[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12460

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: millser25
1b. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: millser25
1c. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: costrowski75
1d. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: Yasuko herron
1e. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: Tina Berry
1f. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1g. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1h. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
From: aliciamyan

2a. Re: Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
From: SoldierGrrrl

3a. Re: Help! Only tolerates chicken qtrs.
From: riceaide

4. Re: fish oil, etc.
From: Darjeelingirl

5a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: mozookpr
5b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: katkellm

6.1. Re: worried
From: Morledzep@aol.com
6.2. Re: worried
From: lauriewolfert
6.3. Re: worried
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: Supplpements, Vit E, etc
From: T Smith

8a. Re: bones included?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

9a. Re: Leaving RMB's out overnight - indoors?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

10a. Re: Pork ear
From: Morledzep@aol.com

11a. Hello of Denmark
From: Tonny Surrow-Hansen
11b. Re: Hello of Denmark
From: Casey Post

12a. Cost Of Raw Feeding
From: tammyco5@aol.com
12b. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
From: Amy Tracy
12c. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
From: Jamie Dolan

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:38 pm ((PST))

> My order of meats that IMO are the best is red meat, wild if you can
get it,
> which is why I feed 100% venison. If you can't get red meat, then
turkey,
> pork, chicken are next.
>

Thanks Tina,
Where are you able to get so much venison? Sounds like you've
got lots of dogs, so that's a lot of venison! I'd love to get my
hands on some, but I just haven't been able to locate a reasonable
source.
Erica

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:39 pm ((PST))

Thanks Chris,
I appreciate your input. We just had full blood work done,
actually, with ideal results. He had to go under to have a hernia
corrected ... now that I think about it, this all started within a few
weeks of that surgery. Hmmm. We'll be going in for another follow
up, ASAP.
Anyway, I feel a little more comfortable about the diet. I have
to admit that I have been keeping the fat low, which I am beginning to
see is a mistake. A very close family friend lost their dog (who may
as well have been my dog too) about a year ago from pancreatits
brought on by gorging on cooking fat stolen from the garbage can. I'm
quitting the Dream Coat immediately. Next week my coop is purchasing
salmon oil, so I'll be getting in on that, I think. How much fat
should I be feeding him? What cuts do you suggest? (By the way, I've
always heard to stay away from pork belly because it is so fatty).
Chris, you also suggested feeding more frequently. How often
were you thinking? It seems everyone has a different opinion on
frequency. I've had people tell me to feed once, twice, and three
times daily. What is your opinion?
Thank you!!

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 2:16 pm ((PST))

"millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
> We just had full blood work done,
> actually, with ideal results. He had to go under to have a hernia
> corrected ... now that I think about it, this all started within a
few
> weeks of that surgery. Hmmm. We'll be going in for another follow
> up, ASAP.
*****
I also would inquire into any relationship between surgery his
diminished state. Was he on antibiotics? Also did the initial
bloodwork include a FULL thyroid panel? As in, one that was sent to
a lab, as in not done in-house?

I have
> to admit that I have been keeping the fat low, which I am beginning
to
> see is a mistake. A very close family friend lost their dog (who
may
> as well have been my dog too) about a year ago from pancreatits
> brought on by gorging on cooking fat stolen from the garbage can.
*****
Yeah, well, stop worrying inappropriately. Cooked fat in huge
amounts is not the same as dietary fat attached to body parts you're
feeding regularly but moderately. I understand your concern, but you
gotta understand that protein and fat are the two and only two blocks
in a dog's nutritional pyramid. You can't not feed fat.

I'm
> quitting the Dream Coat immediately.
*****
Oh this stuff is a dog's nightmare, honestly. Whoever wrote that
using it is like feeding grains was totally on target! Stick to
animal-based nutrition, fed properly.

How much fat
> should I be feeding him? What cuts do you suggest? (By the way,
I've
> always heard to stay away from pork belly because it is so fatty)
*****
The easy to way feed fat is to simply not trim the meats you feed.
When you feed chicken, don't trim the skin or the fat. When you feed
pork (and yes, you should include pork), don't trim--OR--trim
moderately as you continue to introduce more fat into his menu. It's
not so much dumping a sudden amount of fat into his life; it's more
that you just feed additional food, some of which will be fatter than
other food.

I would not run out and buy a bunch of pork belly futures, but
certainly feeding it conservatively as you gently and gradually put
weight on the kid will be fine.

Chris, you also suggested feeding more frequently. How often
> were you thinking? It seems everyone has a different opinion on
> frequency.
*****
Well, here's the deal. Feeding Big Food Less Often addresses one
issue, feeding Small Amounts More Frequently addresses another
issue. You have two food issues going on simultaneously, which can
be a poser for sure.

For healthy weight gain, more food and more fat are generally the
program. But if you start feeding lots more food, lots more fat,
and/or lots more new food right out of the blocks, what you're likely
to produce is digestive upset; a sudden, abrupt influx of fat may
cause pancreatitis in a dog unaccustomed to eating fat. So what you
do is, yes, increase the amount of food and the amount of fat, but
no, you don't feed it all at once.

I myself would not hesitate to feed two meals instead of one, three
meals instead of two, and even four meals instead of three it that's
what it takes to put weight on a dog. Usually circumstances are not
so dire as to require four squares a day...but the tool is there to
use if it's needed.

You also have the Picky Eater problem. Get rid of the kibble, I mean
get it outta the house. Stop snacks, or make the snacks part of his
meal plan. Usually letting a dog hungry himself into eating is a
safe way to feed, in which case feeding one big meal a day is fine.
But if you're trying to feed more, you can hardly skip meals.
Feeding smaller meals may be useful here as well, since picking at a
meal that's one-third "normal" size may result in a cleaned plate.

I am a big supporter of Big Food Fed Less Often but I'm also a big
fan of "Doing What It Takes". That's my opinion and I'm sticking to
it.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:25 pm ((PST))

>How much fat should I be feeding him?

Hi.I am not Chris,but I can post. If your dog has no upset tummy problems or poo problems,you can feed fat as is. No skin off from poultry unless your dog had diarrhea.

Dog needs fat and protin for energy so,low fat is not good. My dog is trying to loose weight and I feed less fat% than before but not low fat,rather moderate fat;40% with less cal with more excersize.

I still do feed fattier meat like tongue /ribs but when I do,I just give with less fattier meat like lamb tongue with boneless lamb.Lamb is fattier meat but tongue is really fatty;70% fat in it but by combining this way,thefat% goes down a little.

My dog once had diarrhea episode on Duck with all skin in meal so, I did combo meal with chicken and now she can have Duck with skin but skin has to be about 2 of 25cents coin size.More than that of skin left on meat,she either get runny poo or diarrhea. Except this Duck,I feed all poultry with skin on.

I think that if you want to put on weight on dog, you can feed more red meat,fattier kinds of protins like lamb,mutton may be good.I am thinking you like to do oposit to what I do so,why not feed fattier meat and give more ? If dog had no problem in health,then,that would help.Ribs are 60% fat in general so,that is fattier category and tongues are fattier too.

And, if you stop dream coat thing,I think situation can improve due all plant base oil is cut out from menu.

yassy

---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:26 pm ((PST))

"Where are you able to get so much venison? Sounds like you've got lots of
dogs, so that's a lot of venison! I'd love to get my hands on some, but I
just haven't been able to locate a reasonable source. "

Yep - gotta love Montana and all the deer hunters. There are lots of
butchers around, but only ONE would give me free scraps by the large garbage
can full. So we fill up 3 freezers (one huge chest and 2 uprights) with
venison every fall. Last year we ran out around May but not all 3 freezers
were full. And I posted a sign at my work for carcasses, scraps from
co-workers and had few take me up on it. What's nice about non-professional
butchers is they leave half the meat on the carcass ;-) The butchers do a
good job of leaving just bone but I get lots of scraps.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________

1f. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:37 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 1/4/2008 11:23:53 AM Pacific Standard Time,
millser25@yahoo.com writes:

I really need to help him put on at least 5 pounds but preferably 7-10
pounds. I can see that he's not healthy right now, but I just don't
know how to help him.

Erica,

it sounds to me like you need to take a trip to the vet..

but as far as his diet goes sounds like you're feeding a LOT of bone and not
a lot of meat and fat which should be the bulk of the diet.

you want MEAT to be the main thing, and FAT. Fat is what dogs convert into
energy, like we do with carbs. i can't even think of why you would purposely
stay away from pork belly fat unless it's already smoked or cured into bacon.

i think you'll find if you increase the amount of meat and fat and decrease
the amount of bone, but still feed the same amount of food your dog will gain
some weight or at least stop losing.

I have an old golden dude that will quit eating if i feed him too much bone.
i can give him bone once a week, if he gets a meal with bone 2 days in a row
he'll take his food outside and hide it so the young female wolfdog will get
it. you might find that if you feed more meat that you'll also be able to feed
larger meals because your dog will be more interested in eating.

As far as getting organs in i never worry about it much. i hand organ meats
to the dogs and if they don't eat it that's the end of their meal. there
won't be any food offered again until the following day.. if a meal is even served
the following day. They get the idea pretty quickly that they had better eat
while the eating is good.

Catherine R.

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________

1g. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:12 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 1/4/2008 12:27:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
millser25@yahoo.com writes:

The oil supplement I've been giving his is "Dream Coat". The
ingredients are: Soybean Oil, Wheatgerm Oil, Safflower Oil, Sunflower
Oil, Garlic Oil, Cod Liver Oil, Anise.

Erica,

get away from the plant based oils and get some salmon oil or fish body oil
that has no soy in it..

along with more meat and fat and less bone like i said before.

Catherine R.

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________

1h. Re: Losing weight! Need advice!
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:00 pm ((PST))

> I really need to help him put on at least 5 pounds but preferably 7-
10
> pounds. I can see that he's not healthy right now, but I just don't
> know how to help him. I'm desperate for advice.
> Thank you!
> Erica

Erica,

I would surely follow the advice of the other more experienced raw
feeders first, but I thought I'd share the menu that seems to be
helping my boy. My GSD looked terrible before we switched to raw
over 3 months ago - the sad joke with my family was he looked like a
prehistoric creature. His skin/coat condition improved the first
month feeding primarily chicken and elk. But he didn't start putting
on weight until this last month and a half when I found a source for
beef hearts and tongues - both have a good amount of fat. I think he
should be about 100lbs and feed between 3-4% (3-4lbs in a single
feeding). I hope once I get his weight where it should be, I can cut
back to a maintenace of 2% or so. I alternate between whole fryer
chickens and the hearts/tongues. He looks 100% better and is gaining
steadily, but still has a few too many ribs showing and needs a bit
more on his hip bones before I try cutting back. He prefers the beef
days - he gets pretty excited when he catches a whiff of what's
coming his way. I feed liver on Mondays, but I can't offer any help
there - both my dogs eat it willingly. Hope this helps.

Alicia
Moose 3yo GSD, Flicka 12yo Lab

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Raw newbie, and a quick introduction!
Posted by: "SoldierGrrrl" soldier.grrrl@gmail.com looking4godgirl
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:25 pm ((PST))

On Jan 4, 2008 3:21 PM, ekendahl <robert@ekendahl.org> wrote:
> > From: "SoldierGrrrl" <soldier.grrrl@...>
> >
> > Moxie should be at a healthy weight of about 15 lbs. If I feed her
> > 2-3% of her body weight, that works about to about seven ounces a
> > day. I'd probably round up to eight ounces
>
> Not sure how you did you math. If I put "15 lbs * 3% to oz" into
> google (yes, they have a smart calculator as well) I get 7.2 oz and
> "15 lbs * 2% to oz" I get 4.8 oz.
>
> So to me, 8 oz seems like a lot for her. Unless she's very active my
> guess would be that 5 oz/day is more appropriate.

She's a terrier. To say that she's hyper would be an understatement.
:-) Also, we do try and walk/jog/stagger 2-4 miles a day. We're
working up to a 5k.

Sorry if my math's off. I guess it's also that I can't imagine giving
the muttlet a half-cup (or just a shade over) of food every day. I
realize she's not a human, but that's not much food to look at.

Jen
--
Blonde. It's not just a hair color; it's a way of life.

http://soldiergrrrl.livejournal.com/

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Help! Only tolerates chicken qtrs.
Posted by: "riceaide" riceaide@yahoo.com riceaide
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:26 pm ((PST))

Thank you for the response. Yes, she does have IBD or IBS. I can't
remember which one, though I've looked them up after the diagnosis,
and figured it was the one that happens in the lower intestine. (mouc
more prone to diarrhea than vomiting).I am not very keen on the idea
of slippery elm, as another raw feeder with a dog who had similar
problems had negative results with the slippery elm. My dog (Hera)
gets sick from many, many things. She does not tolerate dog canine
NSAIDs, brown rice, wheat, Glucosamine/Choindroitin, etc. She has been
unable to eat chicken skin without getting diarrhea and lots of mucus.
Cooked or raw. Turkey has also given her diarrhea. Even in relatively
small amounts. The salmon oil, which I introduced sorta gradually, has
actually been fine. (Thankfully, as it adds some fat to her diet).
While it may be true that cooked chicken and potatoes are not a real
fix, she does appear to feel much better after eating them following a
bout of gastritis. There's a noticeable difference in her
demeanor/activity level. The enzymes have seemed to help, as well.
The bone-in chicken qtrs. were causing her serious discomfort and
blood before I added the enzymes. Within days of the addition, the
blood stopped and her discomfort seemed to abate as well. The enzymes
are ONLY given with meals. They are supposed to be sprinkled on the
food itself, which I do. Hey, if it's working, I'm for it.
I am going to continue with the potatoes for a few days, along with
her chicken, until she seems fully recovered. RIght now she'd okay
with raw chicken, but no bones. The problem is removing bones from raw
chicken (difficult). I'm not in the financial position to afford
boneless chicken in the amount she needs to eat, so it's cooked for
the moment.
>
> > Hi,
> > She no longer gets the vitamins or carrots. When I am cooking the
> > chicken (such as now, when she's had several bad days in a row), I
> > give potatoes and bone meal powder, too. Both seem to help firm her
> > stools, and calm the gastric upset.
> > **** Yes, potatoes, bone meal, even cooked meats can seem to solve the
> > problem - but they work by eliminating fat and skin from the
equation and
> > will add bulk to artificially firm the stool - a fix, but
ultimately not a
> > really helpful one. Giselle ****
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4. Re: fish oil, etc.
Posted by: "Darjeelingirl" darjeelingirl@comcast.net zoookeeeper
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:28 pm ((PST))

ok, this is what I want to know cause I keep reading about people adding
fish oil:

>>>You can give fish
>>>oil of you don't feed fish but nothing else is necessary and I'm not
>>>sure the fish oil is necessary.

>>>Bill Carnes

Is fish oil necessary or not? Why? Can you show me sources?

thanks!

Patsy and the Rawbies

Sherlock Bones August 2007 beagle

Cuthbert June 1998 yellow tabby

Snickers August 2003 tortoiseshell long hair

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:29 pm ((PST))

> I'm sorry but I would have to disagree.
> If I were to eat say a whole chicken for dinner every night for a
> year and then one night decide I'm just going to have a chicken leg
> instead. I can bet that I am going to be looking for more food
> because I won't feel satisfied or as full as I usually do....
>....That's like saying an overweight person can go from what they
> normally eat to a salad a day and not feel hungry.

But you haven't cut back to a chicken leg from a whole chicken,
right? You have cut back from cups of junk food to a smaller but
healthier meal. Would you feel bad about cutting off an obese
child's access to unlimited ice cream, potato chips, and candy, and
offering appropriate amounts of nutritious food instead? Would you
give in if the child complained? (Given the epidemic of overweight
children in this country, perhaps that is a question best unasked...)

I suspect that animals overeat for the same reasons people do:
boredom, bad habits, or simply because FOOD TASTES GOOD!

If you are feeding healthy, appropriate food (please enjoy your salad
bar with other omnivores) and your dog is maintaining the correct
weight, let your mind be at ease. He might want more, but left to
his own devices, he might also want to run out and play in the
street, drink antifreeze, wolf down your leftover Valentine's
chocolate, or do any number of other dangerous things.

As far as the consumption of socks and other non-food items, consider
that behavior motivation to put such items out of reach. The
presence of animals in my home is a terrific incentive to put
possessions I would like unmolested away. (Heaven knows, I needed
SOMETHING to get me organized...<g>).

Good luck with your pup, and congratulations on choosing raw. It's
not always easy (I have one picky dog, to balance your little
piglet), but from what I have seen, it IS worth it.

Cheers,

Wendy, mom to Foxy, Sophie, and a pack of transitioning cats

Messages in this topic (21)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:18 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:

> I suspect that animals overeat for the same reasons people do:
> boredom, bad habits, or simply because FOOD TASTES GOOD!

I think that defining overeating is probably where the problem starts.
You use the 2-3% of the dog's ideal body weight and feed accordingly.
If you are feeding twice a day, i understand that according to the
numbers you are feeding the right amount of food. The problem is that
dog full and people full are not the same thing. Dogs don't get full
by numbers. A dog that eats 3lbs at one meal when he is allotted a
pound a day may be overeating his daily allotment of food in terms of
the numbers, but he is not overeating in terms of how a dog was meant
to eat by nature of the design of their stomachs. A wolf will eat to
satiety. They have to because food might not be there tomorrow. That
is how they were meant to eat. Big meals till their stomach distends.
That is dog full. Its not what we have been taught to do, but we
have been taught its bad to feed this way by the same people that
profess kibble is good. Feeding small meals results in a dog that is
always hungry because he has not filled his stomach. The same dog
that eats a pound day and is always hungry can eat 2-3lbs every other
or every third day giving you a dog that isn't hungry because
he actually is full on meal day. A dog's system seems to regulate
itself better on big meals feed less often, or gorge and rest, or
whatever. My lab who was food obsessed and overweight and ate dog
poop and couldn't eat a pound of food a day without plumping, can, on
big meals, eat 7lbs a week, fed a couple of times a week and not be
fat. My jindo dog who was skin and bones and hated food and would eat
only enough to survive before raw won't eat 2lbs a day, but he will
eat 16lbs in a week if fed big meals a couple of days a week. Big
meals are definitely not a requirement of raw feeding, but it is
one variation that has really benefited my dogs. I really believe that
it would help any dog, but it is especially beneficial for a dog who
seems to be food obsessed and needs to be given chew things or offered
veggies to try and do what a big meal will do naturally, feed to
satiety. JMO, KathyM

Messages in this topic (21)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6.1. Re: worried
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:29 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 1/3/2008 8:44:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
scarebetty@yahoo.com writes:

I know that anything can happen, but I was just
wondering if anyone that has been feeding raw for a long time has ever
had any of their dogs just die from the scary things that we are all
told about from naysayers, such as a perforated stomach, etc?

Betty,

i once had a 15 year old collie/shepherd mutt die from a broken neck because
she slipped and fell while she was chasing the younger girls in the yard about
1 year after we started raw feeding.

Catherine R.

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (33)
________________________________________________________________________

6.2. Re: worried
Posted by: "lauriewolfert" lauriewolfert@yahoo.com lauriewolfert
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:15 pm ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

Betty,
I understand your concern and have the same question, as my husband
and I are only about a week and a half into raw feeding. We have two
small dogs (15lbs) and gave them large chicken legs tonight for the
first time and they left behind several 1/2 - 1 inch shards of bone
that they didn't eat. My husband ready to give it all up because he
is concerned that the bones they DID eat will harm them. Can someone
else give us some peace of mind? The dog falling and dying doesn't
really address our question>
>
> In a message dated 1/3/2008 8:44:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> scarebetty@... writes:
>
> I know that anything can happen, but I was just
> wondering if anyone that has been feeding raw for a long time has
ever
> had any of their dogs just die from the scary things that we are all
> told about from naysayers, such as a perforated stomach, etc?

Messages in this topic (33)
________________________________________________________________________

6.3. Re: worried
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:46 pm ((PST))

Wolves/dogs have been eating raw bones since time began! If there was a
problem, they would be extinct by now. :)

Seriously, there are well over 10,000 members just on this one list, feeding
countless numbers of dogs raw and not one report of dogs dying from
perforated intestines, etc.

Read through rawfed.com and the myth section. A carnivore's digestive
juices are very capable of not only killing harmful bacteria, but also
dissolving bones with no problem at all.

http://rawfed.com/
http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "lauriewolfert" <lauriewolfert@yahoo.com>
I understand your concern and have the same question, as my husband
and I are only about a week and a half into raw feeding. We have two
small dogs (15lbs) and gave them large chicken legs tonight for the
first time and they left behind several 1/2 - 1 inch shards of bone
that they didn't eat. My husband ready to give it all up because he
is concerned that the bones they DID eat will harm them. Can someone
else give us some peace of mind?

Messages in this topic (33)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Supplpements, Vit E, etc
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:30 pm ((PST))

Actually, the page was sent to me because I was being told I was not feeding
my dogs appropriately by not supplementing them. I defended myself but
that's why I asked, I "thought" I had it right.
When I send people to this list to get the correct info & ask questions, I
wonder why they never do it??

How many times a week for fish oil capsules?
Thanks Again!
Trina

On Jan 4, 2008 1:18 PM, carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Trina! Stop that! You go out and read websites and have a tendency
> to believe anything you read. Just stop reading sites that you
> don't see recommended here. Vitamin E is totally unnecessary. All
> the dog needs is in the raw meat, bones, and organs he eats. You
> were right originally. No supplements needed. You can give fish
> oil of you don't feed fish but nothing else is necessary and I'm not
> sure the fish oil is necessary.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: bones included?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:30 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 1/3/2008 10:29:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
zooper1@juno.com writes:

My question is this - when weighing the amount of food they get for a
meal, is the bone weight included or is that just the meat? I have just
started feeding raw with bone so I don't want to starve my dogs! I am
weighing it now until I get better at gauging how much each of them
eats per meal.

Teri,

Edible bone is a very small part of the overall diet. so, yes, the bone is
part of the meal and should be weighed as such.

BUT, it seriously sounds like you're feeding too much bone and cutting up
hunks o prey that don't need to be cut up.

remember, that part of the benefits of this diet is the teeth cleaning and
work out the dogs get from having to rip and tear and work at eating. Feed BIG
food.. even to little dogs.

Catherine R.

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Leaving RMB's out overnight - indoors?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:30 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 1/2/2008 10:07:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
suzmacleod@rogers.com writes:

So I was wondering to those long term raw feeders, do you leave a rmb out
overnight on their feeding blankie, or do you guys pick it up and put it in
the fridge, when it
comes time to go to beddies?

Suz,

the big stuff that doesn't get finished gets picked up and put on the tray on
top of my chest freezers in the garage. Even here in California it's cold
enough to not worry about meal getting too stinky in the garage.

But then again, having BIG dogs, i rarely have anything that needs to be
picked up.. lol.

Catherine R.

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Pork ear
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:13 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 1/3/2008 8:44:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com writes:

Hi,since my dog haslimping history,I try to give some cartilidge item here
and there but pork ear is good for joint as well if it is made with cartilidge?

Yassy,

there is a little cartilage in pigs ears.. but certainly not enough to make a
difference. and the last thing you want is smoked or dried pigs ears that
they sell at pet supply stores.

i thought, once upon a time, that since the dried pigs ears were bad that i
would buy raw pigs ears from the grocery store. i bought 8 packs of them (4
ears in each) and handed them out to the dogs and then spent the next hour or so
retrieving them all to throw away, the dogs just weren't interested.

i still see the raw ears in the stores, but i quit wasting my time, no one
wants them and they have very little nutritional value. When i have puppies i
find an asian grocery store and get a pig face mask for the pup to chew, but
that is purely for chewing and keeping the pup busy, not a meal, and not for
nutritional value.

Catherine R.

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Hello of Denmark
Posted by: "Tonny Surrow-Hansen" datura@brugmansia.dk tonny_surrow_hansen
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:17 pm ((PST))

Hi everybody,
I just found your forum today.

A little about me:

I am Tonny Surrow-Hansen. I live in Denmark, and have two dogs and
three cats. I have feed them with rawfood for ½ of a year. Especially
the old dog on 11 yrs was pretty messed up from eating the wrong food.
After a week eating raw stuff his bad smell disappeared. He used to
have a bath once a week to remove the smell, but that is not nessesary
anymore. He smell just fine now.

There was a lot more good things happening from changing their diets,
but more about that later.

Greetings of Denmark

Tonny

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: Hello of Denmark
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 6:07 pm ((PST))

>There was a lot more good things happening from changing their diets,
but more about that later.

Welcome, Tonny! Wonderful to hear about how well your crew is doing on raw!

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Cost Of Raw Feeding
Posted by: "tammyco5@aol.com" tammyco5@aol.com tamm1232000
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 6:18 pm ((PST))

Hello everyone!
I joined this group a few days ago and I have learned so much from all of
you and have so much more to learn. I am almost sold on this diet as it just
makes so much sense. The part that worries me also are the bones and the trouble
they may cause. Anyways, this is my Pug's 3rd day on this diet. He eats
chicken leg quarters for now.

How much do you all spend a month average? I am in a financial mess right
now so I need to watch every penny. Any suggestions on how to do this frugally?
I'm a vegetarian so asking hunters for heads of deer or meat I need to
butcher just won't work. I did ask for old meat from their freezer on freecycle
that they were going to throw away. Someone is going to give me some and wants
to know what my dog likes. Should I just say everything or is there
something I should avoid?

Thank you in advance!
Tammy

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Amy Tracy" amypatriciatracy@gmail.com rosiesmomlovesrosie
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:00 pm ((PST))

Welcome Tammy,
You'll find a fair number of vegetarians and vegans on this list. I am
one as well. On this front, know that you'll grow in your comfort with
meat in stages. At first I couldn't bear to touch or cut it, and now,
almost two months later I'm flipping raw meat right and left. Take
yesterday, for instance: I watched Rosie knaw on a big meaty
three-pound pig leg ... and I also bought a chicken from an Asian
store that kills them for you in back while you wait. All growing
experiences! You'll be negotiating with hunters in no time!! We
probably spend $50 a month on meat. Happy eating!!
Amy (and Rosie)

On 1/4/08, tammyco5@aol.com <tammyco5@aol.com> wrote:
> Hello everyone!
> I joined this group a few days ago and I have learned so much from all of
> you and have so much more to learn. I am almost sold on this diet as it just
>
> makes so much sense. The part that worries me also are the bones and the
> trouble
> they may cause. Anyways, this is my Pug's 3rd day on this diet. He eats
> chicken leg quarters for now.
>
> How much do you all spend a month average? I am in a financial mess right
> now so I need to watch every penny. Any suggestions on how to do this
> frugally?
> I'm a vegetarian so asking hunters for heads of deer or meat I need to
> butcher just won't work. I did ask for old meat from their freezer on
> freecycle
> that they were going to throw away. Someone is going to give me some and
> wants
> to know what my dog likes. Should I just say everything or is there
> something I should avoid?
>
> Thank you in advance!
> Tammy
>
>
>
> **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
> http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

12c. Re: Cost Of Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:01 pm ((PST))

> How much do you all spend a month average? I am in a financial mess right
> now so I need to watch every penny. Any suggestions on how to do this
> frugally?

Watch for sales. I paid .69 per pound for unenhanced whole cut up
chickens today. With a larger dog you don't want the cut up chickens,
but my dogs are small (6 to 20 pounds) so a cut up chickens is
perfect. I little boys ate around 9% of there body weight today in
chicken and pork roast. They are soo full....

> I'm a vegetarian so asking hunters for heads of deer or meat I need to
> butcher just won't work. I did ask for old meat from their freezer on

You don't know any hunters or you don't think you can manage to cut up
the meat? If your speaking of cutting up the meat, It's not that bad.
I almost became a vegetarian,,,, then I joined this list and similar
human lists... Anyway, even if you are a vegetarian, you can handle
the meat. Many people do (handel the meat that are vegetarians). I
got myself to go into a slaughter house and dig through organs to get
Tripe for the dogs. It was a little gross at first, but then you get
used to it, and it isn't that bad. I just think of it this way, cows,
pigs, chickens, lamb, etc, they are all prey, there pourpose is to
become food for other creatures dogs / people. I hope this doesn't
offend you. I just wanted to offer my point of view.

> to know what my dog likes. Should I just say everything or is there
> something I should avoid?

Take it all. Offer it to your dog. If you can not get him to eat
something you can always toss it later.

Good Luck. Again, I applogize if I offended you at all, no offense is
intended by my statements.

>
Jamie

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------