[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11941

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Iodine requirments
From: Olga

2a. Re: If it's not one thing, it's another!
From: Sonja

3a. Vet disagrees with raw
From: luvthegsd
3b. Re: Vet disagrees with raw
From: basilbourque
3c. Re: Vet disagrees with raw
From: Sandee Lee
3d. Re: Vet disagrees with raw
From: tottime47

4. Country style pork ribs at Kroger store.......
From: tottime47

5a. Re: 7mo puppy--switching to raw ?
From: Olga
5b. Re: 7mo puppy--switching to raw ?
From: Kelly P

6a. Re: She is getting sick every night
From: Sonja

7a. Re: Fish Oil dosages
From: Olga
7b. Re: Fish Oil dosages
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: 2-3% feeding amounts
From: Melissa

9. Is this canned tripe any good for emergency stock up/traveling on ro
From: Yasuko herron

10a. Re: Does it matter?
From: tottime47

11a. Re: rats!
From: cooniefish@aol.com

12.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet (new vet)
From: cooniefish@aol.com

13.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: cooniefish@aol.com
13.2. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: cooniefish@aol.com

14a. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: basilbourque
14b. Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: Putz Family Farm
14c. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
From: Laurie Swanson

15a. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: chaparraltrail

16. leaving bones with pup
From: Michael Moore

17. Help-10 mo Dane to start on raw
From: karimlizette

Messages
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1a. Re: Iodine requirments
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:32 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, blechatlb@... wrote:
> I contacted Dr. Jean Dodds and asked her about kelp supplementation as
> I have a hypothyroid dog - she said that kibble fed dogs can be
> supplemented 3 x a week (because kibble already has a lot of iodine)
> and raw fed dogs can be given kelp daily...

I would view this as very different from your average dog, given that
there is already a health issue present. And sometimes in these cases
we have to stray from the ideal diet a bit. However I would be having
detailed testing done so that a proper dosage and supplementation
protocol can be determined, along with follow-up tests to gauge it's
effectiveness.

Olga

Messages in this topic (14)
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2a. Re: If it's not one thing, it's another!
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:32 am ((PDT))

I hadn't thought of a nerve pinch....hmmm. I'll have to look into that. Would it be possible that a nerve pinch would cause enough pain to last a day? Most of the time she's up and running in 5 minutes, but on one occasion it lasted the entire day and through the night.....but on that particular day she kept laying on it in an awkward position. There is another off-the-wall possibility....her microchip migrated into one of her shoulders a few years ago...I don't remember which one. We're wondering if it went into the elbow area, so getting her scanned is on the list of things to do!

We did try pork once...I had forgotten about that. Her reaction to pork wasn't as severe as to chicken, but she didn't tolerate it as well as turkey.

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Vet disagrees with raw
Posted by: "luvthegsd" kdnhs@verizon.net luvthegsd
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:34 am ((PDT))

Ok, I took my cat to the vet yesterday for routine exam and shots and
decided to talk to my vet about raw feeding to see what he thought.
Now I know why most on this list say not to even bring up raw feeding
to your vet. I told him I was feeding raw to my dogs because of a
suspected allergy in one of my dogs. Her muzzle was always kind of
raw and she itched and scratched it all the time and has constant ear
infections, so he said, yep, that is most likely an allergy. First he
told me that he does not recommend raw feeding at all because the
dogs could get samonella and they are not protected against it like
most say. Then he went on to tell me that freezing the meat for a
period of time would not kill all of the parasites either. He said,
dogs are not like wolves, they are domesticated and different. I was
like, what? And he said, besides, wolves don't live much longer than
3 or 4 in the wild because of their food intake, whereas domestic
dogs and cats live into their teens. I told him that since I started
on raw, the stools are much smaller and her muzzle cleared up. He
then told me that she probably just had some acne and it cleared on
its own, not because of the food, this was after telling me it was an
allergy. He told me to buy a dog food with the smallest number of
ingredientts. Well, I thought to myself, raw food, 1 ingredient, has
to be best, but I didn't say that to him.

Kris

Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Vet disagrees with raw
Posted by: "basilbourque" wildbasil@pobox.com basilbourque
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:28 pm ((PDT))

> Now I know why most on this list say not to even bring up raw feeding
> to your vet.

> I told him that since I started
> on raw, … her muzzle cleared up.

> He
> then told me that she probably just had some acne

I laughed out loud reading that!

I don't think we'll make much progress changing older vets minds. This will be a "paradigm
shift" for vets. Just as the geology profession refused to accept plate tectonic theory until the
older geologists died off. You can't teach an old dog new tricks! :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift

--Basil Bourque

Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: Vet disagrees with raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:36 pm ((PDT))

Well, this guy is just a bundle of misinformation, isn't he? DUH!!!! But
that is exactly why we cannot rely on the majority of vets for nutritional
information.

He also needs a refresher course in immunology if he is routinely
vaccinating your pets, but of course that subject is *way* off topic for
this list! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "luvthegsd" <kdnhs@verizon.net>

Ok, I took my cat to the vet yesterday for routine exam and shots and
decided to talk to my vet about raw feeding to see what he thought.
Now I know why most on this list say not to even bring up raw feeding
to your vet.

Messages in this topic (4)
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3d. Re: Vet disagrees with raw
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:45 pm ((PDT))

Hi Kris,

This type of vet reminds me of a surgeon. Go to one and ask about
alternate ways of treating your disease and they will tell you their
way is best, lol.

You really need to find a vet who will support your decision to feed
raw, if for no other reason than if you have a problem they won't
immediately blame it on the raw diet and look no further for the real
problem.

My vet admitted he didn't know much about feeding a totally raw, prey
model diet, but the important thing was he was very open minded about
it and said if I knew how to feed then we would work with that. Not a
single word about samonella or parasites.......

He never feels threatened by my questions and if we disagree he will
tell me why he thinks his way is best and then leave the final
decision up to me, as after all it is my dog.....

Every time I take him in, he compliments me on how healthy he now
looks and asks more & more about the way I am feeding him...someday
I hope to get him to change some of his other patients over!

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "luvthegsd" <kdnhs@...> wrote:

Ok, I took my cat to the vet yesterday for routine exam and shots and
decided to talk to my vet about raw feeding to see what he thought.
Now I know why most on this list say not to even bring up raw feeding
to your vet.

Kris

Messages in this topic (4)
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4. Country style pork ribs at Kroger store.......
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

Hi All,

Just had to post this!

Hubby's turning into a hunter too! Yea!

He just brought home a hugh package of country style pork ribs.
Now, I know some say don't buy them as they have small / cut bones,
but these are really something........
10 ribs in the package, 6 have NO BONE at all, the average weight of
one rib was over 7 oz and to top it all off, they were on sale/marked
down and he got the whole package for $5!(normal price was $14.69)
I'm sending him out hunting more often, lol...

So shop early, check those meat markdowns and look for meaty ribs!

Carol, Charkee & Moli (bring um on!)

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: 7mo puppy--switching to raw ?
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jo11931" <jo11931@...> wrote:
> buying whole chickens tends to be the most economical.
Yes, I would go for the whole chickens, or chicken leg quarters.
Depending on the size of your pup, you'll probably want to cut the
chicken into 4 chunks. Cut through the breastbone, just off-center,
and then the same along the back. Then cut those halves in half,
between the breast and thigh.

> Does he need ground chicken because he is still a pup?
> Meaning he isn't given a big piece with a bone.
No, he definitely doesn't need ground! And at 7 months old, he can
eat anything that an adult can. A big hunk of meat with a bone inside
of it is the best thing for him. And as the meat will cushion the
bone as they get chewed together, it's also the safest.

> Are there any bones from any meat that we should avoid
> because of choking problems?
Avoid any small, sharply cut bones, like from pork chops or steaks,
for example.

> I am also wondering what is a good bone he can have to
> knaw on that will take a while for him to get through?
You're asking about a recreational bone, I'm guessing also known as a
rec/wreck bone. They're called wreck bones for a reason - they wear
down teeth prematurely and can cause slab fractures. Stay away from
these and instead try to find him food that requires effort, so he
won't need additional chewing.

It can be a lot of info at first, but you'll figure it all out and
soon you'll wonder why it seemed complicated. Have fun! :)

Olga

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: 7mo puppy--switching to raw ?
Posted by: "Kelly P" picklesrfree@yahoo.com picklesrfree
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:24 pm ((PDT))

Hi!

I too have a 7 mos old pup, but rawfed from 12 wks. At 7 mos, your
dog probably has all his adult teeth, so I wouldn't worry about his
crunching through bones. Besides, my Jessie got through chicken
bones quite easily with puppy teeth at 12 weeks. Chicken bones (and
those of other small birds/animals) are soft in comparison so they
make great starters for your dog to chew on and learn how to eat.

The best advice I can give is to quit worrying and go for it. You
will feel confident and good about the whole thing in less than a
week after switching. Don't be surprised if your dog has runny poo
at first or even pukes up some of the first meal. He'll be getting
used to it so relax and have fun with this. You'll see a HUGE change
in your dog during feeding time. I know my dog can't wait to get
outside to eat and since she wont take her eyes off me or the
food...she runs into things. I love dogs ^^

Kelly

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: She is getting sick every night
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

When our Labrador was a puppy she frequently vomited. After thinking about what we were doing wrong, we realized that she threw up on the days we fed her earlier so that we could go out on the town. If your dog is consistently throwing up yellow bile, try giving her a snack before bedtime and see if it helps. If she's throwing up stuff other than yellow bile, then the snack before bed might not help.

Sonja

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7a. Re: Fish Oil dosages
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kaebruney" <kaebruney@...> wrote:
> Since I am using pills and have 2 small dogs, should I supplement
> weekly? I don't want to over do it.

How big are your dogs?

You could do either of two things:
- pierce the capsule and squeeze the contents out to divide between them
- give them a capsule each every 2-3 days

You don't have to be strict about it, just like everything else about
a raw diet, unless you're treating a medical issue. Fish oil can
loosen stools for some dogs, so depending on how much you're giving,
you may want to start at a smaller dose and work up.

Olga

Messages in this topic (9)
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7b. Re: Fish Oil dosages
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:28 pm ((PDT))

"kaebruney" <kaebruney@...> wrote:
> I looked up the info and understand the 1000mg (180/120) per 20lbs
> daily for maintenance.
>
> Since I am using pills and have 2 small dogs, should I supplement
> weekly? I don't want to over do it.
*****
You can do half a pill (capsule?) every day or a whole one every other
day. If your menu includes grassfed livestock and high O3 fish, you
may choose to supplement less often even that that.

A standard feedlot livestock/factory poultry diet could easily take a
capsule every other day.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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8a. Re: 2-3% feeding amounts
Posted by: "Melissa" mwood8402@yahoo.com mwood8402
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:39 am ((PDT))

I'm a little late on this topic, but I just wanted to point out that
my 22 lb Sheltie gets around 12-14 oz per day to maintain his weight.
And he's no fatty. The vet even said he is borderline too thin.
(Though he's used to seeing dogs that are fatties.) But he's young
and very active. So it really does depend on the dog. As the others
said, go by his body condition. I started out feeding 2-3% and he got
too thin after a couple of weeks.

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Tweeddale Mitchell"
<duckndogs@...> wrote:
> According to my research a 50 lb dog should get about a pound of
food. Giving a 35# Sheltie that amount would like be too much food.
My adult Labs get
> about one pound per day.
>
> Cathy

Messages in this topic (5)
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9. Is this canned tripe any good for emergency stock up/traveling on ro
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:41 am ((PDT))

://www.sitstay.com/store/edibles/tripett.shtml

I was googling and found this. Do you think this is good to keep around for road trip or emergency stock up?

I was looking ingredients and I saw veggie something or garlic etc and was not sure if it is still do what tripe can do good to dogs.

Any comments will be appreciated.

thanks

yassy

---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

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10a. Re: Does it matter?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:42 am ((PDT))

Hi Brandi,

Yes, whole chickens are the best to buy and should be the cheapest,
in cost per pound.

Ask the meat manager if you can buy them cheaper if you buy a case.
Sometimes they will sell them even cheaper than what it's marked.

Ask how many in a case and what they weigh so you'll know a case cost.

Also ask about beef heart and what the price of it is. Beef heart is
usually a good second meat to start on and very reasonabe in price,
dollar a pound or less......

Also a lot of the stores are selling country style pork ribs here
at 99 cents a pound.
Got 10 ribs for $5 so could easily tell that's a lot of meat on
each one and a good buy.
Don't buy if they don't have lots of meat on them.....

Tip: It's best to go early in the morning as that is when most stores
put out there marked down meats. You could also ask the butcher when
they place them out......they go fast, lol.......

Good luck and happy shopping!

Carol, Charkee & Moli(dad got us meaty ribs today for 99 cents a
pound!)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...>
wrote:

I'm assuming that it's alright to get whole fryers?
Or is a whole chicken preferred?

Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

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11a. Re: rats!
Posted by: "cooniefish@aol.com" cooniefish@aol.com luckypuppy197136
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:55 am ((PDT))

Hi! Well, I know that the rats that live in my attic LOVE meat! Any kind of
red meat especially! I do trap and release them (and even this I feel bad
about) and pork seems to be the best bait! Good luck with your rat!


Sam

In a message dated 8/22/2007 9:40:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
rigleyman@aol.com writes:

I just inherited a very sick rat last night. I suspect the poor dear
is suffering from nutritional deficiencies since it has eaten "rat
diet" all its 3 years of life. From my research - rats eat meat, nuts,
seeds, vegetables, etc.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (3)
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12.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet (new vet)
Posted by: "cooniefish@aol.com" cooniefish@aol.com luckypuppy197136
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:00 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/21/2007 10:45:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
chaparraltrail@yahoo.com writes:

Here is her website. If you are in the So Cal area, perhaps she will
be a good match for you.

_http://www.foundershttp://_ (http://www.foundersvet.com/)

Thank you!

Sam

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Messages in this topic (39)
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13.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "cooniefish@aol.com" cooniefish@aol.com luckypuppy197136
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:00 pm ((PDT))

Oh, my vet has ALL the answers LOL. We have been arguing this for years. He
told me that the hills diet has branched chain amino acids which the liver
can handle better than aromatic amino acids and on and on. He really does have
his own reasoning. I told him I'd rather find a natural, non-processed source
of branched chain aminos and whatever else is reccomended and we left it at
that.

Thanks
Sam


In a message dated 8/22/2007 6:20:28 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com writes:

You certainly should start asking the vet tough questions like "Why?
What does a 'low protein' get my dog in this situation? How does
protein affect liver function? Wouldn't it be more important for the
dog to have highly digestable protein rather than low protein? Is it
some other nutrient balance, rather than the actual protein content,
that you are trying to fix via the low protein kibble?"

Sometimes the vets lay out standard "treatment plans" without giving the
reasoning behind them

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Messages in this topic (39)
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13.2. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "cooniefish@aol.com" cooniefish@aol.com luckypuppy197136
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:13 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/22/2007 8:15:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
Cdandp2@aol.com writes:

For nutrition help go to K9KidneyDiet at Yahoo groups. They're a kidney
failure group but someone on there will know where to direct you for liver
problems as well

Thank you, I will look!

sam

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (39)
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14a. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "basilbourque" wildbasil@pobox.com basilbourque
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:09 pm ((PDT))

> P.S. I
> live in Tacoma Washington so if anyone has a nice place shop please
> share. (I usally hit up my local Asian food market)

I have been quite happy for over a year feeding my big dog prepared frozen raw meals
delivered in styrofoam boxes by the local Seattle company Darwin's Natural Pet Products.

http://www.darwinspet.com/

They make 1 & 2 pound flat 'bricks', using 2/3 natural free-range meats (bone, organ, and
muscle) and 1/3 organic vegetables. They offer buffalo, chicken, turkey, and beef. No
grains, chemicals or preservatives. Costs between $3 to $4 per pound, including delivery.

They may not deliver to Tacoma, but you may be able to pick up your order at their
location near Boeing Field Airport between highways 509 & 99. But call them first to
coordinate, ahead of time. They do not have a storefront.

To buy retail, at a higher price, go to Urban Beast, a pet store across the street from the
big REI store in downtown Seatle.
http://www.urbanbeast-seattle.com/

So now I am a vegetarian with a freezer full of frozen meat!

For occasional treats, I have been getting beef back ribs for $2.50/lb from Whole Foods
Market, also known as Whole Paycheck. ;-) You have to ask for them, they are never on
display. They brag about sourcing only naturally raised meats, and claim to verify their
sources. Unfortunately, on my last visit the butcher informed me that they are trying to get
the ribs with more meat on them, as currently much of the meat is removed for
hamburger. That may mean higher cost. They were perfect for dog snacks!

--Basil Bourque

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14b. Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "Putz Family Farm" atcar5@hughes.net atcar5
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi Katie,

I know what you mean about not being able to eat all bones.
I have pugs and they are able to handle all chicken bones
I also give them pork steaks with a smaller bone in it.
They gnaw on the bone pretty well and when it gets too small -
I usually take it away if I can find it, if not they have been able
to handle it. Also, I have given them turkey necks in the past.
You might also try rabbit and duck.

They do not eat bones like my Akita used to, crunch & munch
and they were gone!

Sheryl

Messages in this topic (4)
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14c. Re: Anyone feed bracheocephalic dogs?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:51 pm ((PDT))

My 20 lb. Boston fits that category, but his snout is slightly longer
than some. He doesn't have any problems, except at first he was more
of a gulper--I think he was just excited about his new food and it was
a bit of a process to learn how to eat it. What is the peke doing,
exactly, that is a problem?

I'm in Seattle and the WA/OR buying co-op is here:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/wazzuor_barf/

Asian markets are usually good. And someone else posted that
Albertson's in Seattle (check Tacoma) has beef and pork ribs for .10/lb
right now! I'd go for the pork--the beef bones are not as edible/more
of a tooth damage risk (although I do sometimes feed them and remove
the bones after they're cleaned--and there are some that have dogs who
eat the whole bone).

Laurie

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15a. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:51 pm ((PDT))

> my neighbor was throwing dinner rolls
> over the fence...I went over there after work and
> nicely sugested that they keep their eyes out as
> someone is throwing food over my fence and I don't
> want that.

Congrats on keeping your cool! Hopefully, the neighbor will get the
message and STOP! Very tactful method of approach...

Lori

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16. leaving bones with pup
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:57 pm ((PDT))

>>I often give my pup frozen bones if I am out for the day - they keep
her occupied for ages.<<

Okay, this statement has been bothering me, so I'll comment -- IMO, puppies and adult dogs for that matter, should be supervised when eating bones.
Although few of the listers have ever had a problem, I think it makes sense to be "around" when bones are consumed, lest something happen that we might assist with. I've been rawfeeding for 6 yrs., and even with the adults who have been rawfed that length of time, I still hang around to make sure all is well when they're fed. Perhaps that's just me, but to do otherwise feels irresponsible to me.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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17. Help-10 mo Dane to start on raw
Posted by: "karimlizette" karimlizette@gmail.com karimlizette
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:10 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

I have a 10 mo dane, Bronco and want to start him on raw. He has been
on Nutro & Eagle Pack and just developed folliculitis. Previously, when
about 6 mos he had puppy mange. With everything that has been going on
with the dog food industry I feel like I have made a wise choice. Is
there someone with Dane experience that can help me get started. I am
worried about his health and want to do the right thing.

Messages in this topic (1)
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