[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11814

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: not eating with her paws
From: Sandee Lee
1b. Re: not eating with her paws
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: supplement w/digestive enzymes?
From: Sandee Lee
2b. Re: supplement w/digestive enzymes?
From: ginny wilken

3a. Re: only salmon?
From: Sandee Lee
3b. Re: only salmon?
From: Laurie Swanson
3c. Re: only salmon?
From: costrowski75
3d. Re: only salmon?
From: mppmunc

4a. butcher cuts?
From: linoleum5017
4b. Re: butcher cuts?
From: sillypoodle2003
4c. Re: butcher cuts?
From: costrowski75
4d. Re: butcher cuts?
From: Pi

5a. Drinking a Ton of Water
From: Jess Navarro

6a. Re: stinky gaaaas
From: linoleum5017

7a. Re: starting new puppy on raw food
From: Michael Moore
7b. Re: starting new puppy on raw food
From: carnesbill

8a. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it! *Q...
From: costrowski75
8b. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it! *Q...
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

9a. Re: When is a pup no longer a pup?
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Not going to the bathroom//What does liver look like?
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com
10b. Re: Not going to the bathroom//What does liver look like?
From: carnesbill

11. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it...
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

12a. Re: Where Can I get meat products in NEw Jersey?
From: Giselle

13a. Re: 80/10/10?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

14a. She doesn't use her paws to eat ?!?
From: Lori Poirier

Messages
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1a. Re: not eating with her paws
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:45 pm ((PDT))

Enjoying? Would you feed your kids Twinkies because they aren't "enjoying"
healthy foods? Someone has to be the adult and make proper decisions for
those who can't!

It may take some time to adjust to raw, the diet may have to be tweaked to
meet individual needs but it is always appropriate! Ooops...I must be a
hardliner (who believes in feeding species appropriately).

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Lyse Garant" <lyse_garant@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi there, sounds like you're having a rough time. Isn't it just possible
that this diet is not going to work for this dog? If my dog weren't
enjoying this diet, let alone tolerate it, I wouldn't do it.
> I know all you hard liners will disagree with me, but there's a time
when one has to say, enough is enough. I'd give it another week at most.

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: not eating with her paws
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:00 pm ((PDT))

Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...> wrote:
> Hi there, sounds like you're having a rough time. Isn't it just
possible that this diet is not going to work for this dog? If my dog
weren't enjoying this diet, let alone tolerate it, I wouldn't do it.
*****
With all due respect, Lyse, this is foolish and counterproductive.

What screws up a raw diet is illness or operator error. Those really
are the two options. If disease is ruled out, then the human needs to
get the human's act together. There is a raw diet for every dog; there
is a species appropriate diet for every single solitary species on this
planet and the caregiver's responsibility is to construct that meets
the needs of the animal.

Quitting benefits neither dog nor human. The dog is forced to eat
unhealthy, inappropriate food-like substances and the human gets to
feel guilty. Feh on that I say!

Where there is a will there is a way.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: supplement w/digestive enzymes?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:58 pm ((PDT))

Monica,

You might want to look back at some of the messages in the
archives....search on pancreatitis. Lots of good info on feeding. You
definitely don't want to go low protein...possibly low fat, small meals,
less bone and a good enzyme. Protein is not the problem anyway, and a raw
diet is not pure protein.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Monica" <mommyof2gals@comcast.net>

If the dog DOES have pancreatitis, how do I feed for that? Everything
I read says low protein, low fat. A pure protein diet doesn't seem to
work there. I'm sure others of you have had dogs with this condition -
how can you maintain a raw diet without being "high protein"??? I
really welcome suggestions as I deeply believe this is the way to
feed my babies but find the two theories conflicting.

Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: supplement w/digestive enzymes?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:14 am ((PDT))

On Jul 16, 2007, at 5:40 PM, Monica wrote:
> Also, to answer the question asking if Loki has had distemper
> vaccines - yes, he has. As a puppy, and once after that. Then I
> stopped vaccinating (except rabies - law) and began titering the dog
> instead. I am NOT fond of vaccines. So he was maybe 18mths at the
> last distemper. Would a shot that old begin affecting him at 4yrs?

Each and every vaccination delivers an energetic low-level chronic
form of the disease it is designed to target. So the effect on the
body is cumulative, and various symptoms will appear as the dog ages,
even if he suffers no more insults. As the body deals with the
dysfunction it gradually becomes more and more crippled, and things
will start to appear. It's possible that Loki has many other symptoms
of vaccinosis that have not been identified as such. The distemper
vaccine in particular causes gastrointestinal problems and also is
very strong in joint degeneration and certain skin issues.

The energetic damage from vaccines is not at all related to any
immediate reaction from adjuvants or from an immune response, so the
lack of issues at the time of vaccination is no indicator of safety.
There is no escaping or antidoting any of this at the time the shot
is given.

To make this slightly more on topic, distemper damage certainly can
be suspected whenever you have a dog that is chronically loose, was
before on kibble, and still tends to be on raw. Frequent vomiting,
obsessive hunger and food thievery, and also pancreatitis are common
symptoms as well. Of course homeopathy can undo a lot of this, but
diet management may be necessary, in terms of meal size or proportion.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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3a. Re: only salmon?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:18 pm ((PDT))

Jessie, this is nonsense! Green beans? Carnivores don't require nor get
benefit from carbohydrates. Any vet should know that! Where are the bones
and organs????

Far better to dump the supplements and feed an appropriate diet fit for a
carnivore!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Jessie" <O_snobunnie_O@hotmail.com>

I have a friend who started working at a fantastic vet's office when
she moved out of town. Ever since she started I've been envious and
wish I lived and worked where she does. Its a mixed practice with
some conventional medicine and some "alternative" medicine,
including a doctor who advocates raw diets.

Here's the catch - her idea of a raw diet as far as I can tell is
salmon and green beans. Yup, that's IT.

Now this friend recently adopted a Maine Coon cat from the doctor
who breeds (or used to?) them. She now has her on a diet of
salmon... and may add in beef or hamburger at some point if she can
convince herself its worth the trouble. As much as I've talked raw
with her (its not something she knew much about and is very
cheap/lazy when it comes to pet food) this is what she thinks is a
good diet for her cat. Not sure if she plans on switching over her
Beagle, but she might at some point. She also uses a supplement
called Whole Body Support.

Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: only salmon?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:25 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jessie,

Not sure if this will make any difference to her, but you might try the
nature route...as in, what would they eat in nature? And also, maybe
make a point about variety ensuring nutrients, like taurine, etc.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jessie" <O_snobunnie_O@...> wrote:
Here's the catch - her idea of a raw diet as far as I can tell is
> salmon and green beans.

Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Re: only salmon?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:14 pm ((PDT))

"Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
> Far better to dump the supplements and feed an appropriate diet fit
for a
> carnivore!
*****
Yeah, and dump the vet, too.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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3d. Re: only salmon?
Posted by: "mppmunc" mppmunc@yahoo.com mppmunc
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:51 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jessie" <O_snobunnie_O@...>
wrote:
>
> I have a friend who started working at a fantastic vet's office
when
> she moved out of town. Ever since she started I've been envious
and
> wish I lived and worked where she does. Its a mixed practice with
> some conventional medicine and some "alternative" medicine,
> including a doctor who advocates raw diets.
>
> Here's the catch - her idea of a raw diet as far as I can tell is
> salmon and green beans. Yup, that's IT.
>
> Now this friend recently adopted a Maine Coon cat from the doctor
> who breeds (or used to?) them. She now has her on a diet of
> salmon... >
> Jessie
>
Is this vet by any chaqnce in Raleigh, NC?

MP

Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. butcher cuts?
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:18 pm ((PDT))

I went to a butcher shop this past week, and they were very busy!
They gave me a list of what they sell,(but the prices are missing
and variable.) I talked to one or five people (!) but couldn't get
all my questions answered. Last thing I want to do is annoy the
hand that feeds my dog. Sooo..... can anyone tell me what these
cuts are:

beef flap meat?

lamb saddles?

pork cushion meats?

Whiting iqf? (it's fish, but iqf?)

pork hogs maws?

pork belly? (something to feed a dog?)

They seem fairly inexpensive compared to some of the stores I shop
at, so I'm hopeful.... anyone else in so.western PA who wants to
share a 40 lb. box of something?

Thank you,
Lynne

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: butcher cuts?
Posted by: "sillypoodle2003" angels_mom73@hotmail.com sillypoodle2003
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:05 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "linoleum5017" <linoleum5017@...>
wrote:
>
> I went to a butcher shop this past week, and they were very busy!
> They gave me a list of what they sell,(but the prices are missing
> and variable.) I talked to one or five people (!) but couldn't
get
> all my questions answered. Last thing I want to do is annoy the
> hand that feeds my dog. Sooo..... can anyone tell me what these
> cuts are:
>
> beef flap meat?
>
> lamb saddles?
>
> pork cushion meats?
>
> Whiting iqf? (it's fish, but iqf?)
>
> pork hogs maws?
>
> pork belly? (something to feed a dog?)
>
>
> They seem fairly inexpensive compared to some of the stores I shop
> at, so I'm hopeful.... anyone else in so.western PA who wants to
> share a 40 lb. box of something?
>
> Thank you,
> Lynne
>
ooh ooh me me *raises hand*. where are you located? i'm in the s.
hills of pgh. only have a small dog, and no freezer space, but may
be able to work something out. email me privately
angels_mom73@hotmail.com
kelly and zeke

Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: butcher cuts?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:43 pm ((PDT))

"linoleum5017" <linoleum5017@...> wrote:
Sooo..... can anyone tell me what these
> cuts are:
*****
Courtesy GOOGLE. If you haven't introduced yourself to it, please do
so. Google and the list archives will provide most of the answers
you'll ever need.

> beef flap meat? FEED IT.
*****
"Flap Steak or Flap Meat
This cut comes From the loin of the beef from a smaller muscle that
is frequently further processed into marinated steaks or fajita
strips."

> lamb saddles? FEED IT.
*****
"lamb loin = lamb saddle This is where the most tender and
expensive cuts come from, including loin chops and loin roasts."

> pork cushion meats? FEED IT.
*****
"The cushion refers to a specific muscle in a front leg of swine from
>what I remember. It can be smoked if there's some fat left on it.
>Otherwise it can be used for anything that calls for boneless pork."

> > Whiting iqf? (it's fish, but iqf?) FEED IT.
*****
"I.Q.F. DEFINITION:. I.Q.F. STANDS FOR "INDIVIDUALLY QUICK FROZEN"
PRODUCTS AND ARE NOT CONSIDERED "FISH BLOCKS". "

> pork hogs maws? DON'T BOTHER.
*****
"Well, Pork Maws are not something that I've ever cooked but
according to a search, a pork maw is a pig's stomach."

> pork belly? (something to feed a dog?) DON'T BOTHER.
*****
"The primal pork belly is located below the loin. Accounting for
approximately 16% of the carcass weight, it is very fatty with only
streaks of lean meat. It contains the spareribs, which are always
separated from the rest of the belly before cooking."

Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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4d. Re: butcher cuts?
Posted by: "Pi" scribblekitten@yahoo.com scribblekitten
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:11 pm ((PDT))

>> pork belly? (something to feed a dog?) DON'T BOTHER.
>>
> *****
> "The primal pork belly is located below the loin. Accounting for
> approximately 16% of the carcass weight, it is very fatty with only
> streaks of lean meat. It contains the spareribs, which are always
> separated from the rest of the belly before cooking."
>

If you're not scared of a bit of fat in your own diet, bbq marinated
pork belly is one of my personal favourite meals. I wish I could get it
more often but I haven't been near a butcher who sells it for over a
year now :(
I do feed Pi quite lot of fat and always figured pork belly would be a
good thing for the odd meal for him. I think it's because he's pretty
active and uses a lot of energy? Or maybe I'm just making things up here
and really have no idea what I'm talking about!

-Anna (who is relieved she won't have to share her pork belly with the
pup) +Pi (who actually does well with a fair amount of pork fat in his
diet) +Kitty (fat? ple-aase, I have a figure to maintain, don't you know?!)

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Drinking a Ton of Water
Posted by: "Jess Navarro" jess.hamway@gmail.com financialcongratulatory
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:20 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

That's weird. Was the chicken treated with anything? My dog drinks way less
water now that he's on raw.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: stinky gaaaas
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:20 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "monell2000" <monell2000@...> wrote:
>
> My standard poodles have very stinky gas.Does anyone else have this
> problem on the raw?? It doesn't seem to matter which meat they eat.
> Monell
>

One benefit is that when my dog has stinky gas at the same time as I
do, I can blame HIM!

lol,
linoleum

Messages in this topic (16)
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7a. Re: starting new puppy on raw food
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:25 pm ((PDT))

>>I will be bringing home my Havanese puppy in 2 weeks, and want to start him on raw food.
He will be 10 weeks old and a little under 2 lbs. My questions are:
1. what pieces are appropriate for a puppy of that size/age? (chicken thighs? wings? backs
only?)
2. should I transition him from the breeder's diet (Royal Canin) or go straight to raw feeding?
3. does anyone know of a good raw pet food supplier in New Mexico, or have other
suggestions for suppliers?<<

Good for you, Jackie!! Maybe I can be of some help, since I just weaned a little of Pembroke Welsh Corgis to raw. I started them at four weeks, and they were around the weight your puppy is. I started with bone-in chicken breasts, with "slits" cut into the meat so they could grab onto it. No wings or backs, as those are quite boney. You want the pup to get meat, meat, more meat, and a "little" bone and a "little" bit of organs.
My puppies licked the chicken for a few days (remember they were much younger than your pup!), then pulling the meat off the bone, and within about 10 days, they were stripping all the meat off the bones and consuming some bone.
My suggestion: ditch the kibble immediately and get that boy started on real food!!
Check the files of this list for good suggestions as to where to buy meat. Maybe someone will also respond with the name of a co-op in NM. I get most of my meat from a local slaughter house, but also quite a bit from local grocery stores -- sales flyers and "about to expire" stuff. Also have friends and a hubby who hunt and fish, and ask my family, neighbors, friends to give me their "too-long-in-the-freezer" stuff as well.

Gook luck with your puppy -- Havenese are super-cute!!

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: starting new puppy on raw food
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:55 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "leyssartade" <leyssartade@...>
wrote:
>
> 1. what pieces are appropriate for a puppy of that
> size/age? (chicken thighs? wings? backs
> only?)

I am used to Great Danes so puppies this small are a little foreign to
me. I think any of those items would be good for starters for your
pup. Remember you should add new meats every week until he has a
varied diet. You might want to check out my web page at

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm.

> 2. should I transition him from the breeder's diet (Royal Canin)
> or go straight to raw feeding?

Go straight to raw and don't feed any kibble. When I brought my
puppy, Thor home at 12 weeks, he was never fed a kibble meal since he
got here. His first meal here was chicken backs.

> 3. does anyone know of a good raw pet food supplier in New
> Mexico, or have other
> suggestions for suppliers?

I use grocery stores. I buy almost out of date stuff or whatever is
on sale this week. I also get "in the freezer too long" stuff from
friends and also deer meat they decided they will never eat. Seems
there are a lot of deer hunters who claim to be hunting for the meat
but never eat it. :) :) :) I buy some stuff in bulk (by the case). I
do this by getting small independent grocers to order it for me.
Walmart has chicken leg quarters cheap.

Read the book "Work Wonders" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. You can find it at

http://www.rawmeatybones.com and you can download it in PDF format for
free at the same location.

A few informative web sites are:
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it! *Q...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:41 pm ((PDT))

Hllywoodcaper7@... wrote:

> A german shepherd. Oh wow! I had been reading puppies should get
10% of
> current weight. YIKES! I hope I didn't hurt him any. He seems
ok; sleeps alot
> but also will play.
*****
If you want to do it that way you certainly can; after four or five
months or so it no longer rings true so you'll have to switch to the
2%-3% notion. Two pounds a day would be feasible for a 100lb adult.
Is your pupster likely to hit the century mark? If so, you're on
track; if not, then reduce the amount you are feeding unless two
pound suits the kid's currently lifestyle just fine. When my BC pup
was younger she was eating what by the numbers would have
been "right" for a 50lb adult but if she gets past 35lb I will be
blowed away.

The amount you feed is "right" or "wrong" only if it isn't working
for the dog doing the eating.

> Someone also just emailed me and said that he shouldn't be eating
the weight
> bearing bones of chickens right now either, only breasts, backs,
and wing
> tips. But then others have told me no wings, but chicken
quarters. I am so
> confused.
*****
A chicken whose life is over at six weeks doesn't have much weight to
bear. The notion of weight bearing bones being potentially dangerous
applies to big old livestock, not widdy chickens even though
commercial chickens are in fact mutant meaty monsters. Every part of
a typical commercial chicken is edible. What you don't want to do is
concentrate on the bony parts while excluding the meaty parts. Solo
wings for a greedy GSD pup may be iffy; a wing attached to the breast
ought to present a nicely complex and safe meal.

so glad to see it was normal and firm but still moist.
*****
<snort>
A zillion years ago there was a tv commercial for Duncan Hines cake
mix (methinks) in which an all-American kinda kid raves about the
chocolate cake and the all-American kinda mom beams and says, "Firm
yet moist!"

It remains one of my favorite tv lines.

> Any thing I should be on the look out for if he did eat too much or
might
> signal an impaction?
*****
Vomiting, straining, significant digestive distress, lethargy. I
doubt VERY much this is anything more than a lot of bone. It's
almost impossible to know right off the amount of bone that works
best for a dog. You'll figure it out. He's not likely to break.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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8b. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it! *Q...
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:08 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Laura A. You make me feel alot better about it! Thank you for the
good info! Tamatha :)




If he's getting too much food in a meal, you'll get messy, sloppy
stools. No big deal, just cut back a little bit...maybe add a 4th
snack sized meal, ya know? Balance it out, it's not rocket science
:-)




Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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9a. Re: When is a pup no longer a pup?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:54 pm ((PDT))

"Ross Senger" <rosssenger@...> wrote:
>
> At what point can a puppy start eating once per day? Up to now I have
> been dividing her meals into three one lb packages.
*****
I think your girl can go to two squares without any problems; the one-a-
day thing depends on her ability to adequately digest a day's nutrition
in one swell foop. If she can do that now, cool: go for it. If you
try and her digestion retaliates, then retreat to two meals and try
again when she's older.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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10a. Re: Not going to the bathroom//What does liver look like?
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:52 pm ((PDT))

I just bought a pack of gizzards and hearts today at Wally World.

POP! There goes that bubble, Bill! :)

Should I even bother feeding gizzards with the leg portion of a chicken
quarter? Or at all? Would I be correct to assume you are saying just accept it in
the meat when attached but not go out of the way to purchase a package of it?


I had started cutting it up small (and I mean small) pieces and giving it to
Sambuca as a treat for potty outside and such. . better than the pupperoni dh
bought him today and some "natural" treats that I read had charcoal in it.
What is that about? Am I missing something? Anyway. . .

I know since it is a treat it is a minute amount in comparison to meal after
meal, but still I am not sure I want it at all? Is that overboard freaky on
the health nut side? :)

Thanks for advice on my ever topic bouncing ideas!

Tamatha



In a message dated 7/15/2007 3:11:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
carnesw@bellsouth.net writes:

I'm not sure what they are but as far as I'm concerned they are pretty
useless nutritionally. They are basically a sack.

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
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10b. Re: Not going to the bathroom//What does liver look like?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:42 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Hllywoodcaper7@... wrote:
>
> I just bought a pack of gizzards and hearts today at Wally World.
>
> POP! There goes that bubble, Bill! :)

To which particular bubble do you refer?

> Should I even bother feeding gizzards with the leg portion of
> a chicken
> quarter?

Back in my early days of raw feeding, I bought a couple of those
packages of gizzards and hearts. They seemed to be very light on
hearts and very heavy on gizzards. I only bought a couple and never
bought another. Gizzards are sacks that hold rocks. I don't see
them as very nutritious.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (14)
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11. Re: Okay guys! 1st raw feeding w/ new puppy :) :) :) LOVE it...
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:54 pm ((PDT))

LOL!! Thanks Chris!! That makes me feel better. My voice of reason and
reassurance. :) His dad is about 100 lbs and lean and long. Just a big dog
with no signs of health problems and been certified etc. Mom is large for a
female too. So I would expect him to be larger than average. His paws are huge
right now.

As I thought about it more today (once I stopped completely freaking out), I
realized that as of right now, 10% of his current weight is the same as 2% of
his adult weight if I am assuming he is only going to be 85 lbs. So that made
me feel better too. I just gave him alot at once and he ate with gusto. I
adjusted his feeding this evening accordingly and he still seems fine. He's
breathing. :)

I have one happy puppy that is for sure. He LOVES his new food. Thanks
again for your help! (Relieved SIGH) Tamatha

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

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12a. Re: Where Can I get meat products in NEw Jersey?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Gloria!
Did you post on carnivore feed supplier?
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/

This is a copy and paste from a post of ideas by another list member;
Less Expensive Sources of Meat:

1) look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
2) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
3) you may be able to join a barter group.
4) google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
5) look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
6) if you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
7) let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
8) if you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
9) see if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or google to see.
10) try Craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
11) and I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through Freecycle.
12) some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Sams Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
13) definitely watch the the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
14) *** hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
15) tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
16) a great tip I learned here a couple of weeks ago - some
restaurants throw out things they don't use, like the organs that
come inside whole poultry. see if they'll save them for you.
17) farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains.
18) some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
19) find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals.
20) tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you).
21) yes, roadkill works too. In some places you can get your name on
the list and get called when they have roadkill (like deer)
22) you can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room
23) post a message in CarnivoreFeed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
24) speak to local farmers

Lis
Thanks, Lis!
TC
Giselle

> I recently posted a message inquiring about where to get meat in new
> Jersey. I got two response which I greatly appreciate in reference to
> getting meats at a local supermarket change. Now does anyone know of a
> place to get bulk meat at decent price? Plus other meat sources not so
> common in a grocery store. I'm trying to do whole prey but the closest
> I come to is whole chicken. The local market carries rabbit but it is
> super expensive. Thanks a bunch. I have two 45lb dogs who will be
> around 60-80lb full grown so I need ways to save money.
> Gloria
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. Re: 80/10/10?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:31 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/16/2007 9:10:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,
llatkinson@gmail.com writes:

Ok, I think I have to stand up and say "Hi, My name is Laura, I've
been rawfeeding for 5 years and I still weigh my dogs' meals."

Phew. I feel much better now :-)

lol, i still have my scale.. i use it for making bread now though..

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (15)
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14a. She doesn't use her paws to eat ?!?
Posted by: "Lori Poirier" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:42 am ((PDT))

Hi Pam!

The first time I heard about raw feeding was last month, so I do not have any kind of researched suggestions to offer. Yet I am stricken by the social dynamics.

> Christine...was the reason why I started seeking this diet.
> Her pickiness was making me crazy.

As beneficial as a raw diet is, I don't see it as a cure for pickiness. As parents, we pretty much control our children's diets...at least until they are teens. Yet if a child feels TOO controlled, whether or not food-related, they can develop eating disorders. OK, OK...this is a DOG, not a KID. But I have raised enough "pound-hounds" to know that they have their psycho-drama, too, even if it never gets a diagnosis from a shrink.

> I know I am the bad guy to her now...she doesn't sleep with me anymore
> and she just glares at me across the room!

This must be very painful for you. As good as a raw diet is..the food is no good if the dog doesn't eat it.

> She respects my commands and listens well
> but she is so sullen that its breaking my heart

As the adoptive parent of many "throw-away" dogs and kids, whenever I try any new teaching method, or rules, I must ask myself...

1) What am I TRYING TO TEACH?
and then...
2) What is my dog (or child) ACTUALLY LEARNING from me?

It sounds like you are lovingly investing yourself in doing what is best for Christine...yet she is learning that you are mean, and don't care enough about her to feed her the good stuff.

(It's TOUGH...being a mom!)

> I am strong enough to break up the stubborn streak in her

Are you sure you want to? Maybe guide it, shape it, lead it...but our dogs are often mirrors of ourselves...which is why I am so comfortable with "uniquely tempered" kids and dogs!

In addition to foster-dogs, we opened our home to many teenage foster kids (and teens in the system have ISSUES...). We also have two biological kids who are autistic, and two others who are ADHD. I guess all of that has caused me to understand that as valuable as advice is, it's all about relationships...with our fellow humans as well as our animal friends.

Raw feeding is healthy for dogs, but so is a loving and trusting relationship with the human pack leader. Your acts of love are being understood as punishment...not always something you can prevent, with pets or kids, but if they perceive too many of our actions as being mean or heavy handed, their respect and obedience will be based more on fear than on trust...exactly the opposite of what we want.

Some have suggested lightly searing the meat, and you have already tried the fish-oil concoction, with great results. Perhaps some of the other transitional measures/recipes will help as well.

But food & mealtime should be FUN! If it's not FUN, for your family and you dogs, something needs to change. Nutrition to the soul (canine as well as human) is an important part of nutrition.

Lori

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