[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11939

There are 17 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Iodine requirments
From: ginny wilken

2a. Re: vet says Yeay to rawfeeding
From: johkemp

3.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: Lori Poirier
3.2. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: darkstardog
3.3. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: woofwoofgrrl
3.4. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

4a. She is getting sick every night
From: donnad2998@yahoo.com
4b. Re: She is getting sick every night
From: Morledzep@aol.com
4c. Re: She is getting sick every night
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

5a. Fish Oil dosages
From: kaebruney
5b. Re: Fish Oil dosages
From: emmiemileslouie

6.1. Re: question
From: Morledzep@aol.com

7a. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

8a. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

9a. Re: Hello, I'm new to the group...=)
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

10. whole side of lamb - how to instruct butcher to cut?
From: quiltingtuppy

11a. Re: freezing meat
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Iodine requirments
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:23 pm ((PDT))

On Aug 21, 2007, at 8:20 PM, blechatlb@aol.com wrote:

> **Everything required is found in the appropriate diet. Kelp is one
> item I would never recommend using as a supplement since it can
> inhibit thyroid function.*
> ------------------------
> Sandee,
>
> I contacted Dr. Jean Dodds and asked her about kelp supplementation
> as I have a hypothyroid dog - she said that kibble fed dogs can be
> supplemented 3 x a week (because kibble already has a lot of
> iodine) and raw fed dogs can be given kelp daily...

I'm with Sandee on this. Dr. Dodds is great within her field, but she
has never shown herself to be particularly knowledgeable about
nutrition. If lack of iodine is the key factor in suppressing thyroid
function, then of course iodine is warranted. But failed thyroids in
dogs are caused, IMO, by chronic disease which shuts down the organ
itself, not from lack of material. In cases where iodine is proven to
increase thyroid output, of course it would be valuable. But when the
thyroid fails for other reasons I see no excuse to add kelp to an
otherwise suitable prototypical diet. Iodine, along with the other
minerals, should be in adequate supply in the tissues of prey.

I'm actually surprised at the doc for her observation, given that she
has adequately demonstrated that dysfunctional thyroid glands are
tied to autoimmune disease, and that to vaccines, in her papers.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: vet says Yeay to rawfeeding
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:38 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Patty Reid"
<pattyannreidster@...> wrote:
>
> Please explain what RMB means?
>
> Patty
>
>When I explain how I feed my pets my answer is

"A prey model diet based around Raw Meaty Bones. This includes offal
and the occasional table scraps."

I use this to remove myself from the 'ground bone, vegetables,
supplements and pre-packaged patties' school of BARF feeders. There
also seem to be a lot of uninformed people who feed their dogs just
meat off the bone.

RMB like BARF and raw feeding are terms that are used by different
people to mean different things.

Jo

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "Lori Poirier" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:38 am ((PDT))

> This doesn't change the fact that raw is not high in protein.

> > ...the vet may misundrestand how much protein the dog is
> > actually getting.
*****
> That hardly matters, I'd say, given that his perception is flawed, not mine.

*****

The typical raw diet is higher in protein than the typical kibble or canned food diet. The vet's perception about that is correct.

It seems very important for some on this list to "prove" that raw is relatively low in protein. Why is that? It isn't true, and besides, the protein in the raw food is good for them.

Lori

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________

3.2. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "darkstardog" darkstardog@charter.net darkstardog
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:38 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "darkstardog" <darkstardog@> wrote:
>>> I'd say the answer is: compared to the standard commercial dog
>>food, probably kibble. This is what vets would probably consider
>>normal.
> *****
>>> Whether it is an appropriate diet or not, that doesn't change the
>>>fact that vets will take that amount as 'normal'.
> *****
>
>
> This doesn't change the fact that raw is not high in protein.
>

The raw diet is NOT high in protein compared to the diet of a wild
wolf. It IS high in protein compared to most kibble. Whether it is
high or not depends on what you compare it to. You might object to
calling it "high" in protein, but you're still stuck with the fact
that a raw diet is likely to be *higher in protein* than a standard
kibble diet.

In addition to the actual amount of protein the dog eats, there is
also the fact of how much of that protein is used for making new
protein and how much is converted to carbs or fats.
If there is more protein than a dog needs to make new proteins, the
excess protein is (as far as I know) converted to carbs or fats, and
used for energy. (The liver has a role in this.) It seems likely to me
that the amount of protein converted to energy sources on a raw diet
is higher than the amount of protein converted to energy sources on a
standard high-carb commercial kibble diet.

Marty

Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________

3.3. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:19 am ((PDT))

You certainly should start asking the vet tough questions like "Why?
What does a 'low protein' get my dog in this situation? How does
protein affect liver function? Wouldn't it be more important for the
dog to have highly digestable protein rather than low protein? Is it
some other nutrient balance, rather than the actual protein content,
that you are trying to fix via the low protein kibble?"

Sometimes the vets lay out standard "treatment plans" without giving the
reasoning behind them. For example when my BC had some kidney issues
(things are, for now, stablized) the vet wanted me on that SD crap. I
refused, did some research and asked tough questions. It turns out
that, yes, a diet with highly digestable protein is what is required.
*However*, it's phosphorus values that can be a kicker with kidney
problems and she high phosphorus blood values which we needed to fix.
Okay, now we have something to work with! The crap in a bag supposedly
has all of these parameters already balanced, blah blah blah - so the
typical walking-wallet-zombie-veterinary consumer doesn't have to think
about it.

Of course, during my initial visit to the vet, the actual dietary
parameters that mattered were never discussed, it was "Your dog needs to
be on a renal friendly diet, I recommend K*** X". It was all very
upsetting. Do some research, ask questions. See if you can get your
vet to tell you what a "Liver Friendly Diet" is and WHY. My vet started
to respect my decision to avoid k**ble once I started asking the right
questions. I think she felt a little more comfortable outside of the
k**ble bag when I was able to give her a warm fuzzy that I understood
the dietary parameters that I needed to work in.

Christine

Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________

3.4. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:14 am ((PDT))

For nutrition help go to K9KidneyDiet at Yahoo groups. They're a kidney
failure group but someone on there will know where to direct you for liver
problems as well. And, I agree with the person who posted that dietary changes
for certain illnesses might be different than the standard normal diet for a
healthy dog (just like people). You can use food as "medicine" or "poison" to
support or aggravate certain conditions. And no, it's not protein that's the
problem. Even with kidney failure, it's phosphorus in that case and fat for
pancreas and liver. I suggest you contact that group and ask for help.
They've got a TON of nutritional data.

Carol for Spencer

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. She is getting sick every night
Posted by: "donnad2998@yahoo.com" donnad2998@yahoo.com donnad2998
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:38 am ((PDT))

Here I sit just like every night waiting for my GD to
finish outside eating grass and getting sick it is
3:22AM and this has been going on about 4 days now.
She is fine during the day and acting normal. But
wakes me up every night to go out and eat grass and
get sick. Sometimes there is stuff sometimes it is
yellow. She ate 1/2 chicken and 1 turkey leg and some
ground turkey 1/4 pound today fed times, once in AM
once in PM. (As usual) 89 pound Great Dane, 8 months
old. We have been RF for 2 weeks. What am I doing
wrong?
Donna

____________________________________________________________________________________
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's
Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: She is getting sick every night
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:58 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/21/2007 11:38:53 PM Pacific Standard Time,
donnad2998@yahoo.com writes:

She ate 1/2 chicken and 1 turkey leg and some
ground turkey 1/4 pound today fed times, once in AM
once in PM. (As usual) 89 pound Great Dane, 8 months
old. We have been RF for 2 weeks. What am I doing
wrong?

Donna,

sounds like bile vomit.. usually caused by an empty stomach that is expecting
food.. or an irritated stomach that needs to rid itself of undigested bone.

I'm going to suggest that you feed less bone, and MORE meat. after 2 weeks
it's safe to say you've done your chicken duty..

wander on down to the local store and buy a couple pork picnics.. they
usually run about 10 lbs each.. so one could concievably feed a Great Dane for a
couple days.. the bones are few.. and soft, easy to chew and digest, and there
is LOTS of meat and fat and some nice tough chewy skin.

i also saw that Smart and Final here in so cal has whole boneless beef
briskets for $1.49 lb again.. been awhile since the price has been that low.. now is
the time to stock up if you have a Smart and Final near you.

i'm betting that it's just irritation from too much bones and a nice hunk o
boneless beef or pork is the cure.. can't hurt to try.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: She is getting sick every night
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:20 am ((PDT))

Donna,
You're letting her eat the grass. When she wakes up to go out, go with her, let her potty, and come back in, no eating grass.
When Zena and Zeus first started on the pork, it had more water than what they were used to and they would go out one more time in the night. And Zena would eat some grass if I let them stay out too long, and then like clockwork, 5 minutes after they came back in, she would vomit. Not much, just the grass and some of the pigsfoot. So, no walkies with eating grass and maybe no late evening feedings. Cut off the food after 5 pm.
I would walk out with them, and make sure she came right back in, and the vomiting stopped, just like that. I think her stomach was getting used to the pork, and she thought she had to MAKE herself vomit. Once I let her know I was with her and she was ok, she WAS ok.
Is the chicken/Turkey normal for her, or is one of those new? She really should only be on one source of meat for three or four weeks if she is just starting out, like only chicken, or only turkey, but just one kind for a few weeks to help her get used to things. For a great dane her age, she could be going to one meal a day too, and half a young chicken would be good for one her size, with maybe some rmb for treats, like ribs, pigs feet, stuff like that, to fill up the days, since she's still puppydom, will need stuff to chew on. (not the house) And no need for ground meat, she needs to chew her own food, that is part of the way her teeth get cleaned, so get stuff they can eat themselves, like breast meat and legs, thighs, whole pieces, ducks, chickens, when she is used to the diet of just one kind of meat you can add other sources, but make it just chicken or turkey for now, not both, that may be the problem, she may need to just get used to it,
one meat.
If she really needs to vomit, what is she vomitting up? Bile, or food? How often? How much? Four nights isn't bad, that was about how long it took for me to figure out Zena was doing the grass snacks. See if going out with her, and not letting her eat it helps. Walk her on a leash to potty if you need to, to see if it helps. I did, and it did.:) And Zena and Zeus are danes too.
Let us know.
Jeni
P.s, you're doing fine, keep it up, but try to get some sleep too:)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Fish Oil dosages
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:39 am ((PDT))

Does anyone know where I can find info for fish oil dosages in dogs?

I purchased some for my boys and am not sure how much to give by
weight. Unfortunately, it was a bottle of capsules and all I can find
are suggestions for liquid dosages.

Suggestions? Sources?

thanks!

Kae

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Fish Oil dosages
Posted by: "emmiemileslouie" lklora@sbcglobal.net emmiemileslouie
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:15 am ((PDT))

> Does anyone know where I can find info for fish oil dosages in dogs?
> Kae

Hi Kae,

Check out message # 138076 that ChrisO posted.

Linda

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6.1. Re: question
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:40 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/21/2007 9:02:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kcrockett@mac.com writes:

I realize variety is better . . . but, theoretically, would checken,
including organs, be
sufficient?

Katie,

certainly just chicken is better than just kibble.. so i may be possible..
but then dogs survive on kibble, most of the time anyway..

if your budget is so tight that chicken seems to be all you can afford in the
short term, then my all means feed chicken. But if you go to the larger
mainstream grocery stores you're just as likely to find pork for the same price or
cheaper than chicken on any given day. And the ethnic grocery stores often
carry wide selections of organ meats for less than the regular price of a whole
frying chicken per lb..

then watch the ads.. go to the local meat markets, post on freecycle, flirt
with a butcher.. whatever you have to do to get other kinds of meat into the
diet at a reduced cost.

here is a handy website for checking the ads of the large mainstream grocery
stores in the US.

_http://www.sundaysaver.com/#3_ (http://www.sundaysaver.com/#3)

find a co-op or buying group in your area that buys in bulk.. that is a BIG
money saver there.. that is how i first figured out a way to be able to afford
to feed my 9 LARGE dogs all raw. And i've found other sources along the way,
but the bulk buying groups are still where the biggest portion of my wolf chow
money goes.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (68)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:19 am ((PDT))

Anthony,
It is really getting hot in Southern Ca this week and hotter still. I'm in Northern CA. And my Zeus is a Great Dane, and he only eats when he is hungry, so it's very frustrating when he looks so thin. But our vet said he is healthy, so let him be. He will eat when he is hungry. If you are sure he isn't getting fed by someone else, and he seems to still have his normal energy and seems like himself, and eats some of his food, just not enough to satisfy your needs, then maybe he is satisfying his own needs, and he's done. And it sounds like he's a pretty big guy, so on the raw diet, it doesn't really take alot to keep you at a certain weight, your body keeps what it needs and gets rid of what it doesn't, and lets you know when you need more. When my dogs really burned alot of energy on some days, they attack the fridge for more food, so I always keep a chicken defrosted for those days when they may need a little extra meal. Sometimes they don't
even eat half of what I give them.
Tonight, Zena ate all her chicken half and tried to get what Zeus had left. He ate half of his half, and guarded the other half, I'll save it for him for in the morning, since it's been hot today, he'll be hungrier then.
See if your neighbors haven't seen anyone feeding him, or do you leave cat food out, or do you have a walker come over that feeds him too? Check those things out, if not, it's probably just him, self regulating his own diet, dogs do on the raw diet, and I know it's hard to believe a dog won't eat when it's full, but when they are truely satiated, and happy, it happens, they are content, and don't need more and know it. And we don't want him too heavy and he knows that too:)
I wouldn't worry about changing it up too much, he's been eating this way for a while, he's used to it by now, it's probably his way of saying he's full. I was shocked when Zeus did it too, and took him to the vet. I was sure he was sick. Zena eats what isn't nailed down. Really, if you don't move fast enough, you're dinner! So we were worried he wasn't normal. The vet is skinny too and said he wasn't sick why should Zeus be?! (I think we insulted all skinny people, and the dogs) So, it's not so bad, and he won't loose too much weight, you'll see. Keep it up, and let us know if anything changes.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:20 am ((PDT))

Stop the transition and JUST DO IT ok that was so NIKE of me. Sorry, but nothing wrong with the way you are doing it, except you are depriving your dog of a great diet. Give the food to a rescue group, and give your dog the good stuff. He already did his happy dance, let him do the disco, you'll love it and so will he! And no ground meat, give him hunks of the stuff, he needs to chew his food. But start out with one source of meat, like just chicken, for several weeks so he gets used to it. And there really shouldn't be any runny pooos, unless there is too much bone in the diet, you can add more meat to help with that, like more boneless meat, like breast and thighs. Goodluck, and welcome.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Hello, I'm new to the group...=)
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:21 am ((PDT))

You got it, only meat, and that's all you need, that includes fish, and you won't need to add the fish oil.:) No need for veggies, that is the BARF diet, and we do the prey model diet here, which is more the way of the wolfs, and so much easier. At superwalmart, you can buy chickens, whole ones, and start them on that. For the little guys, you could do game hens, with them on dinner mats on the floors. Teach them to eat their food on the floor. Bigger guys on the mat outside if you want. My danes are crate eaters. My pomchi eats out of a dish in the house, with the cat. Read the book online by Tom Lonsdale called Work Wonders, on www.rawmeatybones.com and look at the easy menu plan there too, it's funny and it is so easy, and you will see that you should have been doing it all along. Stick with one meat source for a few weeks until you get the hang of it. If you go with whole chickens, they have your meat, with your bones, and your organs,
included in the whole bird, divy the organs up amongst the critters once a week and your set until you are more comfortable with what you have read and the research you are doing.
Oh, don't do chicken backs, not enough meat, and too much bone, you will get runny poos all around, that is a big mistake people start out with because backs are cheap. Do the whole chicken, and cut it up, and give parts to each dog depending on what you think they can chew up, and leave the rest for a different meal. For the little ones, game hens, cut into halfs and halfs again, they should eat about 2% of their ideal body weight. If each dog gets it's own individual bird, to start with, they wind up getting all the nutrition they need in that one bird. They don't have to get all the nutrition in each exact meal, it adds up in several meals and thats how it is done.
You'll get the hang of it, and do the reading, you'll love it, and your dogs will too.
Welcome, and keep us posted.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10. whole side of lamb - how to instruct butcher to cut?
Posted by: "quiltingtuppy" mamacass@iprimus.com.au quiltingtuppy
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:21 am ((PDT))

Hi All,

I'm fortunate to be able to join an organic lamb bulk order at a great price, I'll be ordering a
whole side of lamb. Obviously the family will be eating the better bits but, being new at raw
feeding, not sure what to ask the butcher to do. If I don't speak up, he cuts them into
standard supermarket cuts. Could someone please enlighten me? I have a medium sized
dog.

Many thanks,
Stephanie

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: freezing meat
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:25 am ((PDT))

yep, all the time, repeating it all the time, over and over again. And again, did I say yes?! And not just chicken. All meats.
Even freezer burn meat is ok for the dogs, really. It's fine.
They can handle it. So can you. You'll see:)
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------