[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11820

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
From: tottime47
1b. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
From: outcats4@aol.com
1c. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
From: jeff wissler

2.1. green tripe
From: alluponjanice
2.2. Re: green tripe
From: costrowski75
2.3. Re: green tripe
From: alluponjanice

3a. Re: Duck
From: chele519
3b. Re: Duck
From: Marion
3c. Re: Duck
From: costrowski75
3d. Re: Duck
From: costrowski75
3e. Re: Duck
From: chele519

4a. new and a corgi question
From: joan_alane
4b. Re: new and a corgi question
From: carnesbill
4c. Re: new and a corgi question
From: Heidi

5a. tripe concerns
From: outcats4@aol.com
5b. Re: tripe concerns
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Border Collie pups / RAW
From: Dave Strickland

7a. Re: not eating with her paws
From: Lori Poirier
7b. Re: not eating with her paws
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: organs
From: costrowski75
8b. Re: organs
From: Carol Santangelo

9a. ADMIN/Re:Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
From: costrowski75

10. Trip to the vet (tribute to raw)
From: Ross Senger

11a. Re: liver - getting dogs to eat
From: Tina Berry

12a. Re: Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
From: ginny wilken

Messages
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1a. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:15 am ((PDT))

Hi Bill,

You'll know all right......it's called heart disease....The first
thing a heart doc will do is put you on fish oil
supplements.....always wondered why, couldn't be the lack of omega
3's in the meat we normally eat?

Now I wonder why do so many of our dogs develop heart murmurs?
Surely with so many varied breeds & mutts, you'd think it would be
rare, yet it seems common.....gee, couldn't be the k***ble & store
bought meats, could it?

Carol, Charkee & Moli

============================================

I have never taken a fish oil cap in my life and as far as I know, I
am not short of O3. How would you know if you are?

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:

Messages in this topic (10)
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1b. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
Posted by: "outcats4@aol.com" outcats4@aol.com barb5ducks
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:03 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/18/2007 9:17:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
tottime@aol.com writes:

Now I wonder why do so many of our dogs develop heart murmurs?
Surely with so many varied breeds & mutts, you'd think it would be
rare, yet it seems common.....gee, couldn't be the k***ble & store
bought meats, could it?

Carol, Charkee & Moli

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Messages in this topic (10)
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1c. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
Posted by: "jeff wissler" wisslewj@yahoo.com wisslewj
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:58 am ((PDT))

Carol,

One of my 4 has a very small murmur. And yes we used
to feed kibble. (Organic even.) So he was getting
ridiculous amounts of omega 6, causing major damage
when it oxidated, and not much 3. (And basically NO
saturated fats to speak of.)

We have been raw now for about a year, but only on
grasfed meats for about 6 months. His murmur hasn't
gotten any worse and in general ALL the dogs health
has become quite good. REALLY Shiny healthy coats.
Lots of energy etc.

We feed plenty of raw heart to them as well as the
murmur guy had slightly low creatine. That should
help with that as heart is high in creatine.

As I said in my other post, its all about balance.
Saturated fats at about 60%, monos at about 35% and
the polys at about 5% is a good range if balanced.
Obviously some alterations need be made on grain fed
meats to compensate for the high omega 6.

I feed my dogs and me the same way lol. I actually
eat raw meat and fat and organs as well and it has
been a HUGE benefit to my health. (Only grassfed
though as store bought meat I wouldn't trust for my
eating.)

Its hilarious when I sit down to eat as the dogs think
I am getting their meal lol. (And it just about is!)

Cant say enough good things about grassfed and wild
caught animals! :)

Jeff

--- outcats4@aol.com wrote:

>
> In a message dated 7/18/2007 9:17:19 AM Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> tottime@aol.com writes:
>
> Now I wonder why do so many of our dogs develop
> heart murmurs?
> Surely with so many varied breeds & mutts, you'd
> think it would be
> rare, yet it seems common.....gee, couldn't be the
> k***ble & store
> bought meats, could it?
>
> Carol, Charkee & Moli
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak
> peek of the all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (10)
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2.1. green tripe
Posted by: "alluponjanice" alluponjanice@yahoo.com alluponjanice
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:15 am ((PDT))

Im not in an area where i can get green tripe without making a
roadtrip. Is there anything i can get to substitute for that nutrition
wise?
thanks Christian (King Solomon and Queen Makada)

Messages in this topic (46)
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2.2. Re: green tripe
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:57 am ((PDT))

"alluponjanice" <alluponjanice@...> wrote:
>
> Im not in an area where i can get green tripe without making a
> roadtrip.
*****
You can order it in from a variety of internet sources. A quick post
to the CarnivoreFeed-Supplier list ought to produce some results.

If you don't want to order it in, don't worry. Tripe is not
particularly useful nutrition wise; although it offers various useful
enzymes most dogs do quite well without green tripe on their menu.

Perhaps you might direct your potential green tripe money towards
grassfed meats.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (46)
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2.3. Re: green tripe
Posted by: "alluponjanice" alluponjanice@yahoo.com alluponjanice
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:59 am ((PDT))

>thanks chris I really needed that tid bit
christian

Messages in this topic (46)
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3a. Re: Duck
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:40 am ((PDT))

Chris, can you suggest something else that wouldn't be as expensive? I
feed duck once a month to give my dog some variety. Due to allergies,
she cannot eat chicken, beef and turkey and refuses rabbit. Her main
meat is pork with lamb a few times a month. Duck is the only other
meat I've found in a reasonable price range.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> Caren OConnor <cavkist@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello list members -
> > Does anyone have experience feeding duck?
> *****
> It's fatty and it's bony. If you are looking for a novel protein,
> there are other critters that will provide more meat for your
> doggiedollars.
>
> Duck is not magical enough to justify its expense.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (11)
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3b. Re: Duck
Posted by: "Marion" mbldesigns@yahoo.com mbldesigns
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:14 am ((PDT))

Not all duck is bony and fatty. We raise Muscovy ducks and they grow
quite large with breast meat weighing out to 3/4lb - 1 1/2lb depending
on age and male/female duck. The bones are a bit tougher than chicken
and the meat is a bit tougher too, but some of my dogs love it. I
don't know where you are, but maybe you can find a breeder nearby. I
live in Arkansas so if you're near me, just drop me a line
mbldesigns@yahoo.com

Marion

Messages in this topic (11)
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3c. Re: Duck
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:04 am ((PDT))

"chele519" <chele519@...> wrote:
>
> Chris, can you suggest something else that wouldn't be as expensive? I
> feed duck once a month to give my dog some variety. Due to allergies,
> she cannot eat chicken, beef and turkey and refuses rabbit. Her main
> meat is pork with lamb a few times a month. Duck is the only other
> meat I've found in a reasonable price range.
*****
Using duck as one of several protein sources in a varied diet is not
the same at all as having to rely on it as the novel protein in an
elimination diet. Duck added to pork and lamb sounds to me like you
don't have to depend heavily on duck and if you feel it's affordable,
go for it. Are you feeding duck meat or carcasses? Whole duck?

Have you tried goat? Probably no pricier than duck. How about fish?
Emu? Ostrich? Bison (not beefalo but real bison)? Venison?

Out of curiosity, how did you determine your dog is allergic to beef,
chicken and turkey? Turkey is often used as the "novel protein"
because of its limited use in commercial dog food.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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3d. Re: Duck
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:42 am ((PDT))

"Marion" <mbldesigns@...> wrote:
>
> Not all duck is bony and fatty. We raise Muscovy ducks and they grow
> quite large with breast meat weighing out to 3/4lb - 1 1/2lb
depending
> on age and male/female duck.
*****
Is that all you breed for? Breast meat? Is that because the other
body parts are not meaty? I have seen ducks only two ways: wild which
are not meaty or fatty, and domestic which are incredibly fatty and--
except for the breast--bony.

How is it your Muscovies are different? How do you raise them
different? I am confused.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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3e. Re: Duck
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:01 am ((PDT))

Ok, I guess I misunderstood the question/answer. I was feeding
carcasses but they were too bony so I buy a whole duck once a month. I
do cut off some of the fat for her. I haven't found a way to buy any
of the exotic meats at a reasonable price. She got moose a couple
times when someone I know bagged one but that is it.

When I started raw i did an elimination diet. Chicken made her ears
beet red and extremely itchy within 30 minutes. I went back to pork
and waited til the symptoms went away and tried beef and then turkey.
Each of those took a few days for symptoms to start and they weren't
as bad as with the chicken but still obvious. As a puppy she had
Innova which had a ton of different ingredients, I think there was
turkey in it.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:

Duck added to pork and lamb sounds to me like you
> don't have to depend heavily on duck and if you feel it's affordable,
> go for it. Are you feeding duck meat or carcasses? Whole duck?
>
> Have you tried goat? Probably no pricier than duck. How about fish?
> Emu? Ostrich? Bison (not beefalo but real bison)? Venison?
>
> Out of curiosity, how did you determine your dog is allergic to beef,
> chicken and turkey? Turkey is often used as the "novel protein"
> because of its limited use in commercial dog food.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (11)
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4a. new and a corgi question
Posted by: "joan_alane" joanalane@optonline.net joan_alane
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:40 am ((PDT))

Hi All,

We switched our 2 yr old corgi from a cooked diet (including meats,
grains and veggies) to a raw diet about a month ago.

Would anyone with a corgi care to share what an average week's diet
looks like, quantity-wise? There's nothing he won't eat, so variety is
not a problem, but I'm not quiet sure how much to be feeding him.

Thanks so much.
Joan

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: new and a corgi question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:32 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "joan_alane" <joanalane@...>
wrote:
>
> Would anyone with a corgi care to share what an average
> week's diet
> looks like, quantity-wise?

Joan,
The amount of food each dog need to eat varies greatly by individual
dogs. The rule of thumb is to feed somewhere between 2% and 3% of a
dogs body weight/day. If your dog weighs 50 lbs, that would be
between 1 and 1 1/2 lbs/day. If your dog weighs 25 lbs, it would be
between .5 and .75 lbs/day.

Sedentary dogs need less, very active dogs need more. I think the
consensus around here is feed the susggested amount while keeping an
eye on your dog's build. If he begins to gain weight, feed less ...
If he begins to lose weight, feed more.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: new and a corgi question
Posted by: "Heidi" troopob@yahoo.com troopob
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:59 am ((PDT))

Joan,
I've been feeding 3 corgis raw since the beginning of April. Mine
will eat ANYTHING (I have discovered one who won't eat fish skin
unless another threatens to get it). I feed 2 times per day since if
I don't one will do the yellow bile empty stomach yacking. They get
about 4-5 oz for each meal ( they weigh about 30 lbs each). I can cut
a 3 lb chicken into about 10 pieces (Thanks to Chris O's instructions)
and that works well. As with all long backed dogs we have to keep'em
slim and trim. Mine have gotten lean and less fluffy fat. Their
coats are looking good and teeth are pearly white. No more bad breath
or jumping corgis when they startle themselves when they fart.
Good luck
Heidi

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "joan_alane" <joanalane@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> We switched our 2 yr old corgi from a cooked diet (including meats,
> grains and veggies) to a raw diet about a month ago.
>
> Would anyone with a corgi care to share what an average week's diet
> looks like, quantity-wise? There's nothing he won't eat, so variety
is
> not a problem, but I'm not quiet sure how much to be feeding him.
>
> Thanks so much.
> Joan
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. tripe concerns
Posted by: "outcats4@aol.com" outcats4@aol.com barb5ducks
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:04 am ((PDT))

Hi, I spoke with a butcher that sells grass fed meat, he explained why they
couldnt carry tripe - because they rinse the stomach lining and intestines
with harsh chemicals -he said "acid" washes, before removing the tripe, and
they could find no way of cleaning the chemical residue off of the tripe in
order to sell it safely. I know the food store tripe is bleached, but wonder
if the green tripe goes through chemical processes as well - this butcher said
they did, and thats why he wouldnt sell it. Im worried about giving tripe
if its laced with heavy chemicals. Any one hear anything about this?
barb

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Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: tripe concerns
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:36 am ((PDT))

outcats4@... wrote:
>I know the food store tripe is bleached, but wonder
> if the green tripe goes through chemical processes as well - this
butcher said
> they did, and thats why he wouldnt sell it.
*****
The butcher is, um, confused.
The green tripe that is useful to our dogs is generally rinsed to
remove some of the undigested grass; is checked for nails, plastic
bags, cardboard and all the other junk cows will eat; cut into sheets
or coarsely ground, then packaged. That's it.

The more green tripe is processed, the less it is green tripe! Enough
processing and it turns in to the sanitary white or gray stuff you see
in grocery stores.

You might check out http://greentripe.com for more information.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Border Collie pups / RAW
Posted by: "Dave Strickland" dave@outrunbc.com herdnbc
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:04 am ((PDT))

She lives in North Carolina.

Dave S

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "Dave Strickland" <dave@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi ,
> >
> > A friend of mine is getting ready to have a litter of 2nd generation
> > RAW fed Border Collies.
> >
> > Where could I post to get this information out to people that feed
> RAW?
> *****
> Oh jeez, Dave, like I need to know this. Please tell me your friend
> lives in some remote inaccessible corner of Oklahoma.
>
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: not eating with her paws
Posted by: "Lori Poirier" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:34 am ((PDT))

> Perhaps you youself might want to delve into the archives for some recommendations.

I have, and have found some great information. Maybe Pam will as well. The search feature isn't always the greatest, but even when it turned up information I wasn't looking for, it was nonetheless interesting reading.

> What is likely to lead to WW3 is the assumption that kibble is better than raw.
> If you don't go there, it won't happen.
> Chris O

Huh? Why are you bringing up kibble? What does kibble have to do with this subject string?

Lori

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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7b. Re: not eating with her paws
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:51 am ((PDT))

Lori Poirier <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:
> Huh? Why are you bringing up kibble? What does kibble have to do
with this subject string?
*****
You wrote in response to discussion re the potential virtue of kibble
in this particular dog's experience:

"I am not knowledgeable enough to suggest specific "half-way" measures
or feeding to help transition her to raw, without a full-blown
declaration of World War Three..."

Perhaps I am mistaken but "World War Three" strikes me as a not very
oblique reference to kibble, given the previous posts to this topic.
How nice to be proven wrong.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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8a. Re: organs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:38 am ((PDT))

"Carol Santangelo" <carol.santangelo@...> wrote:
>
> Is it ok for the 10% of the diet that is comprised of organs to be
only
> liver?
*****
IMO that's too much liver over all. Just feed a chunk of liver once in
a while and keep looking for the occasional package of kidney. If you
can shop at an Asian market you will almost certainly find pork spleen.

Also if you are feeding whole chickens or backs there's typically a bit
of kidney stuck to the spine. This counts.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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8b. Re: organs
Posted by: "Carol Santangelo" carol.santangelo@gmail.com santangelo_carol
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:02 am ((PDT))

Ok, great. I am feeding whole chickens here and there. I just bought a
bunch of young chickens this week...they were on sale for .59 per pound. I
haven't fed any whole fish yet, but I do plan to do that as soon as my
fishing friend catches some for me like he promised.

I do feed beef heart and chicken hearts...but I was told those are muscle
meats, not organs.

Thanks.

Carol

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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9a. ADMIN/Re:Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:47 am ((PDT))

The only gas that's appropriate for discussion on this list is the
stuff produced by our dogs, cats and ferts. Petroleum products are not
food (saints preserve us!) and are not useful topics here.

Further postings will be deleted.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (13)
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10. Trip to the vet (tribute to raw)
Posted by: "Ross Senger" rosssenger@shaw.ca rosssenger
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:59 am ((PDT))

So, I saw the vet yesterday.....

There was a new vet that started up at the clinic. I went in to
simply pick up some heart worm preventative tabs (heart guard is what
it is called).

I told him what I needed (ie, I was in a location that was known for
heartworm and was looking for preventative treatment). Well they
decided it was necessary to do blood work....ok...can't hurt, so $70
per dog later they tell me everything looks great. So that's it right?

Well he also had to do a checkup, so checks the teeth... and tells me
how clean they are, comments on how nice and glossy there coat is,
checks there heart beat and tells me I have two healthy dogs... then
he gives me a dirty look and started giving me a lecture of the
consequences for raw feeding.

They had it out for me because I feed raw, I am sure they were
looking for something to complain about. An hour and $300 later I
walked out of the vet clinic with two "still healthy dogs" a bottle
of heart guard and an even greater trust in my dogs diet!

-Ross

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: liver - getting dogs to eat
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:02 am ((PDT))

"Guess they're grossed out by the texture, as well"

3 of mine eat liver no problem - Ruger hates thawed liver but will eat it
frozen raw. If it's soft and slimy he looks at me like "oh gross mom" and
spits it on the floor.
--
Tina Berry
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
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12a. Re: Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:17 am ((PDT))

On Jul 17, 2007, at 10:29 PM, deep_ocean_of_sorrow wrote:

>
> So there are no lead in the gasoline? Well, what the heck does all
> those
> premium, regular , stuff mean on the gasoline stations?? shouldn't
> there
> be no difference?
>
> Kate

OK, way OT by now, but there are other chemical compounds added to
fuels to make them burn more slowly, which is the whole aim of lead
use. I'd imagine many of them are pretty lethal, too - remember the
MTBE mistake in CA?

Slow burning is a mark of higher octane fuel, which works better in
higher compression engines. However, lead is protective of the metal
in exhaust valves, which are subject to more temperature damage from
heat than any other component. So in some special non-automotive
uses, lead is still a fuel component.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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