[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11825

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Starved Stray Food Suggestions
From: Ash

2a. Re: new raw pup has pudding stools
From: Andrea

3a. question about bone meals
From: verrelli
3b. Re: question about bone meals
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: New to group/raw feeding and a few ?'s
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: teething and diarrhea
From: costrowski75
5b. Re: teething and diarrhea
From: Jen S

6a. Re: Regarding Fats and Oils
From: costrowski75
6b. Re: Regarding Fats and Oils
From: jeff wissler

7a. Re: Digest Number 11819
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: Slippery Elm bark
From: ginny wilken
8b. Re: Slippery Elm bark
From: Yasuko herron

9a. Re: Question: 8 week old puppy (Sambuca) need advice on next step
From: costrowski75

10a. Pancreatitis
From: therawretreat

11a. Re: Dogs normally gain weight after being on raw diet a while and lo
From: Sonja
11b. Re: Dogs normally gain weight after being on raw diet a while and lo
From: Yasuko herron

12a. soft stools
From: kovs74
12b. Re: soft stools
From: carnesbill

13a. cat gaining weight since i switched from rabbit to chicken
From: purvisp
13b. Re: cat gaining weight since i switched from rabbit to chicken
From: costrowski75

14a. Re: Sterilizing Crate
From: Laura Atkinson

15a. where do i feed the dogs
From: maradethc
15b. Re: where do i feed the dogs
From: mwood8402
15c. Re: where do i feed the dogs
From: Yasuko herron

16a. Re: adding new meats to diet
From: Katie

Messages
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1a. Re: Starved Stray Food Suggestions
Posted by: "Ash" want4rain@yahoo.com want4rain
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:05 am ((PDT))

fantastic!! we decided to name her Frances after St Francis. she has
gained 2lbs and is eating like a pig. she had an abscess cut on the
base of her tail thats doing wonderful on antibiotics. it was about
the size of a grape, had to be drained. i havent even posted her on
the IAR site for adoption and i already have several friends thinking
of adopting. *chuckles* i guess i have some great friends. two of them
are willing to feed raw prey model and the other is willing to feed
Wellness grain free. (hey, take what you can get right?? LOL) so we
will see where things go.

all in all she is up and playing and curious about the rest of the
house. i havent let her out of our hall/bathroom thats her place quite
yet. we have a very very busy house with a 8yo girl, 16mo old boy, a
dog and 3 cats who are upset about the dog and baby still. :)

thanks for asking! :)

-ashley

In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, woofwoofgrrl <cmc4lists1@...> wrote:
>
> I was hoping you'd let us know how the kitty is doing....
>
> Here's hoping the kitty is getting healthier by the day!
>
> Christine
>

Messages in this topic (14)
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2a. Re: new raw pup has pudding stools
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:06 am ((PDT))

My first move would be to back off how much food she eats a day.
Four days isn't a super long time for loose stools, but the clear
jelly might indicate some kind of intestinal parasite. Has she been
checked for worms? If reducing the amount of food doesn't work, you
should take a stool sample in for analysis. Let us know how it goes.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kovs74" <superflydaddyo@...>
wrote:
>
> ***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***
>
>
> HI I'm the proud papa of a 8 week old South African Boerboel named
> Nyah. I've been feeding her raw chicken for about 4 days now and she
> continues to have sloppy stool with clear jelly mixed in. Is this
> normal? I think I might be feeding her too much. I feed her 3 times
> a day, chicken thigh with back attached she does eat it all but I
> think the pieces are too big. Not sure on the weight amounts any
> help would be great thx.

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. question about bone meals
Posted by: "verrelli" ktverrelli@bellsouth.net verrelli
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:48 am ((PDT))

I have been giving chicken next to my smaller dogs and chicken back to
the big one (small ones are 18 lbs Scottish Terriers Big one is 65 lb
Giant Schnauzer)

I seem to read that maybe the chicken necks are too small? and I
should be giving chicken back to small dogs but those seem to be too
much for them should I cut it in 1/2 say length wise??

Kellie

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: question about bone meals
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:26 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "verrelli" <ktverrelli@...> wrote:
>
> I
> should be giving chicken back to small dogs but those seem to be too
> much for them should I cut it in 1/2 say length wise??

The 18 lb dog should be able to eat backs with no problem. When I got
my Great Dane puppy, he was 23 lbs and gobbled them right down.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: New to group/raw feeding and a few ?'s
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:51 am ((PDT))

"lou_losgatos" <lchandler@...> wrote:
> * are digestive enzymes necessary?
*****
Only if the dog's digestive ability indicates. In most cases, no.

* where do I get raw meaty bones small enough for my dachshunds? (10 &
> 13 lbs) Do I ask the butcher to cut smaller pieces for me?
*****
There are several experienced dachshund feeders on this list. I hope
some respond to your question; if not you can search the message
archives for their experiences. Here's how to join Yahoogroups so you
can access the Rawfeeding message archives:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

> * do the dogs need to eat only 1 protein source per week, or is that
> just the recommened way to get them started on a raw food diet?
*****
This is one recommended way to get them started (and the human as well)
but it's not required at any point. I mix meat proteins all the
time.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: teething and diarrhea
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:55 am ((PDT))

"Jen S" <jennilist@...> wrote:
> He did eat some chicken bones (I guess
> they're softer than other types), and yesterday his stool was normal,
but I
> want to give him variety while he is teething, I don't want to have
to feed
> him only chicken until he is past this.
*****
"This" doesn't last very long, so don't worry. If he eats chicken
bones, give him chicken for the bones and give him other boneless meats
for the protein variety. He's getting at least two meals a day, one
can be chicken parts and the other can be whatever you got lying around.

If you need to include bones both meals, try feeding a whole quail with
boneless meat. However, I would think one RMB meal a day should keep
his stools where you would prefer them to be.
C

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: teething and diarrhea
Posted by: "Jen S" jennilist@gmail.com bowiegirl1979
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:41 am ((PDT))

Thanks all! I'll try chicken at one meal and other stuff for the other
meal.

Jen

--
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
-Mahatma Gandhi

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Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Regarding Fats and Oils
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:02 am ((PDT))

jeff wissler <wisslewj@...> wrote:
> I would still strongly suggest making sure they are
> getting roughly 50% of their fats as good saturated
> ones though.
*****
While "good" may be arguable, how can a dog that only eats animal fats
NOT get saturated fats?

Chris O

Messages in this topic (24)
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6b. Re: Regarding Fats and Oils
Posted by: "jeff wissler" wisslewj@yahoo.com wisslewj
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:26 am ((PDT))

Chris,

well that was more for the people that cant get really
fatty cuts. Obviously if you are eating animal fats
you are getting the saturated ones.

However, if you must also feed grain lot beef, I think
it may be more beneficial in some instances to add
things like organic egg yolks and coconut oil in
greater excess and animal fat slightly less.

That way you get more of the saturated fats with less
of the omega 6's.

The preferred diet would be grassfed and wild animals
and nothing more. But, since that isnt available to
all, some modifications must be made. And the use of
coconut oil and yolks are a good sub for fat as they
are low (or have none in some instances) in omega 6
and eggs have good omega 3. Even Cod liver oil can be
used sparingly if it must to bring the omega ratio in
line.

However, given the studies that show that polys stay
in the body 600 days and the other one about dogs and
cancer on cod, I would make sure to not overdo and
make sure things like coconut oil are present to
mitigate damages.

Jeff

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Messages in this topic (24)
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7a. Re: Digest Number 11819
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:23 am ((PDT))

"Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>> Wiki says; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gizzard
> Some birds do swallow stones and grit, to facilitate digestion. But
> chicken gizzards are cut open and cleaned out during processing.
> Pretty much they *are sacks, they are technically stomachs.
> btw, I don't eat gizzards, but do like liver.
*****
Last night (and I do mean night) several, um, more earnest/crazy
members of our local buying group gathered to dress some 100+
chickens. The birds had not been fed for 12 hours prior to
execution; their crops were empty but most of the gizzards were
stuffed with bedding shavings they'd nibbled on in their last hours.
If there's no grit to git, the gizzards won't contain any. A chicken
fed meal without access to stones won't have any.

And yes, it's easy to empty the gizzards of stuff, whatever the stuff
is. Probably stones are easier than sawdust though.

IMO gizzards are no better or worse than store bought tripe or maws
but they're cheaper especially when they come stuck into the whole
bird.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Slippery Elm bark
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:30 am ((PDT))

On Jul 19, 2007, at 3:48 AM, Cdandp2@aol.com wrote:

> I mix two capfuls (or tsp of powder) into about a half cup water
> with a
> little honey and bring it to boil until it's a syrupy consistency
> then dose 2
> tsps of that syrup 2-3 times a day and it works like a dream (my
> dog is 25
> lbs...dosing depends on weight). Hope this helps.
> Carol & Spencer

Just curious; why do you add the honey?

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (7)
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8b. Re: Slippery Elm bark
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:25 am ((PDT))

>Just curious; why do you add the honey?

Hi,Ginny.I am guessing that adding honey will be either flavoring(elm taste bitter or something?Not sure) OR make the water to syrup consistency just like you make caramel with sugar and water although I do not know why it needs syruppy consistency though.

Well, Palette did poo at 1pm today,it was solid but half inch about was wet,color was brownish yellowish poo.

It just needed light wipe for butthole with paper towel but it was not messing fur.It considered ok poo I guess.

Today,I fed lamb tongue with chicken and out of the combo meal,I fed just 1 oz of Lamb tongue.I know that any animal's tongue is fattier than other boneless meat except shank maybe? But,she seems not being able to handle that little once of lamb tongue/lamb as much as she can for other meat.

I try again the same tomorrow and,see if it gets same result.

maybe,the result will be different if I try again months later but,so far,not very bad with combo but not as good either compare to other meat meal.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (7)
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9a. Re: Question: 8 week old puppy (Sambuca) need advice on next step
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:34 am ((PDT))

ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:
> I'm sorry to take up bandwidth with this, but I think maybe someone
> should point out that gizzards are perfectly fine muscle meat. This
> is far from "no nutritional value". They are not glands or organs,
> really, so don't have any of those "special" features, but they are
> still fine food, along with the rest of the darn chicken, from time
> to time.
*****
I don't see this as using up bandwidth.

Gizzards are not useless body parts, similarly they are not heroic body
parts. But they are body parts and one hardly has to go out of one's
way to acquire them. It would be silly not to feed them, under those
circumstances.

Chris O(

Messages in this topic (5)
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10a. Pancreatitis
Posted by: "therawretreat" therawretreat@mac.com therawretreat
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:39 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES PLEASE.***

I've been reading along off and on for about a month...

We have two Tibetian Terriers. We fed them a raw diet for about two years, stopping about
two years ago.

One of our dogs pulled a pound of raw butter off the counter, and they devoured the
whole thing. One dog got diarrhea - just what I would expect - but the other went into
pancreatic shock.

We took him to the clinic where they gave him lots of tests - of course - and then put him
on fluids for a day. They gave us some pills to manage the pain and for some other now
forgotten things.

Ever since that incident, he has been VERY sensitive to fat. Feeding him raw meat
produced and produces severe diarrhea. We went back to the kibble diet with occasional
raw meat.

He has since developed Lupus and a low thyroid condition.

I'm a raw vegan. I get totally understand that he needs to be eating a raw diet.

What I haven't been able to get past is the diarrhea. If it were a human, I'd say they were
getting the nutrition they need, so the body has started to eliminate it's toxic load. I'd say
that this unpleasant situation will pass. And stay close to the toilet!

The only strategy I can come up with is to transition very slowly.

Has anyone else out there experienced anything similar? And navigated through it
successfully?

Messages in this topic (14)
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11a. Re: Dogs normally gain weight after being on raw diet a while and lo
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:42 am ((PDT))

Laurie,

I'm glad you mentioned that others had noticed that their dogs "lost" weight only to find out they've gained. Our lab is (was) 55 lbs and can't stand to lose a pound (we keep her lean). My husband became concerned because she appeared to be losing weight, so he took her to the vet to weigh her and she came up at 58 pounds! She still looks too lean, so we'll be putting a little more weight on her until she looks normal to us.

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (8)
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11b. Re: Dogs normally gain weight after being on raw diet a while and lo
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:25 am ((PDT))

>Just a thought--scales are different and can be "off."

Hi,Laurie. Well,I did not think about it until you say that to me. we have digital scale at home for us to weigh ourselves so,I can check it again when my husband is around because I can simply deduct my husband's weight from combo weight.and yes,las time when we were there for microtipping,months ago,maybe March or April this year,she weighed 30lb and was told she is bit overweight.

If it was again the same weight;34lb with home scale then,I should reduce feeding amount?

I thought about maybe just like humans,dog can be thick bone dogs and actually what I see in her could be fine.

As long as I see tuck in tummy and nice waist and not to wabbly around rib area,do you consider ok looking?? Do you believe what you see or do you use scale number as guide more than looking?

If she got puffy big belly dog with lots of zingle around skin,then,I definitely worry and if she got bony looking,then,I would worry too but since right now,she looks ok to me but scale tells me (at least vet office one) she gained 4 lbs,then, if the number going up,I thought i should do something.

Just some thinking..

thanks

yassy

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Messages in this topic (8)
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12a. soft stools
Posted by: "kovs74" superflydaddyo@hotmail.com kovs74
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:44 am ((PDT))

Hi my 8 week old puppy has been on raw chicken for about 5 days now
and she still has soft stools. I've tried smaller meals 3 times a day
and I've also tried larger meals ie whole thigh with back attatched.
Maybe I'm not giving it enough time but I'm concerned she isnt
absorbing any nutrients. Am I over reacting? How much weight do puppys
gain on average?
Thank you
Jamie

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: soft stools
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:25 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kovs74" <superflydaddyo@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi my 8 week old puppy has been on raw chicken for about 5 days
now
> and she still has soft stools.

Try feeding less and remove the skin and fat. I always suggest
feeding nothing but chicken backs the first week of raw and rarely
have any dogs I've helped had any problems. At that age, 3 meals a
day is recommended. I would also lower the overall volume of food.

As to puppy weight gain, it depends mostly on the breed. Great Dane
puppies often weigh 90lbs at 9 months of age. Most dogs don't reach
that in a lifetime.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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13a. cat gaining weight since i switched from rabbit to chicken
Posted by: "purvisp" purvisp@yahoo.com purvisp
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:46 am ((PDT))

whoa! my bengal cat is gaining tons of weight. it seems to have
occurred since I switched him from rabbit to chicken. is chicken much
more caloric than rabbit?

Patricia

Messages in this topic (2)
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13b. Re: cat gaining weight since i switched from rabbit to chicken
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:29 am ((PDT))

"purvisp" <purvisp@...> wrote:
>
> whoa! my bengal cat is gaining tons of weight. it seems to have
> occurred since I switched him from rabbit to chicken. is chicken
much
> more caloric than rabbit?
*****
Rabbit is generally leaner than chicken, depending of course of what
chicken parts you are feeding and whatever else is on the menu.
Chris o

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14a. Re: Sterilizing Crate
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:20 am ((PDT))

After a particularly messy/smelly meal, a spritz with white vinegar
and a swipe with a clean cloth may be useful.

But, for the most part, I let the dogs do their own KP. I frequently
go looking for a dog (usually Frosty) and find that she's busy
cleaning crates.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com

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15a. where do i feed the dogs
Posted by: "maradethc" maradethc@yahoo.com maradethc
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:25 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

Hi I have a question? Where do you feed your dogs the raw food. Its
making a big mess on the porch.
And one of my dogs wont eat the raw chicken...what do you think i
should do. my other 2 dogs love it
thanks

Messages in this topic (3)
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15b. Re: where do i feed the dogs
Posted by: "mwood8402" mwood8402@hotmail.com mwood8402
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:50 am ((PDT))

I feed mine in the kitchen on a piece of an old vinyl table cover. I
like it because it's really easy to clean.

If your dog just doesn't like chicken, you don't have to make him eat
it. Does he like other meats? How long have you been feeding raw?

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "maradethc" <maradethc@...> wrote:
> Hi I have a question? Where do you feed your dogs the raw food. And
one of my dogs wont eat the raw chicken...what do you think i
> should do. my other 2 dogs love it
> thanks
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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15c. Re: where do i feed the dogs
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:25 am ((PDT))

> Where do you feed your dogs the raw food.

Hi.I know some people feed inside the crate,some feed outside,some inside the house with towel on the floor.

Personally,I chose kitchen;non carpet area,and I place water resistance shower curtain 70"x72" on floor,and since the kitchen is next to living room,I section off the area with straightened puppy pen panels so that my dog not going to trott out with raw meat.

I let her sit on the curtain and I place the meat and she eat on it.Since she is Corgi,that curtain size is more than enough to bring meat to here and there and choose where she likes to eat (of course on the curtain area),and she sometimes eat meal "settle posture" or "super-man" posture and so relaxed to eat meal.

After the meal,I let her lick curtain to her content and,she is out from curtain area and come back to me so,I just wipe the meat taching area with 50 vinegar 50 water solution dabbing onto the paper towel.

Egg or organ meat like liver,I feed inside the bowl though.

It really not messy for me this way.

So,I just keep wiping that way a week and then,wash the shower curtain with washing machine and hang it to dry.

To let the dog get to eat meat,try quick searing and hot temp wil bring more smell so,it is more likely dog wants to eat it.

Then,less and less you sear the meat and some point time,you get to feed raw meat.

Maybe bland flavor with different texture of meat could get the dog off so,it should help.

If not searing,then,you can put the meat in zip bag and place it into warm water and let the meat temp up.warming can also help,I hear.

If those did not help,you can quick sear with some flavoring like tiny bit of garlic powder,or sear with butter or something.Flavoring can help too.

Or,you offer the same thing till the dog get to eat and if the dog not to eat it,let them be hungry and some point time,the dog get to eat.

Hope it helps.

you can find this topic in past postings too.It has been on this list now and then.

yassy

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16a. Re: adding new meats to diet
Posted by: "Katie" kcrockett@mac.com kcrockettla7
Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

Thanks, Andrea.

I'm finding that when I give Tonka (golden) a lamb shank, he eats most of the bone - he eats
the thicker part. The thinner part of the post usually gets stolen by my little schipperke
foster,who will chew on it for a little whil, until I take it away. It seems to ahve sharp edges
(which is why I take it away).

Katie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:

>
> As for lamb shanks, my boys eat every bit of a lamb. The bones are quite edible for even
> medium sized dogs. The only time I avoid lamb bones is if they have been cut into sharp
> little chop sized pieces.

Messages in this topic (7)
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