[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11833

There are 24 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com
1b. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
From: magolin0328

2a. Re: Scrapple
From: costrowski75

3a. The top 3
From: Mary
3b. Re: The top 3
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Slipper Elm Bark
From: Yasuko herron
4b. Re: Slipper Elm Bark
From: Giselle

5a. Feeding once a day
From: rocketblasther
5b. Re: Feeding once a day
From: cypressbunny
5c. Re: Feeding once a day
From: magolin0328

6a. Re: Looking for a raw co-op
From: havanese1@bellsouth.net

7a. Re: sources for salmonella, e.coli and other bacteria
From: cypressbunny

8a. canning raw meat-bone (whole chicken thighs) etc.
From: afurfriendzy
8b. Re: canning raw meat-bone (whole chicken thighs) etc.
From: cypressbunny

9a. Canine Nutrition
From: Chia
9b. Re: Canine Nutrition
From: Daisy Foxworth
9c. Re: Canine Nutrition
From: Chia
9d. Re: Canine Nutrition
From: deep_ocean_of_sorrow

10a. Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma
From: Carla
10b. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma
From: Giselle

11. INFO: Missing Pup in Dayton, OH
From: lils_danes

12a. Re: Weak pasturns-Vitamine C??
From: deep_ocean_of_sorrow

13. Dog weight loss - recommendations?
From: pelirojita

14. How many meals should a puppy have
From: lmustoe

Messages
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1a. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:23 am ((PDT))

Carol, where can I learn how to do this myself? Thanks! Tamatha :)

In a message dated 7/17/2007 12:13:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
carol.santangelo@gmail.com writes:

Just a thought...

Make sure who ever you leave your dogs with knows what to do in the event of
choking (ie. Doggie heimlich maneuver).

Carol

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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1b. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
Posted by: "magolin0328" maggie.taylor@artlover.com magolin0328
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:32 pm ((PDT))

I've always just packaged everything into meal sized portions and put
them in those sandwich sized Gladware type containers. Typically a
full one of those is a meal for Diesel. The boarding facility I took
him to was perfectly happy to feed that way.

My Dad took care of him for a few days while I was gone one
time...which led to a rather amusing conversation. Chicken quarters
and pork were on the menu and I told my Dad all he had to do was pick
any package out of the freezer, put the contents of it in Diesel's
metal pan and that he could leave it out for him because he likely
wouldn't eat with my dad around (he prefers attention over food). So
my Dad gave him chicken the first day and came back later that night
to take him out before bed time. He looked in the pan and was happy
to see Diesel had eaten, but wondered where the bones went. He
apparently searched my apartment for the better part of an hour trying
to find the bones. I guess he thought Diesel hid them somewhere.
Then he calls me asking where Diesel might hide things. I was
thoroughly confused, but had told him that if he didn't see a bully
stick out anywhere to just give him another one and that I didn't care
if he wound up giving him a new one each day. Diesel ended up with
about 10 in 3 days (most only lightly chewed) because he figured out
that my Dad would give him a new one if he begged for one. So then my
Dad starts asking about chicken bones which had me very confused.
"Where did the bones go?!" 'In the dog, Dad.' "What?! No, where
would he have hidden them??" 'Ummm? He ate them?' "Why would he do
that?" 'That's what dogs do? Don't worry about it...' It took me
about 10 minutes to convince my Dad that it was okay - good even -
that he didn't see bones because Diesel had eaten them. The next meal
he stuck around for and watched in total fascination as Diesel did, in
fact, consume the entire chicken quarter - bones and all. Then I got
another phone call about how fascinated he was by this.

Maggie
Diesel, SDIT

Messages in this topic (10)
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2a. Re: Scrapple
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:13 am ((PDT))

"Mary" <halle4@...> wrote:
>
> I see scrapple all over the place in butcher shops, is there any
value in it
> for our dogs?
*****
Cooked, no.

Uncooked and without grain or other ingredients (so that, in effect,
you are getting raw scrap pig parts that in the US are generally
considered unfit for human consumption except by the indigent and/or
frugal) there's no real different between scrapple and a bucket o'
guts. So you can feed that if you want to.

I rather think anything specifically identified as "scrapple" would
have been "reciped" in some way to justify the price.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. The top 3
Posted by: "Mary" halle4@comcast.net hallebest
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:19 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Can we find uncooked scrapple? Is it very common out there?

The top 3 is not a wish list but a list of what is most attainable that would take all around care that our dogs are getting what they need. (I forgot to say that organ meat is assumed to already be a part of their diet.)

Mary

----- Original Message -----
From: Giselle
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 4:02 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Scrapple

Hi, Mary!
Wiki says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrapple

Its a regional thing, OK for people that like it, but cooked, and not
appropriate for dogs.
This is a wish list? Or the most common affordable/obtainable?
top 3 - what I feed now
chicken
pork
beef

top 3 - wish list
rabbit
goat
lamb

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I see scrapple all over the place in butcher shops, is there any
value in it
> for our dogs?
>
> One other question if I may...what would you all recommend be the top 3
> meats (including fish) we feed our dogs if we could only get our
hands on 3?
>
> Will be interesting to hear, thanks!
>
>
> Mary Smallwood
> halle4@...
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: The top 3
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:14 am ((PDT))

"Mary" <halle4@...> wrote:
>> Can we find uncooked scrapple? Is it very common out there?
*****
I've never seen it uncooked; I've seen it processed and ready for the
frying pan (which is how I've ever eaten it) but even in its most "raw"
state I believe it's been fabricated and is not considered raw as we
know and love raw.

The top 3 is not a wish list but a list of what is most attainable
that would take all around care that our dogs are getting what they
need.
*****
That would be determined, ultimately, by the dog, don't you think? I
can tell you what I find most suitable for my dogs and my budget, but I
believe your question is best answered by: YMMV (your mileage may vary).

The further one feeds from whole species appropriate prey, the more
important variety becomes. I feel strongly that--in the big picture--
protein variety and body part variety work as a team to deliver the
nutrients a dogs/cats/ferrets require for bang up health. Short term
you have a huge amount of leeway so if you're trying to corral a "for
the time being" menu, beef, chicken and pork would suit unless the
dog's system disagrees.

I recommend you shop around to determine your best local options.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Slipper Elm Bark
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:00 am ((PDT))

>If I'm dosing a dog with SEBP, I will buy a small amount of ground chicken or turkey to use >just for this purpose. I feed the meatball(s) raw.

Hi,Giselle. Why you use ground chicken or ground Turkey is because less fattier than ground pork or ground lamb or ground beef,I guess?

you told me that when ground beef is cheap,you buy and make it freeze and feed with neck bone of pork but is it same to SEBP meatball cases too or you just mentioned for ordinal meal for feeding with neck?

And,one lady has mentioned that she hasheard from omeone that boiling with water/honey is due for not sticking to intestin and gum up or something.What is your opinion about that?

These coupledays,after feeding buffalo ribs to my dog,her poo is solid and see no problems but when she got gooey poo,and even if I add up more bone to meal and no helping, I think I get this powder thing because some people use and works great.

I still feeding Turkey or chicken or beef (the one that she can torelate very well ) with Lamb but it looks like she can handle Heart much better.I fed 1 oz of Turkey breast and 3 oz of Lamb heart but all pooo comes out solid unlike tongue or other lamb meat.Heart in general is less fattier?? I try feed heart sorely tomorrow and see how she does.

Maybe because of ribs,it helping a lot maybe too?

Yestreeday,she finished up Buffalo ribs in 50 minutes and ate all bones.

I really cannot underestimate little jaw!

yassy

---------------------------------
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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4b. Re: Slipper Elm Bark
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:35 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Yassy!
Ground chicken is generally blander, less likely to add to a
stomach upset and less fatty, too.

The ground beef I occasionally buy is just to add to the bony pork
neck bones to make a meal.

Well, to me, the purpose of dosing with SEBP is to line the entire
digestive system with the mucosy, slippery coating, to soothe and
lessen the irritation. Boiling it with water, or anything else to
eliminate that effect would be counterproductive to the usefulness of
it, I think.

Heart is generally very lean, unless you get the butcher to leave the
fat cap on.

The more bone you feed that is tolerated by your dog, the firmer the
stool is. Watch how much bone Palette is getting, each dog is unique,
but I think you want to keep her intake of edible bone to 10-15% of
the total diet.

Too, harder bones, like buffalo ribs, may cause tooth wear if not
tooth breakage if you feed them very frequently. For a little dog like
Palette, I would stick with softer, more easily edible bones, like
chicken, rabbit, pork neck bones, lamb breast/ribs, maybe turkey
bones. Fed in big portions, with the meat on, these bones will provide
teeth cleansing and chewing activity without the danger of tooth damage.
TC
Giselle with Bes in New Jersey

> Hi,Giselle. Why you use ground chicken or ground Turkey is because
less fattier than ground pork or ground lamb or ground beef,I guess?
>
> you told me that when ground beef is cheap, you buy and make it
freeze and feed with neck bone of pork but is it same to SEBP meatball
case too or you just mentioned for ordinary meal for feeding with neck?
>
> And, one lady has mentioned that she has heard from someone that
boiling with water/honey is due for not sticking to intestines and gum
up or something. What is your opinion about that?
>
> These couple days, after feeding buffalo ribs to my dog, her poo
is solid and see no problems but when she got gooey poo, and even if I
add up more bone to meal and no helping, I think I get this powder
thing because some people use and works great.
>
> I still feeding Turkey or chicken or beef (the one that she can
tolerate very well ) with Lamb but it looks like she can handle Heart
much better. I fed 1 oz of Turkey breast and 3 oz of Lamb heart but
all poo comes out solid unlike tongue or other lamb meat. Heart in
general is less fattier?? I try feed heart solely tomorrow and see how
she does.
>
> Maybe because of ribs, it helping a lot maybe too?
>
> Yesterday, she finished up Buffalo ribs in 50 minutes and ate all
bones.
>
> I really cannot underestimate little jaw!
>
> yassy

Messages in this topic (9)
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5a. Feeding once a day
Posted by: "rocketblasther" jforbes05@sbcglobal.net rocketblasther
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:04 am ((PDT))

I've been feeding my GSD one meal a day for about a week, but I'm a
little confused because I never seen her not finish a meal until now.
I'm giving her large meals to rip and tear, witch is fine but I don't
like the idea of her leaving food for another day. Should I reduce the
amount so that she could consume a whole meal at one sitting or should
I just roll with the flow? When she's leaves left over food it makes
me think that something is wrong with her or the food.....Any
thoughts, please?

Jim & Sara

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Feeding once a day
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:57 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rocketblasther" <jforbes05@...>
wrote:
>
> Should I reduce the
> amount so that she could consume a whole meal at one sitting or
should
> I just roll with the flow?

*** Roll with the flow. If she doesn't finish it, stick it in the
fridge for the next day.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Feeding once a day
Posted by: "magolin0328" maggie.taylor@artlover.com magolin0328
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:41 pm ((PDT))

Diesel rarely finishes all I give him in one meal. Going by body
weight he should eat around a pound a day, but I put down things like
whole chickens, whole 10lb pork shoulder roasts, etc. I let him eat
his fill then just cover it up with a plastic bag and put it in the
fridge until the next night. It takes over a week to finish those
10lb pork shoulder roasts.

Some days he'll eat 2+lbs and then he'll only have a bite or two or
nothing at all the next night or even two nights. Sometimes he'll
just eat about a pound a day without doing the gorge/fast thing for a
couple weeks. There doesn't seem to be a terribly predictable pattern
with him. In any event, he seems to keep himself at a healthy weight
so I pretty much just operate on the whole "if it ain't broke don't
fix it" idea at this point. I just offer whatever I decide is on the
menu for the night. He can eat however much or little he wants. If
he decides to be picky and doesn't want to eat I just keep offering it
until he eats it eventually.

Not eating much (or anything at all) for just a day, sometimes a
couple of days isn't really that big of a deal unless the dog isn't
healthy. A healthy dog won't starve itself.

Maggie
Diesel, SDIT

Should I reduce the
> amount so that she could consume a whole meal at one sitting or should
> I just roll with the flow? When she's leaves left over food it makes
> me think that something is wrong with her or the food.....Any
> thoughts, please?
>
> Jim & Sara

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Looking for a raw co-op
Posted by: "havanese1@bellsouth.net" havanese1@bellsouth.net schnauzers1015
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:05 am ((PDT))

I'm not really too sure what a food co-op is, maybe you can fill me in.
-Ed H

A food co-op is a group of people who order food in bulk from suppliers. By getting a group together you can order large amounts for less money. The food comes to a central location where the members of the group go to pick up their portions of the order.

Dolores
havanese1@bellsouth.net

Messages in this topic (7)
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7a. Re: sources for salmonella, e.coli and other bacteria
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:55 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, emil smolensky <esmolensky@...>
wrote:
>
> I don't really know the reasoning behind it. maybe she just wants to
win this arguement and she doesn't put much faith into real people.
She wants evidence from vets or biologists.

*** Rawfed.com is hosted by an environmental scientist and licensed
veterinary technician. The myths section was written by a zoologist.
The online book Chia recommended was written by a veterinarian.

Hey, wait a minute. Aren't those all real people too?

There is no rule that says you have to feed stinky meat, though. If
she doesn't want meat sitting in the fridge more than a couple of
days, that's fine. It is ok to feed only fresh meat!

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (6)
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8a. canning raw meat-bone (whole chicken thighs) etc.
Posted by: "afurfriendzy" afurfriendzy@yahoo.com afurfriendzy
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:42 pm ((PDT))

Can someone please advice on home canning raw meat and bones at home.
I'm wanting to do this in case the economy crashes and I cannot get
raw meat for my dogs.

I see info about canning just meat. They say to cut it up into one
inch thick peices - remove fat and sear first.

I cannot find anything about canning bone. In the past I've bought
canned whole chicken (whole bird) and the bone is super soft like a
can of sardines. Is this acheivable for a home canner in glass jars ?
Can I go ahead and can the whole thigh and at time of use if the bone
isn't soft toss it ? (hoping that the calcium will absorb into the
meat)

Also... Meat dehydration for later re-hydrating... for dogs.. Can I
dehydrate w/o soaking meat in salt water first (preservative) seal a
meal the meat and store it in a cupboard or would it HAVE to put in
the freezer ?

A BIG THANKS if anyone can help me. Feel free to email offlist.

Pam

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: canning raw meat-bone (whole chicken thighs) etc.
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:03 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "afurfriendzy" <afurfriendzy@...>
wrote:
>
> Can someone please advice on home canning raw meat and bones at
home.

*** http://www.montana.edu/wwwpb/pubs/mt9610.pdf

> Also... Meat dehydration for later re-hydrating... for dogs.. Can I
> dehydrate w/o soaking meat in salt water first (preservative) seal a
> meal the meat and store it in a cupboard or would it HAVE to put in
> the freezer ?

*** If it is strictly for dogs, yes, you can skip the salt. Salt
decreases the potential for bacteria surviving the dehydrating
process. Make sure the meat is very dry before sealing it. How long
your dried meat will last and how safe it is to eat depends on a whole
bunch of factors not on topic for a raw feeding list. Here are a
couple of places to start:
http://www.paleofood.com/jerky.htm
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/shaffer58.html
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/harvest/msg1223181731685.html

--Carrie

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9a. Canine Nutrition
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:44 pm ((PDT))

### found this in a file I had from a few years ago... typed it here...I
think, for those perhaps questioning or wondering, this may answer
many questions. Of course, there are many great articles...just thought one
more wouldn't hurt. Since my fingers were raring to type..I though..
why not?!!! Chia & Ricco (the handsomest carnivore there is...) ;-))

Feeding for Optimum Health and Longevity

The canine digestive system anatomy and physiology is that of a carnivore,
the most distinct characteristic being the voluminous stomach and shorter
intestinal length indicative of a carnivore to aid in rapid digestion of raw
meat. The entire anatomy of the dog is adapted for a raw meat diet. A
natural diet are the foods best suited to the dog. Although domestication
has changed their external appearance, and their behaviours somewhat, their
nutritional needs have not changed from those of their wild ancestors.

Among the many reason to avoid feeding commercial pet food, two predominate:
commercial foods are heat processed, thereby effectively destroying the
natural enzymes present in the ingredients and the fact that the vast
majority of pet foods are made with animal parts that have been determined
unfit for human consumption and have been treated with chemicals to ensure
they do not get back into the human food chain. Enzymes are an essential
aid in proper digestion of foods and supply the body with the energy needed
for such activities as the formation and elimination of urea and carbon
dioxide and other toxins from the kidneys, lungs, colon, liver, spleen and
skin created during the process of metabolism. Ingesting quantities of
contaminated and indigestible animal parts and plant material on a daily
basis cannot be considered conducive to good health. Studying carnivore
anatomy, physiology and eating habits show us that we are doing our domestic
friends a great disservice by not feeding the the way nature intended.

Carnivores have a simple hinge jaw that works in a scissoring/slicing
fashion rather than the rotational fashion of the herbivore and therefore do
not chew and cannot grind vegetables, grains and fruit. Their saliva is
acidic, of which they produce large amounts to lubricate the food bolus and
the esophagus for transport to the stomach, but do not produce the
carbohydrate digesting salivary enzymes necessary for the food to remain in
the mouth and be well-mixed with saliva as it is with the herbivore.

The carnivore stomach has a voluminous capacity and plays the largest role
in the digestive process (it makes up 60-70 percent of the total volume of
the digestive tract, the herbivore less then 30 percent)and is where the
majority of protein ie., meat, digestion takes place. Food stays in the
stomach for up to eight hours, as opposed to the herbivore's 2-3 hours.
This ensures the meat is well broken down before entering the intestinal
tract where toxins released by putrefying meat could be absorbed; it
secretes large amounts of hydrochloric acid (ten times more than the
herbivore) creating the highly acidic stomach environment necessary for
digesting meat protein and killing any dangerous bacteria that may have been
ingested. The carnivore small intestine is short (3-6 times body length)
compared to the herbivore at 10-12 times the body length.

Carnivores have a poorly developed sense of taste-smell is much more
important to them (the cat has 200 million scent cells to people's 5
million; the dog has 1,700 taste buds to people's 9,000).

The carnivore liver is large (the dog has the largest liver of all
animals)and produces uricase, an enzyme that breaks down uric acid. The
carnivore liver is capable of eliminating 10-15 times more uric acid than
the liver of the herbivore (meat digestion releases large amounts of uric
acid). The carnivore, in nature, sleeps an average of 18-21 out of 24 hours
in a day. The herbivore sleeps from 1-3 hours a day, eating (grazing)on a
continuous basis for the other 21-23 hours.

Carnivores, gorge themselves on their prey, swallowing large chunks of food
that we, as humans, would choke on; usually the organs are eaten first,
followed by the stomach and intestines. (contents shaken out first). This
is nature's way of ensuring a balanced diet by supplying important nutrients
by the carnivore, as well as the nutrients stored in organs that are not
found in the bones and muscle tissue. They will eat the whole carcass-skin,
hair and bones included-the extremely acidic stomach environment can digest
bones and skin, which bulks up the stool and protects the intestinal walls
from sharp objects such as fragments of bone (note: commercial foods do NOT
promote an acidic stomach environment). After gorging they will then sleep
off and on for up to 21 hours while digesting their meal.

Gorging ensures that the stomach gets fully exercised, and strengthened and
toned the way it is meant for proper functioning. Fasting is an important
carnivore behaviour, allowing for complete digestion of the raw meat protein
while allowing the stomach to be cleaned and completely emptied regularly.

Raw meat helps to maintain the acidic environment necessary for its
digestion and absorption of calcium from bones; thee acidic environment
stimulates the pancreas to produce its digestive enzymes-this maintains
pancreatic health and prevents atrophy of this important organ; the strong
digestive secretions allow very few parasites to get past the stomach. It
is important to note that cereals, ie., grains, are alkaline forming-this
means that commercial pet foods, which are cereal based do not nurture an
acidic stomach environment.

Cooking meat artificially semi digests it instead of allowing the stomach,
intestines and digestive enzymes being allowed to do so. This leaves these
organs improperly exercised and over a long period of time their ability to
function naturally and to cope with the work they were meant to do is
compromised, opening the door for the development of chronic health
concerns.

Cooking destroys many important nutrients and also the enzymes necessary for
all of the body's physiological functions. The body does not manufacture
enzymes, but in the absence of the enzymes obtained from raw food, the body
overworks its natural supply. This creates a strain on its enzyme reserve
which can impair and stress the functioning of all the major organ systems
of the body-leading to a state of disharmony and disease. Cooking causes
the amino acid chain found in meat protein to coagulate and become useless
and or/toxic to the body, increasing its burden to detoxify.

Cooking also depletes the vital high water content of natural foods.
Heating extracts the natural water and dries and concentrates the food;
water is critical for all functions, as well as storing the water-soluble
vitamins required by the body.

Cooked food passes through the digestive tract more slowly than raw food,
tending to putrefy and throw toxins back into the bloodstream; prolonged
intestinal toxemia may manifest itself in a myriad of disease symptoms,
including allergies and arthritis.

A raw meat diet prevents the formation of plaque on the teeth and the high
acidity of the oral cavity destroys any harmful bacteria before they have a
chance to contribute to periodontal disease. Periodontal disease has become
almost epidemic in our dogs today and plays a major role in the creation of
ill health in our pets.

The complex metabolic process of the body must be fuelled in a supporting
and vitalizing fashion, the way nature intended, in order for good health
and a disease-free state to be maintained. A natural, chemical-free diet
nurtures optimum health , and as concerned and loving pet guardians we owe
it to them to take a serious look at what an dhow we are currently feeding
them.

Warning: Not many if any Vets condone this. Hmmm... could it be because any
further vet visits due to malnourishment and improper feeding will
be eliminated?... Teeth cleaning? What's that? Remember, nature has always
known best. Food is medicine. As for us, and for animals. Feed a species
appropriate to how it's body is meant to eat and the outcome is vital health
and peace of mind that YOU are doing the VERY best for voiceless creatures
that depend on us to do the right thing, not always the easy thing.

Messages in this topic (4)
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9b. Re: Canine Nutrition
Posted by: "Daisy Foxworth" daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com daisyfoxworth
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:25 pm ((PDT))

Thanks, Chia. I have a couple questions for the group. A couple
points run counter to what I understood.

>
> The body does not manufacture
> enzymes, but in the absence of the enzymes obtained from raw food,
the body
> overworks its natural supply.

I assume that was a typo, that it should read "the body DOES
manufacture"... Even so, if a compound is too large it won't be
absorbed. Is there any substantiation that enzymes survive the
digestion process and are absorbed (and can the dog or cat make
internal use of a different species enzymes)?

>
> A raw meat diet prevents the formation of plaque on the teeth and
the high
> acidity of the oral cavity destroys any harmful bacteria before
they have a
> chance to contribute to periodontal disease.
>

A raw diet that does not include bone may not be nearly enough to
prevent periodontal disease. If it were, my cat's mouth would be
fine. It isn't.

Thanks, appreciate any info on these two points.

Daisy

Messages in this topic (4)
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9c. Re: Canine Nutrition
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:21 am ((PDT))

#### oopss... spell check doesn't catch words added or missing..
:-(( sorry...

Chia & Ricco
>
> The body does not manufacture
> enzymes, but in the absence of the enzymes obtained from raw food,
the body
> overworks its natural supply.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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9d. Re: Canine Nutrition
Posted by: "deep_ocean_of_sorrow" deep_ocean_of_sorrow@yahoo.com deep_ocean_of_sorrow
Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:56 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS, PLEASE!

First, i have some er... question-type things for this message.:

> Carnivores, gorge themselves on their prey, swallowing large chunks of
food
> that we, as humans, would choke on; usually the organs are eaten
first,
> followed by the stomach and intestines. (contents shaken out first).

I thought dogs can eat somewhat of vegetables and fruits?(most of the
times meat/bones, but sometimes some greens?) cooking vegetables may
make it easier for them to digest it, i thought... so is all veggies and
fruits to be avoided? surely they can't all be poisonous to dogs and
cats.

and so why do some dogs LIKE/LOVE carrots, figs, lettuce.. etc? i used
to give my dog (and still sometimes do) lettuce. he doesn't seem to like
the leaves, so we give the stem parts. but he only eats it sometimes. i
always thought that this has the same effect as the grass he eats in the
yard.. but most of the times, he doesn't vomit his food when he eats his
grass/lettuce. i see the grass in the stool sometimes, but not the
lettuce. other than that, his stool seems fine.

They will eat the whole carcass-skin,
> hair and bones included-the extremely acidic stomach environment can
digest
> bones and skin, which bulks up the stool and protects the intestinal
walls
> from sharp objects such as fragments of bone

i thought tha dogs/cats pluck off the feathers, fur, and hair of the
prey? i never seen a wild animal actually eating the fur of the prey...
or maybe i'm just wrong?

Messages in this topic (4)
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10a. Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma
Posted by: "Carla" Maiakitas@aol.com maiakitas
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:36 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

I have been feeding my Akitas raw since the first of July with no tummy upsets, thank
goodness, but some missed meals, which does not bother me. I have been now been able
to try a small variety of poultry, meats and fish and other "stuff" that all seem to agree
with the dogs.

I have frequently seen it mentioned on this list that it is fine to feed meat that is a little
"off." Well, my pea brain just figured out that my dog's missed meals were times that I was
giving meat that was not fresh and they will not touch it.

I have seen on the raw cat list that cats will generally only eat fresh meat, and Akitas in
general are pretty particular about what and how they eat, very much like cats.

Here is the question. I cannot tell you how much meat I have thrown out over the past few
weeks, but I am sure my trashman thinks I have killed someone and put their body in the
trashcan, but I can't quite figure out how to get into the swing of this so their meat is
always fresh. I have not purchased a freezer yet, because I have been waiting to see what
meats they like and don't like before I purchase in bulk, which actually does not seem to
be an issue, and also catch one on sale.

Any suggestions fellow raw feeders. Help me with these dang blasted picky and particular
Akitas. :o)

Regards,
Carla

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:54 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Carla!
My suggestions would be to separate and repackage your
purchases prior to freezing into meal size portions for each dog.
Obviously, I'd buy only what I could repackage and freeze right away,
so it wouldn't sit in the fridge and 'age'.

Also, I wouldn't thaw a bunch of meals ahead of time. I'd take out the
next day's meals and put in the fridge meat section to soften up, but
not thaw completely. Then, I'd feed partially frozen at meal time.

This should better allow you to judge each dog's capacity for a meal
without waste, so you can plan to increase or decrease the next
purchase when you portion it out.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
> I have frequently seen it mentioned on this list that it is fine to
feed meat that is a little
> "off." Well, my pea brain just figured out that my dog's missed
meals were times that I was
> giving meat that was not fresh and they will not touch it.
>
> I have seen on the raw cat list that cats will generally only eat
fresh meat, and Akitas in
> general are pretty particular about what and how they eat, very much
like cats.
>
> Here is the question. I cannot tell you how much meat I have thrown
out over the past few
> weeks, but I am sure my trash man thinks I have killed someone and
put their body in the
> trashcan, but I can't quite figure out how to get into the swing of
this so their meat is
> always fresh. I have not purchased a freezer yet, because I have
been waiting to see what
> meats they like and don't like before I purchase in bulk, which
actually does not seem to
> be an issue, and also catch one on sale.
>
> Any suggestions fellow raw feeders. Help me with these dang blasted
picky and particular
> Akitas. :o)
>
> Regards,
> Carla
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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11. INFO: Missing Pup in Dayton, OH
Posted by: "lils_danes" nickandnoel@aol.com lils_danes
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:04 pm ((PDT))

Please help, We had a pup come up missing from our kennel. None of the
other puppies were taken, but this little girl is gone. I will try to
post pictures, if not email me and I will respond with pictures of her

she is an 8 week old great dane, black and white.

937-648-9302
Lillian Jones

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: Weak pasturns-Vitamine C??
Posted by: "deep_ocean_of_sorrow" deep_ocean_of_sorrow@yahoo.com deep_ocean_of_sorrow
Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:52 am ((PDT))

there are capsules for pet vitamins, maybe you should go to your local
pet store to see if they have some?

your dog could be lacking in Vitamin E too. Vitamin E aids with
important body functions and is an antioxidant. it can help in fighting
disease too, and helps minimize the effects of pollution. it also helps
preserve vitamin A and fatty acids in other supplements in foods.

there can be mulitple vitamins for your dog too, at a local pet store. i
would go check them out too. but make sure you read the labels both the
front and back.

Kate
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
> Hello everyone.? I have an 8 month old Dogue de bordeaux who I has
been fed raw her whole life.? She seems to be growing up great on it,
but just in the last few weeks she looks a little weak on her pasturns
and her once very big tight feet, also look a little splayed.? This
could be me being very picky about a very pretty pup, but I was told
that this could happen if she is lacking Vitamine C.? I imagine she
could also just?be going through a growth spurt seeing that her but is
about 5 inches higher then her front right now! ;)? ?I have just started
really increasing variety, picked up my first co-op order today? with
all sorts of good stuff, but she has been getting chicken breasts,
chicken quarters, chicken organs, beef heart, lamb, beef trim, and
an??occasional trachea and canned salmon.? I now feed fish regularly.?
> Is there something I should be giving her in particular that is high
in Vitamone C?? Should I supplement with it for a while and see how she
does?? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!? Thanks in advance,
these groups are great!
>
> Chelsea
> www.bruinbordeaux.com
>
________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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13. Dog weight loss - recommendations?
Posted by: "pelirojita" kerrymurray7@gmail.com pelirojita
Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:53 am ((PDT))

Hello,

I've been feeding my dogs (80+lb golden, 44lb lab mix) raw for 3 weeks
and my lab mix has taken to it completely, I'm still feeling my way
with the golden.

My concern is my lab mix. He is significantly overweight due to a
variety of factors, most of which I have found a way to address
(getting him off kibble, not allowing him access to the thrown/dropped
food of the toddler, parrot, foster parrots etc., upping his
exercise), some of which have only just revealed themselves (I only
just caught him digging up the leftover food that my golden has been
burying which would explain why he hasn't dropped any weight the last
few weeks...greater vigilance has been applied).

So he is 44 lbs and should probably be more in the range of 35-37, so
significantly overweight at age 3, with bad knees to show for it.
Does anyone have an effective feeding routine in terms of content and
quantity for getting the weight off safely?

I have typically fed him whole chickens (or pork shoulder, or meaty
ribs), which a 2.8-3.0 lb chicken is enough food for him for 4 days
(at 2% ideal body weight/day, he typically finishes these meals in 2
days, so he starts the chicken one day, does not get fed the next,
finishes it on the 3rd and then does not eat on the 4th day.) My
questions are:

1 - should I take the skin off when I feed chicken in order to lower
the caloric content (poops have been fine, so he is tolerating the
whole bird well), or is the integrity of the "prey model" more
beneficial (he gets the giblets too)?
2 - is feeding every other day getting in the way of his weight loss,
since he seems to be more crafty in seeking out alternative food
sources on the non-feed days (this is a very smart dog, one who can
get in to cabinets, seek out toddler treats buried in diaper bags
etc.) - I thought that giving him a good work out with food "bigger
then his head" had its benefits (he loves digging in to the whole
chicken) but for weight loss is it better to feed smaller meals, more
frequently?
3 - what is a safe rate of weight loss? should I restrict his food to
less then 2% of ideal weight in order to get things moving in the
right direction? On the days when I only feed chicken quarters, he
polishes of his .7 lb of chicken rapidly and seems to still be hungry,
making runs at my other dog's food, so I haven't dropped below the 2%
threshold
4 - are certain meats/cuts better for weight loss then others?

Thanks in advance. This is list has been enormously helpful these
last 3 weeks and I must say, even as a vegetarian, I am enjoying
feeding my dogs raw much more than I thought I would.

Kerry
Tucson, AZ

Messages in this topic (1)
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14. How many meals should a puppy have
Posted by: "lmustoe" lmustoe@yahoo.co.uk lmustoe
Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:53 am ((PDT))

Hi All
My 9 week old puppy megan is doing really well on raw with no problems
yet thank goodness.My question is this how many meals should she have
per day as with the conventional dog food it is 4 meals per day but she
cant manage this on raw,and could i drop her down to 2 meals per day? i
have been reading your comments everyday and learning so much already
so a big thank you so far any comments/advice would be greatfully
recieved.
Many thanks
Lee

Messages in this topic (1)
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