[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11943

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: leaving bones with pup
From: Giselle
1b. Re: leaving bones with pup
From: Halo Harris

2a. Re: Turkey legs
From: Morledzep@aol.com
2b. Re: Turkey legs
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
2c. Re: Turkey legs
From: costrowski75
2d. Re: Turkey legs
From: jennifer_ricotta
2e. Re: Turkey legs
From: jennifer_ricotta
2f. Re: Turkey legs
From: delcaste

3a. Re: Newbie reassurance & questions
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

4. Bear meat/parts
From: erica

5a. Vacation
From: Linda Edgington
5b. Re: Vacation
From: Andrea

6a. Re: Vet disagrees with raw
From: Casey Post

7a. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
From: tottime47

8a. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: Giselle
8b. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: tottime47
8c. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: delcaste

9a. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
From: Sandee Lee
9b. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
From: delcaste

10a. Bone & organ diversity help needed! 6 questions
From: sarahfalkner
10b. Re: Bone & organ diversity help needed! 6 questions
From: Giselle
10c. Re: Bone & organ diversity help needed! 6 questions
From: Giselle

11. Albertson's ribs price correction
From: Laurie Swanson

12a. first raw meal this evening....
From: coriowen
12b. Re: first raw meal this evening....
From: Andrea

Messages
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1a. Re: leaving bones with pup
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:02 pm ((PDT))

Thank you, Anne!
That was bothering me, too.

I think that if you need something to keep the pup occupied while
she's crated when you're working; she should have some exercise in the
am to tire her out, even if its just zoomies in the yard, toss the toy
or a little tug in the house while you're getting ready for work,
making breakfast, and so forth.

A stuffed frozen Kongsickle in the crate should provide enough
'busyness' alternated with sleeping, to while away the time while
you're gone.

Supervised mealtimes are important, even if you only have 1 dog, imo.

And, it may not need to be mentioned, again, but rec/wreck bones are
too hard; they are tooth breakers and wear teeth down over time. They
shouldn't be fed for physical, mental or dental exercise, because the
body parts you feed at meals should be large and engaging enough to
accomplish all that.
TC
Giselle
with Bes in New Jersey

> >>I often give my pup frozen bones if I am out for the day - they keep
> her occupied for ages.<<
>
> Okay, this statement has been bothering me, so I'll comment --
IMO, puppies and adult dogs for that matter, should be supervised when
eating bones.
> Although few of the listers have ever had a problem, I think it
makes sense to be "around" when bones are consumed, lest something
happen that we might assist with. I've been rawfeeding for 6 yrs.,
and even with the adults who have been rawfed that length of time, I
still hang around to make sure all is well when they're fed. Perhaps
that's just me, but to do otherwise feels irresponsible to me.
>
> -- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden
rescue) in NW Ohio

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: leaving bones with pup
Posted by: "Halo Harris" h.halo@yahoo.com h.halo
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:49 pm ((PDT))

I agree, I would not leave my dog alone with a recreational bone. Bones thaw out and then can splinter depending on how strong the jaws are on the dog.
Halo

Michael Moore <m-tak@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>I often give my pup frozen bones if I am out for the day - they keep
her occupied for ages.<<

Okay, this statement has been bothering me, so I'll comment -- IMO, puppies and adult dogs for that matter, should be supervised when eating bones.
Although few of the listers have ever had a problem, I think it makes sense to be "around" when bones are consumed, lest something happen that we might assist with. I've been rawfeeding for 6 yrs., and even with the adults who

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Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Turkey legs
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:07 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/22/2007 2:39:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ricottaj@mac.com writes:

New to rawfeeding and wondering if it is okay to feed a turkey drumstick to
my dog. She is a
50 pound pitbull/boxer mix.

Jen,

nothing wrong with turkey drumsticks.. they are favorite foods here.. except
most of my dogs eat the drumsticks with the thighs still attached, like a
chicken leg quarter only bigger..

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (16)
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2b. Re: Turkey legs
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:28 pm ((PDT))

Jen,
You're not giving us very much info. For all intents it should be ok, but you should give more meat than just a leg. How long on the diet, what have you been feeding so far? What is your main source of meat I mean.? A leg is good for munching, but not enough meat. The bone to meat should be 10%bone and then meat. A leg is too much bone and not enough meat for a meal, but for a snack, just fine.:) If your dog is a gulper, the leg might go down too fast, so you might need bigger pieces, like the half of the bird, so it has to chew it's dinner. Get the picture? Hope that helps.
jeni

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Messages in this topic (16)
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2c. Re: Turkey legs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:53 pm ((PDT))

"jennifer_ricotta" <ricottaj@...> wrote:
>
> New to rawfeeding and wondering if it is okay to feed a turkey
drumstick to my dog. She is a
> 50 pound pitbull/boxer mix.
*****
I feed turkey leg/thigh quarters to my adult retrievers and the leg to
my 10mo bc pup. Everybody does their job well, so I have no problem
recommending them.

The leg bone does scare some raw feeders, but I've found dogs
generally know how to deal. If you are concerned, you can let your
dog rip off the skin and flesh and chew on the knobby joints, then
collect up the long bone. It's possible you'll see uneaten shards
lying around. My feeling is the dog left them because that was the
sensible thing to do. Sometimes one of my dogs will leave shards,
sometimes not.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (16)
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2d. Re: Turkey legs
Posted by: "jennifer_ricotta" ricottaj@mac.com jennifer_ricotta
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:54 pm ((PDT))

I have been making patties according to BARF ratios and am just introducing whole pieces.
My dog has eaten plenty of chicken parts and now we're moving to turkey this week. She's
been eating raw about three weeks now. I was going to feed the leg as one meal and the
patty as another but you are saying that a leg is not enough meat? What part(s) would be
enough to give to her as a meal?
Jen

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, John and Jeni Blackmon <jonjeni777@...> wrote:
>
> Jen,
> You're not giving us very much info. For all intents it should be ok, but you should give
more meat than just a leg. How long on the diet, what have you been feeding so far?
What is your main source of meat I mean.? A leg is good for munching, but not enough
meat. The bone to meat should be 10%bone and then meat. A leg is too much bone and
not enough meat for a meal, but for a snack, just fine.:) If your dog is a gulper, the leg
might go down too fast, so you might need bigger pieces, like the half of the bird, so it
has to chew it's dinner. Get the picture? Hope that helps.
> jeni
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (16)
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2e. Re: Turkey legs
Posted by: "jennifer_ricotta" ricottaj@mac.com jennifer_ricotta
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:20 pm ((PDT))

I don't think my response to this posted for some reason. I was wondering what makes a
good meal? I am feeding patties for one meal and parts for another.
Jennifer

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, John and Jeni Blackmon <jonjeni777@...> wrote:
>
> Jen,
> You're not giving us very much info. For all intents it should be ok, but you should give
more meat than just a leg. How long on the diet, what have you been feeding so far?
What is your main source of meat I mean.? A leg is good for munching, but not enough
meat. The bone to meat should be 10%bone and then meat. A leg is too much bone and
not enough meat for a meal, but for a snack, just fine.:) If your dog is a gulper, the leg
might go down too fast, so you might need bigger pieces, like the half of the bird, so it
has to chew it's dinner. Get the picture? Hope that helps.
> jeni
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (16)
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2f. Re: Turkey legs
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:59 pm ((PDT))

> New to rawfeeding and wondering if it is okay to feed a turkey
drumstick to my dog. She is a
> 50 pound pitbull/boxer mix.
> Jen

Hi Jen, I have a 35 pound APBT and he loves his turkey drumsticks. I
feed it with a little turkey liver and turkey heart.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (16)
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3a. Re: Newbie reassurance & questions
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:12 pm ((PDT))

Mary,
You have the right idea, but think bigger. Your dogs are big enough for larger meals and once a day if you want. Say half a small whole chicken each for a meal, with the organs saved for the meal once a week. And yeah, they don't really chew a whole lot, because they don't have to, that's why you give them bigger pieces, so they have to, to break it up. They would have to chew it up, the half of a chicken to eat it.
And bones are really only about 10% of the diet, so you can buy more meatier stuff, like boneless chicken, or pork shoulder, when you are ready to try other meats. Not ground, but the whole meat pieces, and watch for sales, like breasts/thighs that are boneless, because too much bones, could be the cause of the runny pooos. And no poos for several days is not unusual so don't worry about that either, it's normal. The dog takes from the diet all it needs and only pooos out what it doesn't, so that's the nice thing about the diet.
If you take off the wings and necks for the cats, leave the whole bird for each dog, and let them eat the whole thing, or stop when they are hungry and save what is left for the next meal. That is fine too. Some people let their animals have a nice big meal and then have a few small ones in the next couple of days following the big one. It teaches them that food will always be there, and not to be expecting it at certain times too. Their stomachs get accustomed to feedings and you can get them out of it just as easily.
If you do pork for instance, get some big shoulder pieces and they can eat all the meat off and then have a huge bone to chew on for a while. Pigs feet are quiet fun and meaty for big dogs too. Mine are great danes and feet have saved my house from being chewed down. And ribs of any kind beef or pork are great the whole rack, let them eat them apart, work for entertainment, not for meat, never enough on them. But mine love the bones too, and so far there isn't a bone my two can't take care of. Some people say certain bones are a nono, but you will have to make up your own mind on that one, only you know your dogs. The sharp ones can be removed if you like and tossed, but we toss nothing here.:)
So, don't be concerned, you're doing great, give more meaty meat, some chicken without bones, and the runny pooos should clear up, and keep it up, they will be fine.
Jeni

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Messages in this topic (2)
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4. Bear meat/parts
Posted by: "erica" ericagordon@sbcglobal.net ericagsweet
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:12 pm ((PDT))

Hello! Sophie is doing awesome on week 2 of raw feeding btw! I just
received a phone call regarding bear parts. My Dad is on the list & a
bear was hit by a car. He is processing it & is saving me the head,
liver, lungs & heart. We will freeze it first & won't be introducing
it for a bit but just wanted to know if there were any other parts
that he should save for us. He is keeping the meat & will share some
of that with us also. Any info ASAP would be much appreciated as he
is doing it as we speak!
TIA!
Erica

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Vacation
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:15 pm ((PDT))

I went on vacation for 10 days ( I have a new granddaughter, :} ) In the mean time I had babysitters for my cat and dog, and they both got switched back to kibble. Now I have to start all over. How do I do this? Just start with chicken again, and go slow? I really had no diarreah or anything much to start with. Think I will now? I'm not a very happy camper right now, my poor furbabies!

Linda

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

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Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Vacation
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:59 pm ((PDT))

Bummer, but not all that bad. Maybe go with chicken for a couple of days and make sure
they are still digestively good. If no puddle poos, I'd say go back to where you left off. 10
days shouldn't be long enough to have to start from scratch IMO. My sister's chi was rawfed
when he lived with me, but eats crap in a bag now that they moved out. When I puppy sit
(every few moths) he eats the same variety as the big boys do and he doesn't have any
problems even though he's been eating ki**le in the meantime.

Congrats on the new granddaughter!

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Linda Edgington <lindagail849@...> wrote:
>
> I went on vacation for 10 days ( I have a new granddaughter, :} ) In the mean time I had
babysitters for my cat and dog, and they both got switched back to kibble. Now I have to
start all over. How do I do this? Just start with chicken again, and go slow?

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Vet disagrees with raw
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:23 pm ((PDT))

>First he
> told me that he does not recommend raw feeding at all because the
> dogs could get samonella and they are not protected against it like
> most say.

Some dogs are susceptible to salmonella, yes. But as salmonella is
EVERYWHERE, it's hardly something you can avoid. Besides, I'd be much more
concerned about things like the recent treat recalls for salmonella than I
would be for raw chicken...

> Then he went on to tell me that freezing the meat for a
> period of time would not kill all of the parasites either.

That's true, there are some parasites that are resistant to freezing. Are
you likely to run into them? Not really...*maybe*, if you're feeding wild
boar, bear, etc...stuff from the grocery store? Nah...

>He said,
> dogs are not like wolves, they are domesticated and different.

I'm afraid that science disagrees with him on this one. Dogs ARE wolves and
wolves are dogs - they can interbreed and produce fertile offspring
generation after generation. The only real difference is their outer
appearance - their guts are not domesticated.

>And he said, besides, wolves don't live much longer than
> 3 or 4 in the wild because of their food intake, whereas domestic
> dogs and cats live into their teens.

Oh dear. I don't know whether I should laugh or cry at this one. Wolves
die young because of many things, but diet isn't one of them. Humans, loss
of habitat, loss of prey sources, living in the elements, having to protect
territory and young, having to deal with food that fights back and will kick
you in the head if it can...the list goes on. Life in the wild is tough,
but there are wolves who have managed to do it well into their teens,
despite the hardships. Fact is, dogs can live into their 20's and cats into
their 30's - ask your vet why ours aren't doing so regularly?

>>I told him that since I started
> on raw, the stools are much smaller and her muzzle cleared up. He
> then told me that she probably just had some acne and it cleared on
> its own, not because of the food, this was after telling me it was an
> allergy. He told me to buy a dog food with the smallest number of
> ingredientts. Well, I thought to myself, raw food, 1 ingredient, has
> to be best, but I didn't say that to him.

Good for you! You've got good common sense working for you, there! Keep up
the good work.

Casey

Messages in this topic (7)
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7a. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:52 pm ((PDT))

Aaaah Deb,

How could ever give him another bite of k***ble after a show
like that, lol.

Do some good and donate it to a shelter!

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ptmagi" <ptmagi@...> wrote:

BTW, he was just so cute to watch after he downed his first "raw meaty
bone" yesterday. He fairly pranced around the house and yard, head
held high, obviously thinking to himself "Aaaah, this is the life!"

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (6)
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8a. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Katie!
The little guys sometimes need 'little' food; try him on
Game Hen. They're really chickens that are slaughtered at a younger
age, softer, smaller bones and parts.

You can also put chicken pieces in a plastic bag, wrap 'em in an old
dish towel, and whack the cr*p out of 'um with a heavy meat
tenderizing mallet. ; )

Ribboning strips of meat off the bone with kitchen shears works great
to help them learn how to 'attack' a meal.

You can also feed the heart and gizzards that come with the chickens,
good meatymeat. If you want to feed the liver, cut up eensy teensy
tiny bits and add one to a meal.

After working on Game Hens or beat up chicken parts for a week or two,
he should start developing some jaw strength, and when his adult teeth
come in; Look Out! : )
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Oops; I mean 16 weeks! But yes he's a baby baby...the ribboning idea
> is super (I searched it). I'll pick up some breasts tonight; he'll
> have that instead of his turkey tail. :)

Messages in this topic (14)
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8b. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi Katie,

Congrats on the new addition!

I'm owned by a 10 lb Peke, lol......He lets me live here and feed
him.......

Serously though other than chicken bones, cornish hens and some
really soft rabbit rib bones he can't do much damage to
bones..........

If I want him to have a variety of bones, ie, turkey, pork, I have
to crunch them up with a pair of hand held gardening shears or a
hammer. If that doesn't work, then I don't feed them....He will try
chewing on them sometimes, but after 30 minutes or so I pick them
up as he gets nowhere with them and gets frustrated....
He loves chewing on chicken feet, but one will last him a lifetime
as he's not able to bite through them, although he chews and chews,
lol.....

Mine does have a damaged disc in his neck, so not sure if that may be
part of the reason he's not a stronger chewer.......

Hope this helps, but just remember Pekes are known for having a mind
of their own, lol..........

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pelle567" <krjoyner@...> wrote:

my new addition to the family is a pekingese.
He loves his raw food, but he DOES not have the
ability to chew up his bones like my other big kids. Does anyone feed
dogs with flat faces that can give me some tips and hints.

Thanks, Katie

Messages in this topic (14)
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8c. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:38 pm ((PDT))

> I have 2 APBT, a Golden/Beagle mix and my new addition to the
family
> is a pekingese. He loves his raw food, but he DOES not have the
> ability to chew up his bones like my other big kids. Does anyone
feed
> dogs with flat faces that can give me some tips and hints. >
> Thanks,
> Katie
>

Hi Katie, I have an APBT and 2 pugs. All three love their raw diet
but I have to admit that watching the APBT and the pugs eat leaves
much to be desired in the way of crunching and tearing lol. I feed
the pugs anything and everything and they do fine. But, when the
bone, of let's say goat, is too sharp I bang it with a hammer.
Chicken necks I have had to hold for them so that they eat piece by
piece. Rabbit is great for them, they have soft bones. Tomorrow they
get turkey drumstick with hearts and liver. The drumstick is cut up
but the bone is not hard so they will be fine. Sometimes I feed twice
a day and when it's an all meat day I have to cut it in small hunks
or they will choke (they tend to gulp). I'm a newbie and so are the
dogs therefore all the extra help on my part :) They are catching on
though, so will yours.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (14)
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9a. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi Peg,

Duhhh.....I realized what you meant after I asked that stupid question! :))

Softer stool is normal when feeding a meat only meal so that was nothing to
be alarmed about!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Peggy" <peggy070605@sbcglobal.net>

Hey Sandee,

Oh, no, I meant no transition from Kibble to Raw. I am feeding them
chicken, so I'll do it for a week. I noticed their stool was more
healthy looking from the chicken w/bones. After the ground beef,
their stool seemed to be soft and runny, so I don't know what that's
all about. But either way, yes, I'm feeding them mostly chicken.

Messages in this topic (9)
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9b. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:51 pm ((PDT))

Also, did anyone else feel as if they were going to
> vomit the first time they fed their dogs raw food? I felt so grossed
> out, eck. My hubby was just fine with it , but not me. Ew. Maybe
it'll
> be better tomorrow. =)

Hi there, well not vomit but certainly very anxious. I even took the
food away from them before they finished (they just took a few bites,
actually), lol. I was also sweating thinking that my dogs couldn't "do"
this diet. Too hard-core. But not vomit.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (9)
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10a. Bone & organ diversity help needed! 6 questions
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:55 pm ((PDT))

**also posted on rawcat**

Hi, my cats--knock wood--seem great, but I'm suddenly paranoid about the
phosphorous (and other minerals) balance after reading some of the resources and
comments lately, especially after reading the recommended

http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm

I'm worried about how the cat's bones can get demineralized if s/he hasn't eaten balanced,
and you don't know it until it's too late. Up til now I've been pretty relaxed, deliberately,
and I hope I haven't been too relaxed.

The background:
My two boys--Brooklyn street rescue domestic shorthair mutts approximately 3 and
5 years old--have now been on prey model diet for a month and a half, having switched
from a combo of wellness canned and raw according to b.a.r.f. model with veggies etc.
So far they seem to be doing great, silkier coats than ever, even more energy (which I
didn't think possible), and slimmer tummies. Oh, and more affectionate (which I also didn't
think was possible!).

Anything boneless, they'll happily nosh on, skin and all if applicable. Liver is their favorite
food. But the only bones they will really eat so far are fish bones. I tried the tough love
approach with chicken backs, wings, drumsticks, and small lamb bones, but each time
they held out an entire day and I didn't want to fast healthy very active cats in need of
nourishment. I also tried the application of bribes like water-packed sardine bits to bony
chicken, but they just licked those off. I've chopped wings and backs slightly, as size
evidently matters to my boys, and they do approach these at least, but then the most
they'll do is gnaw flesh off the bone and leave the bone, and that they'll only do if I make
the pieces roughly the size of mice.

Fish, however, they'll eat bones and all, although a whole mackerel is too much food--
usually I cut a whole (fresh, never frozen, degutted but head intact) mackerel into 4-6
pieces, which is 2-4 meals for the 2 cats. Also if I slice the mackerel's head in half
lengthwise (so each cat gets an eye and half the brain, etc) they'll eat the whole thing.

OK, the questions:

Question 1:
I'm worried about variety of bone sources, do people think it would it be a lesser evil to
grind chicken bones sometimes to get them to eat that, or would it be ok to just have fish
bones (which they will eat whole) for the entire 10% of the working ratio of muscle 80%,
organ 10% and bone 10%?

Question 2: Am I correct in thinking the fish head is pretty bony, or is that
in fact cartilage??? Fish bones are so soft, I can't tell the difference. (And, is cartilage also a
good source of calcium???) And, should I be counting the fish head as primarily bone
or organ, if it has eyes and brain in it??

Question 3: With the 80% /10% / 10% ratio, when we say 10% bones, do we mean 10% of
total weight of all food offered is pure bone, or just 10% of food fed overall is super bony
food, like chicken wings or, hopefully, fish heads?

Incidentally so far, for muscle meats they are getting a mix of chicken (both
dark and light, with skin on), well-marbled pork, lamb and fish (usually mackerel or what
they call brown trout here, which is a salmonid). Not much beef at the moment. Organs,
they are getting chicken and lamb livers. I'm working on getting some rabbit and in the
future maybe will raise some myself.

Question 4: Does the above sound like a good variety of muscles and organs for cats?

Question 5: My cats eat 2x/day. The way my brain works, it would be best for me
to try to achieve a good balance of nutrients over the course of each week. Usually I just
give a different meat each meal, and try to give fish only once or twice a week, as
I've heard too much can interfere with thiamine absorption (I think), so the rest of the
meals are spread out kind of equally among the other meats. If the fish are the only bones,
is 1-2x/week sufficent, or better to put a little at each meal? And, can anyone suggest a
good balance of how many times per week of each of these different meats to ensure good
phosphorous (and magnesium, taurine etc) balance? Do I need to vary organs more? Is
beef necessary for cats? I'm living in ireland and it's been hard to get chickens with all the
organs, I buy the livers separately.

Question 6: livers, some weeks I give a little thumbnail piece with each meal, other times, I
just give one or two meals per week that are mostly organ (they LOVE chicken livers and
happily eat a meal solely of liver without gastrointestinal distress). Is one or the other
method of proportioning organ to muscle and bone better for any reason?

I know in the wild, felidae do not have a scale and calculator, nor a consistently well-
stocked supermarket, and I want to break out of the whole medical precision model when
it comes to living and eating, but, like so many of us I'm sure, I have these fears from
having grown up in a culture that worships the (alleged) Expert; and, we all know what it's
like to love these little furry beings so much we can't stand the thought of having done the
wrong thing...

Sorry if this is long, I couldn't find any of this info in archived messages, and I tried to
organize my questions...

thanks everybody, I love this list!!!

Sarah, with feline assistance from Henry and Ivan

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Bone & organ diversity help needed! 6 questions
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:38 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Sarah!
OK, now, Take a breath! ; )

> OK, the questions:

**** 10% edible bone in the diet isn't much, over time it will balance
out. I bet you're close now. NO, don't grind. Can you get younger
chickens, we call 'em Game Hens in the states? Smaller parts, smaller,
softer bones. What about quail, or other small game birds? ****

> Question 1:
> I'm worried about variety of bone sources, do people think it would
it be a lesser evil to
> grind chicken bones sometimes to get them to eat that, or would it
be OK to just have fish
> bones (which they will eat whole) for the entire 10% of the working
ratio of muscle 80%,
> organ 10% and bone 10%?
>
**** Fish heads are bony. IMO, bone and cartilage are just a matter of
degree, both are good for the critter, and I count both together in my
"edible bone count". I'd count a fish head as 60-30 - 60% bone, 30%
organ (fish brains are pretty small ; ) ) and 10% meatymeat. ****

> Question 2: Am I correct in thinking the fish head is pretty bony,
or is that
> in fact cartilage??? Fish bones are so soft, I can't tell the
difference. (And, is cartilage also a
> good source of calcium???) And, should I be counting the fish head
as primarily bone
> or organ, if it has eyes and brain in it??
>
***** 10% EDIBLE bone from all body parts, irregardless - I don't
count bone that is fed, but not consumed. ****

> Question 3: With the 80% /10% / 10% ratio, when we say 10% bones,
do we mean 10% of
> total weight of all food offered is pure bone, or just 10% of food
fed overall is super bony
> food, like chicken wings or, hopefully, fish heads?
>
**** Sounds OK to me. Smaller critters for smaller carnivores are
appropriate, I wouldn't worry about the beef. How about beef or veal
heart? Or lamb or goat heart? Good source of taurine. If you could
stand to, you might consider feeding mice. That way, they'd get all
the organs. And, if you raise your own rabbits, or can get them from
the source, undressed, they'll be getting the organs from those, also.
****

> Question 4: Does the above sound like a good variety of muscles and
organs for cats? - Incidentally so far, for muscle meats they are
getting a mix of chicken (both
> dark and light, with skin on), well-marbled pork, lamb and fish
(usually mackerel or what
> they call brown trout here, which is a salmonid). Not much beef at
the moment. Organs,
> they are getting chicken and lamb livers. I'm working on getting
some rabbit and in the
> future maybe will raise some myself.
>
**** You can be a *little* more relaxed about this, you know; they're
getting a pretty good variety, of protein and body part and organ.
Remember the axiom; "Balance Over Time", not days, not a week - but
WEEKS and months. You'll have the rest of their long lives to achieve
balance. It's all in there. Feed whatever comes out of the freezer and
fridge when you stick your hand in, it'll be OK. : ) ****

> Question 5: My cats eat 2x/day. The way my brain works, it would be
best for me
> to try to achieve a good balance of nutrients over the course of
each week. Usually I just
> give a different meat each meal, and try to give fish only once or
twice a week, as
> I've heard too much can interfere with thiamine absorption (I
think), so the rest of the
> meals are spread out kind of equally among the other meats. If the
fish are the only bones,
> is 1-2x/week sufficient, or better to put a little at each meal?
And, can anyone suggest a
> good balance of how many times per week of each of these different
meats to ensure good
> phosphorous (and magnesium, taurine etc) balance? Do I need to vary
organs more? Is
> beef necessary for cats? I'm living in Ireland and it's been hard to
get chickens with all the
> organs, I buy the livers separately.
>
**** Over time, liver should be about 5% of the total diet. A little
too much now, you cut back later, NPs. As long as they tolerate it,
or you don't mind cleaning up the litter box, it don't matter how you
feed it. Really. ****

> Question 6: livers, some weeks I give a little thumbnail piece with
each meal, other times, I
> just give one or two meals per week that are mostly organ (they LOVE
chicken livers and
> happily eat a meal solely of liver without gastrointestinal
distress). Is one or the other
> method of proportioning organ to muscle and bone better for any reason?
>
> I know in the wild, felidae do not have a scale and calculator, nor
a consistently well-
> stocked supermarket, and I want to break out of the whole medical
precision model when
> it comes to living and eating, but, like so many of us I'm sure, I
have these fears from
> having grown up in a culture that worships the (alleged) Expert;
and, we all know what it's
> like to love these little furry beings so much we can't stand the
thought of having done the
> wrong thing...
>
> Sorry if this is long, I couldn't find any of this info in archived
messages, and I tried to
> organize my questions...

**** YQW. Just give yourself a break, and ENJOY the process -
planning, searching, buying, FEEDING, etc., - enjoying them enjoying
their meals!!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey
>
> thanks everybody, I love this list!!!
>
> Sarah, with feline assistance from Henry and Ivan
>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

10c. Re: Bone & organ diversity help needed! 6 questions
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Sarah!
Source for whole prey for small carnivores;
http://www.livefoods.co.uk/index.php?cPath=24
TC
Giselle
with Bea in new Jersey

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11. Albertson's ribs price correction
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:57 pm ((PDT))

Sorry, all, the price of .10/lb. that was posted previously by someone
else is incorrect. It's $1/lb. I just went to Albertson's in Seattle
and didn't see any ribs at that price and couldn't find it in the
flyer, so I came home and looked online. This is from their web site:

Country Style Ribs Pork Shoulder or Beef Back Ribs
Max Pak, Beef Back Ribs Previously Frozen
10 LBS. FOR $10 with your Preferred Savings Card
thru Aug 28

Laurie

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. first raw meal this evening....
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:27 pm ((PDT))

I feed my 4 girls their first chicken "only" raw meal this evening and
I will start tomorrow at lunchtime with this from now on, because as I
understand they eat once a day, correct, not twice? Should I worry
about any of them possibly getting sick tonight if they had kibble
early this morning? I didn't know if I should have waited 24 hours
before feeding them raw and not feeding them kibble. I was told it was
ok, but know I am wondering if I will have any vomit or diarrehea from
any of them???
Cori

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: first raw meal this evening....
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

They should be fine. There might be some loose stool, but if they had their last taste of
ki**le this morning, it won't bother them. Congrats on switching!

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "coriowen" <COwen98@...> wrote:

> Should I worry
> about any of them possibly getting sick tonight if they had kibble
> early this morning? I didn't know if I should have waited 24 hours
> before feeding them raw and not feeding them kibble.

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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