[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11852

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: magolin0328

2a. Re: protein percentage?
From: temy1102

3a. Re: In memory of Harley 10/26/97 thru 07/27/07
From: joseandbrenda1

4.1. Re: Chicken feet
From: Cheryl

5a. Re: older dog
From: Cheryl
5b. Re: older dog
From: Sandee Lee
5c. Re: older dog
From: Morledzep@aol.com
5d. Re: older dog
From: katkellm

6a. Re: Refusing organs
From: linoleum5017

7.1. Re: Constipation
From: Cheryl
7.2. Re: Constipation
From: Morledzep@aol.com
7.3. Re: Constipation
From: Morledzep@aol.com
7.4. Re: Constipation
From: Cheryl
7.5. how often to feed (was Re: Constipation
From: Laurie Swanson
7.6. Re: Constipation
From: Cheryl
7.7. Re: Constipation
From: Morledzep@aol.com

8a. Re: Windfall
From: linoleum5017
8b. Re: Windfall
From: katkellm
8c. Re: Windfall
From: katkellm

9a. Re: Buffalo Heart
From: Morledzep@aol.com

10a. How much raw food should I be feeding a day?
From: brandy smolen
10b. Re: How much raw food should I be feeding a day?
From: Sandee Lee
10c. Re: How much raw food should I be feeding a day?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

11a. Re: Small dogs
From: Morledzep@aol.com
11b. Re: Small dogs
From: Cheryl

Messages
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1a. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "magolin0328" maggie.taylor@artlover.com magolin0328
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:52 pm ((PDT))

You want to avoid bones that have been cut by a saw. They're
generally pretty sharp and the saw used can cook the bone to some
extent which would make it brittle. Not what you want to feed. I'd
pull the bones out of something like a pork chop and just feed the
meat if they're particularly cheap. I don't bother with getting pork
chops unless on sale.

Basically feeding any smallish bones depends on the dog. I have no
problem with feeding my dog (45lb Border collie mix) any sized bones.
He chews his meals and doesn't gulp things. Some dogs should only be
given things that are bigger than their heads so they can't gulp.
That said, I don't usually bother with necks of any sort because there
is usually very little meat on them. The few times I have fed pork
necks it was because there were huge sales on various ground meats so
I stocked up on those and fed the necks so he'd get some bone too.
Also, when I feed ground (which isn't all that often) I always feed it
frozen so he has to work at it like any other meal. Chicken and
turkey necks have only been fed when attached to the rest of the bird.

The problem with feeding a lot of necks is they are way too much bone
and not enough meat. You only want about 10% of the diet to be edible
bone. Most of the bone in Diesel's diet comes from chickens which I
generally feed whole.

Every single meal doesn't have to be balanced - just the overall diet.
If Diesel is eating a pork shoulder roast he gets at least a week of
totally boneless meals and then a couple of very bony meals in the
end. If I had gotten pork chops and spare ribs I would just feed the
boneless pork chops until they're gone and then feed the ribs until
they're gone. Make it easy. If you're feeding multiple dogs you can
divvy it up however you want, but if its just because you're worried
about the bone/meat ratio for a couple of meals - don't bother.
Depending on the size of the dog they probably can eat at least some
of the rib bones. Diesel chews the ends off both pork and beef ribs
usually and then leaves the rest.

You're thinking too hard here with the wanting to throw chicken thighs
in for bone. Last week Diesel had a couple whole chickens (some meat,
lotta bone). This week he's got a pork shoulder roast (lotta meat,
little bone). When he's done with that he's got either a duck (some
meat, lotta bone) to or some turkey (lotta meat, little bone) to work
on. It'll depend which one I grab when he's done. The duck and
chicken have a lot more bone than the turkey and the pork shoulder
roast do, but its no big deal. So for a couple weeks he's getting a
lot of bone and then a couple weeks he won't.

Nothing particularly special about pork butts and beef chuck roasts.
If they're nice meaty cuts, go for it.

I don't usually consider feet of any sort (pig, cow, chicken) to be
part of a meal. I give them for entertainment. Some may factor them
into the bulk of the diet, but I don't. I don't really feed enough of
them to make a difference. Oxtail is another treat in Diesel's world.
Again, some may feed them as part of the actual diet. Whether its
safe to feed or not depends on the dog. I probably wouldn't give
anything that involves small bones to a dog until I'm sure of how he
eats. Gulpers I'd say no way. Diesel was a gulper when I first
started feeding him raw, but he's since figured out that chewing
things works much better. Now I can give him pretty much anything and
he's fine with it.

Tripe at the supermarket is bad. Its all bleached and devoid of
anything beneficial. Don't bother.

Maggie
Diesel, SDIT

Messages in this topic (19)
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2a. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:53 pm ((PDT))

well... i WAS excited... thanks for bursting my bubble!

just kidding. :) i guess i'm just looking forward to being in a more
open environment when it comes to dog health. i know that at least
the daycare centers in LA accept and will feed raw diets, bones and
all. at my old place of work, i caught my supervisor carefully going
through a can of wet food, picking out all the pressure-cooked bones,
which were about the consistency of mashed potatoes. just because of
our "no bones" policy. i had to laugh.

i've got a list of "holistic" vets in my new neighborhood, and fingers
crossed, one of them will be like your awesome vet!

kiss frosty for me!!

tammy & grover

Messages in this topic (12)
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3a. Re: In memory of Harley 10/26/97 thru 07/27/07
Posted by: "joseandbrenda1" joseandbrenda1@yahoo.com joseandbrenda1
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:54 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cornerstone_bullmastiffs"
<cornerstone_bullmastiffs@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Harley,
>
> Momma's gonna miss you, you precious girl. I have never had anyone
> love me as unconditionally as you have over the past 10yrs of your
> beautiful life. You have taught me more about life than any school
> book or classroom. The world would be a better place if more people
> were like you. You were there for me through my first marriage, my
> divorce, moving to Peru and then to Tennessee and then getting
> married again. You took it all with quiet strength and grace and
> stood beside me and loved me through it all, even when I didn't
> deserve it. I will never have children and you were the closest
I'll
> ever have. We have shared so much joy and laughter over the years
and
> have even shared a few tears. You are my heart and soul and my best
> friend. The void your absence has left will never be filled,
Harley.
> I love you so much. It only been a few hours since you went to be
> with God and my heart aches to see you again. The house feels empty
> and you weren't there to greet me at the door. I already miss the
way
> your fur feels and even your smell. I miss the way you get so
excited
> to see me the you fall over and do a happy dance. If only humans
> could communicate that well..... I take comfort in knowing you are
> not in anymore more pain and you have no allergies and you can
> breathe! Best of you don't have to take anymore pills! I find it no
> coincedence that the word DOG is GOD spelled backwards. You were
the
> mirror image of everything He stands for: strength, grace, love,
> forgiveness......I thank God for every moment spent with you Boo-
> bear. What a blessing you have been to me. God sent me an Angel
here
> on earth and it came with brown fur and four legs. I can't thank
Him
> enough for sharing you with me. I can't wait to see you again. Some
> day I know you'll meet me at the pearly gates! Momma loves you Baby
> girl!!
> Your Momma,
> Cheryl
>
Dear Cheryl
My heart goes out to you for the loss of your baby. I myself, have
two little angels that are getting up there in age, and I know they
will have to leave me one day. I can completely understand the
feelings in your message that touched my heart because of the love I
have for my pups. I was especially touched by the way you related how
Harley was the mirror image of what God stands for. That is so true
in all our beloved pets. May you find comfort knowing your baby girl
has made her way back to heaven with all the other angels up there.

Brenda

Messages in this topic (3)
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4.1. Re: Chicken feet
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:02 pm ((PDT))

so I take they are not expensive. Will check tomorrow when i go meat
shopping. i will go to a less valued store and see what they have for a
buck a pound. thank you.
Cheryl
PS If yahoo didn't add so much crap we wouldn't have do so much to a
message. i.e. cropping.

costrowski75 wrote:
> Cheryl <parkbunny@...> wrote:
> how much meat is on one of those
>
>> little things though? how many for your 10 pound cat on the chicken
>>
> feet?
>
>

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Messages in this topic (28)
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5a. Re: older dog
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:03 pm ((PDT))

I see so many people saying young old I thought it had something to do
with it. so why all the hoopla about vegetables being in kibble?
Name: Cheryl
message croped. lol

Sandee Lee wrote:
> Why would you want to feed vegetables to a carnivore? It's just as
> convenient to feed a chicken quarter!
>
>

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Messages in this topic (15)
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5b. Re: older dog
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:20 pm ((PDT))

Cheryl,

I don't know what you are asking? You don't want veggies regardless of what
you feed. Dogs don't eat veggies.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cheryl" <parkbunny@verizon.net>

> I see so many people saying young old I thought it had something to do
> with it. so why all the hoopla about vegetables being in kibble?
> Name: Cheryl
> message croped. lol
>
>
>
>
> Sandee Lee wrote:
> > Why would you want to feed vegetables to a carnivore?

Messages in this topic (15)
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5c. Re: older dog
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:38 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/27/2007 6:05:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
parkbunny@verizon.net writes:

Can't we use it for the vegetable that
is in there? and convenience?

****your dog doesn't need veggies, and convenience is the downfall of modern
society, we even throw away family members when they become inconvenient these
days.

dogs/wolves are CARNIVORES, they do NOT need nor do they have the ability to
derive any nutritional benefit from vegetable matter, no matter how you
prepare it for them.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (15)
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5d. Re: older dog
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:28 pm ((PDT))

so why all the hoopla about vegetables being in kibble?

Hi Cheryl,
If you are asking about why pet food makers make a big deal about the
fact that their pet food has veggies in it and claim that it is
healthy, it is because they are trying to advertise and sell a
product. Their claims are based on sales not nutrition. People see
their pets as their kids, and the pet food industry capitalizes on the
notion that we should feed our pets with all the same things that
supposedly make us healthy, wealthy and wise-only in a crushed down,
heated up doom nugget form. Vets endorse the idea, and so big
business profits and pets suffer. If that isn't what you meant, sorry
for the "where did that come from" answer.KathyM

Messages in this topic (15)
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6a. Re: Refusing organs
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:04 pm ((PDT))

Join the club, Erica! Funny thing, but the consensus seems to be
that the texture is a turn-off. Regarding liver, people have
suggested freezing in little bits, drying or searing. Searing
worked for my dog, and a little competition frome some dogs I watch,
all conspiring to cause him to eat those organs! On the other hand,
my cat, who also disliked the texture, now chooses the organs FIRST
over all the other food offered. Caviar, it's all caviar!

Lynne

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
>
> I offered it a third time
> for dinner, and he continued to refuse. I'm concerned that I
won't be
> able to incorporate organs. Any suggestions?
> Thanks,
> Erica
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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7.1. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:04 pm ((PDT))

are you saying when you feed raw they don't eat twice a day either?
Cheryl

>

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Messages in this topic (30)
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7.2. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:14 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/27/2007 8:09:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
parkbunny@verizon.net writes:

since feeding raw changes the stooling, how often do they go when on
this type of plan.???

Cheryl,

my dogs went for a couple days with no "output" when we first started.. then
went directly into constipation because i started feeding stuff that was far
too bony..

once i got it figured out and got the meat to bone ratio figured out.. for
the most part, you never really quit adjusting.. they mostly poop about once a
day.. sometimes less. Sometimes if i screw up and feed too much liver or
kidneys (in one notable case) they go far more often than once a day and i get no
sleep.. lol.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (30)
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7.3. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:18 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/27/2007 11:12:37 AM Pacific Standard Time,
parkbunny@verizon.net writes:

I'm counting this chicken piece and a Natures Variety breakfast.

cheryl,

What is nature's variety? is that one of those bone and veggie raw patties
that cause digestive upset?

sounds like you're feeding way too much bone.. get a chicken, whack it into
meal sized hunks.. some with bone and some without if you've got a small dog,
most of my dogs eat a whole or a half chicken as a meal, so there really isn't
any need of smaller hunks without bone.

no need to drag out a calculator.. feed MOSTLY meat.. a little bone, and a
little organ meat.. and you've got it. No need for veggies, or premade patties,
or additives.

Catherine R.

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7.4. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:25 pm ((PDT))

ty Catherine.
Cheryl

>

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Messages in this topic (30)
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7.5. how often to feed (was Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:27 pm ((PDT))

You can feed as often as you like. Many people on the list feed twice
a day. On the other end of the continuum is people who feed big meals
every few (or several) days (to mimic how wolves would hunt and gorge
in the wild). Then there's everything in between. One benefit of
feeding less often is you can feed bigger, more complicated hunks of
food that are more engaging, more of a workout, great for dental
hygiene-types of things. I can accomplish this pretty well by feeding
once a day or every other day. You can search the archives for "gorge"
or "gorge/fast" if you're interested in more info, too.

If your dog is used to twice a day and you want to reduce the
frequency, you might want to gradually increase the size of one meal
and decrease the other til it's non-existent, and so on... But if two
meals is working well for you, it's totally fine!

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cheryl <parkbunny@...> wrote:
>
> are you saying when you feed raw they don't eat twice a day either?
> Cheryl

Messages in this topic (30)
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7.6. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:31 pm ((PDT))

Hi Catherine.
I am going to write what is in a NV Raw Frozen Diet bag of food. I know
folks this is an all meat list. I'm trying to understand that
I just want to know why this is also not considered in your RAW terms as
a raw diet also.
These are the ingredients. 95% lamb, liver and Raw ground bone. Grain free
Lamb, lamb liver, raw ground lamb bone, lamb heart, lamb kidney, apples,
carrots butternut squash, Ground flaxseed, Chicken eggs, Broccoli,
Lettuce, Spinach, Dried kelp, Apple cider vinegar, Parsley, honey,Salmon
oil, olive oil, blueberries, alfalfa sprouts, persimmons, duck eggs,
pheasant eggs, quail eggs, Rosemary, sage and clove. if it didn't have
the veggies would it meet your raw standards?

so why is this also considered none carnivorous?

>

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Messages in this topic (30)
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7.7. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:20 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/27/2007 10:33:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
parkbunny@verizon.net writes:

apples,
carrots butternut squash, Ground flaxseed, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Dried
kelp, Apple cider vinegar, Parsley, honey,olive oil, blueberries, alfalfa
sprouts, persimmons, Rosemary, sage and clove. if it didn't have
the veggies would it meet your raw standards?

Cheryl,

no.. simple answer.

first.. everything in that list of ingredients is NOT appropriate for
CARNIVORES.

Second, some of those things can cause harm. Some are known allergens and
kelp is known to inhibit thyroid function.

raw food should NOT be ground.. one of the major benefits of feeding raw prey
model is the whole body workout, especially the teeth cleaning from ripping
and tearing and crunching the whole meat and bones.

Catherine R.

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8a. Re: Windfall
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:04 pm ((PDT))

So difficult to get over the yuck factor of this.... I picture a pyr
whose face fur is red/brown now. I WANT to try this but it seems so
gross.....

Lynne

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "halojo45" <hanne@...> wrote:
>
> > When picking up fresh tongue from the slaughter house, I was able
to
> score about 10 (TEN) hogs' heads (free of charge) . My Pyr girl
is lying right beside her crate, still guarding her left-overs.
>
> Hanne
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: Windfall
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:12 pm ((PDT))

> My heart welled with joy watching these two beasts attack the
> heads ....

Hi Hanne,
I know exactly how you felt. My first gorge meal for my 3 was whole
turkeys at Thanksgiving. After that I found a slaughterhouse and
brought home 3 cow heads-like you, free of charge. At first my
aussie/bcx growled at it, but my lab, who eats anything- anytime
anywhere- chomped right in. As they ate, I felt about as proud and
excited as i did the first time my now 18 year old son said "mama."
Go figure. KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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8c. Re: Windfall
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:26 pm ((PDT))

> So difficult to get over the yuck factor of this

Hi Lynne,
The whole experience use to be outside of my comfort zone too, but you
dig in deep and just do what you gotta do. Now I figure that a dead
cow is a dead cow and that the burgers that people bbq on the grill
and the head my dogs are really and truly enjoying eating by ripping
and pulling and twisting and turning and tearing to eat are all part
of the same thing-a dead cow. How much better it is to use the whole
animal than to bury it in a landfill somewhere. KathyM who says
just go for it because your dog will LOVE it.

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Re: Buffalo Heart
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:10 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/27/2007 10:16:30 AM Pacific Standard Time,
onejoyfulmoose@yahoo.com writes:

Just feed Buffalo Heart to my 2 Leos last night. The bitch loved it
and the male said No Way Mom. I tried cutting it into smaller chunks,
hand feeding and he'd take it, roll it around in his mouth and lay it
back down at my feet.

Carol,

As much as i suggest meat variety, i have to admit that i just don't see
enough difference between beef heart and buffalo heart to justify the difference
in price. And if you have a dog that can tell the difference and doesn't like
buffalo heart, beef heart is cheap and good... no need to sweat the small
stuff.

Catherine R.

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10a. How much raw food should I be feeding a day?
Posted by: "brandy smolen" msbrsmolen@yahoo.com msbrsmolen
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:14 pm ((PDT))

Can someone please give me some examples of what and HOW MUCH raw food I should be giving my 12 week old american bulldog? She a fast growing large breed and I don't want her to go to fast but I think I'm starving her right now.
And if anyone has a good book to recommend that would be great too. At this point I am getting so frusterated that I am tempted to feed her kibble until I know more about this diet and the guidlines how to feed her.
PLEASE HELP!
Brandy

---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

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10b. Re: How much raw food should I be feeding a day?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:22 pm ((PDT))

Brandy,

Feed her lots and lots of meat, a little bone and some organs. Here are a
few recent puppy feeding messages.....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135757
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135847
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/137170

No kibble, OK???????

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "brandy smolen" <msbrsmolen@yahoo.com>

> Can someone please give me some examples of what and HOW MUCH raw food I
should be giving my 12 week old american bulldog? She a fast growing large
breed and I don't want her to go to fast but I think I'm starving her right
now.
> And if anyone has a good book to recommend that would be great too. At
this point I am getting so frusterated that I am tempted to feed her kibble
until I know more about this diet and the guidlines how to feed her.

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: How much raw food should I be feeding a day?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:22 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/27/2007 9:14:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
msbrsmolen@yahoo.com writes:

Can someone please give me some examples of what and HOW MUCH raw food I
should be giving my 12 week old american bulldog? She a fast growing large breed
and I don't want her to go to fast but I think I'm starving her right now.

Brandy,

you expect your baby girl to be about 70ish lbs as an adult? maybe 80?

so take 80 lbs and figure 3% of 80 lbs = the approximate amount she should be
fed per day.. divided into 2 or 3 meals per day till she's around 10 months -
1 year.

Catherine R.

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11a. Re: Small dogs
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:46 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/27/2007 8:31:13 AM Pacific Standard Time,
parkbunny@verizon.net writes:

where do you all get the different meat products.?? i.e. quail, rabbit?
Where do you live that sells it? do you have to go to an ethnic store
or do you buy them on the internet?

Cheryl,

rabbits are often sold in pet stores as reptile food, both dead/frozen and
alive. don't buy the living ones for wolf chow..

quail and game hens i often find in hispanic grocery stores in boxes of 6 or
12. Usually for less than $2 lb. regular frying chickens are less expensive
and the exact same thing as a game hen, just larger.

also in the hispanic grocery stores i find nice hunky pork for $1 lb or less,
and a great variety of organs from pork and beef. Also various lamb and goat
parts.

in the asian grocery stores i find lots of pork parts, especially the organs
that the other grocery stores don't carry. Also a great variety of fish for a
variety of different prices. One asian store i like to shop at but rarely
make the trip sells salmon heads and scrap for $1 lb in 1 lb bags.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (10)
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11b. Re: Small dogs
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:32 pm ((PDT))

okay. I guess I'll be scouting them out. i have an idea of where they
are but I didn't know they had a different variety of meat then the
non-ethnic stores. I just thought they had more of the found, i.e.
grocery's found from their nationality but did not think about the meat
part of it. see how blind I am? I just never had reason to go to those
stores. Thank you. Cheryl

Morledzep@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/27/2007 8:31:13 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> parkbunny@verizon.net writes:
>
> where do you all get the different meat products.?? i.e. quail, rabbit?
> Where do you live that sells it? do you have to go to an ethnic store
> or do you buy them on the internet?
>
>
>
> Cheryl,
>
> rabbits are often sold in pet stores as reptile food, both dead/frozen and
> alive. don't buy the living ones for wolf chow..
>
>

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Messages in this topic (10)
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