[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12149

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Dog/Household Cleanliness
From: Stephanie Sorensen
1b. Re: Dog/Household Cleanliness
From: miensasis

2a. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
From: Jaala
2c. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
From: Kaitlin Fraser

3a. Is this normal??
From: Yasuko herron
3b. Re: Is this normal??
From: Sonja
3c. Re: Is this normal??
From: Yasuko herron
3d. Re: Is this normal??
From: Casey Post

4a. Re: Gathering Info.
From: T Smith
4b. Re: Gathering Info.
From: marclre
4c. Re: Gathering Info.
From: carnesbill
4d. Re: Gathering Info.
From: T Smith

5a. Re: no poop
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: duke needs to brush his teeth.
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Great Prices on chicken
From: Renate

8. BALANCED EATING
From: miensasis

9. QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
From: miensasis

10a. Re: CAN YOU GUYS GIVE ME A FEW EXAMPLES? :-) PLS
From: Melissa
10b. Re: CAN YOU GUYS GIVE ME A FEW EXAMPLES? :-) PLS
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Not Eating Much.....?
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: Questions about Fish
From: costrowski75

13a. Re: switching kitten to raw
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

14a. Re: BONES TO CLEAN TEETH
From: Giselle

15. I am so confused...Please help
From: trayc2244

Messages
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1a. Re: Dog/Household Cleanliness
Posted by: "Stephanie Sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Hi,

1. Some people have stated that they lay down old blankets or large towels in the kitchen or laundry area and make them stay there to eat. As long as you make sure they know they can't leave that space, that works too. You can just wash the blanket/towels when they're done.

I keep a wet dog towel nearby to wipe mouth and feet if necessary. Mine don't like to use their paws (they're both prima donnas), but one of mine buries her food when she is finished, so I need the towel to get the dirt off, if for nothing else.

2. I usually feed mine out on the back deck. I will probably do that no matter the weather, because it keeps the mess out of my house.

3. My girls usually require about 10 minutes to eat an entire chicken fryer (I have a 55-lb pit bull and a 65-lb lab). They don't gobble or gulp either. They methodically chew it all up and get it all down in that amount of time. Pork shoulders and a rack of beef ribs take significantly longer because the meat, skin and bones are tougher and take more work on their part. About half an hour is as long as it has taken them so far. The beef ribs take the longest, so just don't feed anything like that until you can relax and stick around long enough to supervise.

I hope that helps you in your research. Good luck!

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy and Minkey (the kitty)

redshorty1959 <kphhp@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
Questions:

1. Ideas/experience for keeping the dog clean after eating (is it on
their feet, chest and chin??)

2. Ideas/experience where/how to feed so as to give them time to eat,
and not have a mess later.

3. How long does it take them to eat??? (I'm thinking 9-5 work
schedule here, no time to wait half hr while the dog devours his food
in a crate - type thing)

I am doing my research ahead of time. I do not have dogs yet. Cats
yes...(I am giving them ground raw on a plate)

thank you,
kathleen

---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

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Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Dog/Household Cleanliness
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:21 pm ((PDT))

Kathleen...

I'm still really new to raw (not quite 3 weeks) and can really relate
to your concerns because I had them as well. I can tell you that
they really turned out not to be such a big deal. Here is what I
found:

1. On keeping the dog clean after eating: Wheatens have full coats
and I was worried about raw food particles getting caught up in their
beards, but I'm surprised at how clean they are after eating. Plus,
both dogs do a great job of grooming each other's faces after
breakfast which is really cute and cool to watch. Plus...as someone
on this list pointed out to me...dogs lick their butts all the time,
so what's worse?

2. On where to feed to reduce mess: I was particulary challenged
because I live in a townhouse and do not have a true yard at my
disposal. Thus far I have served their chicken parts in their usual
kibble dishes on the linoleum kitchen floor. For the first couple of
days I had to supervise so they wouldn't try to escape the kitchen
and then drag the chicken quarter onto the couch, but they learned
real quick to eat in their usual breakfast spot. They'll usually
grab onto the part, pull it out of the dish, and work on it on the
floor next to the dish. They don't drag it around or anthing. When
they are done the floor (which is white) even looks clean to the
naked eye, but I wash the linoleum where they ate with vinegar and
water to remove any potential bacteria and the dishes go straight
into the dishwasher. You can also use a crate and then clean it with
vinegar and water when done. I've done that a couple of times as
well.

3. On how long it take to eat? I was surprised at how quickly they
eat. My dogs always took forever to eat their k***ble, so eating raw
seems like a breeze. My dogs are really thorough chewers and take
their time with their chicken quarters, etc.. but all in all it still
takes them less than 10 minutes to complete their meal. Unlike with
k***ble, I always supervise them until they are done but I look at it
this way--the extra time I invest in their feeding translates into
less time spent in bio breaks and cleanup. They poop and pee so
infrequently now, it is amazing!

Hope this is helpful...and good luck!

Nancy

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:19 pm ((PDT))

"Jaala" <vaughanjaala@...> wrote:
Are you not worried about bloat (Gastric
> Dilatation-Volvulus)?
*****
With regard to feeding complicated, fully-engrossing, species
appropriate meals? Nope.

With regard to other potential issues in my dogs' lives, sure. I mean,
not enough to significantly limit their lifestyles but certainly enough
to discourage hyperactvity and to be aware of any propensity for bloat
in their pedigrees.

Bloat has been discussed quite thoroughly on Rawfeeding over the
years. You might want to access the archives and do some reading.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
Posted by: "Jaala" vaughanjaala@aol.com central_tx_angel04
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:19 pm ((PDT))

**No, i'm not worried about bloat because all the bloat studies that
have been done were conducted on dogs fed kibble and do not apply to
raw fed dogs. Its like talking about the adverse effects of drinking
a quart of vodka and then advising people to not drink a quart of oj
because you might get light headed and stagger around**

Ok that does make sence, I just never thought of it that way. Since i
have deep chested dogs it has been pounded into me about big meals and
such but that was feeding kibble. Hmm...I wonder how my dogs would
take to that. One of my dogs is crazy when it comes to feeding, starts
foaming at the mouth and turns into dog from hell. Even with bigger
pieces of meat (chicken halfs, stuff that size) she just kinda bites
bites then swallows.
~Jaala

Messages in this topic (8)
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2c. Re: Gorging---bloat concern?
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:44 pm ((PDT))

Bloat is generally a kibble based problem because kibble expands when in the
stomach and causes what they eat to get bigger... meat do not expand and are
easily disgested by a dog. The reason for small meals in for kibble more so
then anything else. Because a large meal of kibble expands a lot more then a
small meal causing more problems disgesting and more gasy of a dog( amazing
what you learn in class).

I've feb kibble in the past.... never had a bloat case but I have a lot more
problematic stomachs as far as being able to take them walking after a
meal.... My raw fed rest an hour or two... and no problem... kibble
feeders... if fed the large meal puke ever piece of it up. Because the
stomach gets upset because it's hard to digest.

Bloat isn't a raw fed problem... it's more so a kibble fed problem. Even
breeds who have major bloat problems... raw fed breeders havn't had the
cases that kibble feeders do even with percautions.

Chicken doesn't expand.... beef doesn't expand.... kibble does....

Kaitlin Fraser
Prince SJA therapy dog, CGN
Jester SJA therapy dog CGN
Wenlisa's Command Performance HIC, CKC majorPTd "Malo" A work of art in
progress.( Raw Fed, )
Sheep's Kin Unusually Unusaul Kiska- Another work of art in even more
progress.( Raw fed)

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with free Messenger emoticons. Check out
freemessengeremoticons.ca

Messages in this topic (8)
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3a. Is this normal??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:30 pm ((PDT))

Hi,just a seconds ago,palette vomitted up yelloowish liquid with pinky nail size of solid stuff.

I told her it is ok to re-ate it and she picked the solid stuff and crunch crunch crunch..

I think it was bone piece.Bone I gaveher up to thistime is lamb neck bone yesterday night 7pm, and now is 5:30pm..little shy of 24hours later after consumption. Is it possible the bone comes out taking so long time out from mouth?

Another thing I can think of is..after she had breakfast around 7:30am, she was gnawing Deer Antler and little agressively than usual,and heard bit of cracking sound.So,she may have ate the bone of Antler too.

If the fragment in the vomit was Antler,then,it is after about 8-9hours from comsumption.

she did not eat liquid stuff so,I cleaned it.Not much liquid,maybe 2-3tbs worth of liquid..umm,maybe less,not big puddle or anything like that.

She is acting normal,running around and still like to hung around me so,I don't think she is sick.

Is this normal taking so long to vomit up waht she could not digest well?

yassy

---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Is this normal??
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:20 pm ((PDT))

When my mom was watching our dog, she (the dog!) stole a corn cob out of the trash and my mom didn't get to her until half of it was consumed. She felt horrible about it but told us the whole story. Three days later, Kodie started horking something up in the middle of the night, and sure enough, it was a chunk of corn cob!

When she was a pup she used to eat her plastic dog house....the pieces would come up in 1, 2, or 3 days. So I would say a day's time is normal to hork something up that isn't digesting.

Then again, I could just have a weird dog....

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: Is this normal??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:37 pm ((PDT))

>she (the dog!) stole a corn cob out of the trash and my mom didn't get to her until half of it >was consumed.

Hi,Sonja.Thanks for sharing your story. I did not poke the puke stuff to see what the stuff coming out,so,not sure what it was..

I think that if dog took about 1-3 days to hoak up stuff in your case,then,it maybe normal to hoak up something from day before i guess,then.

>Three days later, Kodie started horking something up in the middle of the night, and
>sure enough, it was a chunk of corn cob!

thanks,

yassy

---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

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3d. Re: Is this normal??
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:51 pm ((PDT))

> Is this normal taking so long to vomit up waht she could not digest well?

Yassy,

Yes, a normal and healthy response to something that hasn't digested
properly in that time. If you go back through the archives searching on
"bile and bone bits vomit", you'll see that lots of dogs experience this -
especially early on and with bone heavy foods/treats.

Casey

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: Gathering Info.
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:46 pm ((PDT))

On 10/11/07, Lynette Friedrichs <lraefried@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> <snip> The chicken in the grocery stores seems to contain 12% broth
> solutions. How do you find chicken that isnt filled with this?
>

I figure the 'other' stuff *ki***e* has so much crap in it that the chicken
is better off no matter what!!

> <snip>When feeding raw, do any of you ever give your dogs your food while
> you are eating? Like bits of toast or french fries?
>

I give them many things I eat. They are our own pets & what I gather from
this list is that there are people who do things similar but in their own
ways. I will NOT gorge my dogs, not fast them unless medically necessary,
never feed a whole animal or head......but that doesn't mean that they nor
myself are wrong.
I even shared some yogurt with my Dane today. Not alot, but a bit.
I don't think you can go so wrong with a fry or two. but I am new to raw!
Trina
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

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Messages in this topic (5)
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4b. Re: Gathering Info.
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:46 pm ((PDT))

"The chicken in the grocery stores seems to contain 12% broth solutions. How do you find
chicken that isnt filled with this? Also, I spotted some little Cornish game hens that were
not filled with solution." "When feeding raw, do any of you ever give your dogs your food
while you are eating? Like bits of toast or french fries?"

***Hi Lynette

Check whether there are any rawfeeding coops in your general area as you can usually
really increase variety and lower cost that way. Start off with just the one protein (chicken's
a good candidate) and move on to include as much variety as possible.

You may be able to locate a range-fed chicken producer nearby which is the very best kind
of chicken you can feed.

If that's not possible then look for chickens that are whole (everything still attached inside)
and as unprocessed as possible Ie. without broth. I sometimes get pretty good deals on
chicken at my local Target Superstore but they're not range fed and unfortunately
generally gutted. Otherwise nothing added.

Cornish game hens are perfectly fine in addition to or instead of chicken but they can be
pricey.

I personally never share anything I'm actually in the process of munching on with my dog
or any other dogs in my care - however this is a behavioural issue rather than a health
concern. I definitely wouldn't make stuff like bread & potatoes a staple component of your
dog's diet but the odd yummy french fry or delicious bit of buttered toast certainly aint
gonna kill him ;) Bit like us ;);)

Marie-Claire***

Messages in this topic (5)
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4c. Re: Gathering Info.
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:08 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lynette Friedrichs
<lraefried@...> wrote:
>
> The chicken in the grocery stores seems to contain 12%
> broth solutions. How do you find chicken that isnt filled
> with this?

It's no big deal. I don't worry about it. Someitmes I feed
enhanced chicken and sometimes its not. Neither me or the dogs can
tell the difference. Its BROTH! Its not harmful in the least.
Many people feed their dogs broth without it being on the chicken.

> When feeding raw, do any of you ever give your dogs your
> food while you are eating? Like bits of toast or french fries?

It's not all that harmful but it's a LOT more harmful than feeding
enhanced chicken. I don't know why you would consider feeding
greasy french fries and bread and be concerned about enhanced
chicken at the same time. Eventhough it's not harmful, its a bad
habit to get into and best avoided. Feeding them the same things
AFTER the meal is much more preferable.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

>
> Thank you,
> Lynette
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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4d. Re: Gathering Info.
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:19 pm ((PDT))

On the packages I get it says:

"No preserves
No additives
Federal government prohibits the use of steroids or hormones in chickens"

How would I know about this broth additive you are all discussing?
I don't see it on there. either way, I've purchased 2 freezers full of
chicken....couple hundred pounds... won't last long when these guys eat over
10 pounds a day....
And with the sale going on at .46/lb for 10/lb bags, I will keep stocking
up :-) As long as they have it.
Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

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Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. Re: no poop
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:49 pm ((PDT))

"rawnewfie" <rawnewfie@...> wrote:
Last night she
> had a big meal sliced pork toungue, some chicken gizzard and a
little chicken livers. after
> dinner went for a walk, she tried to go and two little rabbit
turds. today no poop.
*****
Seems pretty obvious to me that the intake was easily and fully
digested.

this is now
> well over 30 hours without defecating.
*****
Some years ago I boarded one of my Labs (then kibblefed) for a week
and she didn't poop the entire time she was there because she was
expected to poop in her kennel and no way was she going to. She
defecated five count 'em five times the day I picked her up. Heck,
if a kibblefed dog can find it in herself not to poop for a week and
live to tell about it, I myself would not worry about 30 hours.
That's not even close to two days. Highly bio-available food is
highly digestible.

Tonight my new Newfoundland puppy arrived. I fed
> them both rice with a little bit 1/2 cup of milk over it, and some
chicken livers.
*****
Boy, if that's not a recipe for digestive upheaval I don't know what
is. You have an interesting take on species appropriate.

I know the
> group is against any grain at all. But I wanted to try and get
things moving for the retriever,
> and frankly I don't know what to give this 8 week old pup.
*****
Well, as I am sure others have already told you--what you feed an
eight week old pup is not rice and milk, and should include mere bits
(if any at all) of liver.

I don't think there's much in your retriever to get moving!
Certainly feeding a bony meal will help bulk things up, and if indeed
things that should be moving aren't, a largish dose of liver or fish
oil or even olive oil will lube the tubes. What perhaps you need to
do is contemplate the fundamental difference between kibble
ingredients and the "ingredients" in a species appropriate diet.

> I have heard from several sources that newfies are historically fed
on some sort of meal
> meaning porridge or something.
*****
And I have heard from several--reputable--sources that worms are
caused by spontaneous generation and October is earthquake season
here in California! It's simply amazing what some people will say,
and it's equally amazing what some people will believe.

Please don't respond with that dogs are 99% wolf DNA.
*****
Ah, that must be because you aren't completely up on your reading,
yes? No question that anyone who has been paying attention knows
that dogs are in fact wolves. Thousands of years of human
intervention is squat when it comes to effecting the sort of
physiological changes you have in mind. Your conclusions need some
attention I fear.

Have you been reading William Cusick?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (24)
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6a. Re: duke needs to brush his teeth.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:06 pm ((PDT))

>
> I haven't seen any responses that include the 'yarn bone'...maybe
since
> it isn't a raw item, but considering your post and some talk about
> towel shredding, I would think getting a yarn bone from your local
pet
> store would be a great way for you dog to floss.
*****
Except for the big galoot Lab my dogs pluck yarn bones apart. Yarn
is nothing. I have tried rope knots, they are plucked. I have even
tried rope monkey puzzle knots (which have no loose ends and by all
rights ought to be impervious). Not. Even the BC when she was a pup
would dismantle monkey puzzle knots, although at least it took her
several days. The big galoot Lab just carries his around like the
good retriever he is.

A big old slab of beef ribs works fine if the dog doesn't have access
to whole hairy prey. Anything with lots of sinew is Ma Nature's own
dental floss.
Chris O

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7a. Re: Great Prices on chicken
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:36 pm ((PDT))

Are you in Canada and do you mean SAANs?
Renate

On 10/11/07, T Smith <coldbeach@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am not sure if this is the right place to post this but we are getting
> chicken thigh/quarters meat on sale for a week now at .49 at 10 lbs
> bags....
> It's at a store called SAARs. I'm not sure if this is a chain or not since
> I am on an island. My husband has been picking up all but one pack at
> night
> to stock up..... he says he likes to leave one for other people :-) I'm
> greedy on good deals lol
> Trina
> --
> Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
> Casper (deaf Great Dane)
> Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
> Louie (hearing Great Dane)
> Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
> Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
> Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

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8. BALANCED EATING
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi....

I know that its the balance of meat/skin/connective tissue, organs,
and bone that forms the perfect nutritional balance for this way of
raw eating. I've been seeing posts that its balance over time that
really counts, but some have posted that they think the amount of
bone they feed can be actually be more like 25-30% over the long-
term. I was wondering---what is the most nutritionally important of
the 3 components? I know we try to achieve the 80-10-10 (w/5% liver)
ratio, but if you were to err on the side of a little more of one of
the dietary components, which is the healthiest one to do more of and
least nutritive one to do less of? Also, does anyone know what the
long-term effects would be of feeding a diet consistently with more
than the 10% of bone?

I'm really new to this and really just sticking as close as possible
to the suggested ratio with chicken meat on the the bone and the
occasional organ for the time being (I am for sure feeding bone
probably more in the 20-25% range to my newbie dogs since I do a lot
of leg quarters and split bone-in breasts or quartered whole
chickens), but these are questions I have as I read the posts and
think about feeding my dogs raw over the long term.

Thanks,

Nancy

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9. QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi All...

I was just wondering what effect raw eggs have on bowel habits? Are
they equivalent of organs in the sense that they can cause runny poo?
While my newbie wheatens are really just getting adjusted to chicken
and bone....when would eggs eventually be introduced into the mix?
After I get to the point of slowly introducing a variety of meat
sources? Or along with?

Thanks,

Nancy

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10a. Re: CAN YOU GUYS GIVE ME A FEW EXAMPLES? :-) PLS
Posted by: "Melissa" mwood8402@yahoo.com mwood8402
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:03 pm ((PDT))

I use chickens for my bone source. I typically feed through whole
chickens, but will get chicken parts if I find them on sale. I
usually get some kind of turkey meat. Turkey bones are partially
edible for my 20 pounder. So it serves as a source of a bit of bone
and some meaty meat. I almost always get pork shoulder and feed that
at a meaty meal. Then, I try to get something more "exotic" for
variety. Like duck, rabbit, emu, quail, fish. I toss in whatever
organs I can find and ta da! I usually feed one boney meal and one
meaty meal a day. I include organs with boney meals. I hope that helps.

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "angela182548" <angela182548@...>
wrote:
> I was hoping that I could get a few examples of your weekly (or a few
> days) feedings.

Messages in this topic (5)
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10b. Re: CAN YOU GUYS GIVE ME A FEW EXAMPLES? :-) PLS
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:47 pm ((PDT))

"angela182548" <angela182548@...> wrote:
>> I was hoping that I could get a few examples of your weekly (or a
few
> days) feedings
*****
Angela, when you ask for examples, it's a good idea to tell us what
size dog you are feeding, age, and any health issues you may have to
address. What I feed my 85lb Lab might not be relevant to what
someone feeds a 5lb toy poodle!

Yesterday I fed my "big" retrievers chuck roast and green tripe.
Tomorrow they will get whole chickens. Today they got nothing.
Yesterday my border collie also ate chuck roast and green tripe;
today she got a leg quarter; I don't know what I'll fed her
tomorrow. When she's older she'll start eating big every other day
if it works for her. For now, she gets fed once a day.

Recently I fed lamb breasts, turkey quarters, pork shoulder, lamb
trim, beef trim, venison, beef heart, salmon steaks (border collie
and cat only).

I am sitting here getting ready to toss the veggie
> mush and start over per your advice
*****
TOSS that veggie mush! Set yourself free, Lee! The last time I fed
veggies was, um, well, it was last week actually when I dumped on the
floor the somewhat soggy remains of a bag of salad mix. Seemed a
waste to just throw the stuff out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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11a. Re: Not Eating Much.....?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

Meredith Soriano <mom2mytwinz@...> wrote:>
> My dog Chloe is not eating very much....she is a chi-poo and 4-6
lbs.
*****
What does "not very much" mean to you? Your expectations may be
kibble based. A 6lb dogster in good health might suck down as much
as five ounces of food a day or perhaps as little as three ounces.
Do these small amounts represent what she's eating?

> Also I caught her eating a piece of chicken from days ago
outsde...is that ok?
*****
If it's still raw, it's still okay. If it's cooked or dried out,
well not so okay. But these found treasures may be diminishing her
appetite. Perhaps you might want to check the premises for other
stashes, and monitor her meals if you don't want her saving some for
later.

As far as eating outside goes, there's nothing wrong with it as long
as the area is safe for the dog.

> Any other food (RAW) suggestions that I can try on her?
*****
Oh my. There are thousands of messages in the archives dealing with
that question. Even if you were to narrow your search to "small
dogs" or "small breed" or "toy breeds" you could find more than
enough information to build a shopping list with.

For pictures (I believe there are small dogs available for your
viewing pleasure) of recipes and of dogs eating the recipes, check out
<http://rawfeddogs.net>
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: Questions about Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:22 pm ((PDT))

"susrob061174" <susrob061174@...> wrote:
>
> I believe the reasoning for freezing the fish is to kill any worms,
> bataria lurking on or in the fish.
*****
Bacteria don't all up and die. Some do, some just doze off till
things warm up again. Freezing is for parasite control.

The only fish I heard not the
> feed your dog is the Northern Pacfic Salmon.
*****
Actually, "northern Pacific Salmon" are probably okay, depending I
guess on how you define "northern Pacific". Southern Alaskan waters
may offer up infected salmon, but further north the salmon are okay.
OTOH, that area might be Arctic Ocean, not Pacific.

> Yes, The dog is getting it Omega's and a varity of meat.
*****
Not all fish provide meaningful levels of Omega 3. For those looking
to feed high O3 fish, there are many websites to refer to.

Just picture yourself as a wolf and what
> they would eat, wheather its hunting or a salvenger.
*****
Well, better perhaps to picture your dog as a wolf! But that would
be the right notion, absolutely!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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13a. Re: switching kitten to raw
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:47 pm ((PDT))

Yikes, and I thought $4 for a pound of rabbit was bad! At least I can get
about 2 meals for all 3 cats from that. I've been buying mine from somebody at a
local farmer's market, which is also where I get beef heart, one of my
staples--at $2 a pound. (All meat has taurine in it, but heart has the most, and
cats can't manufacture their own taurine.).

One of my local groceries has frog legs fairly often, in the fish section.
They are packaged 2 pairs for about $4 and that will be one meal for my 3
cats, so we don't do a lot of that. :)

Lynda

In a message dated 10/11/2007 9:53:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, "Kristen"
writes:

I was wondering where you get frog legs?

I'm trying to find a rabbit breeder in the Toronto area (meat - not pet
rabbits) but I'm having trouble and I just can't spend $18 on a little
thing at the grocer ;-)

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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14a. Re: BONES TO CLEAN TEETH
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:50 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Angela!
TYVM! ^_^

Chicken bones are pretty soft. That is why most of us experienced raw
feeders recommend that new-to-raw feeders start their dogs with chicken for
all but the tiniest of dogs and pups.

There has been a spate of "HELP, my dog choked on a bone!" topics on this
list recently. Virtually ALL of them have been posted by people new to raw.
Dogs choke - unless they are VERY new to raw, its rarely a problem. As dogs
gain experience, IF THEY ARE ALLOWED TO without interference (but with a
watchful eye) by their owners, and provided with species appropriate foods,
they soon relax about mealtime and learn how BIG a chunk is too big to
swallow. A lot of choking 'problems' are not problems at all, just a dog
experimenting with what works. Some choking problems are caused by too small
portions for the size of a dog - the solution? Bigger portions, not holding
it, nor cutting it smaller. When a dog swallows a too small portion, or a
part with a bone with a sharp edge, it can cause a cut or scrape in the
mouth or esophagus. This can cause irritation and/or swelling and discomfort
- so the dog won't eat, because it hurts. Providing plenty of fresh water,
low sodium broth and maybe some Slippery Elm Bark Powder to soothe and
reduce irritation for a day or two, and a few boneless meals (which he
should get plenty of, anyway) is usually all that is needed for the dog to
get back to regular meals. I think if a bone were lodged in a dog's throat,
that it would cause such swelling that the airway would close up. It happens
with kibble, it happens with too-small-for-the-dog balls, it happens with
household objects the dog shouldn't have access to, its not just about raw
food. We just have to be ready by supervising mealtimes, like we would do
with a child, to sweep the mouth, and throat or push down or pull up,
anything that just doesn't fit right.

What to remember is that; 1) People aren't going to post on the list every
day, if its just a hohum, SOSO, raw feeding day. Its not the nature of the
beast. ^_^
2) People come looking for , or are referred to, this list because they
need help and reassurance. For whatever reasons, even though they KNOW raw
feeding is best, they either don't have the knowledge or the confidence to
feed raw.
3) People post when something happens that they don't understand, or have
the experience to think through.
4) This list has 10,000 members! Not all of them post every day or even
every week, not even some of them. Why? Because they got what they needed,
and check in only occasionally. Some post Qs on raw chat.
5) This list represents a VERY small part of the people who are online, all
over the world, who feed raw successfully every day. They never found the
list, never needed it, or aren't online. They aren't vocal, except to
friends and neighbors or relatives, don't advertise, don't have a website or
blog. (although there are plenty that do), have no axe to grind. They just
happily, quietly, feed their dogs a species appropriate raw diet.

If you can get on the other side of a few weeks of feeding appropriately
sized meals with bone, your dog will be well on his way to being an
experienced eater of raw! And you will be a lot more experienced and
confident feeder of raw, too!
A link to an archived message about dog/wolf dentition;

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/143301

message # 143301
Eggs is eggs. Good nutrition. But not a meal in itself, at least not at my
house. My reasons?
1) Eggs can be loosening. Entire meals of eggs can be VERY loosening. I feed
one or two a week as a snack meal.
2) The SMELL. Eggs can cause a dog to become very aromatic, room or house
clearingly so. The more eggs, usually the stronger the odor and the longer
it lasts. If it doesn't do this to your dog, well, then, OK.
Shells - some dogs eat 'em, some dogs don't. some dogs eat 'em sometimes. Or
not. Doesn't matter.
There are great fun to feed whole, tho'. Put a whole egg in front of a dog
and watch him figure out what to do with it!

Ah, the good ole barfie veggie glop - NOT! Dogs are carnivores, they have
not evolved to derive nourishment from vegetable matter. A few hundred, or
thousand years of living along side of humans cannot change that. Fresh,
frozen, cooked, or just whizzed up in a food processor, no veggies, nor
grains, nor fruits are species appropriate for dogs. Save your time, save
your money. Dogs have only been fed processed cr*p-in-a-bag since the
beginning of the 20th century. MOST dogs in the USA have only been fed
Doom Nuggets since the '50s, when tv ads became prevalent. That's not
evolution, thats commerce!
http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2004/09/history-of-dog-food.html
http://www.petfoodinstitute.org/petfoodhistory.htm

Dogs ARE wolves, as much as some people want to deny it, whether to line
their pockets, or to promote some fanaticism, or from pure wrong headedness.

wiki says, in part;

** DOG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog

Conservation status

Domesticated

Scientific classification

Domain: Eukaryota

Kingdom: Animalia

Phylum: Chordata

Class: Mammalia

*Order: Carnivora*

Family: Canidae

Genus: Canis

Species: C. lupus

Subspecies: C. l. familiaris

Trinomial name

Canis lupus familiaris

Wolf ancestors

Although all wolves belong to the species Canis lupus, there are (or were)
many subspecies that had developed a distinctive appearance, social
structure, and other traits. For example, the Japanese Wolf and the Eastern
Timber Wolf possess different distinctive coloration, hunting and social
structures. The origin of the dog is so ancient and so worldwide that many
varieties of wolf played a part in it. It is wrong to say that dogs
descended from modern wolves. They descended from ancestral wolves, and this
difference must always be kept in mind. Ancestral wolves of many varieties
existed all over the world.

The Indian Wolf is thought to have contributed to the development of more
breeds of dogs than other subspecies. Many of today's wild dogs, such as the
dingo and the pariah dogs, are descended from this wolf. The Indian Wolf is
also thought to have bred with descendants of the European wolf to create
the Mastiffs and eventually leading to the development of such diverse
breeds as the Pug, the Saint Bernard, and the Bloodhound. The Tibetan
Mastiff is an example of an ancient breed.

The European wolf, in turn, may have contributed many of its attributes to
the Spitz dog types, most terriers, and many of today's sheepdogs. The
Chinese wolf is probably ancestor to the Pekingese and toy spaniels,
although it is also probable that descendants of the Chinese and European
wolves encountered each other over the millennia, contributing to many of
the oriental toy breeds.

The Eastern Timber Wolf is a direct ancestor to most, if not all, of the
North American northern sled dog types. This interbreeding still occurs with
dogs living in the Arctic region, where the attributes of the wolf that
enable survival in a hostile environment are valued by humans. Additionally,
unintentional crossbreeding occurs simply because dogs and wolves live in
the same environment. The general reproductive isolation which is required
to define dogs and wolves as separate species is purely a result of lack of
opportunity, stemming from a general mutual unfamiliarity, suspicion,
mistrust, and fear.
The phenotypic characteristics that distinguish a wolf from a dog are
tenuous. Wolves typically have a "brush tail" and erect ears. While some dog
breeds possess one of these characteristics, they rarely possess both.

** WOLF

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf

Conservation status

Least Concern [1]

Scientific classification

Kingdom: Animalia

Phylum: Chordata

Class: Mammalia

*Order: Carnivora*

Family: Canidae

Genus: Canis

Species: C. lupus

Binomial name

Canis lupus

The Gray Wolf (Canis lupus), also known as the Timber Wolf or, simply, Wolf,
is a mammal of the order Carnivora. The Gray Wolf is the largest member of
the genus Canis. Its shoulder height ranges from 0.6 to 0.9 meters (26–36
inches) and its weight typically varies between 32 and 62 kilograms (70–135
pounds). As evidenced by DNA sequencing and genetic drift studies, the gray
wolf shares a common ancestry with the domestic dog (Canis lupus
familiaris). [2]

Relation to the dog

Much debate has centered on the relationship between the wolf and the
domestic dog, though most authorities see the wolf as the dog's direct
ancestor. Others postulate that dogs descend from the Golden Jackal. Because
the canids have evolved recently and different canids interbreed readily,
untangling the true relationships has been difficult.

**** But molecular systematics now indicate very strongly that domestic
dogs and wolves are more closely related than either is to any other canid,
and the domestic dog is now normally classified as a subspecies of the wolf:
Canis lupus familiaris. ****

The main differences between wolves and domestic dogs are that wolves have,
on average, 20% larger brains, better immune systems, a better sense of
smell, and are generally much larger than domestic dogs.[4

**Coyote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote

Conservation status

Least Concern [1]

Scientific classification

Kingdom: Animalia

Phylum: Chordata

Class: Mammalia**

*Order: Carnivora*

Family: Canidae

Genus: Canis

Species: C. latrans

Diet and hunting

Coyotes are versatile carnivores with a 90% mammalian diet. They primarily
eat small mammals, such as eastern cottontails, thirteen-lined ground
squirrels, and white-footed mice, though they will occasionally eat birds,
snakes, large insects and other large invertebrates. Though they will
consume large amounts of carrion, they tend to prefer fresh meat. Part of
the coyote's success as a species is it's dietary adaptability. As such,
coyotes have been known to readily eat human garbage and household pets.
Fruits and vegetables are a significant part of the coyote's diet in the
autumn and winter months.[2]

Coyotes will sometimes mate with domestic dogs, usually in areas like Texasand
Oklahoma where the coyotes are plentiful and the breeding season is extended
because of the warm weather. The resulting hybrids called coydogs maintain
the coyote's predatory nature, along with the dog's lack of timidity toward
humans, making them a usually more serious threat to livestock than pure
blooded animals. This cross breeding has the added effecct of confusing the
breeding cycle. Coyotes usually breed only once a year, while coydogs will
breed year-round, producing many more pups than a wild coyote. A
distinguishable feature in a coydog is the ears and tail.[9]

Coyotes have also been known on occasion to mate with wolves. The offspring,
known as a coywolf is generally intermediate in size to both parents, being
larger than a pure coyote, but smaller than a pure wolf. A study showed that
of 100 coyotes collected in Maine, 22 had half or more wolf ancestry, and
one was 89 percent wolf. A theory has been proposed that the large eastern
coyotes in Canada are actually hybrids of the smaller western coyotes and
wolves that met and mated decades ago as the coyotes moved toward New
England from their earlier western ranges.[8] The red wolf is considered by
some to be a wolf/coyote hybrid, due to its habit of readily mating with
coyotes and the fact that it carries no unique genetic trait that would make
it distinct from coyotes and grey wolves.[10]

Canidae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canidae

scientific classification

Kingdom: Animalia

Phylum: Chordata

Class: Mammalia

Order: Carnivora

Suborder: Caniformia

Family: Canidae

G. Fischer de Waldheim, 1817

Genera

* Alopex

* Atelocynus

* Canis

* Cerdocyon

* Chrysocyon

* Cuon

* Cynotherium †

* Dusicyon †

* Dasycyon †

* Fennecus (Part of Vulpes)

* Lycalopex (Part of Pseudalopex)

* Lycaon

* Nyctereutes

* Otocyon

* Pseudalopex

* Speothos

* Urocyon

* Vulpes

TMI?

TC
Giselle

On 10/11/07, angela182548 <angela182548@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> -Thanks so much Giselle ~ You are awesome...great info...makes things
> a little clearer. How do you feel about chicken bones and raw eggs?
> what about veggie mush? I juice the veggies and fruit first and then
> put everything in the food processor. ???
>

Thanks so much, Angela
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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15. I am so confused...Please help
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:57 pm ((PDT))

I am getting my rescue dog tomorrow (which has mange) I was prepared
to start her on the raw diet asap, but I have been reading and have
been informed that I need to make her fast from 2-7 days before
starting the raw diet. I have no idea what to do. Can someone let me
know which would be better, starting raw asap, or fasting 2-7 days.

Thanks,
Tracy

Messages in this topic (1)
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