[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12459

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: worried
From: homesforallpets

2a. Pork Chittlings?
From: homesforallpets
2b. Re: Pork Chittlings?
From: costrowski75

3a. Losing weight! Need advice!
From: millser25
3b. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: Andrea
3c. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: millser25
3d. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: Tina Berry
3e. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: Yasuko herron
3f. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: ekendahl
3g. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: zcdz@aol.com
3h. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: costrowski75
3i. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: millser25
3j. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!/pork belly meat
From: Laurie Swanson

4a. Re: Chicken issues???
From: carnesbill
4b. Re: Chicken issues???
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
From: Sandee Lee

6a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: divasdesignerstore

7a. Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
From: SoldierGrrrl
7b. Re: Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
From: Sandee Lee
7c. Re: Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
From: ekendahl

8a. Supplpements, Vit E, etc
From: T Smith
8b. Re: Supplpements, Vit E, etc
From: costrowski75
8c. Re: Supplpements, Vit E, etc
From: carnesbill

9a. Re: Help! Only tolerates chicken qtrs.
From: Giselle

10a. Re: Allergy
From: Yasuko herron

Messages
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1.1. Re: worried
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:20 am ((PST))

One of their dogs just died all of a sudden. They
> have no idea what happened. They just went out and found her dead.
> Now I am having second thoughts as to whether it was something caused
> by the bones.

Did they have a necropsy done? If not you will never know what
happened. Also how old was the dog? I would not sweat it it was
probably NOT the diet.

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (30)
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2a. Pork Chittlings?
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:21 am ((PST))

What are these and are they ok to give dogs? Walmart has two sized
packages but all it says is they are chittlings from pigs.

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Pork Chittlings?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:36 pm ((PST))

"homesforallpets" <homesforallpets@...> wrote:
>
> What are these and are they ok to give dogs? Walmart has two sized
> packages but all it says is they are chittlings from pigs.
*****
That's cuz they are. Chitterlings ("chitlins") are cleaned and
processed pig intestines. They along with cleaned and processed cow
stomach (tripe) go into some interesting ethic and regional foods but
they do not need to go into your dog.

Pass 'em up.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:23 am ((PST))

Sorry this is so long, but I really need help!
I've been feeding raw to my 2 year old GSD mix for about a year and
half. Things have been great for the most part. We've been going
through a learning curve together. For the past couple months, I've
been having some troubles with him, though. He's lost a little weight
and I can't put it back on. He dropped from 85 to about 80 pounds,
but he should weigh about 87 -90 pounds. His poop is normal and his
behavior is normal, but his coat has gotten kind of rough, and he's
been shedding terribly and he's gotten a patch of very dry and flaky
skin. He's also been fasting himself a lot. He'll refuse to eat
about 2 or 3 days a week, and he's not eating enough on the days he
does eat.
I think we're out of balance and I need some advice to get back on
track and fatten him up. Here's our routine:
I feed him twice a day, most days and usually vary the feeding times.
Breakfast is usually between 7:30AM and 12:00, and dinner is usually
between 6:00PM and 10:30PM (a later breakfast calls for a later
dinner, of course). We usually skip breakfast on doggie day care days
and I offer a larger than normal dinner. I've been offering chicken,
beef, pork, and green tripe.
Chicken: I buy whole fryers and roasters when on sale, and he prefers
them quartered.
Beef: I usually offer ribs when they're cheap and readily available in
the summer, but this winter they've been harder to find, so I buy
whatever cut is on cheap mark down, which is often pot roast. I offer
them in approximately one pound strips. He doesn't really like huge
hunks of food, and will refuse to eat them, so I have to cut the hunks
into strips so they are still large enough that they require a lot of
chewing, but small enough that he doesn't feel intimidated.
Pork: Pork riblets are a staple. In addition, I buy whatever cut is
marked down and cheap, and of course stay away from belly meat.
Green Tripe: I provide one pound of green tripe twice a week.
Organs: here is where we're really out of balance and I need help. I
just can't figure out how much and how often to feed them. He doesn't
like organs, so I have to cut them in to tiny pieces and mix them with
his tripe or freeze them. At this point, I'm just kind of feeding
them randomly.
Other: When his skin started getting dry and flaky, I added an oil
supplement. After about a week or so of that, his fur is starting to
get greasy and dull. And, he is getting that "dog" smell about him.
Although, the dandruff has certainly subsided.

I really need to help him put on at least 5 pounds but preferably 7-10
pounds. I can see that he's not healthy right now, but I just don't
know how to help him. I'm desperate for advice.
Thank you!
Erica

Messages in this topic (10)
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3b. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:51 am ((PST))

The first thing I would do is switch to once a day feeding. I'd try
to feed more pork and beef than chicken as well. It sounds like he's
pretty fussy and he's making you do a lot more work than you need
to. Besides the fur how does he look? Are you starting to see all
of his ribs (or feel them clearly if his coat is long)?

As far as the organs, don't worry too much about them right now. But
if it makes you feel better you can measure out a week's worth of
organ and do your darndest to get him to eat it throughout the week.
If you're feeding him around 1.5lbs a day you would want to give him
about a pound of organ a week (half liver half something else).
Again, don't stress if you aren't getting that much, just keep it as
a target.

> When his skin started getting dry and flaky, I added an oil
> supplement. After about a week or so of that, his fur is starting
> to get greasy and dull. And, he is getting that "dog" smell about
> him.

What kind of oil supplement were you using? Try using fish body oil
(not cod liver oil) for the coat. My dogs have never gotten greasy
coats from fish oil, so hopefully that will help his skin.

So, feed only once a day and try to feed red meat instead of
chicken. Once you are more satisfied with his eating practices we
can work on his fussiness. Let us know how it goes.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (10)
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3c. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:27 pm ((PST))

Thanks Andrea,
Oh yeah, he's really bony. He's got a long coat, but you can
easily feel his ribs. My target weight for him is 87-90 pounds so I'd
like to get him to eat about 1.75-2.5 pounds per day. He's probably
only eating about 1 - 1.5 per day. I've noticed that he's started to
develop some eye goop for the first time. Just these last couple
months, about the same time as his skin started drying out, I noticed
that he'd wake up most mornings with a big boogie in one or both eyes.
I don't know if that is indicative or anything, but he's never had
that before.
So, the symptoms I'm noticing are weight loss, and being very
skinny, frequent fasting and reduced appetite, terrible shedding, dry
flaky skin, dull greasy coat, and eye boogies.
The oil supplement I've been giving his is "Dream Coat". The
ingredients are: Soybean Oil, Wheatgerm Oil, Safflower Oil, Sunflower
Oil, Garlic Oil, Cod Liver Oil, Anise.
Thanks for the help!!
Erica

Messages in this topic (10)
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3d. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:52 pm ((PST))

"I feed him twice a day, most days and usually vary the feeding times.
Breakfast is usually between 7:30AM and 12:00, and dinner is usually between
6:00PM and 10:30PM (a later breakfast calls for a later
dinner, of course). We usually skip breakfast on doggie day care days and I
offer a larger than normal dinner. I've been offering chicken, beef, pork,
and green tripe. Chicken: I buy whole fryers and roasters when on sale, and
he prefers them quartered. "

This sounds like a good mix of meats. I would first find out if anything is
medically wrong with him but only let a licensed homeopath treat him - vets
are good for running some tests.

If there is nothing medically wrong, I would also suggest once a day
feedings, sounds like he has you trained ;-)

My big boy should weigh 95lbs and he gets 1.25 lbs once a day of venison, a
daily egg and fishoil. If I want him to gain weight, I feed more. I also
run him 2 miles per day (playing fetch so I don't have to run). I probably
average 2% of his ideal body weight since he also gets a large meaty bone
every other day or so.

So if nothing is wrong with your boy, feed him once a day at different times
if you can, this will increase his appetite only eating once a day and
hopefully make him not as picky. By switching two once a day, he won't feel
full all of the time. I would try this first.

My order of meats that IMO are the best is red meat, wild if you can get it,
which is why I feed 100% venison. If you can't get red meat, then turkey,
pork, chicken are next.

Oh, and ditch the "dream coat" feed 100% salmon oil - the oil you are
feeding is GRAIN. Which is like feeding him grain everyday - which is why
you are most likely getting the reaction you are getting.

If you are occassionally feeding liver, no need for cod liver oil, this is
Vit A & D and you can feed too much in supplements and it is absorbed by the
body, it is not water soluble like Vit C. Liver is sufficient.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (10)
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3e. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:53 pm ((PST))

>The oil supplement I've been giving his is "Dream Coat". The
ingredients are: Soybean Oil, Wheatgerm Oil, Safflower Oil, Sunflower
Oil, Garlic Oil, Cod Liver Oil, Anise.

Is this "dream coat" for better coat?? If so,stop the Dream Coat supplement andgive fish body oil.That is much better.

yassy

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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3f. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:53 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
> I've noticed that he's started to develop some eye goop for the
first > time. Just these last couple months, about the same time as
his skin > started drying out, I noticed that he'd wake up most
mornings with a
> big boogie in one or both eyes.I don't know if that is indicative or
> anything, but he's never had that before.

My two German Shepherds both have gunk in the morning (I find it kinda
cute), so it's probably not indicative of anything.

Have you taken him to the vet? From what you describe it to me feels
like something more then diet is going on.

> The oil supplement I've been giving his is "Dream Coat". The
> ingredients are: Soybean Oil, Wheatgerm Oil, Safflower Oil,
> Sunflower, Oil, Garlic Oil, Cod Liver Oil, Anise.

Ungh, Not sure I would feed my pets that stuff... Seems like a start
of an upset stomach to me.

I heard from my breeder that soybeans are a common allergen for dogs.
Not sure what she based that on.

But if I where you I would worry more about weight and refusing to eat
then fur at this point and eliminate this supplement for now.

Does he have normal energy?

/Robert Ekendahl

Messages in this topic (10)
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3g. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "zcdz@aol.com" zcdz@aol.com zziska
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:53 pm ((PST))

Erica,

Apologies if this has already been addressed. Are his gums pale? Is his
energy down? For weight loss and loss of appetite you should take him to the
vet- especially if this is a recent and sudden change in his attitude.

Ziska
www.ziskac.blogspot.com

**************
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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3h. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:10 pm ((PST))

"millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
> I've been feeding raw to my 2 year old GSD mix for about a year and
> half. Things have been great for the most part. We've been going
> through a learning curve together. For the past couple months, I've
> been having some troubles with him, though. He's lost a little
weight
> and I can't put it back on. He dropped from 85 to about 80 pounds,
> but he should weigh about 87 -90 pounds. His poop is normal and his
> behavior is normal, but his coat has gotten kind of rough, and he's
> been shedding terribly and he's gotten a patch of very dry and flaky
> skin. He's also been fasting himself a lot. He'll refuse to eat
> about 2 or 3 days a week, and he's not eating enough on the days he
> does eat.
*****
Job One IMO is to get bloodwork done including a full thyroid
workup. While you are waiting for an appointment and results you can
be reworking the menu. The changes you describe are just too
numerous and profound to lay off solely on diet.

I've been offering chicken,
> beef, pork, and green tripe.
*****
Green tripe is not generally fatty; if you know the version you feed
is, good; if you don't know, find out. The green tripe I usually get
comes highly recommended for IBD dogs and to feed pancreatitis
patients because it is quite lean.

> Chicken: I buy whole fryers and roasters when on sale, and he
prefers
> them quartered.
*****
How many quarters do you feed? How big are they? Are they nice and
fatty?

Beef: I usually offer ribs when they're cheap and readily available
in
> the summer, but this winter they've been harder to find, so I buy
> whatever cut is on cheap mark down, which is often pot roast.
*****
Pot roasts are nice and fatty. Beef ribs offer fat but there's just
not a lot of food there, so you may be providing the kid with lots of
stuff but not enough nourishment.

> Pork: Pork riblets are a staple. In addition, I buy whatever cut
is
> marked down and cheap, and of course stay away from belly meat.
*****
Pork riblets are good, yes. Pork is good. Why are you of course
staying away from belly meat?

> Organs: here is where we're really out of balance and I need
help. I
> just can't figure out how much and how often to feed them.
*****
Some, occasionally. I rarely if ever know how much organ meat I am
feeding or have fed. If you need numbers, 5% of your dog's diet can
be liver (doesn't matter which critter, just something he likes).
This can be 5% of each meal or 5% of his monthly menu. Doesn't
matter. Some dogs do better with bits in most meals, other dogs are
comfortable with bigger doses fed less often. Feeding "ramdomly" is
not bad. That pretty much describes how I feed organs.

But my guess is your boy's problems are not related to his organ
intake.

I added an oil
> supplement. After about a week or so of that, his fur is starting
to
> get greasy and dull. And, he is getting that "dog" smell about
him.
> Although, the dandruff has certainly subsided.
*****
The oil supplement you use sounds really really excessive, not to
mention largely inappropriate. Your boy doesn't need a single mg of
plant-based oil. Not a one. Nary a zip taste of the stuff. If you
are going to supplement with oil, use a fish- or marine-based body
oil (salmon, mixed fish, or seal) and that's it.

As described, I see little "wrong" with your menu except maybe a lack
of fat. You can add beef heart for more red meat, including the fat
on it; you might cut back on the tripe if it's lean; you may want to
increase the number of meals as well as the amount of food you offer.

I think bloodwork is a priority here.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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3i. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:36 pm ((PST))

No, his gums are fine and energy level are fine.
I should clarify his lack of appetite - he has a lack of appetite for
what I'm feeding him, but he continues to beg for our food, sneak cat
food, gobble down treats, etc. We went to the in-laws for Christmas,
where they feed kibble to their dog. We put the kibble up so he
couldn't get to it, but he kept hanging around her feeding area and
trolling for misplaced kibbles. He's hungry, he's just trying to win
the battle of wills. I shouldn't have called it lack of appetite.
Erica

Messages in this topic (10)
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3j. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!/pork belly meat
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:36 pm ((PST))

Hi Erica,

I'm just curious why do you stay away from pork belly meat?

Thanks,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:

> Pork: Pork riblets are a staple. In addition, I buy whatever cut is
> marked down and cheap, and of course stay away from belly meat.

Messages in this topic (10)
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4a. Re: Chicken issues???
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:27 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dario" <nanterossi@...> wrote:
>
> Question is: How likely is it a chicken allergy ?

Almost none. 3 weeks on exclusivly chicken is really not a big deal.

> Has anyone had this experience ?

> Should I wait until he has finished his Advocate course ( end
> of Jan) before leaving chicken out of his diet?

I wouldn't leave chicken at this point. Everything that happens to
a dog is not diet related. If you are still feeding chicken only
and he is digesting well, I think it's time to gradually add in
other protein sources.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: Chicken issues???
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:12 pm ((PST))

Most likely not an allergy. It does sound a little like mange, but also
could be the result of Advocate....nasty ingredients with lots of side
effects.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "dario" <nanterossi@yahoo.co.uk>

My Staffordshire puppy is 4.5 months today and has a couple of bald spots.
one above his
left eye near the ear and one on the left shoulder. They seem stable but not
improving. He
is on Advocate. I am considering that maybe its puppy mange...but could I
have overdone
it on the chicken when I gave it to him exclusively, in different forms for
about 3 weeks at
the beginning of his raw feeding. These patches appeared after that and he
has had them
for about 4 weeks.

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: Veg... It seems I;m preaching to the deaf sometimes!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:55 am ((PST))

LOL Evie....been there, done that, even been called names! One lady wrote
me privately and told me I was full of crap! :) I suppose that is a
possibility, but not very likely!! HA!!

But you hit the nail on the head...they don't want to learn. They only want
to defend what they have believed and been doing in the past. One of the
big issues is not being able to discern the difference between fact and
everything else. As we well know, there isn't much fact regarding
appropriate diet on most lists. Many of them are staunch Billinghurst
followers and believe his nonsense about dogs being omnivores, eating the
stomach contents of their prey, etc. To them, cuz he said it, must be true!
:))

Post the real truth (aka facts) with quotes from Mech and others and they
get pissed! There is very little open mindedness or ability to think
logically.
Oh well, kinda like banging your head against a wall. Feels so good when
you quit! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Evie" <archie.willow@yahoo.co.uk>

Well I was accussed of sarcasim (spl?) and vulgarity. So I politely
declinded to take part in the disscussion any further. When someone
is reduced to name calling, it just shows that they have nothing of
intelligence to say and aren't open for an interesting and
enlightening debate. Def not worth the effort!

Messages in this topic (15)
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6a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "divasdesignerstore" divasdesignerstore@yahoo.com divasdesignerstore
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:05 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "divasdesignerstore" <divasdesignerstore@> wrote:>
> >I also think that when you are
> > switching from a kibble diet to a raw appropriate diet it is a
> shock
> > to their stomach.
> *****
> I think it's more a shock to their expectations, to their brain.
And
> to the human. I am sympathetic to your situation but I really do
> believe you are reading into it more difficulty than it warrants.

****
I'm sorry but I would have to disagree.
If I were to eat say a whole chicken for dinner every night for a
year and then one night decide I'm just going to have a chicken leg
instead. I can bet that I am going to be looking for more food
because I won't feel satisfied or as full as I usually do. Whether it
is my brain or my stomach telling me so. I don't think I am reading
to much into it. I think the point I was trying to make was when you
switch to a raw diet they may not feel as full or satisfied as they
once did on a pile of kibble because the amounts are astonishingly
different.
That's like saying an overweight person can go from what they
normally eat to a salad a day and not feel hungry.
>
> My 30 pound dog only gets about a pound of
> > food a day. They are also supposed to be on a diet. ;)
> Hmm.
> A 30# dog in good stead might get two percent of its weight, which
> would would be between 9 and 10 ounces. A day. A 30# dog that's a
> fuel-injected, hemi-headed hot rod might get three percent of its
> weight, or around 14 ounces. Neither scenario justifies 16 ounces
of
> food a day!
>
> If your pug should oughta weigh 30#, feed him between 9 and 10
ounces
> a day. If your pug should oughta weigh less than that, feed him
two
> percent of what he should oughta be. I guarantee the amount is not
> 16 ounces!

****
I meant 1/2 a pound a day. oops my bad :(

> Check the boy's thyroid, feed an appropriate amount of real food,
> exercise him in whatever small ways you can, and stick to it.

****
Thanks I will do that!

> Chris O
>

****Audrey

Messages in this topic (19)
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7a. Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
Posted by: "SoldierGrrrl" soldier.grrrl@gmail.com looking4godgirl
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:53 pm ((PST))

Hi all!

I wanted to drop a quick line and introduce our family and give some
background on us.

Jen- That's me, your lovely author and blonde extraordinaire!

John- My husband, and sometimes, I swear he's a puppy in a boysuit!

Moxie- The 15-17 lb. Horrible Little Dog, also known as the
Four-Legged-Garbage-Disposal-What-Likes-Pickles-and-Apple-Cores. You
can see me, John and Moxie here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/soldiergrrrl/sets/72157603496334314/

So, we adopted Moxie from the shelter in July, and although it's been
a bit of a rocky ride, she's made our lives so much richer!

She does suffer from some food anxiety, since she's convinced that the
only way she's going to survive the impending Great Food and Chewie
Shortage is to eat *everything* in the house that she can Hoover up.
So, I asked about this on the Peaceable Paws list and Giselle directed
me here. I've done a bit of reading and I think I'm getting a handle
on it. I had asked about free-feeding to alleviate the fear of the
food going "poof," and after doing the reading, John and I have
decided to give the raw food a try.

Right now, Moxie just came back from being boarded over our Christmas
trip, and so we're going through the post-kennel blahs (she's been
vaxed for bordatella, but every time she comes back from the kennel,
she's a bit lethargic and tend to run a bit hot, going by the
ear-fins, but I think that's the same post-trip blahs I get.)

Moxie should be at a healthy weight of about 15 lbs. If I feed her
2-3% of her body weight, that works about to about seven ounces a day.
I'd probably round up to eight ounces, but that's because it's much
easier to divide eight ounces up than seven. I'm thinking about
dividing it all up to make four feedings a day, one before work, one
at lunch, one after work and one around our dinner time. Good, bad,
indifferent?

I'm guessing a good scale is needed to weight it all out.

Also, we live in Texas, and God knows deer-hunting is big here. Does
anyone else feed venison?

I'm sure you've all heard the questions six million times, but I
thought an introduction would be a good thing. Thanks for reading
this far!

Jen

--
Blonde. It's not just a hair color; it's a way of life.

http://soldiergrrrl.livejournal.com/

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:14 pm ((PST))

Hi Jen,

Yes, you could start out with four meals per day, but those are going to be
some mighty small meals. You may discover that she will do better with
larger, more fulfilling portions. That's something you will have to
experiment with.

Venison is awesome...better than chicken any day! :)

Oh, and OT for this list but NO more vaccs for this girl *ever*!! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "SoldierGrrrl" <soldier.grrrl@gmail.com>
>
> Moxie should be at a healthy weight of about 15 lbs. If I feed her
> 2-3% of her body weight, that works about to about seven ounces a day.
> I'd probably round up to eight ounces, but that's because it's much
> easier to divide eight ounces up than seven. I'm thinking about
> dividing it all up to make four feedings a day, one before work, one
> at lunch, one after work and one around our dinner time. Good, bad,
> indifferent?

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
Posted by: "ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:37 pm ((PST))

> From: "SoldierGrrrl" <soldier.grrrl@...>
>
> Moxie should be at a healthy weight of about 15 lbs. If I feed her
> 2-3% of her body weight, that works about to about seven ounces a
> day. I'd probably round up to eight ounces

Not sure how you did you math. If I put "15 lbs * 3% to oz" into
google (yes, they have a smart calculator as well) I get 7.2 oz and
"15 lbs * 2% to oz" I get 4.8 oz.

So to me, 8 oz seems like a lot for her. Unless she's very active my
guess would be that 5 oz/day is more appropriate.

/Robert Ekendahl

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Supplpements, Vit E, etc
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:53 pm ((PST))

I need more info about supplementing. And percentages...
I was defending the RMB I was taught as 80% meat, 10% bones, 10% organ (5%
is liver)
Fish oil is your dog doesn't eat real raw fish.

This is what I was sent:
follow this basic regime:

60% Raw Meaty Bones (meat with bone – chicken necks, backs,
etc.)

35% Muscle Meat (meat without bones)

5% Organ Meat (liver, kidney, lungs, etc.)

0% veggie mush

It is from this website:

http://www.rawdogranch.com/rawdietbasics.htm

Which you will see also recommends vite E, etc

I thought only supplements were fish oil, if they didn't eat raw fish? We
give our salmon....

HELP!
Trina

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Supplpements, Vit E, etc
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:29 pm ((PST))

"T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:>
> I need more info about supplementing. And percentages...
> I was defending the RMB I was taught as 80% meat, 10% bones, 10%
organ (5%
> is liver)
> Fish oil is your dog doesn't eat real raw fish.
*****
This is indeed close enough for folk music. The only change I would
make is to suggest feeding fish oil to support the entire diet, not
simply to compensate for missed fish meals. Otherwise, you are good
to go, girl!

> This is what I was sent:
> follow this basic regime:
>
> 60% Raw Meaty Bones (meat with bone – chicken necks,
backs,
> etc.)
>
> 35% Muscle Meat (meat without bones)
>
> 5% Organ Meat (liver, kidney, lungs, etc.)
>
> 0% veggie mush
>
>
> It is from this website:
>
> http://www.rawdogranch.com/rawdietbasics.htm
>
>
> Which you will see also recommends vite E, etc
*****
And all this is someone's idea of a raw diet but I promise you on a
stack of Sears catalogs that it's not ours. Do not think of food in
terms of RMBs, think of body parts with meat, with bone or without
bone. Do not think that chicken necks, backs etc. are appropriate
body parts.

Do not worry about vitamin E. Just fish oil, that's plenty good.

I believe you have been doing quite well with the information you've
received on Rawfeeding. I believe your dogs are settling down,
getting along nicely on the menu you've worked up.

Rawdogranch has its own agenda. If the owner of the website were to
visit the rawfeeding list, we could ask why these recommendations
were made. But that's not likely to happen. Stick with what you'vel
learned, kid. You can't go wrong.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: Supplpements, Vit E, etc
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:36 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:

> I thought only supplements were fish oil, if they didn't eat
> raw fish? We give our salmon....

Trina! Stop that! You go out and read websites and have a tendency
to believe anything you read. Just stop reading sites that you
don't see recommended here. Vitamin E is totally unnecessary. All
the dog needs is in the raw meat, bones, and organs he eats. You
were right originally. No supplements needed. You can give fish
oil of you don't feed fish but nothing else is necessary and I'm not
sure the fish oil is necessary.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: Help! Only tolerates chicken qtrs.
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:01 pm ((PST))

Hi, Uh, I'm not sure what your name is!

With a long time 'gastritis' such as your dog has, I'd suspect IBD/IBS
- Irritable Bowel Disease/Syndrome.

If your girl, what's her name?, were my dog, I would simplify, simplify,
simplify, and provide something soothing for her inflamed and irritated
digestive system while a 'new', refocused diet has a chance to take shape.

1) NO grains or starches
2) NO veggies or fruits
3) NO supps or additives
4) NO people food or 'treats'
5) NO enhanced meats of any kind

1) Rest her digestive system for a day, or two. Offer lf/ls broth, as much
as she wants, chicken or turkey is fine.

2) Whisk Slippery Elm Bark Powder into the broth. This is a soothing herb
that will reduce the irritation and inflammation in her stomach and
intestines while her system rests.

3) When you reintroduce food, feed a different protein - I'd use turkey.
Whole, minimally processed turkeys, cut into serving size portions. Trim all
visible fat. Maybe trim off most of the skin, too. Don't feed the liver, but
the heart and gizzards should be ok.

4) For the first week, I'd feed only meat, no bone, to minimize the
possibility of irritation. I'd plan to gradually reintroduce more bone
gradually, but keep it to a bare minimum of 10% of her total intake, but be
aware that she may do much better on less than even that.

5) Again, for the first week, I'd feed less than a full day's ration - and
divide it into at least 3 meals. Gradually increase the amount to her full
ration - even if she is too thin, I'd keep the daily portion smaller than
her EIABW (estimated ideal adult body weight) - increase her daily ration by
adding a 4th small meal, and increase that gradually.

6) Sprinkle SEBP onto each meal, to keep her innards soothed and reduce the
possibility of a flare up.

7) I'd keep her on the turkey, or chicken and the SEBP (if I elected to use
minimally processed, unenhanced chicken) for several weeks, until she shows
no evidence of irritation or digestive upset and is gaining weight (if she
needs to gain). You can try trimming less and less of the fat and skin, but
most IBD/IBS dogs don't tolerate much fat and skin amounts need to be
strictly controlled.

8) She may not need enzymes or probiotics, I wouldn't start off with them -
but if I were going to introduce them,
a) enzymes are fed with a meal.
b) probiotics are fed between meals
c) I'd use only human grade products that need to be refrigerated and have
no plant based ingredients or additives.
d) I'd start off with a small dose of each, or either, and wean them away
pdq.

9) After several weeks, or a few months, I'd add a bit of liver to one of
her daily meals, maybe only 1/4 of a chicken or turkey liver, about twice or
three times a week. If she tolerated this, its all she really needs of
liver.

10) After she is tolerating the one protein and liver, I'd add another
protein, gradually. I'd do pork next, myself. I'd trim all skin and fat off.
Add a tiny bit to each meal of the chicken/turkey for a day. No problem?
Add a bit more of the pork to each meal, gradually increasing the amount of
pork while decreasing the amount of chicken/turkey, until I was feeding all
pork.

11) After a few weeks of feeding just pork and chicken/turkey, alternately,
I'd begin to introduce a new protein, maybe beef, maybe, rabbit (it may be
too bony), maybe mackerel or sardines or goat or lamb - but each introduced
gradually, with weeks in between for her to adjust to each addition. And
after a few new proteins are added, I'd introduce several new organs -
kidney, spleen, sweetbreads, etc. in the same small portions that the liver
was introduced.

12) With each addition of a new protein or organ, I'd continue to sprinkle
SEBP on the meals. It won't hurt, and can help to keep the gut soothed.

13) ANYTIME she showed signs of irritation or digestive upset, I'd back off
to the simplest, easiest most well tolerated protein. If there was signs of
more than just a little discomfort - pain, explosive runny stools,
vomiting, frank blood - I'd rest her digestive system for a day or two, feed
broth and SEBP, and restart slowly and gradually.

BASIC STUFF
Dogs need to eat a raw, species appropriate, whole prey model diet - but
there is plenty of room to tweak it, as in the case of health problems such
as IBD/IBS.

Dogs also need protein and organ variety, and variety of body parts. If you
can't feed whole prey, then FrankenPrey it must be!

Dogs need a 'balance' of about 80% meat - muscle, skin, fat, connective
tissue or organs such as heart, gizzards and tongue
10% organs - 3-5% liver and 5-7% 'other', like spleen, kidney, sweetbreads,
etc.
10% EDIBLE bone - relatively soft, completely consumable cartilage and bone
If a bone can't be readily eaten by a dog, then the part that isn't eaten
can't count in the diet - and what isn't eaten should be binned when the
'goodness' is stripped off.

BUT, individual dogs will require more or less the %s quoted, especially
dogs with broken immune systems and health problems. Adjusting each % is a
"Know Thy Dog" thing, and is only learned through experience, and changes as
the dog ages.

Most adult dogs need about 2-3% of their estimated ideal adult body weight
to maintain. This is a general guideline; pups, small/tiny dogs, dogs who
are active or are performance dogs, spend a lot of time outdoors in cold
weather, are pregnant or lactating, etc. may need more, maybe as much as
4-6% or even more. In some cases, large/giant breeds, 'couch spuds',
overweight, elderly, mobility or health challenged dogs may need less than
2% to maintain or lose weight. Again, its a "Know Thy Dog" guesstimate that
changes over time.

I've gotten my SEBP here;
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
but health food stores often carry it in caps and bulk.

Salmon oil can provide needed O3s, but adding oil/fat can be problematic in
an IBD/IBS dog. I'd hold off on this for a few months, and opt to dose in
tiny doses with lean/trimmed proteins and gradually build up to a
therapeutic or maintenance dose, or what she can tolerate.

The best way to keep an IBD/IBS dog on an even keel is to be very cautious,
and feed small, feed often, feed lean, introduce variety slowly and offer
digestive rest, broth and SEBP proactively, whenever a flare seems imminent.

You can print this out if it will help.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jesey

On Jan 4, 2008 1:19 PM, riceaide <riceaide@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> She no longer gets the vitamins or carrots. When I am cooking the
> chicken (such as now, when she's had several bad days in a row), I
> give potatoes and bone meal powder, too. Both seem to help firm her
> stools, and calm the gastric upset.
> **** Yes, potatoes, bone meal, even cooked meats can seem to solve the
> problem - but they work by eliminating fat and skin from the equation and
> will add bulk to artificially firm the stool - a fix, but ultimately not a
> really helpful one. Giselle ****
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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10a. Re: Allergy
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:38 pm ((PST))

>The "novel" meat protein comes into play if the dog responds badly to
all the meat proteins it is normally fed.

Oh ok. Thanks,Chris.I was thinking that elimination diet hasto be on something dog never had before...but I can choose one protin to start with like Bill waswriting in his post then.

Thanks,again

yassy

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Messages in this topic (15)
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