[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11821

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
From: ginny wilken
1b. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
From: leyssartade
1c. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Trip to the vet (tribute to raw)
From: ginny wilken
2b. Re: Trip to the vet (tribute to raw)
From: linoleum5017

3a. Re: tripe concerns
From: ginny wilken

4a. Regarding Fats and Oils
From: jeff wissler

5a. Re: Newbie needs advice and encouragement
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

6. some thoughts on "cost" of raw feeding
From: sueJM

7a. Re: tilapia
From: digger452001
7b. Re: tilapia
From: costrowski75

8. new raw pup has pudding stools
From: kovs74

9. Green Tripe Questions
From: cresco299

10a. Re: Duck
From: Marion
10b. Re: Duck
From: costrowski75
10c. Re: Duck
From: costrowski75
10d. Re: Duck
From: chele519

11a. Re: Starved Stray Food Suggestions
From: Ash

12a. Re: organs
From: costrowski75

13. Pork Tails and boney meals
From: grwalter2001

14a. ADMIN/Re:Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
From: costrowski75

15a. Re: liver - getting dogs to eat
From: grwalter2001

16a. Re: new and a corgi question
From: joan_alane

17a. Re: An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
From: susan/foxfire

18. Bad meat - good?
From: millser25

Messages
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1a. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:30 am ((PDT))

On Jul 18, 2007, at 5:49 AM, tottime47 wrote:

>
> Now I wonder why do so many of our dogs develop heart murmurs?
> Surely with so many varied breeds & mutts, you'd think it would be
> rare, yet it seems common.....gee, couldn't be the k***ble & store
> bought meats, could it?
>

There is a tie-in with vaccine damage here. My boy developed one
during his tenth year, well after going "clean" and homeopathic
treatment. You can't change pathology once it occurs, only ongoing
disease.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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1b. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
Posted by: "leyssartade" leyssartade@yahoo.com leyssartade
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:43 am ((PDT))

3 months in a feedlot removes most of the Omega 3 from beef cattle. There is a chart
here:

http://www.americangrassfedbeef.com/grass-fed-natural-beef.asp

showing how
Omega 3s diminish after cattle are sent to a feed lot. More than 60% of Americans don't
get enough Omega 3 in their diet (and that's using minumum levels, not optimum levels),
and 20% have levels so low they can't be measured.

What makes it worse is that there is an ungodly amount of corn and corn oil in the
American diet, and corn contains Omega 6. Too much Omega 6 and not enough Omega 3
causes serious EFA imbalances. The average American diet consists of a 20:1 ratio of
Omega 6 to 3; the ratio should be about 2:1, up to 4:1 maximum. Lack of Omega 3s have
been linked to virtually every major disease plaguing modern Americans, including cancer,
heart disease, depression and ADHD. Here's a link to an article discussion research at Ohio
State: http://www.americangrassfedbeef.com/grass-fed-natural-beef.asp

If you google Omega 3 and illness you'll find lots of information on the topic.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "leyssartade" <leyssartade@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ever wonder why everyone has to take fish oil capsules these
> > days just to get sufficient
> > amounts of Omega 3s?
>
> I have never taken a fish oil cap in my life and as far as I know, I
> am not short of O3. How would you know if you are?
>
> As far as I know, most cattle are grass fed until the last few
> months of his life. I know there are literally tens of thousands of
> cows in pastures around me. I see them every day happily grazing
> away. ;)
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>

Messages in this topic (13)
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1c. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:36 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "leyssartade" <leyssartade@...>
wrote:
>
> 3 months in a feedlot removes most of the Omega 3 from beef
> cattle. There is a chart
> http://www.americangrassfedbeef.com/grass-fed-natural-beef.asp
> showing how
> Omega 3s diminish after cattle are sent to a feed lot.

A word of advice to everyone. Always be wary of advice or "facts"
given to you by someone who stands to make money depending on a
decision you make. That would include vets, doctors, lawyers, and
beef associations and used car salesmen among many others.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (13)
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2a. Re: Trip to the vet (tribute to raw)
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:54 am ((PDT))

On Jul 18, 2007, at 8:23 AM, Ross Senger wrote:

> So, I saw the vet yesterday.....
>
> There was a new vet that started up at the clinic. I went in to
> simply pick up some heart worm preventative tabs (heart guard is what
> it is called).
> .... bottle
> of heart guard and an even greater trust in my dogs diet!
>
> -Ross

OK, now that you have the diet thing figured out, you need to get rid
of the HeartGard. Please go see

jstsayno2vaccs

or

TruthAboutVaccines,

both at Yahoo.

This stuff is a nasty neurotoxin with lasting bad effects on your
dog. Reports of cases are overstated and skewed, and you may wish to
investigate for yourself how many cases were discovered in your
neighborhood, and the sort of dogs, healthwise, who contracted it to
a dangerous degree.

ginny and Tomo, drug-free

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: Trip to the vet (tribute to raw)
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:38 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Ross Senger" <rosssenger@...>
wrote:
>
> So, I saw the vet yesterday.....
>

> An hour and $300 later I walked out of the vet clinic with
two "still healthy dogs" a bottle of heart guard and an even greater
trust in my dogs diet!
-Ross

Wow, expensive confirmation. I'm going today to the vet for
a 'screening' b4 neutering. Another waste of $$$, as they saw him as
a pup once already. Shall I explain the beeeautiful teeth & coat?
Maybe they won't ask............but I'm ready if they do, armed with
months of super facts our mods and list contributors have provided, as
well as proof in the pup. Maybe I should print Bill's tot tasting pig
snout photo, as extra weaponry?

linoleum

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: tripe concerns
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:04 am ((PDT))

On Jul 18, 2007, at 6:38 AM, outcats4@aol.com wrote:

> Hi, I spoke with a butcher that sells grass fed meat, he explained
> why they
> couldnt carry tripe - because they rinse the stomach lining and
> intestines
> with harsh chemicals -he said "acid" washes, before removing the
> tripe, and
> they could find no way of cleaning the chemical residue off of the
> tripe in
> order to sell it safely. I know the food store tripe is
> bleached, but wonder
> if the green tripe goes through chemical processes as well - this
> butcher said
> they did, and thats why he wouldnt sell it. Im worried about
> giving tripe
> if its laced with heavy chemicals. Any one hear anything about this?
> barb

They chemically denature anything that goes out the back door, in
some cases. But this is already past where it would be human food.
Ask him how they get the human-grade tripe, then, since it's supposed
to be acid-washed.

The big reason you can't get green tripe is because you can't process
it at all in a facility for human meats. They have to sell it to a
dedicated tripe-handling factory, and it has to be marked, "not for
human consumption" or "pet food only", to get by the denaturing
requirement. The only thing that happens to pet food tripe is that it
is washed with a big hose.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Regarding Fats and Oils
Posted by: "jeff wissler" wisslewj@yahoo.com wisslewj
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:34 am ((PDT))

Hey Guys,

Thought I would just interject something here.

It has been shown through numerous studies that poly's
like the omegas are actually NOT healthy.

What it comes to is this. Polys oxidize in the system
very readily leading to heart disease and a WHOLE HOST
of other problems. Its no surprise that as our
consumption of these oils have increased over the
years SO HAS heart disease, cancer etc.

SO WHEN are omegas good? Well if the diet is very
lopsided with high omega 6 from eating grains etc (and
the meat of grain fed animals), then Omega 3 is needed
to bring the balance back as the balance IS important.

However, studies have shown well that keeping polys
VERY low (but balanced)in a diet and getting raw
SATURATED fat is far superior for health. And this
makes sense since wild animals, while higher in omega
THREE then grain fed animals, are still largely
saturated. (Goes saturated, mono, and then poly)

Saturated fats actually will protect the heart. (Its
actually the hearts preferred food source!) They will
protect the liver and a whole host of other things as
well. They make hormones work better and cause better
utilization of protein. In fact roughly 50% of a cell
membrane is saturated fat. If the saturated fat
intakes are too low and polys or monos are all that is
available for building, the body will try and
"saturate" some fats but the end result is almost
always floppy cells that don't work right.

In fact there is one study where the dogs only fat
source was fish oil. All dogs ended up getting
cancer.

The above is applicable to both humans and dogs as the
system is almost identical. Dogs are a bit better off
since they produce vitamin C which helps mitigate some
of the oxidative damage of the polys. Imagine the
damage we humans are doing to ourselves when we don't
get enough raw saturated fats and too many polys! We
don't make Vitamin C.

If you don't have access to grass fed meats, then I
would get some raw coconut oil (Garden of life makes a
quality brand.) or some palm oil (make sure its ok for
dogs but see no reason why it wouldn't be.) or even
give some raw egg yolks. Basically get more saturated
fats into their diet from PROPER sources.

In fact if one gives organic egg yolks regularly,
which have alot of omega 3, I see no real reason to
give ANY oils as most are prone to oxidation and hence
rancidity. The yolks should balance out the omega 6
in the grain fed meats. Add extra saturated fat
(preferably not from grain fed animals in large
amounts.) and you will have it. Slankers sells raw
suet that one could buy and toss out an appropriate
amount with the meat. That way the fat eaten has the
right balance as well.

Anyway, just food for thought! :)
If anyone has any questions just shout and I will help
if I can.

God Bless
Jeff

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433

Messages in this topic (20)
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5a. Re: Newbie needs advice and encouragement
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:35 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/17/2007 7:35:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
denisestrother@yahoo.com writes:

A better choice would be to get
a whole chicken and cut it into quarters. Then give your dog a
quarter at a time.

What is the best way to cut it--the bones? What do you use?

Thanks! Tamatha

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
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6. some thoughts on "cost" of raw feeding
Posted by: "sueJM" suejm@yahoo.com sueJM
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:38 am ((PDT))

Hello All - I have been mulling this over for some time...I LOVE raw
feeding my 3 Standard Poodles BUT I am also very environmentally
conscious and always have been eg I've used my own bags for 27 years.
SO, lately I've been aware of the "energy" and resources going in to
feeding my dogs this way. For example the added gas I use to drive to
my sources of inexpensive yet high quality food (out of my usual
circuit of shops). The plastic packaging it comes in, the amount of
washing up/water I use over the grain-free k***** where bowls/towels
don't require the amount of cleaning or the same amount of packaging.
Also the energy the little freezer uses where I store their food so I
can buy in quantity. We do put our 20+ pounds of ground chicken
carcasses plus other items in Pyrex containers where possible. Has
anyone else thought about this and if so, any suggestions for reducing
the enery in all its forms that RF'g requires? I am not factoring in
my time eg driving and packaging and cleaning as that is my
responsibilty and choice.

Susan and Rose'n'Buds

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: tilapia
Posted by: "digger452001" p.rosier@comcast.net digger452001
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:39 am ((PDT))

M puppy hated the Tilapia, but I gave it to her in large pieces. She
didn't seem to figure out how to eat it. Next time, I will try to cut
small pieces - should I cook it? Very hard to cut!
Penny

Messages in this topic (6)
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7b. Re: tilapia
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:14 am ((PDT))

"digger452001" <p.rosier@...> wrote:
>
>Next time, I will try to cut
> small pieces - should I cook it?
*****
No.
Not only does cooking diminish the nutritional value, it makes the
bones hard and dry and stiff; cooked bones fish or otherwise should be
avoided.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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8. new raw pup has pudding stools
Posted by: "kovs74" superflydaddyo@hotmail.com kovs74
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:40 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

HI I'm the proud papa of a 8 week old South African Boerboel named
Nyah. I've been feeding her raw chicken for about 4 days now and she
continues to have sloppy stool with clear jelly mixed in. Is this
normal? I think I might be feeding her too much. I feed her 3 times a
day, chicken thigh with back attached she does eat it all but I think
the pieces are too big. Not sure on the weight amounts any help would
be great thx.
ps nice to be a part of this group and see so many concerned loving
dog owners.

Messages in this topic (1)
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9. Green Tripe Questions
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:42 am ((PDT))

As I previously posted, I am working with a small slaughterhouse to
get a variety of cuts. The gentleman there is used to disposing of
the things you and I find very valuable so he is not to knowledgeable
when it comes to these kinds of requests.

How do I describe green tripe to him? I've tried researching it a
bit, but I'm not finding anything concrete. Some sites say it is the
entire stomach ground up (which stomach?), some say it is the 1st or
2nd or 4th stomach and some say it is only the stomach lining.

Which stomach do I want? And do I want the entire thing or just the
lining?

Thanks
Jeff & Bailey

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: Duck
Posted by: "Marion" mbldesigns@yahoo.com mbldesigns
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:48 am ((PDT))

No I don't just breed for breast meat, that was what I could remember
weightwise because my friends only wanted to eat the breast meat and
that's what I sold them. I have weighed a typical female and she was
about 8 lbs, one of our biggest oldest males was 14 lbs. My husband
and I did try to eat the legs and wings once, but we must have cooked
them wrong because they were to tough cooked for our teeth. However,
this weekend we butchered 2 male Muscovies and chopped it into
pieces.
When we butcher we skin them because it is really hard to pluck the
feathers. But even looking at the skin or their innards, there
really
isn't that much fat. In fact there was more fat inside some of the
roosters as they seem to hang out all day next to the feeders. For
the
ones we did this weekend, there was a good amount of meat on the legs
and first section of wing. I would say more than on chickens. Before
learning about rawfeeding, I used to boil the duck after removing the
breast meat and then strip all the meat off to feed to my dogs and I
would get about 1 1/2 lbs of meat, that's just cooked boiled all the
flavor out of meat.

Oh I still have a duck leg quarter from this weekend, I've just taken
a
picture of it next to a store bought leg quarter. It's at

http://www.mbldesigns.com/muscovies/duck_leg_quarter.jpg

My Muscovies free range, meaning they waddle and fly around wherever
they want on my 6 acres and into the neighboring woods. We have a
pool
and a marsh for them to swim in as well as the water troughs for the
sheep that they love to bathe in. They are several months old if not
year old before we butcher, that could be the difference between mine
and what you're used to. I'm sure the ones in stores and sold to
restaurants are butchered quite young so the meat hasn't had enough
time to get bigger. My ducks, both male and female don't get to
their
biggest size until they're well over a year old. If you want to see
pictures of some of my ducks go here

http://www.mbldesigns.com/muscovy_ducks.html

The ducks love to
search
for bugs amidst all our wood piles.

Marion

> Is that all you breed for? Breast meat? Is that because the other
> body parts are not meaty? I have seen ducks only two ways: wild
which
> are not meaty or fatty, and domestic which are incredibly fatty and-
-
> except for the breast--bony.
>
> How is it your Muscovies are different? How do you raise them
> different? I am confused.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (15)
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10b. Re: Duck
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:57 am ((PDT))

"chele519" <chele519@...> wrote:
I was feeding
> carcasses but they were too bony so I buy a whole duck once a
month.
*****
Seems to me it's a fair deal if you can afford it and your girl does
well on it. Especially since she does well on it!

I haven't found a way to buy any
> of the exotic meats at a reasonable price.
*****
Maybe you can afford sneaking a meal in once or twice a month. Even
once a month. And it can be boneless if that makes access easier.

> When I started raw i did an elimination diet. Chicken made her ears
> beet red and extremely itchy within 30 minutes. I went back to pork
> and waited til the symptoms went away and tried beef and then
turkey.
> Each of those took a few days for symptoms to start and they weren't
> as bad as with the chicken but still obvious.
*****
My goodness.
That's an allergic girl all right. You're lucky to be able to depend
on pork and lamb and duck.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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10c. Re: Duck
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:20 am ((PDT))

"Marion" <mbldesigns@...> wrote:
> My Muscovies free range, meaning they waddle and fly around
wherever
> they want on my 6 acres and into the neighboring woods. We have a
> pool
> and a marsh for them to swim in as well as the water troughs for
the
> sheep that they love to bathe in. They are several months old if
not
> year old before we butcher, that could be the difference between
mine
> and what you're used to. I'm sure the ones in stores and sold to
> restaurants are butchered quite young so the meat hasn't had enough
> time to get bigger. My ducks, both male and female don't get to
> their
> biggest size until they're well over a year old.
*****
Wow! Thanks for the info Marion. No question that free range and a
natural life make all the difference. We should all be so lucky.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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10d. Re: Duck
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:36 pm ((PDT))

Well, i was hoping she'd like rabbit but she won't eat it. Yeah,
boneless makes it a lot easier. I always check for deals and I have
seen ostrich and buffalo but it is about $6/lb so it would be a rare,
special treat.

The food allergies are just the tip of the iceberg, there are tons of
environmental, including housedust. And I'm not the greatest
housekeeper either. I just hope that she doesn't develop any allergies
to one of these foods or I'm in trouble.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
> I haven't found a way to buy any
> > of the exotic meats at a reasonable price.
> *****
> Maybe you can afford sneaking a meal in once or twice a month. Even
> once a month. And it can be boneless if that makes access easier.
>
> *****
> My goodness.
> That's an allergic girl all right. You're lucky to be able to depend
> on pork and lamb and duck.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (15)
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11a. Re: Starved Stray Food Suggestions
Posted by: "Ash" want4rain@yahoo.com want4rain
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:00 am ((PDT))

since we are past the worse of it id like to make one last update to this-

id like to say its really an amazing thing that people still seek out
other like minded folks to share advice, technique and preference with
considering all i have gotten on MY decisions are judgment and a very
narrow rigid view on what im doing WRONG. there is no ONE right way.

what i expected from a raw feeding forum was advice from people who
knew what would be used up first in a cat who was starved, a good
source to find these things and a maybe even an idea of what is the
most important thing to focus on nutritionally whether it be the fat,
protein, phos/calcium balance or taurine. i wasnt asking for approval
on my choices. who better to know whats IN your diet than other people
who jump through hoops to not only feed their animals the best food
nature makes but also educate others.

(FYI in my research i found that bugs are rather high in taurine so
scratch that off of the list of thigns to focus on with finding a
starved cat because that was probably most of their diet right now in
the summer time anyway.)

now onto vaccinations... before you give advice on a subject as
dangerous as RABIES please understand that while common sense would
dictate a rabies vaccination is prudent under any case... it is often
the LAW in many areas so please, before advising someone to NOT get a
rabies vaccination, understand you are advising them to an illegal action.

lastly, while i may sound harsh and judgmental myself there, to
EVERYONE who responds to any of these posts (mine or otherwise) a big
thank you to you for taking the time to educate and share your
experiences. you dont get paid for this, the only thing you get is
knowledge and the satisfaction you are doing what you feel is right.
please dont STOP that but try to understand there is no ONE right way
and be a little less judgmental please.

-ashley

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "aliinfl" <aliinfl3@...> wrote:
>
> Ash,I am sorry you feel attacked but, in retrospect, what would you
> expect on a RAW fed board? No one here is going to whitewash their
> rock solid views in order to make anyone feel better. While obviously
> everyone would feel it is very commendable rescuing a little
> kitty,they also have strong convictions on what is best for animals
> and just want to let you know what that is, through their years of
> experience and knowledge. I am only a measly lurker here, but over
> and over again, I have seen people come in and explain in advance
> why, in their specific "special" case they are doing things certain
> ways, that clearly the board is NOT in support of, and then expect to
> be reassured that what they are doing is a good thing? It just aint
> gonna happen! I think everyone does understand your worries and
> fears, but when they hear these same ones over and over and give
> their advice only to fall on deaf ears it must get tiring for them.
>
> In my own experience with rescuing "on the brink of death" stray
> kitty's,the subject of immediate nutrition was not so much the be all
> end all. It was just get food in them.Any food.Period. Raw food
> doesnt treat the body any worse than crap food, so the fear of
> vomiting all over the place doesnt really make a while lotta sense.In
> fact, considering nature, it is far less apt to make the kitty sick
> than anything else, as it is the easiest thing for an animal to
> digest since it is natures perfect food. If she were to balk at it,
> then yes that is another matter altogether, but you werent really
> asking what to do when a kitty wont eat raw.
>
> For me, the bigger picture here for the immediate future, isnt the
> feeding habits,but the fact that a vet actually gave this poor teeny,
> little body a rabies vaccine immediately without hesitation![Did he
> think that day you were going out frolicking with rabid racoons?] Her
> frail body then was invaded with 2 more poisons the next day???
> SO now, besides fighting off malnutrition,her already weakened immune
> system has been completely assaulted!!! This doesnt even need to turn
> into a discussion between the pro poison people and the anti poison
> people, but any vet should know you dont vax or posion weak,frail or
> sick animals! There is plenty of time later on down the road for
> that, when it is pretty certain the animal is on the road to good
> health!<insert my own sarcasm toward vet>
>
> All in all, the only thing this little animal needs from you right
> now is plenty of food,water and love. As long as you can live with
> your choices of what kind,then you shouldnt worry what anyone else
> thinks.
> Good luck with her!
> Alicia~
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Ash" <want4rain@> wrote:
> >
> > thank those of you for the encouragement. it is greatly
> appreciated!!
> >
> > i will say the criticism wasnt expected nor appreciated. ive gotten
> > little support here off the net and quite a few here on the mailing
> > list have made assumptions and been quite critical of the decisions
> > ive made or they ahve assumed i made.
> >
> > i am NOT feeding kibble, im making her foods COOKED and almost the
> > exact same diet my cats are fed RAW but MORE and COOKED. im feeding
> > cooked because the poor thing, as far as i know, has never eaten raw
> > and cant fight off bacteria nor parasites as well as if she were
> > healthy. every source of informaiton i have read on raw feeding says
> > bacteria and parasites are not a concern for HEALTHY cats. im not
> > taking the chances of her getting sicker because she is sick enough
> > already.
> >
> > now, what i am asking is WHAT SHOULD I FOCUS ON? i am feeidng
> chicken
> > and salmon meat. should i focus on chicken livers? chicken pancreas?
> > brains? or should i leave offal at a reasonable dose and up just her
> > muscle meat? give her extra chicken skin? is a variety of different
> > meats more important than which parts?
> >
> > what concerns should i have over having a starved young cat on my
> > hands? inappropriate calcium build up?
> >
> > thanks!
> >
> > -ashley
> >
>

Messages in this topic (13)
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12a. Re: organs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:00 am ((PDT))

"Carol Santangelo" <carol.santangelo@...> wrote:
> I do feed beef heart and chicken hearts...but I was told those are
muscle
> meats, not organs.
*****
Yup, for our purposes they are muscle meat and good on your for feeding
them.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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13. Pork Tails and boney meals
Posted by: "grwalter2001" rmoondance@gmail.com grwalter2001
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:03 am ((PDT))

Are pork tails a good source for the boney part of a meal? I mainly
feed them as treats but are they a good kind of bone too? Or is there
bone in them at all? I fear not getting enough bone into their diet
since neither dog is interested in chicken. I know it's a matter of
tough love, and giving them no other options, but for now, I'm just not
pressing it with the chicken. I'm finding it a bit challenging to find
the right kind of bones. They don't eat the bones from pork ribs
either. They are both 70ish lb dogs.

Regina, Sam and Kobe

Messages in this topic (1)
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14a. ADMIN/Re:Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:05 am ((PDT))

This topic is OT. Doesn't matter how much one wants to post to it,
it's over now. Take it to RawChat please.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (13)
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15a. Re: liver - getting dogs to eat
Posted by: "grwalter2001" rmoondance@gmail.com grwalter2001
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:09 am ((PDT))

I have put it in a pan of water and heat up til most of the color is
gone. They love it this way and also love the liver "broth" over some
of their meals. Is this a bad idea? Am I cooking the "life" out of it
by doing this?

Regina

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Caren OConnor <cavkist@...> wrote:
>
> Kim -
> I have another recycled suggestion for getting dogs to eat liver.
Plop it in a pan and sear it quickly, not cooking it through. My dogs
prefer it either this way or frozen - aka livercicles. Guess they're
grossed out by the texture, as well. Can't say as I blame them!
> Caren O'Connor
> Nansemond Cavaliers

Messages in this topic (20)
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16a. Re: new and a corgi question
Posted by: "joan_alane" joanalane@optonline.net joan_alane
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:11 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Heidi" <troopob@...> wrote:
I feed 2 times per day... They get
> about 4-5 oz for each meal ( they weigh about 30 lbs each).

============
Okay, thanks, Heidi. This is about what I'm doing too. Zippy is 33 lbs and it would be good if
he could drop 3 of those, but I'm not rushing it--I want to see how this change in diet effects
his weight and then I'll tweek it as needed.

Right now, on average, I'd say he gets 4 days of chicken, one of organ meats, one of pork,
and one of veggies. (I know there's some disagreement about veggies, but for now, it's part
of our weaning -- we cut the grains out completely when we switched and I'm not sure if I'll
phase the veggies out or not.) ANYWAY....too much chicken do you think? Should I mix it up
with some beef or something else?

Thanks for the feedback.
Joan

Messages in this topic (4)
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17a. Re: An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
Posted by: "susan/foxfire" fxfireob@mac.com thadnsusan
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:44 am ((PDT))

Thanks everyone, all your replies were helpful. One thing I realized
is that we made a mistake from the get go - we used the wrong
terminology. Modi bled out rectally, which is not the same as
"bloody diarrhea, the term we initially used. What we should have
said was he had gastrointestinal hemorrhage. So from reading what
people wrote in and following the links I was able to compose a good
and respectful email, which should put this to rest. Also I found 2
sites that conventional folk will have a hard time arguing with:)

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/20900.htm
<snippets>
- Salmonellosis is seen infrequently in dogs and cats and is
characterized by acute diarrhea with or without septicemia.
- Clinical disease is uncommon, but when it is seen, it is often
associated with hospitalization, another infection or debilitating
condition in adults, or exposure to large numbers of the bacteria in
puppies and kittens.
- In dogs and cats, clinical disease takes the form of acute diarrhea
with septicemia and is seen occasionally in puppies and kittens or in
adults stressed by concurrent disease.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MHMI/mmg168.html

Health Effects (of Arsenic)

* Toxic effects of arsenic trioxide usually result from ingestion.
Small amounts of arsenic trioxide can lead to multiple organ damage
and death. Acute signs and symptoms include nausea, vomiting,
diarrhea, gastrointestinal hemorrhage, cerebral edema, tachycardia,
dysrhythmias, and hypovolemic shock. Symptoms are dose dependent and
can be delayed.

Arsenic fits. Salmonellosis would only really be symptomatic of a
another problem (at least that's how I read it); and if he did
experience "exposure to large numbers of the bacteria" our 5 yo dd,
who Modi licked daily (in the mouth and up the nose:), would have
gotten far sicker then Modi.

Thanks again, great group & great cause; and I'm glad to have finally
joined:)

Susan
Austin, Tx
Panza, 8 yo GSD, Diotyma, 9 mo Great Pyr & Toto 4? yo tabby

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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18. Bad meat - good?
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:36 pm ((PDT))

I just read an unusual article from a guy that was trying to debunk
the raw feeding "craze" (as he called it). He suggested that raw meat
was difficult for a dog (and wolf) to digest. Citing that dogs/wolves
will often bury a carcass and come back to it after it has "purified"
and is easier to digest. I was horrified at first, but then recalled
that my dog has done this. He has buried his chicken backs and leg
quarters and them come back to them months later. (Of course I had no
idea he was doing this until I found him happily gnawing on a very
dirty and very smelly hunk of what used to be chicken.) He'll
sometimes snub his fresh and slightly gamey meat, but will frequently
check his favorite hiding hole to see if I've missed anything recently.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that fresh meat is difficult to digest,
but I wouldn't disagree that rotten meat is desired. I certainly
wouldn't "ripen" my RMBs for him. But, should I let him keep his
little underground locker in full use?
I don't know, but it is an interesting concept to explore...
What are your thoughts?
Erica

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