Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 11846

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Vomiting up all raw food?
From: v_rod_or
1b. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
From: Carol Santangelo
1c. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
From: mwood8402
1d. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
From: Laurie Swanson
1e. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: help for IBS
From: lhmcmaken
2b. Re: help for IBS
From: ginny wilken

3a. protein percentage?
From: temy1102
3b. Re: protein percentage?
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: protein percentage?
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3d. Re: protein percentage?
From: temy1102
3e. Re: protein percentage?
From: temy1102
3f. Re: protein percentage?
From: Sandee Lee
3g. Re: protein percentage?
From: Jai
3h. Re: protein percentage?
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Question from Newbie
From: delcaste

5a. Re: Beef Trachea
From: Marjorie Trebino
5b. Re: Beef Trachea
From: cresco299

6a. Another (less severe) vomiting question
From: millser25
6b. Re: Another (less severe) vomiting question
From: Laurie Swanson
6c. Re: Another (less severe) vomiting question
From: pet.wellness

7. First Day on Fish a Success...
From: delcaste

8a. feeding game birds to hunting dogs
From: blacty
8b. Re: feeding game birds to hunting dogs
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: Morledzep@aol.com

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Vomiting up all raw food?
Posted by: "v_rod_or" v_rod_or@yahoo.com v_rod_or
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:13 pm ((PDT))

We started feeding our nine-year-old Dal raw about 3.5 months ago.
He's been eating a variety of chicken, pork, and beef, and organ
meats, with an appropriate level of bone and in as "natural" a state
as possible, and has done great...until last week.

A week ago yesterday, I fed Spike a meal of pork "country ribs" -
mostly meat, with some bone - something I have fed him many times
without incident. He clearly had issues, and ran around the yard
eating grass, throwing up, and dry-heaving. I was up all night with
him as he continued to do this.

He seemed okay the next day but I didn't feed him as a precaution.
The following day I fed a split chicken breast, intending to ease him
back into eating. He puked that up almost immediately, too.

Since then I've tried feeding him various things, but everything raw
comes right back up. He did eat a piece of beef liver that he'd
previously vomited up (eww), but otherwise no luck with raw. He's
kept down some (cooked) sliced turkey, and some bits of leftover
chicken from our dinners, but I have been reluctant to feed him a lot
of cooked meat.

His "mother" is freaked out and wants to buy a bag of Science Diet.
Any thoughts on how best to proceed? I don't want to go back to
feeding Spike dog food, but also don't want him to starve!

Thanks!

Rod & Spike
Eugene, OR

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
Posted by: "Carol Santangelo" carol.santangelo@gmail.com santangelo_carol
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

Has he been relieving himself normally? Or is nothing going in AND nothing
coming out? Is he acting normal other than not being able to hold food
down?

Carol

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
Posted by: "mwood8402" mwood8402@hotmail.com mwood8402
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:44 pm ((PDT))

Ack! I definitely don't think Science Diet will help at all. Perhaps
he got into something he shouldn't have? I doubt it's the raw, since
he has been doing well for several months now.

Maybe some slippery elm bark powder would help smooth things over?

Your boy won't starve. When my Sheltie was on kibble, he would
routinely puke for two days straight and wouldn't eat for 3 or
sometimes 4 days total.

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "v_rod_or" <v_rod_or@...> wrote:
> His "mother" is freaked out and wants to buy a bag of Science Diet.
> Any thoughts on how best to proceed? I don't want to go back to
> feeding Spike dog food, but also don't want him to starve!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Rod & Spike
> Eugene, OR
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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1d. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:46 pm ((PDT))

Aren't country ribs those ones with lots of meat and the bones cut into
little, sharp, pointy pieces? I would be concerned about one of those
causing a problem. Hopefully some more knowledgeable folks will
reply. Hope you get it sorted out soon.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "v_rod_or" <v_rod_or@...> wrote:

> A week ago yesterday, I fed Spike a meal of pork "country ribs" -
> mostly meat, with some bone - something I have fed him many times
> without incident. He clearly had issues, and ran around the yard
> eating grass, throwing up, and dry-heaving. I was up all night with
> him as he continued to do this.
>

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:49 pm ((PDT))

"Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> Aren't country ribs those ones with lots of meat and the bones cut
into
> little, sharp, pointy pieces? I would be concerned about one of
those
> causing a problem.
*****
All depends on the dog's approach to raw eating and the human's
insanity level but I prefer to not feed country style ribs because the
shoulder blade bone is sliced into narrow, sharp, daggerlike sections
that are just the right shape for precipitious gulping.

A neat and tidy eater--one that does well on turkey necks for example--
would probably be fine with country style "ribs".

Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: help for IBS
Posted by: "lhmcmaken" lhmcmaken@yahoo.com lhmcmaken
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:41 pm ((PDT))

okay guys. I will get some chicken today and feed it to her without
skin. see if she will firm up. i love my dogs and these are two
special harls, but with her emotional baggage from being a rescue and
his from being over bred, it is a constant struggle to keep them well.
thanks
take care,
lynda

Messages in this topic (11)
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2b. Re: help for IBS
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:42 pm ((PDT))

On Jul 26, 2007, at 9:37 AM, metra_co wrote:

> would love to go raw for both dogs but with her diarreaha I am just
> afraid to.

Pardon me, but what have you to lose by trying it? The situation you
are in is absolutely horrible, and unfair to the dogs. On the other
hand, many of us - and that's "many" out of 9000 - have had all sorts
of digestive issues resolve on raw. The little upsets your read about
as folks get started are 99% due to operator error, and are easily
adjusted out of the picture. Dogs with chronic digestive stuff are
much more stable on raw, and more easily managed if not stable.

My own opinion is that both your dogs are carrying a load of chronic
impairment which is the big behind-the-scenes cause of their
instability. But the first step is to give them food that is
appropriate, nourishing, and non-irritating - and that's raw. What
else do you need to hear? We'll tell you. Those guys need help.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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3a. protein percentage?
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:42 pm ((PDT))

i KNOW that this has to be in the archives somewhere, but every time i
search for it, it comes up with too many results and wants me to
narrow it down. and i'm having difficulty coming up with the magical
set of words that will do that.

but how much protein approximately is in raw meat? i think it was
something like 30%? i remember that it is significantly lower than
than the protein content of kibble, right? i was hoping this would be
in raw myths, since many people think that meat is pure protein and it
will hurt your dog's pancreas, but it wasn't.

going for a visit to the vet today. trying to prepare myself with
good answers to any possible objections he may have to my dog's diet.

tammy & grover

Messages in this topic (8)
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3b. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:07 pm ((PDT))

"temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@...> wrote:
> but how much protein approximately is in raw meat? i think it was
> something like 30%? i remember that it is significantly lower than
> than the protein content of kibble, right? i was hoping this would be
> in raw myths, since many people think that meat is pure protein and it
> will hurt your dog's pancreas, but it wasn't.
>
> going for a visit to the vet today. trying to prepare myself with
> good answers to any possible objections he may have to my dog's diet.
*****
It's generally less than 30%.
Here's the USDA nutrient database. You can look up any meat you are
feeding or want to feed. In fact, if you think it would help, print
out some options for your vet to read.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

You might also tell your vet about www.rawfed.com so he can read
through the Myth section on his own.

I don't recommend trying to out-science a determined vet unless one
really has the story down. Better to not bring it up (why do people
feel they must bring up diet?).

You can't compare dry weight contents to as-fed. You have to make them
both dry weight or both as-fed, and since vets have been taught
(insofar as they've been taught anything about nutrition) dry weight,
you'll have to convert and do you really want to go there?

I suggest if you bring it up and you have to respond with something,
ask him to write down all his concerns and you'll get back to him.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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3c. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:28 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/26/2007 2:14:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
tammy.a.jp@gmail.com writes:

going for a visit to the vet today. trying to prepare myself with
good answers to any possible objections he may have to my dog's diet.

Tammy,

We have/had a vet in AZ that had on his diagnostic questions a spot that said
"Diet" it had Iams, Science Diet and "needs improvement". Every visit they
would ask the same question.. "what do you feed your dog?" and our answer was
always the same "dog food".

And another time we went to a different vet with our old man wolfdog, Jerry
Lee. The vet didn't ask any history questions, just got his weight, measured
him, listened to his vitals and checked his teeth and looked at us and said
"he's quite a specimen, he's in great shape for 7 year old shepherd." Our
response was "that's wonderful news.. especially since he's 15." (Jerry Lee passed
shortly after his 18th birthday)

It's seriously none of your vet's business what you're feeding. You are
paying him to diagnose a problem. Or even for regular wellness visits and
checkups (which we don't do).

IF and only IF your dog has a digestive issue.. vomitting, full blown
diarrhea, possible poisoning.. then and only then it MAY be necessary to discuss diet
with your vet. And then it's still an iffy situation, the vet probably only
needs to know what was the last thing the dog ate before it got sick.

hope i didn't rant too much..
Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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3d. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:46 pm ((PDT))

thanks for the link chris! very useful. yea, i definitely don't want
to out-science him since... my head for science is not that great.
but he always asks what my dog's diets are, and since i've started
raw, we haven't seen him. we're back now, and he actually didn't ask
this time, ironically enough. he did mention that everyone is looking
quite fine and dandy. since it was my first vet visit since raw, i
was kind of dreading something like, "this dog is about to drop dead,
get me some kibble stat!" but now, even more, i feel confident about
what i'm doing. thanks to all the help from everyone here!

tammy & grover

Messages in this topic (8)
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3e. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:03 pm ((PDT))

no, you didn't rant too much, i totally understand what you mean. but
should i ever be put into a situation where i feel i need to defend
myself, i just want to be prepared. i know that from reading about
other people's experiences, vets will sometimes use the raw diet as a
scapegoat for any illnesses, and so i try to avoid the topic with my
vet as well. however, since i've started raw, i haven't seen him, and
he usually always asks what brand of food i'm feeding, how much, etc.
but i'm excited because i'm moving to an area that has several
holistic vets available and hopefully we can begin seeing one that is
understands why i feed raw.

tammy & grover

Messages in this topic (8)
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3f. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:32 pm ((PDT))

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
Some examples:
100g beef chuck
19% protein/62% water

100g pork shoulder
17% protein/62% water

100g chicken
18% protein/66% water

100g domestic rabbit
20% protein/73% water

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@gmail.com>

Messages in this topic (8)
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3g. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "Jai" JRedwing@alltel.net onesupercat
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:00 pm ((PDT))

Thank you for this information.
Jai
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandee Lee" <rlee@plix.com>
To: <rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] protein percentage?

> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
> Some examples:
> 100g beef chuck
> 19% protein/62% water
>
> 100g pork shoulder
> 17% protein/62% water
>
> 100g chicken
> 18% protein/66% water
>
> 100g domestic rabbit
> 20% protein/73% water
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@gmail.com>
>
>
> but how much protein approximately is in raw meat? i think it was
> something like 30%? i remember that it is significantly lower than
> than the protein content of kibble, right? i was hoping this would be
> in raw myths, since many people think that meat is pure protein and it
> will hurt your dog's pancreas, but it wasn't.
>
>
>
>
> All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying
> on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated
> with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You
> agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal
> responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs,
> cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you
> don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.20/919 - Release Date: 7/26/2007
> 9:56 AM
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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3h. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

"temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@...> wrote:
> i
> was kind of dreading something like, "this dog is about to drop dead,
> get me some kibble stat!"
*****
This is too funny!
Really, it sounds like something Groucho Marx might say, were he still
with us.

Good to know the visit was uneventful, a let down even.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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4a. Re: Question from Newbie
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

I've been feeding raw now for about 4 months? They will eat ANYTHING.
I feed twice a day sometimes only once if the portion is big. They're
20 & 21 pds so 6 and 7 ounces should do it right? The bad gulper,
Violet, will use her paws to tear but tries to swallow the big pieces
anyway and throws them back up. The other pug eats I didn't make
myself clear. He just won't touch it eith his paws. He chews and
chews and chews and goes round and round....I guess I'll have to feed
the gulper an entire chicken. Thank you Laurie, I am hoping that with
time they'll take it easy.

Silvina and the pugs

In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> If it's small enough for them to gulp, then it's not big enough! >
> If you give your dogs bigger, more complicated things they have to
work
> at and rip the meat off of, their stomachs will be more ready for
> what's coming in, and it will be in more manageable pieces going
down.
> That should help with the vomiting.
> Laurie
>
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Beef Trachea
Posted by: "Marjorie Trebino" mtrebino39@hotmail.com marjoriettt
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

Jennifer, I was wondering the same thing. The one thing I did hear is that
you might want to grind it up as it is very tough. I would be interested to
know if everyone thinks you should grind it. It is a muscle? Margie

Messages in this topic (7)
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5b. Re: Beef Trachea
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:44 pm ((PDT))

> Should I feed a whole meal of just trachea or should I add it to one
of their other meals

I'm no expert at this myself, but I have been feeding one of my dogs
beef trachea for two weeks now. I typically cut the trachea into
quarters and give it every other day or so. There's no need to grind
it up. My 30lb aussie shepard loves them to death! It typically takes
her 10-15 minutes just to sit down and chew through it. I feed it
along side what ever else she was getting that day.

She'll choose the trachea over a bone day.

Jeff

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Another (less severe) vomiting question
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:45 pm ((PDT))

My 18 month old GSD has been on raw for about a year. The last couple
of weeks he's been eating grass and vomiting it up in the morning and
evening before feedings. Just in the last few days he's started just
all out vomiting with no apparent provocation. Nothing comes up but
some yellowish foamy clear liquid (maybe a third of a cup). While
walking him yesterday, he kept making these noises like vomit was
surprising him in his throat and he was swallowing it back down.
His poo looks good. Although he did have one event of violently
bloody diarrhea two weeks ago that cleared up with he next poo.
He remains happy, spirited, and full of energy.

Have an of you experienced this? Is it something to worry about?

Thanks,
Erica

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Another (less severe) vomiting question
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:21 pm ((PDT))

That sounds to me like the bile vomit issue. Did you change his
feeding times at all? Sounds like he's expecting his meals a bit early
and his stomach is all prepared and when the food doesn't come fast
enough, his system ejects all the bile. I would try feeding more
randomly, and perhaps less frequently (you could try going to once a
day)--it worked for me and countless others!

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: Another (less severe) vomiting question
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:27 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
>
> My 18 month old GSD has been on raw for about a year. The last couple
> of weeks he's been eating grass and vomiting it up in the morning and
> evening before feedings. Just in the last few days he's started just
> all out vomiting with no apparent provocation. Nothing comes up but
> some yellowish foamy clear liquid (maybe a third of a cup). While
> walking him yesterday, he kept making these noises like vomit was
> surprising him in his throat and he was swallowing it back down.

Yes, my dog has digestive problems like you describe - vomiting "in
his mouth," vomiting a yellowish, foamy liquid (waterbrash), eating
grass. I attribute it to immune problems likely caused by too many
vaccinations. I have also been advised by a conventional vet to give
him 50 mg of Zantac (half a 100mg tab.) He rarely needs the Zantac and
has improved a lot since we switched to raw and worked with a homeopathic.
Pamela

www.pet-wellness-update.com
***Sign our petition to exempt sick and senior pets in Texas from
rabies vaccinations***

Messages in this topic (3)
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7. First Day on Fish a Success...
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:46 pm ((PDT))

I got some fish the other day (Tilapia) and fed one to the dogs today.
At first, nobody would touch it they just smelled it and looked at me.
I started cutting very small pieces of the fish and two of them ate it
right up! (Thanks Chris!) Mostly 'cause they were watching each other
and no one wanted to be outdone :) My gulper ate the most. The
third "child" licked and gummed and finally wanted nothing to do with
it. The Pittie ran off with the head and laid by it for a while but I
had to take it away after @ an hour....Maybe next time I can just plunk
the fish down and they'll eat away.

Silvina and the pugs

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. feeding game birds to hunting dogs
Posted by: "blacty" Ty@wetlandsod.com blacty
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:47 pm ((PDT))

I was thinking of using my game bird carcases to feed to my bird dogs.
Do any of you have any experience doing this? Would I have to worry
about my dogs developing a taste for them to where they will eat the
bird they are supposed to retrieve?

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: feeding game birds to hunting dogs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:31 pm ((PDT))

"blacty" <Ty@...> wrote:
>
> I was thinking of using my game bird carcases to feed to my bird dogs.
> Do any of you have any experience doing this? Would I have to worry
> about my dogs developing a taste for them to where they will eat the
> bird they are supposed to retrieve?
*****
If your hunting dog eats the game it's suppose to hunt, that's a
training issue not a raw food issue. A trained hunting dog understands
it may not eat its job. I recommend you review your dog's basic
training to make sure both of you are clear on the concept.

My retrievers are trained to retrieve the bird in market condition and
to sit to flush (although sometimes I do have to yell "siddown!"). My
big Lab retrieves live bitsy baby birds and will not--no way, never, uh-
uh--eat rabbit or whole fish. My heathen golden bitch that eats whole
baby goats and rabbits and chickens will kill but otherwise leave
untouched bunnies that she manages to catch.

It may be that in moments of extreme temptation you dog might break or
kill a wounded bird, but I also see this in kibblefed dogs. Since it's
a time honored practice to give the dog heads and guts or the carcass
after breasting out a duck, my guess is your fears are unfounded IF
your hunting buddy is properly trained.

If you are still concerned, don't feed the carcasses.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:10 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/26/2007 9:24:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mwood8402@hotmail.com writes:

Many times, "low
end"=better deals imo. Though I shop around everywhere for good
deals. I don't know why you find that offensive.

Melissa,

i'm not going to appologize.. "low end" to me means second class.. not as
good.. and even lowly community college students should have a better vocabulary
and be able to find less offensive ways to express themselves.

Apparently my sensitivity isn't shared by the rest of the group.. but i find
prejudice in any form offensive. sorry for taking this so far off topic..

Catherine R. (slapping my wrist so ChrisO won't yell at me)

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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Feed Pets Raw Food

Thursday, July 26, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11846

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