[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11849

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. older dog
From: Doris Siefker
1b. Re: older dog
From: nwohiopma

2a. Re: Question from Newbie
From: mwood8402

3a. Re: Constipation
From: Margaret Martell
3b. Re: Constipation
From: Cheryl

4a. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: mwood8402

5. ADMIN:Cooked Bones
From: GWB

6a. Small dogs
From: cosmosis62
6b. Re: Small dogs
From: Kelly
6c. Re: Small dogs
From: Michelle LaFay
6d. Re: Small dogs
From: Cheryl
6e. Re: Small dogs
From: Kelly

7. fresh meat
From: doreenchui

8a. Okay, how much diarreha is too much for a 9 week GS pup?
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com
8b. Re: Okay, how much diarreha is too much for a 9 week GS pup?
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: cooked bones
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Poo less, pee more
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: protein percentage?
From: Laura Atkinson

12a. Re: Chicken feet
From: Cheryl
12b. Re: Chicken feet
From: Cheryl
12c. Re: Chicken feet
From: costrowski75

13. Chicken is working
From: Cheryl

14a. rawfeeding
From: Greg Cobb
14b. Re: rawfeeding
From: costrowski75

15. muscles building
From: doreenchui

Messages
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1a. older dog
Posted by: "Doris Siefker" dks7@cox.net dksiefker
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:25 am ((PDT))

I have a 8 1/2 yr old mini schnauzer who is on nature variety.
How do I start him on raw?
Any issue on starting one that's already a senior?
Doreen
___

I started my 10 year old collie mix on raw 6 weeks ago and he is doing fine.
I fed mostly chicken and now we are branching out to lamb and beef. He was
also on probiotic the entire time. My vet says switching diets is a little
harder for an older dog, so just keep an eye on him. In the beginning I had
to saute the raw chicken with a little bit of butter because he wouldn't
touch it.
Good luck.

Doris K. Siefker

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Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: older dog
Posted by: "nwohiopma" nwohiopma@yahoo.com nwohiopma
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:23 am ((PDT))

Hi Doreen,

I started my 13 y.o. Collie on raw last November. He suffers from
hypothyroid and mast cell cancer. He also had dry eye, but it went
away after being a raw for a few weeks, as well as his chronic dandruff.

I fed him the same as my 3 youngsters, and he adjusted quicker than
they did. I started with chicken leg quarters. Others here are more
qualified than I am to guide you, but I wouldn't hesitate to switch a
dog to raw due to age.

Candace and the 4 Collies

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "doreenchui" <doreenchui@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 8 1/2 yr old mini schnauzer who is on nature variety.
> How do I start him on raw?
> Any issue on starting one that's already a senior?
> Doreen
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Question from Newbie
Posted by: "mwood8402" mwood8402@hotmail.com mwood8402
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:25 am ((PDT))

If they are maintaining weight on 6-7 oz then it is fine. Personally,
I have to feed my 22 lb Sheltie 12-14 oz per day for him to maintain
weight, so it varies.

Go ahead and feed whole or half chicken. Just take it up when they
have had enough and feed it at the next meal. Hopefully that helps you.

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
>
> I've been feeding raw now for about 4 months? They will eat ANYTHING.
> I feed twice a day sometimes only once if the portion is big. They're
> 20 & 21 pds so 6 and 7 ounces should do it right? >
> Silvina and the pugs

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Margaret Martell" zahrammm1@yahoo.com zahrammm1
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:55 am ((PDT))

Cheryl <parkbunny@verizon.net> wrote: Does feeding raw cause constipation?
Cheryl
******
It depends on the dog, it depends on what you're feeding the dog. Too much bone in the diet can cause constipation, which is easily fixed with adding boneless meats or organs if you really need to move things along...but that's for down the road once the dog has been fed raw for a little while and their systems are used to it. Too much too soon can result in runny stools, instead of constipation.
Margaret & Zahra.
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Messages in this topic (17)
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3b. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:08 am ((PDT))

since feeding raw changes the stooling, how often do they go when on
this type of plan.???
Cheryl

Sandee Lee wrote:
> Only if you feed too much bone.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "Cheryl" <parkbunny@verizon.net>
>
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (17)
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4a. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "mwood8402" mwood8402@hotmail.com mwood8402
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:55 am ((PDT))

An apology isn't necessary. I guess it's just a semantic thing. I
won't use the term again on this list, since it offends you so much.
My intent is not to offend. Keep in mind that it's hard to sense tone
in an email. Though I certainly got the drift of your community
college crack. I wish you wouldn't be so quick to judge.

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
> Melissa,
>
> i'm not going to appologize.. "low end" to me means second class..
not as
> good.. and even lowly community college students should have a better
vocabulary
> and be able to find less offensive ways to express themselves.
>
> Catherine R. (slapping my wrist so ChrisO won't yell at me)

Messages in this topic (17)
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5. ADMIN:Cooked Bones
Posted by: "GWB" chiksika@wowway.com kioqua
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:58 am ((PDT))

cooking bones is a painfully obvious OFF TOPIC discussion.

Take it elsewhere. No posts on that topic will be approved or acceptable.

Questions or comment??

rawfeeding-owner@yahoogroups.com

Please and thank you,

Gerry Brierley=mod guy

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Small dogs
Posted by: "cosmosis62" JLW05@aol.com cosmosis62
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:24 am ((PDT))

My dog is a toy breed. 12 lbs. Anyone able to recommend which raw
meaty bones their small breed dog does best with??
Jan

Messages in this topic (8)
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6b. Re: Small dogs
Posted by: "Kelly" kelism@gmail.com vt_stuff
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:08 am ((PDT))

On 7/27/07, cosmosis62 <JLW05@aol.com> wrote:
>
> My dog is a toy breed. 12 lbs. Anyone able to recommend which raw
> meaty bones their small breed dog does best with??

Chicken, duck, quail, rabbit.

Some pork bones might be soft enough and lamb ribs might be.

In other news: Should we have a FAQ? It seems like this question has come
up a lot lately.

Kelly

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Messages in this topic (8)
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6c. Re: Small dogs
Posted by: "Michelle LaFay" pawsitivelycaring@gmail.com mblafay
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:20 am ((PDT))

My 9lber does just fine with pretty much anything. We feed lots of leg
quarters and she handles these with ease even though she is missing a few
teeth. She will put a good dent in a turkey leg bone and has a blast with
beef and pork ribs. She was tickled pink when we had the deer carcass out
and gave it nearly as many scars as the big dogs did. She probably would
have enjoyed the pork shoulder but she never got that far, it was a pure
meaty meal for her since it was actually as big as her lol. She handles lamb
breast with no trouble.

On 7/27/07, cosmosis62 <JLW05@aol.com> wrote:
>
> My dog is a toy breed. 12 lbs. Anyone able to recommend which raw
> meaty bones their small breed dog does best with??
> Jan
>
>

--
Michelle LaFay
Pawsitively Caring Pet Sitting
http://www.pawsitivelycaring.com
pawsitivelycaring@gmail.com

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Messages in this topic (8)
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6d. Re: Small dogs
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:29 am ((PDT))

where do you all get the different meat products.?? i.e. quail, rabbit?
Where do you live that sells it? do you have to go to an ethnic store
or do you buy them on the internet?

Cheryl.. newbie,... green.. learning.. all that jazz. sorry I was
probably one of the ones that may have asked this question also but If i
am not exposed to these birds, I would not even know to ask.

Kelly wrote:
> On 7/27/07, cosmosis62 <JLW05@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> My dog is a toy breed. 12 lbs. Anyone able to recommend which raw
>> meaty bones their small breed dog does best with??
>>
>
>
> Chicken, duck, quail, rabbit.
>
> Some pork bones might be soft enough and lamb ribs might be.
>
> In other news: Should we have a FAQ? It seems like this question has come
> up a lot lately.
>
>
> Kelly
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (8)
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6e. Re: Small dogs
Posted by: "Kelly" kelism@gmail.com vt_stuff
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:55 am ((PDT))

On 7/27/07, Cheryl <parkbunny@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> where do you all get the different meat products.?? i.e. quail, rabbit?
>

I'm in Vermont. We don't have ethnic stores here (I believe we still have
most white population in the country). Quail comes from a local game bird
farm. They have a website and do sell online - I don't know the URL, but if
you google "Cavendish Game Birds" you should find it. They sell quail
breasts for restaurants and then sell the organs/frames/etc for cheap for
dogs. Yes, quail frames are boney...but I like it because it gives variety
to the type of bone they are eating and I can pair it with boneless meat,
tripe, or organs. Rabbit comes from either a local rabbit breeder or some
of the raw dog food places sell them (Bravo! & Omas?). I'd also recommend
the CarnivoreFeed-supplier list (or whatever the spelling is...look for it
on yahoogroups) and they can point you (hopefully) towards local suppliers
or co-ops.

--
Kelly

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Messages in this topic (8)
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7. fresh meat
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:25 am ((PDT))

do u need to freeze all meats before feeding?

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Okay, how much diarreha is too much for a 9 week GS pup?
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:26 am ((PDT))

Sambuca is 9 weeks old and has been raw feed for almost 2 weeks now. Well,
he had no diarreha in the beginning for about a week or so. Then I did
something stupid--I feed him different chicken that I noticed after the fact was
enhanced with up to 12% chicken broth--also I bought some liver at the same time
and then gave him . . oh about 2 Tbs--now I know that was way too much. Grrrr.
. anyway, that same day as you can imagine he got explosive diarreha. (I
switched back to the non-enhanced chicken he was eating previously and no more
liver) And this has been going on for three days; today is the fourth day of
it. He drinks water still and like to play, but I am worried this is too long
and maybe there is another issue underlying--perhaps worms etc.

The diarreha was more frequent and sudden in the beginning and now it has
slowed down alot but still explosive at times and no semi-solid or solid at all.
I did notice it is sometimes frothy and other times like water. Once I saw
it was white and all liquid. Sometimes dark; sometimes brown; sometimes
yellowish.

He had a vomitting episode only once during all this. The first time the
vomit was the same color as poop with bone in it and undigested chicken gizzards.
Horrid smell--like poop. I hope this is normal and not a back up. He
vomitted about 6 more times outside in the dark and under the porch so I couldn't
see it all. The last one I did see and it was just the typical yellow bile.
So the last one I was not too concerned.

Since then he hasn't done it again but the diarreha is still here. I did
give him SEBP 2X yesterday and once again this morning. I didn't have any ground
meat so I just mixed it with chicken blood and served it with his chicken
quarter and the other times I just mixed about a 1/2 tsp with a little water and
he lapped it right up. I hoped I did it right. I had been reading this is
the proper dosage but then later I saw someone posted that it should be mixed it
with a cup of water, boiled etc and then giving a 1 tsp. ???

I hope this diarreha is nothing serious and just a result of the two dietary
changes. How long should it last safely? Should I fast him for a day or two?
He already looks like he has lost weight so I hate to not feed him unless it
is for the best.

I am considering taking him to the holistic vet but I don't think she is open
today and each visit is about $160. Again, if this is serious I would take
him in a heartbeat and not think twice but if it is something that just takes
time, I can wait.

Thanks again for everything!!

Tamatha :)

P.S. I posted an email a few days ago to one group and only got one
response. My email gets full alot even when I clean it out a few times a day, so this
may be the problem. So if you responded to me previously I didn't get it and
I appologize for re-sending some of the same questions. :)




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A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

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his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

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Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Okay, how much diarreha is too much for a 9 week GS pup?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:05 am ((PDT))

Hllywoodcaper7@... wrote:
>
> Sambuca is 9 weeks old and has been raw feed for almost 2 weeks
now. Well,
> he had no diarreha in the beginning for about a week or so. Then I
did
> something stupid--I feed him different chicken that I noticed after
the fact was
> enhanced with up to 12% chicken broth--also I bought some liver at
the same time
> and then gave him . . oh about 2 Tbs--now I know that was way too
much. Grrrr.
> . anyway, that same day as you can imagine he got explosive
diarreha. (I
> switched back to the non-enhanced chicken he was eating previously
and no more
> liver) And this has been going on for three days; today is the
fourth day of
> it. He drinks water still and like to play, but I am worried this
is too long
> and maybe there is another issue underlying--perhaps worms etc.
*****
I doubt this is worms, though it might be other parasites; I doubt it
is a "back up". I don't think you should let this go on longer
assuming it will be okay. It will be okay eventually but he's a
little guy and this has been stressful on him. And you.

Time to see a vet. Don't worry about talking diet; if this problem
is somehow food related (I doubt that too) just say the kid got into
something. The point is to not get bogged down in accusations and
guilt. Get moving proactively now and worry about fault later, if
indeed there's blame to be laid, which I also doubt.

Let us know, okay?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: cooked bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:41 am ((PDT))

Cheryl <parkbunny@...> wrote:
>> Are pressure cooker cooked bones considered a type of cooked bone
that
> should not be fed? if so, there are recipes I see people feeding that
> use the pressure cooker and they say those bones are okay? Why is
that?
*****
Cooked bones are cooked bones. The difference is pressurecooked
chicken bones are wet-processed along with the rest of the bird into an
unrecognizable though edible sludge; bones cooked by any dry method
including being left out lose their moisture and become hard and
brittle and splintery.

People who do not want to feed commercial dog food but are not willing
to feed raw food cook their dogs' meals. Pressurecooking chicken is
one option for them. Chicken bones, AFAIK are the only bones that
safely sludgify; other naturally easy bones like pork do not self-
destruct when pressurecooked.

There's no reason to pressurecook a chicken when feeding a raw diet.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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10a. Re: Poo less, pee more
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:57 am ((PDT))

"doreenchui" <doreenchui@...> wrote:
>
> I noticed that since my whippet started on raw, he poo much much
lesser
> but pee much more.
*****
Pooping less is appropriate since you are feeding more digestible
food. But there's no reason for him to be peeing more unless you are
regularly feeding him highly salted food. If his diet is minimally
processed with no added salt and he's not getting salt from other
sources, you may want to discuss this issue with a vet.

> When he eats more meat, say 400gm, that is when he is in mood, his
poo
> is soft but when he eats about 150/200gm, his poo is alright.
> Is this correct?
*****
Neither are wrong, let me put it that way. What these results tell
me is that 400g is more food than your dog can comfortably digest.
And that 150/200g is a range he can efficiently process.

Dogs generally can build up to eating big meals (400g instead of
200g) but it's over time, gradually. If your dog should logically be
eating 400g a day, then I'd say feed him two smaller meals to give
him the full nutritional benefit of his food.

Gradually increase the size of one feeding as you gradually decrease
the size of the other meal, until--however long it takes--he's eating
one 400g meal a day.

If ever a 400g meal produces loose stools, go back to two smaller
meals until things stabilize again.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:01 am ((PDT))

Tammy,

Congrats on the successful go at the vet's office <grin>. I use a vet
rarely (and you've seen my crew <grin>). I would caution you not to
get too excited about "holistic" vets. Find a vet who's a good
diagnostician and doesn't point fingers at raw as a diagnosis. I use
a vet who's about as allopathic as they come, out in Riverside (Dr.
Butchko if anyone is wondering). However, I don't know that it's ever
really come up what I feed, other than when a health issue may
indicate modifying their diet from time to time. When they prescribe
ABX and other medications, I decline them, explaining that the dogs'
homeopath will treat whatever's going on and they're fine with that.
They always do comment on the healthy appearence of the dogs' coat and
teeth...and then when reminded I feed raw laugh and say "oh, yeah,
you're one of those who don't fund our vacations."

Having a good relationship with a vet who will respect your feeding
and treatment chioces is important. But don't think that a "holistic"
vet is the best you can do. Here in Norco, there's a holistic vet
who's praised to high heavens by his clients. I went to him for about
6 months, when I had a sick girl. When I asked about getting a
rabies exemption letter for her, because obviously she wasn't well
enough to be vaccinated, he said not to worry, the vaccines won't hurt
her. That was my last trip to his office.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com

Messages in this topic (9)
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12a. Re: Chicken feet
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:10 am ((PDT))

okay Jeni,
I'll ask her. lol
Cheryl

John and Jeni Blackmon wrote:
> I would say it's up to the toy poodle. My great danes love the chicken feet, they are like candy here at this house.
> I would ask your dog, and see what it says:)
> Jeni
>
>

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12b. Re: Chicken feet
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:21 am ((PDT))

this sounds like fun. thank you. :) how much meat is on one of those
little things though? how many for your 10 pound cat on the chicken feet?
Cheryl

costrowski75 wrote:
> Cheryl <parkbunny@...> wrote:
>
>> I saw chicken feet at my grocery store. Can a toy poodle eat these as
>>
> is?
> *****
> You betcha. Big fun.
> Chris O
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (25)
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12c. Re: Chicken feet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:12 am ((PDT))

Cheryl <parkbunny@...> wrote:
how much meat is on one of those
> little things though? how many for your 10 pound cat on the chicken
feet?
*****
No meat.
Chicken feet are meat-free.
Nice amount of cartilage though; natural glusosamine.

I give one foot to my cat for a treat and though sometimes she eats the
whole thing, usually she nibbles the toes down to the stub. And leaves
the stub. Whatever the stub is called. Foot?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (25)
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13. Chicken is working
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:17 am ((PDT))

I have my grandson over while my son had an appointment. Of course the
GS is not used to Rayna as of yet, she's a puppy and he's the 3 year old
tonka toy boy. Destructive. So.. i have to put Rayna in her crate while
he is here when I'm on the computer or otherwise active. So, when I got
done doing the dishes feeding him. .. what do I find?? Rayna had gone
BACK in her crate to eat her other piece of chicken wing. now that!!!!!
I love. !!!!! love it.. looooovvvvvvit.. !!!! lol
Cheryl :-)
--

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14a. rawfeeding
Posted by: "Greg Cobb" gcobb13@yahoo.com gcobb13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:18 am ((PDT))

I am looking for some ideas and menus for a 2 1/2 f Neo and 12 m Lab mix; would like to know how fast to ween them from the other stuff; also looking for some people to let me know what they feed their dogs in the course of a day and week; cost of rawfeeding.

Greg Cobb

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14b. Re: rawfeeding
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:06 am ((PDT))

Greg Cobb <gcobb13@...> wrote:>
> I am looking for some ideas and menus for a 2 1/2 f Neo and 12 m Lab
mix;
*****
For some visual support please check out http://rawfeddogs.net and
click on the recipes link.

For text support, please browse the list archives. Here's how to join
Yahoogroups so you can access the Rawfeeding message archives:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

You can search with a variety of words, most anything will turn up
something. I recommend you read, read, read. Everything you ask for
has been covered. Often.

would like to know how fast to ween them from the other stuff;
*****
There is no weaning. What you do is ditch the kibble and start feeding
real food. While it is possible to gentle the dog into a fully raw
diet, there is no need to. Generally the gentling is for the human's
sake, not the dog's. My goal when introducing raw is to get the dog
off kibble as quickly as possible.

also looking for some people to let me know what they feed their dogs
in the course of a day and week;
*****
I have a big Lab, two goldens of middling size and a 10mo border
collie. The border collie sort of shares what the cat gets because
they both eat small amounts. Today the big dogs each got a poundish
heap of green tripe, a similarly large heap of beef trim and a chicken
back.

Tomorrow the big dogs will get nothing.

The next day the plan is for lamb breasts, each weighing about three
pounds. Maybe with some lamb trim if I can find it in the freezer.

Haven't thought much past day after tomorrow but there will be whole
chickens in the near future. And a few days ago the big dogs divvied
up a humongous turkey bought for pennies on the dollar postEaster.

cost of rawfeeding.
*****
I shoot for a buck a pound, on average. This means that cheapy stuff
like whole chickens, pork shoulder roasts and closeout meats free up
money to apply to pricey stuff like beef and lamb and goat. If I
worked harder at it I could bring the budget in lower, but I'm good
with this for now.

It's easy! It's fun! It's real food! Do it!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (22)
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15. muscles building
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:44 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

What type of meat is good for musle building? Beef or venison?

Messages in this topic (1)
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