, you need to feed larger portions.
There is no need for him to even try to chew when you are cutting up the
food for him. You may be surprised what he will be able to handle with his
remaining teeth, but feeding small pieces that can be swallowed whole is not
the way to go. Especially turkey necks...they are just the right diameter
to get stuck and pose a choking hazard when they are cut up.

For now, I would start out with some nice chicken breasts...lots of meat,
easily digestible bones....and go from there. I doubt you need ground and
like you say, you want the tooth cleaning benefits.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (2)
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5.1. Re: itchy skin
Posted by: "lovingpetssdco" lovingpetssdco@yahoo.com lovingpetssdco
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:01 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

Can't think of anything edible except for whats topical maybe Vitamin
E (there has to be something a vet could suggest or nutrtionist could
suggest) or pure Aloe Vera gel. I hear that the Vitamin E gel inside
of the gel pills people can get in their vitamin aisles of grocery
stores helps, but only as a topical agent.

Anyone have suggestions?

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "LaUrA" <laurasue17@...> wrote:
>
> What could we add to our dogs diet to help with their itchy skin?
> Any suggestions would be great, thank you!
>
> Laura
> Proud Mommy to Miss Samantha (9 years old going on 16! LOL!!) and
step mom to Heather -17, Nikki - 14 and Michelle - 8 - the most
beautiful girls in the world!!!!!
> Mom to furbabies: Snoopy (male - neutered - 10 month old - pit mix
- 60lbs.) and Zoey (super smart hearing impaired female - spayed - 6
month old - pit mix - approx. 40lbs.)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (48)
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5.2. Re: itchy skin
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:30 pm ((PDT))

Yes, there have been many suggestions...more meat, more fat to begin with.
Most often an appropriate diet based on the prey model will solve this type
of problem without resorting to supplements. I don't know any vets and very
few nutritionists who have a clue how to adequately feed a carnivore!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "lovingpetssdco" <lovingpetssdco@yahoo.com>

Anyone have suggestions?

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "LaUrA" <laurasue17@...> wrote:
>
> What could we add to our dogs diet to help with their itchy skin?
> Any suggestions would be great, thank you!

Messages in this topic (48)
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6.1. Re: recreational bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:22 pm ((PDT))

Nathalie Poulin <poulin_nathalie@...> wrote:>
> > In fact, if you
> > are not feeding big, complicated, clumsy, awkward
> > and engrossing
> > meals that sort of require a day's recuperation
> > afterward,
>
> Chris, what kind of meal (meat-wise) would this be?
*****
Depends on the size of dog, no? Whole chickens, some hunkish thing
of turkey, lamb leg or shoulder or shank, pork shoulder or leg or raw
ham, goat or lamb section, whole rabbit, whole fish, beef neck, whole
duck, carcasses--the list is only limited by one's options. For a
small dog, "big" might be absurdly small when given to a large dog.

> How long do you let the dog eat for? Surely not the
> 15-20 minutes that some here recommend?
*****
If the dog is actively eating, I allow it eat til it's not actively
eating, or until the meal is gone. IMO, the only circumstance that
merits timing is the picky dog. A dog that is gainfully employed
should be allowed to eat as long as it wants to or has something to
eat.

Raw feeders who offer lovely, impossibly large (like "in your
dreams") body parts (or whole prey) might let the dog eat til it's
stuffed, or might collect up the meal after a certain amount has been
removed. I don't think it's about time, rather it's about progress.

> I'm curious because I would love to feed my dog
> something like that, that is so engrossing it takes a
> day to recuperate!
*****
<snicker>
It's probably not as hard as you make it out to be.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (35)
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7. pawing at mouth after meals
Posted by: "outcats4@aol.com" outcats4@aol.com barb5ducks
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:09 am ((PDT))

My dog has had allergies, and scratched his ears because they were infected
and face quite a bit. His ears are better, but now Ive noticed that after
each meal, he paws and paws at his snout. I cant see anything wrong with his
teeth from the outside -any ideas what this could be? Is it usually a tooth
problem ? This has been going on for a few weeks. Thanks for your help,
barb

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Messages in this topic (1)
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8. How to introduce raw food to a kibble fed pup
Posted by: "Naomi Bjorgan" ngbjorgan@gmail.com ngbjorgan
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:09 am ((PDT))

Hello,

How does one introduce raw food to a puppy? Should we start cold
turkey, or mix initially with kibble for a defined period of time? This
lab pup will be 2 1/2mos old when we get her and she has been on mom's
milk, then kibble.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Blessings,

Naomi

Messages in this topic (1)
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Feed Pets Raw Food

Wednesday, July 25, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11839

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