[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11817

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
From: Carol Santangelo
1b. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
From: sanikamjoshi

2a. Re: Update:effect of raw diet on arthritis
From: wdlady1

3a. Re: tilapia and bonita
From: Yasuko herron

4.1. New Member
From: wdlady1

5a. Re: supplement w/digestive enzymes?
From: tottime47

6a. Re: Kidney problems and raw
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: butcher cuts?
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: butcher cuts?
From: Pi
7c. Re: butcher cuts?
From: costrowski75
7d. Re: Chicken backs / fat
From: gevan1a
7e. Re: Chicken backs / fat
From: costrowski75
7f. Re: Chicken backs / fat
From: gevan1a

8a. Slippery Elm brak
From: Yasuko herron
8b. Re: Slippery Elm brak
From: ginny wilken
8c. Re: Slippery Elm brak
From: Giselle

9a. Re: 80/10/10?
From: Laura Atkinson
9b. Re: 80/10/10?
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Thanks Giselle for tips on getting meat supplies!
From: creativevazquez
10b. Re: Thanks Giselle for tips on getting meat supplies!
From: Giselle

11a. Re: Lamb
From: Yasuko herron

12. Help me, help the butcher!
From: cresco299

13a. An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
From: susan/foxfire
13b. Re: An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
From: bluegracepwd

14a. Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
From: deep_ocean_of_sorrow

Messages
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1a. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
Posted by: "Carol Santangelo" carol.santangelo@gmail.com santangelo_carol
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:11 am ((PDT))

Just a thought...

Make sure who ever you leave your dogs with knows what to do in the event of
choking (ie. Doggie heimlich maneuver).

Carol

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Messages in this topic (8)
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1b. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
Posted by: "sanikamjoshi" Sanibonn18@aol.com sanikamjoshi
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:22 am ((PDT))

Hi Jenna,

I was just out of town for 2 weeks, I have only been feeding my dogs
raw for 2 months and did not want to break their habits now.

I too, ziplock bagged everything and put labels/sharpie with name and
the date it was to be fed so there would be no confusion or
hesitation. And because if the neurotic person that I am, I arranged
everything in chronological order with the food the would be eating
first at the front.

The kid that came to our house to care for them had no problems what
so ever. The dogs were happy and healthy upon my return.

Don't stress, enjoy your weekend away!

Sanika & Group

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I was wondering what dog owners on this list do when they have to
leave
> > for vacation as far as feeding. I am leaving my two small dogs
with
> > their breeder who does at this time not feed raw. I want to make
> > feeding my dogs easy on her. I know commercial raw diets are not
> > endorsed on this list but what is the opinion if it is just for a
few
> > days?
> > Jenna
> >
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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2a. Re: Update:effect of raw diet on arthritis
Posted by: "wdlady1" 4reptiles@gmail.com wdlady1
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:53 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: WELCOME! PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

--
Thank for your positive update. I am going to introduce myself right
after this. I am so happy for you I just jumped of the fence 2 weeks
ago too. SO looks like we are at about the came time frame. Look for
my intro post for my story.

Janine
hannabee & Kazan
- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, a.flynn@... wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Just had to write and let everyone know how my old girl (13 yo lab
x) is getting on with her new raw diet and no arthritis medication.
>
> It's been a bit over 2 weeks now and the difference really is
amazingly good and after such a short time! I already raved about her
clean teeth and breath in my post a week ago.
>
> Another week on, and her eyes are noticably much brighter, she is
wagging her tail a lot, she is more keen to go for her walk and is
walking faster when out on her walk than usual. (She could barely
stand up, let alone go for her walk when on a break between
medications recently)
>
> My son (8) who helped me research the diet on the net and is
watching the progress, excitedly ran in yesterday to tell me that
Jessie was cleaning her backside! May seem like a strange thing to
get excited about, but honestly she has been too stiff for the past
year or so to bend around to do this, so we are very excited!!
>
> It is the middle of winter here (Australia) so I was concerned at
first how she would go without the medication but I was keen to see
clearly the effect of the diet alone, and I am so pleased we gave it
a go. Seems to me that she may not need the medication at all for
now. She absolutely loves her raw food and if she died tomorrow, I
would feel better that she has at least had these happier weeks.
>
> I so much wish I had found out sooner how bad canned and kibbled
junk is for them.
>
> If any one reading this is sitting on the fence about doing the raw
thing with your dogs....I would say just do it...dive right in and
give your dogs what nature intended. They will be so much happier.
>
> Cheers, Ann.
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: tilapia and bonita
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:55 am ((PDT))

> Many dogs refuse to eat tilapia.

Hi. My dog really hated catfish,turns the nose up and looking sideways and don't look at fish on floor.It was not so for tilapia,and she ate it but after 2 hours from meal,she started whiny at entrance door and as soon as the door opened,she did dashed to lawn and did big watery green goo. and It was not just one time pooping time and it was about 2-3 times that day and it was so miserable.

I did quick butt bath for her,and kept her butt clean but, I am not feeding Tilapia anymore.

If it was beef or other protin,I still could try other way to let her eat and digest better like feeding from very small amount ,but since fish, and has so many different kinds of fish available at counter although some come with fillet,I did not forced her to eat catfish and did not try tilapia again.

I read here and there that dog refuse to eat tilapia too.

I myself love tilapia and it has real mild flavor and so meaty white fish and even fish-hater;my husband can eat it and ask for more,so,IF your dog did not like Tilapia or you got same result to mine,then cook it for yourself.it is very tasty fish and,it was especially good in Yellow Thai Curry (Iused Tilapia instead of chicken or other meats).

As for Bonita,if your dog did not eat it or did not digest well and think about not feeding it next time,if you could find way to dry it,then you can dry whole Bonita fish and then, grate it and use some for Dashi making;I guess people here call fish stock?? You take the shredded bonita out from broth later but it makes nice flavoring. We Japanese call "Katsuo Bushi" and use it to make dashi mostly but you can grate over Chilled Tofu with Soysauce.Little piece goes long away too.

And,today was my dog's fish day so,I fed Squid.It was Frozen packaged Squid from grocerystore and 3 whole squid (From US to be caught) and cost me about 4 dollars so,1 squid was about 1 dollars.Not bad. I washed off squid innk and took out the cartlidge and fed 1 squid today.

My dog went nuts and,ate it tentacles too so fast! Maybe not tasting much:-P

If she did not do gooey poo,I would feed it again.I know that it is already 2 hours passsed from morning meal time so,I do not think I would have problems like the time with Tilapia though.

Tomorrow,I going to feed Perch fish (I myself never had it but looks meaty fish).

I usually pick up whatever on sale and the one usually don't see at counter and stock up.
I buy 1 lb or less for just in case of palette does not like it and we too not liking it.

I have fed Scallop,Shrimp,Snappers,MahiMahi,Halibut, Cod, Squid(Today), Flounders etc..

My dog liked canned Clam,canned crab too not just canned Salmon,canned Mackarrel,canned Sardine.

Herring in saltedwater package was very very problems even if I wash it under the water so,better not to buy it.

Hope it helps, just an example of waht I have fed so far..

yassy

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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4.1. New Member
Posted by: "wdlady1" 4reptiles@gmail.com wdlady1
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:55 am ((PDT))

HI,

I will try to be as short as possible. I am new here, my name is
Janine and I have 2 Akita's (Hannabee-female, Kazan-Male). I started
feeding raw two weeks ago. I also sometimes feed Essex Cottage Farms,
A mix that you add eggs, 2 cups of greens,carrots, apples.You can
feed this raw of baked. I baked it for the first 2 weeks but now I am
starting to give it raw.

This all started two weeks ago. My male had desided to barley eat his
breakfast(not normal). He would have to have tuna or something on it.
I took him to the vet. CHecked teeth, blood work,and urine ect. $350
later and my do is the same. The blood results said creatinine was up
slightly. range 40-159 he was 161. all other kidney markers fine, all
blood work excellent. This bothered me, if you don't know by the time
kidneys show in blood work they are 75% gone. So it was too close for
me. They said they were only slightly elevated, but because
everything else was fine watch and see!!!

So that night I started to feed homecooked. My male is excellent,
eats every meal, sleeps better, happier, teeth better I could go on.

Can't wait to meet everyone
janine
hannabee & kazan

Messages in this topic (109)
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5a. Re: supplement w/digestive enzymes?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:55 am ((PDT))

Hi Monica,

Here's some of the comments from different people I found in the past
posts.
From what they say she needs enzyme supplements and a low fat raw
diet.....
You need to do some investigating and find out what besides rabbit
(very low fat)you can feed her........

Comments:

1-Putting her on enzymes helped almost immediately with her weight
and her hair loss.

2-Nothing worked for this
girl but a low fat low fiber diet and the magic diet for her was
rabbit - raw whole carcass ground. fur and all.

3-Also, be observant of your dogs' fat intake.
I know that dogs with
pancreatic issues have a hard time digesting fat.

4-I feed
relatively lean meat (beef tongue is GREAT, turkey, cutting fat
chunks off of beef heart and chicken, no issues with organs).
Because dogs need fat, I supplement with a little whole yogurt and/or
kefir a couple times a week (medium -chain tryglycerides are easier
to digest), along with daily fish oil.

5-My dog
will hork up a big tripe meal, or too many chicken feet - I think
they poke his insides - or a large meal of anything - but not every
time. So it's not exclusively ground or big pieces, but mostly the
amount, and the time taken eating it - longer is better.

6-In pancreatic insufficiency, the nutrients in food are passed out
in the feces undigested. An animal with this disease often has a
ravenous appetite, diarrhea, and weight loss. Even though he is
eating, he could literally starve to death. Treatment for pancreatic
insufficiency is lifelong, but is possible. The pet's digestive
enzymes are replaced through a product processed from pancreases of
hogs and cattle which contain large quantities of the digestive
enzymes. A change in diet with added nutritional supplements may also
be necessary.

Hope some of this helps,

Carol, Charkee & Moli

=============
--I've already removed the skin off the chicken quarter and it has
not helped.
If I remove the bone and just feed chicken, he gets horrible
diarrhea. I
can't go smaller than a chicken quarter or he'll gulp it down. I am
at a
loss.

Thanks

Monica and Loki

Messages in this topic (10)
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6a. Re: Kidney problems and raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:05 am ((PDT))

Hi Taylor,

Look back at this message where you will find all the info you need protein
and kidneys.....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/114796

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "musiquedelanuit" <taylor.lhb@hotmail.com>

I have been talking to my Dad about feeding raw for a few months now
and I have all but convinced him that it's the way to go. The problem
is that his Golden Retrievers was poisoned during the recent pet-food
recall and his kidneys were severely damaged. As a result, his vet put
him on a Royal Canin low protein diet. My Dad is afraid to start
feeding raw because he feels that it is too high in protein and would
be a dangerous chance to take with a sick dog.

I know a raw diet would be beneficial, but I don't know what to say to
him to convince him. Does anyone have aditional information on this
topic? What should I tell him?

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: butcher cuts?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:09 am ((PDT))

"melaniearles" <SibeMaya@...> wrote:
>
>> What do you mean by fat trim? Do you take off the skin from
chickens
> or something and just put it in the dog's meal? I'm wondering
because
> I too feed through lean meats and haven't really been sure of what to
> do to provide them so fat.
*****
What you suspect.
Fat that I acquire separately or fat that I myself trim from meat.

I don't take skin off chickens; however last century when I was
starting out I would pull the fat globs off chicken backs and because
any day I just KNEW I would make chopped chicken liver I saved them
(not bad enough I was relying on chicken backs, not bad enough I was
also de-fatting them but then to SAVE the fat, oh my!). I did not add
the chicken fat to lean meats because I was too dumb to but you
certainly can and should if the meats you offer are generally lean.
You can do the same with skin if you want.

I typically feed beef fat but since pork is so generous with it I also
use pork fat trim. Whatever you got, use.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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7b. Re: butcher cuts?
Posted by: "Pi" scribblekitten@yahoo.com scribblekitten
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

costrowski75 wrote:
> I think there are more broadly useful pork body parts.
> ....
>
> My dogs also get a goodly amount of dietary fat, and when I am
> feeding through lean meat like emu or venison I absolutely will add
> fat trim to the meals. The concept ain't lost on me, I promise!
> Chris O
>
>
Hehe I wasn't correcting you ro arguing in any way, jsut rambling on in
the way I do :) As I said I can't find pork belly anyway, I just
wondered about it because I like it myself, whether it'd be a good thing
for him. I just won't be sharing it with him when I find some now... :P

-Anna +Pi +SunshineKitty

Messages in this topic (15)
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7c. Re: butcher cuts?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:56 am ((PDT))

Pi <scribblekitten@...> wrote:
>As I said I can't find pork belly anyway, I just
> wondered about it because I like it myself, whether it'd be a good
thing
> for him. I just won't be sharing it with him when I find some
now... :P
*****
Yeah, like me and baby back ribs when I can afford them! My dogs can
just get their own.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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7d. Re: Chicken backs / fat
Posted by: "gevan1a" gevans@sycomtech.com gevan1a
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:21 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:

> (not bad enough I was relying on chicken backs, not bad enough I was
> also de-fatting them but then to SAVE the fat, oh my!).

> Chris O
>

I'm new and not sure I understand...........

Are chicken backs ok as a primary source of meat? Should the organs be
removed? the fat?

-George E

Messages in this topic (15)
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7e. Re: Chicken backs / fat
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:56 am ((PDT))

"gevan1a" <gevans@...> wrote:
> I'm new and not sure I understand...........
>
> Are chicken backs ok as a primary source of meat?
*****
No they are not. They don't have enough meat to be considered a
primary source of it.

They can be considered a primary source of bone though because they
are mostly bone. If you are relying on chicken backs for meat, you
are doing your dog an injustice. Add meat to the menu.

Short haul, most anything's doable. Long haul, your dog's diet
should be lots more meat and lots less bone.

Should the organs be
> removed? the fat?
*****
The bits of kidney stuck to a chicken back should be fed; they are
not likely to be enough to produce digestive distress. Whenever you
can feed attached organs, feed them.

Fat might have to be reduced for beginning dogs if their tummies
aren't quite up to the challenge of "too much". Experienced,
otherwise healthy dogs generally do not have problems with menu fat.

Don't remove fat unless you have to. Fat is important for chubby
dogs as well, so if you are inclined to remove fat for weight
control, leave at least some.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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7f. Re: Chicken backs / fat
Posted by: "gevan1a" gevans@sycomtech.com gevan1a
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:33 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "gevan1a" <gevans@> wrote:
> > I'm new and not sure I understand...........
> >
> > Are chicken backs ok as a primary source of meat?
> *****
> No they are not. They don't have enough meat to be considered a
> primary source of it.
>
> They can be considered a primary source of bone though because they
> are mostly bone. If you are relying on chicken backs for meat, you
> are doing your dog an injustice. Add meat to the menu.

Thanks so much for the insight. Think I'll pickup some leg quarters on
the way home tonight.

-George E

Messages in this topic (15)
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8a. Slippery Elm brak
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

Hi, after having problems with Lamb feeding with my dog,I started wondering about Slippery Elm.I know that when somebody's dogs get gutt problems,often times,Slippery Elms/probiotic are recommended to feed with meal.

Slippery Elm bark is explained as..

Nature's Herbs Wild Countryside Slippery Elm Inner Bark. For safe, temporary relief of minor discomfort and protection of irritated areas in sore throat, sore mouth, coughs due to irritated throat, and to help soothe and relive irritation of influenced mucous membranes in the stomach and intestinal tract. Our exclusive FreshCare System inhibits normal plant oxidation, maintaining product potency and extending freshness. It includes all-natural antioxidants in each capsule, oxygen-absorbing packets in each bottle, special air-tight seals and amber glass packaging for uncompromised quality.

And,the one I found at web look like for human and it is with capsules.

These are what you all are using?

Probiotic is used for diarrhea treatment or preventing them during the switch and main ingredients are acidphil something that found in Yogurt and give good friendly bacteria in the gutt.

What these Slippery Elms do? It says soothing the intestine but which of the two are beter to dogs?It may depends on indivisual dogs too but.. in general?

I was curious.

thank you

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Slippery Elm brak
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:02 pm ((PDT))

On Jul 17, 2007, at 10:01 AM, Yasuko herron wrote:

>
> Nature's Herbs Wild Countryside Slippery Elm Inner Bark. For
> safe, temporary relief of minor discomfort and protection of
> irritated areas in sore throat, sore mouth, coughs due to irritated
> throat, and to help soothe and relive irritation of influenced
> mucous membranes in the stomach and intestinal tract. Our exclusive
> FreshCare System inhibits normal plant oxidation, maintaining
> product potency and extending freshness. It includes all-natural
> antioxidants in each capsule, oxygen-absorbing packets in each
> bottle, special air-tight seals and amber glass packaging for
> uncompromised quality.
>
> And,the one I found at web look like for human and it is with
> capsules.
>
> These are what you all are using?
>
> Probiotic is used for diarrhea treatment or preventing them
> during the switch and main ingredients are acidphil something that
> found in Yogurt and give good friendly bacteria in the gutt.
>
> What these Slippery Elms do? It says soothing the intestine but
> which of the two are beter to dogs?It may depends on indivisual
> dogs too but.. in general?

Any plain old ordinary Slippery Elm will do. You can easily find
capsules, but I like powder, too, as you can stir it into things or
dump on top, and it's not so expensive that way. Slippery Elm coats
the mucous membranes of the entire digestive tract, soothing it and
promoting good transport, and also provides bulk where it is needed,
absorbing extra moisture. So it works for unsettled stools in either
direction. It is inexpensive and has absolutely no drug action, and
is not suppressive to any other modality.

It is harmless, but of course in the long run you need to find out
what is going on with an individual dog, and rectify the diet or
avoid the mistake. Long term serious digestive insufficiency is, as I
mentioned, a chronic disease issue which may be helped but not cured
by diet alone.

ginny and Tomo, totemo kashikoi ko

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: Slippery Elm brak
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Yassy!
I always get my SEBP here; http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/herb_index.htm#elm
TC
Giselle

> Hi, after having problems with Lamb feeding with my dog,I started
wondering about Slippery Elm.I know that when somebody's dogs get gut
problems,often times,Slippery Elms/probiotic are recommended to feed
with meal.
<snip>
What these Slippery Elms do? It says soothing the intestine but which
of the two are better to dogs?It may depends on individual dogs too
but.. in general?
>
> I was curious.
>
> thank you
>
> yassy

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: 80/10/10?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:20 am ((PDT))

We'll have to start our own support group "Rawfeeders with control issues" <G>

On 7/17/07, mwood8402 <mwood8402@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I do it too. I can't help it, I like things to be exact.
>
> -Melissa W
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > 'cause I started using one when I started raw feeding and it's just
> > habit. Probably latent control issues...whatever. I'm fine with it.
>
>
--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.saveourdogs.net
"Is that soap they're brainwashing you with environmentally safe?"

Messages in this topic (18)
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9b. Re: 80/10/10?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:02 am ((PDT))

"Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...> wrote:
>
> We'll have to start our own support group "Rawfeeders with control
issues" <G>
>
*****
Been there done that!
The acronym is AIWB and it stands for Anal As I Wanna Be although at
the time more than a few people were seriously annoyed that they
weren't taken seriously enough.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (18)
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10a. Re: Thanks Giselle for tips on getting meat supplies!
Posted by: "creativevazquez" creativevazquez@yahoo.com creativevazquez
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:19 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Gloria!
> Did you post on carnivore feed supplier?
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
>
>Thanks for tips giselle I will try some of the ideas.
Gloria
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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10b. Re: Thanks Giselle for tips on getting meat supplies!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:35 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Gloria!
YVW, but the thanks goes to Lis. Its her list, she compiled
it. I just saved it, as it seems very complete, and yours is a common
request.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Gloria!
> > Did you post on carnivore feed supplier?
> > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
> >
> >Thanks for tips Giselle I will try some of the ideas.
> Gloria

Messages in this topic (4)
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11a. Re: Lamb
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:21 am ((PDT))

>I wonder if she might just need more time to adjust to lamb.

Hi,Laurie. I introduced lamb last week and this week makes 2 weeks on Lamb. The reason I wrote that I may need to move on to the other protin and introduce later or pull out from menu was because she is on lamb 2 weeks when Saturday comes and more than 2 weeks on one protin could not be good I was assuming.

One dog can eat lamb or wahtever meat not do well can eat more than 2 weeks straight?

I feed Fish/seafood on Tues and Wednesday so,she is having break from lamb today and tomorrow though.

>Maybe, you could give her more time on raw and try it again later when her digestive >system is stronger.

Oh,OK. I did not know I then can introduce richier/fattier meat when she gets used to more variety and gutt gets stronger and do well.She be on raw 10th week this week.Lamb could have been too fast to introduce you think?

Well,I think I will try chicken and lamb this week more and if that was not getting good result;watery poo or loose poo,then,I will re-introduce much later then.She has not tried Lamb heart but is it as fatty as tongue/muscle boneless meat for lamb?I know heart is nutrient rich meat though.

>Does she do well with other meats than lamb and chicken at this point?

Well,she is good on chicken,beef,fish/seafood, and pork.Oh,and Turkey.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (23)
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12. Help me, help the butcher!
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:32 pm ((PDT))

OK, So I thought I had found a really excellent source for organ meat
from a small local slaughtering house. While I was happy to take the
excess liver, heart, spleen etc off his hands at a very fair price,
what I really needed from him was his beef/pork pancreas for my dog
(Bailey) with EPI. I called this afternoon to see if the order was
ready to be picked up and he rather bashfully mentioned that he
couldn't find the pancreas. He said he and the local "inspector"
sifted through the entire animal but couldn't find it. He will be
slaughtering another cow on Thursday and will give it another go.

Without insulting my only source of a budget saving miracle, how do I
tactfully point him in the right direction (not that I know where to
look).

You have to enjoy the irony....

Jeff

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
Posted by: "susan/foxfire" fxfireob@mac.com thadnsusan
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:00 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

I originally sent a version of this post to the RawMeatyBones list
and Pamela Picard suggested I ask it here. PK Shader from the SATZ
list also recommend I come here. So here's a bit of an intro and why
I've joined at this time.

I'm writing from Austin, Tx. We've been feeding a raw diet for 7 1/2
yrs and are very pleased. We started because Panza, our then-5-mo
GSD, had gotten vax-induced parvo. Panza is now 8 yo, though not the
picture of health due to his early health problems, he is still with
us and energetic. We also have a Great Pyr, Diotyma, who is 9 mo; and
Toto, a full coated tabby cat, who adopted us about a year or so ago.

We started out reading Billinghurst's BARF book but never really
followed it, but instead settled in on feeding RMB, Tripe & offal.
The dogs eat basically what we eat. We buy whole grass-fed/pastured
animals and get the processors to give us everything they can (state
laws won't let them give some parts e.g. brain) and we're very lucky
to have a great local buying coop for additional variety.

The reason I'm joining this group at this time, is up until now we've
just been doing our thing and haven't had much need for vets because
all health needs have been easily managed at home. But 2 months ago
we lost Modi, our 4 mo Swedish Vallhund puppy, who had been eating
raw since we brought him home at 8 wks old (thanks to SATS/Z he
learned to eat "easy" and chew his food during his first week with us:)

We are certain that Modi died from arsenic poisoning (the day he
died, he showed some distress during the day and then he suddenly
bled out that night and died within 10 mins; also we found some dead
rats in our yard) However the breeder is not so sure and is
seriously considering not giving us another pup. She is concerned
that it was salmonella and not poison, because she says poisons cause
neurological and clotting problems and not digestive problems (while
this may be true of warfarin it is not true of arsenic). In other
words, she is thinking that it is the raw diet that caused Modi to
die, not poisoning.

Just to give you a bit more background: Swedish Vallhunds are a rare
breed, new to AKC, their history is uncertain but they might be
related the Corgis, so are a smallish dog. The breeder is concerned
that since we've fed raw for some time that the level of salmonella
in our yard is dangerously high, too high for small breed pups. I've
never heard this, as I tend to not read all that commercial
propaganda, but she asked me to ease her mind so I thought this was a
great place to get the right information to share with her, and
wouldn't it be great if I could pass onto her an answer that might
just convince to become a nr breeder!

Since hearing about this I've been scouring the net trying to find
info to answer her questions, and came across this, which may very
well have triggered the breeder's fear:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2232&S=1

"Salmonella

Most people are somewhat familiar with Salmonella. They know it
represents a type of food poisoning, probably know it is associated
with diarrhea that can be severe, and may even know that Salmonella
species are bacteria. Most human cases of Salmonella infection cause
fever, diarrhea, and cramping that go away on their own, but in
children it can produce more severe disease. As with Campylobacter,
the young are more susceptible to more severe illness because they
are smaller and do not have mature immunity. The same is true with
puppies and kittens; adult animals are almost never affected by
Salmonella infection.

There is an important exception to the "Salmonella is rare in adult
dogs" rule and that is the case of dogs fed a raw food diet. It
has, unfortunately, become popular to feed raw foods to pets with the
idea that a raw food diet more closely approximates the natural diet
that the feline or canine body evolved to consume, and thus such a
diet should be healthier than commercially prepared foods. In fact,
the cooking of food is central to removing parasites, bacteria, and
bacterial toxins from food. A recent study evaluating raw food diets
found that 80% of food samples contained Salmonella bacteria and that
30% of the dogs in the study were shedding Salmonella bacteria in
their stool. Adult dogs are often asymptomatic but any infected
animal or person will shed the organism for at least 6 weeks thus
acting as a source of exposure to other animals or people. Salmonella
organisms are very difficult to remove from the environment and
easily survive 3 months in soil. Again, dogs used for therapy around
the elderly or children should be cultured for the presence of
Salmonella.

There are two syndromes associated with Salmonella: diarrhea and
sepsis. Salmonella bacteria, once consumed, attach to the intestine
and secrete toxins. The toxins produce diarrhea that can be severe
and even life-threatening in the young. If this were not bad enough,
some Salmonella can produce an even more serious "part two." These
bacteria are capable of invading the rest of the body through the
damaged intestine.

In young animals, the syndrome resulting is similar to that of canine
parvovirus, thus similar treatment is expected."

***********************************

Although we don't buy into this I just don't have the background to
dispel this type of propaganda - I'm a painter not a scientist:) So
I was hoping some folks here could help us address her concerns
regarding raw feeding, salmonella and small breed pups. Swedish
Vallhunds are a wonderful breed and it would be great to get a
breeder to really help keep the lines healthy, by giving her dogs the
great foundation of raw food.

Many many thanks
Susan

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Messages in this topic (2)
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13b. Re: An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:31 pm ((PDT))

find another breeder. Clearly you do not want to buy a dog from
someone who doesn't feed raw in any case.

My toy poodles are smaller than your dogs, and to suggest that the
size of the dog is effected differently from bacteria is ludicrious.

- Jane

Messages in this topic (2)
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14a. Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
Posted by: "deep_ocean_of_sorrow" deep_ocean_of_sorrow@yahoo.com deep_ocean_of_sorrow
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:44 pm ((PDT))

*** Mod Note: TRIM YOUR POSTS ! ***

Thanks to everyone that replied, I suppose we cannot change the
world to
stop using unleaded gasoline..
but there are some amount of lead in cattle, correct(whether it be
little or a lot)? and like the quotes, wouldn't that mean that the
more we feed these to our dogs, the more of a chance they will suffer
from lead poisoning? Or is this a type of risk we're just taking to
avoid dog foods/cat foods....?

Kate
In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lori Poirier <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:
>
> We undoubtedly are feeding some poisons to our raw-fed pets, just as
we are injesting them ourselves. Yet life goes on.
>
> > I was so freaked out, I couldn't sleep that night after reading this
> > part of the book. I was so scared that I might of fed lead, mercury
or
> > whatever chemicals to my dog... it was like a nightmare being in
bed,
> > awake.
>
> >What should we raw feeders do?!?
>
> These are legitimate concerns. Yet if we become immobilized because we
cannot find a pure and perfect solution, that is no good either. We
should buy the least contaminated food we can find and afford, and do
what we can not to make the problem worse (such as: don't pollute, lobby
for change, etc.). We should not risk stress-related diseases from
panicking over things that are beyond our control. Change what we can;
live with the rest.
>
> Lori
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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