[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12213

There are 20 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
From: ri_bulldogs
1b. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
From: katkellm
1c. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
From: ri_bulldogs
1d. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
From: costrowski75
1e. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
From: katkellm
1f. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
From: ri_bulldogs

2. feeding rabbit meat
From: lrosem3

3.1. Re: Deer
From: Loraine Jesse
3.2. Re: Deer
From: Loraine Jesse
3.3. Re: Deer
From: costrowski75
3.4. Re: Deer
From: Tracey WAGC
3.5. Re: Deer
From: susrob061174
3.6. Re: Deer
From: Loraine Jesse

4a. Supplement?
From: trayc2244
4b. Re: Supplement?
From: cozumel_leaann

5. photos question
From: beaulah_2001us

6a. menu planning?
From: Nicole
6b. Re: menu planning?
From: Laurie Swanson
6c. Re: menu planning?
From: katkellm

7a. Scratching
From: raeminpin24

Messages
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1a. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
Posted by: "ri_bulldogs" ri_bulldogs@yahoo.com ri_bulldogs
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:01 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Strother"
<denisestrother@...> wrote:
>

> You don't say how old this dog is or how much he weighs. Let us
know
> these things too. But, barring the issue of too much food, it could
> be just one of those things. If he is acting his normal self, I
> would skip a meal and see how things are tomorrow and go from
there.
> Glad the others are doing well. Denise
>

Sorry. I was trying to be soo thorough too LOL. He is 11 months old
and weighs approximately 53lbs.

We had already fed him again before we got this reply. So fingers
are crossed that he will be ok. He does seem a little sleepy, but
all of the pups have been sleeping after eating lately. But they are
bulldogs so I figured maybe they were getting a good work out for
their food.

We are feeding the pups who are all in the 50 - 55 pound range 1 1/2
pounds a day (broken into 2 meals). Husband thinks maybe we overhead
him?

These pups were also getting probiotics twice a week. But stopped
when we began to raw feed. Perhaps we should start them back up?

Thanks for your help.
Becky

Messages in this topic (9)
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1b. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:01 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ri_bulldogs" <ri_bulldogs@...>
wrote:>This afternoon he had an accident in the house (he has
> not done this since he was trained) it was definately diarhea (loos
> amost liquid consistency), there was quite a bit of mucous with it.
>No blood no bones nothing else.

Hi Becky,
Don't worry about the mucous. The mucous is produced as a response to
irritation in the intestines and is the body's way of soothing and/or
moving things along. As Dennis said, i would fast this dog for a meal
and then offer him his chicken with no skin or fat again. I would
probably offer him a smaller than normal portion for his first meal.
If all goes well, you can feed another smaller meal later on. There
are two things to consider. The skin and fat could have just been a
little too rich for him at this point in his raw feeding journey, or
the addition of the skin and fat, as Dennis said, could just have
resulted in your feeding him too much food. I am glad the others are
doing great. This little guy will do fine, too, just a little fine
tuning is required because his system just seems to be more sensitive
than your other guys. KathyM

Messages in this topic (9)
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1c. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
Posted by: "ri_bulldogs" ri_bulldogs@yahoo.com ri_bulldogs
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:01 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "amvilppu" <amvilppu@...> wrote:

>
> I am not a raw expert as I am new to this too, but our pup has
giardia right now and the
> mucousy pooh and diarrhea are symptoms of giardia. It could just
be transitioning to raw
> but I would be skeptical since nothing has changed in the diet and
the pup was tolerating it
> fine. Others will have better advice, but I would monitor it and
do stool sample to rule out
> other factors if it persists. Good luck. Nothing worse that a pup
not feeling well.
>
> Annaliisa, Drew and Boxer pup Laila
>

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate the thought. Giardia is also
accompanied by a nasty smell most times. None of the dogs are
experiencing that. Also none goes out without supervision so the
chances are pretty slim. We live with quite a few dogs so we are no
strangers to parasites and run fecal evals ourselves pretty
regularly. Especially since all but one are bulldogs and if anything
can go wrong it will go wrong with a bully. I checked the stool
under the scope and ran a float test prior to posting and saw nothing
remiss ( a few bits of bone but nothing major).

Much luck with your puppy.
Becky

Messages in this topic (9)
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1d. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:32 pm ((PDT))

"amvilppu" <amvilppu@...> wrote:
> I am not a raw expert as I am new to this too, but our pup has
giardia right now and the
> mucousy pooh and diarrhea are symptoms of giardia.
*****
They are also symptoms of pancreatitis and IBD and colitis. They also
happen when plain old unadorned digestive upset happens. Mucous is a
natural lubricant, it greases the pipes in order to move out the
irritant.

I agree that a fecal should be on the list of considerations; but I
also think backing up, simplifying the diet and adjusting it to suit
the needs of the dog should be happening even as other options are
considered.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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1e. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:35 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ri_bulldogs" <ri_bulldogs@...> wrote:
> We are feeding the pups who are all in the 50 - 55 pound range 1 1/2
pounds a day (broken into 2 meals). Husband thinks maybe we overhead
him?

Hi Becky,
Me thinks dh is right. 2% of their weight is closer to one pound a
day. I'm not saying that you should only feed a pound a day for
forever, some dogs need more, some need less, but less food is always
better to start with and then adjust upwards if you see the dog needs
more. I think you did the right thing in dropping the probiotic. I
don't believe that it is necessary for a healthy dog on a raw food
diet. KathyM

Messages in this topic (9)
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1f. Re: Please help with Stool issues (sorry so graphic)
Posted by: "ri_bulldogs" ri_bulldogs@yahoo.com ri_bulldogs
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:00 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
>
As Dennis said, i would fast this dog for a meal
> and then offer him his chicken with no skin or fat again. I would
> probably offer him a smaller than normal portion for his first
meal.
> If all goes well, you can feed another smaller meal later on. There
> are two things to consider. The skin and fat could have just been a
> little too rich for him at this point in his raw feeding journey, or
> the addition of the skin and fat, as Dennis said, could just have
> resulted in your feeding him too much food. I am glad the others
are
> doing great. This little guy will do fine, too, just a little fine
> tuning is required because his system just seems to be more
sensitive
> than your other guys. KathyM
>
Kathy,
It must have been overfeeding then, cuz we never gave anyone skin or
fat. We removed all of it. Maybe it would be best to continue not
giving fat and skin for a very long time.

Thanks everyone.
Becky

Messages in this topic (9)
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2. feeding rabbit meat
Posted by: "lrosem3" lrosem3@yahoo.com lrosem3
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:54 pm ((PDT))

just started feeding my 2 dogs ground up rabbit meat,,,,they LOVE it....Lynn

Messages in this topic (1)
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3.1. Re: Deer
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:57 pm ((PDT))

Does it make any difference where you live for the deer? I live in Alberta, Canada and apparently the deer are supposed to have some sort of fading disease (have no idea what that means). Would that affect the dogs? In this area it is illegal to take deer off of the road and fish and wildlife do monitor. So battling my Husband about this is kind of hard. How would you know how long the deer has been dead for, like if it was rotting for a few days or, weeks, would you still feed it?
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

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3.2. Re: Deer
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:57 pm ((PDT))

Here is a link to the site that talks about what is happening to the deer in this area. As mentioned if I could get one, not sure if it would be safe to feed to my dogs? http://www.srd.gov.ab.ca/whatsnew/features/060119.aspx
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

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Messages in this topic (61)
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3.3. Re: Deer
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:22 pm ((PDT))

Loraine Jesse <rothburg@...> wrote:>
> Here is a link to the site that talks about what is happening to
the deer in this area. As mentioned if I could get one, not sure if
it would be safe to feed to my dogs?
*****
There is no research that indicates CWD is transferrable to wolves.
Cats, yes. Dogs, no.

Where CWD has been an issue in the US, natural culling by wolves of
ailing deer is believed to keep down the spread of the disease to
other deer. When wolf populations decrease, the level of CWD
appears to increase. Artifically culled herds lead almost
invariably to decreased wolf populations, since wolves depend on
stable deer populations. When the wolf population drops, the
incidence of CWD rises. And then the F&W have to kill more deer,
not less.

The big problem (at least as it presents itself here in California,
a state that does not currently have CWD) is the inability of
hunters to move deer into a non-CWD area from even a potential CWD
area. This diminishes by a LOT how much venison the custom butchers
receive to process and virtually stops the supply of trim to
opportunistic rawfeeders.

If you get a deer locally, you can feed it to your dogs without
worrying about CWD---IF the local F&W guys allow you to keep it.

If you can feed it but you are worried about CWD transferring to
your dog, don't feed the brain, neck, spine or tail.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (61)
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3.4. Re: Deer
Posted by: "Tracey WAGC" wagc@sasktel.net frustrated_tracey
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:56 pm ((PDT))

CWD or Chronic wasting disease in Saskatchewan, we cull the deer and Elk here in certain zones, SERM gives you three tags and after you fill them you cut the head off and turn it in and they give you three more tags, they test a small piece of the brain for CWD if it comes back negative, you can eat the deer. SERM also says CWD does not pose a threat to humans if you consume a deer. But then again will you trust the govenment. On that note though in zones outside the CWD zones rarely does one send in the head to get tested so the deer could have CWD and one would not know it, unless of course the deer is so sick that it looks sick. I killed one a few years back and when I skinned it it had no fat to speak of and looked thin. I can't remember if we ate that one or not. CWD is in the spinal fluid and brain stem so as long as your not eating that (eeeww) then you should be ok. It's actually not a bad idea if you know someone that goes out and culls the deer, last year one guy got 72 deer and gave them away to people and churches and all they had to do was wait for the test results that take about 2 weeks.
As for not knowing how long a deer has been dead for, I know that you can leave a dead deer over night and gut it the next day and it will still be ok as long as the weather is cold, if its warmer they bloat faster and stink if you press on the gut, (accidently came across someone elses kill that they lost, pretty stinky and gross, the smell of death I call it). As for feeding an old rotting one to your dog, I'm new also so someone else could answer that. Farmers around here will take a deer of the road if its close to home and give it to the farm dogs. It's illegal here but then again there are so few CO's that the percentage of getting caught is low. As for getting one thats a few weeks, well if you can get close enough to it and have the stomach to pick it up through the maggots then by all means your a better female that I. If you can do that then you could probably go ask any rancher where his dump site for his cattle are and ask him if you can go chop up some fresh cows. Now that I wrote that, its not a bad idea. Just ask the farmers when they kill a lame cow to call you and you could have alot of meat for little work.

Tracey

----- Original Message -----
From: Loraine Jesse
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 7:32 PM
Subject: RE: [rawfeeding] Re: Deer

Here is a link to the site that talks about what is happening to the deer in this area. As mentioned if I could get one, not sure if it would be safe to feed to my dogs? http://www.srd.gov.ab.ca/whatsnew/features/060119.aspx

Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

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Messages in this topic (61)
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3.5. Re: Deer
Posted by: "susrob061174" susrob061174@yahoo.com susrob061174
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:59 pm ((PDT))

Infections are known in wild mule deer, elk, and white-tailed deer in
a small area of the western US and in Wisconsin/Illinois, In addition,
infections have been found in game farm cervids in USA (various
states), Canada (Saskatchewan, Alberta), and Korea. Recently, isolated
reports in wild deer in some of these regions have occurred.

Thank you for all of yall concerns, but however I am not worried about
CWD. I live in Ga, and it not a major concern here, yet. As for the
deer, it was only a couple hours old. I dont get anything that is
stiff, rotting, ants or maggots (ewwww). I always get when the insides
are still warm. Freshly killed. I live at a crossing for deer on our
land both sides of the road. It not hard to miss a deer. Its not
against the law here in our county to pickup roadkill either. Besides,
I call the sheriff department everytime when I pickup one, to let them
know the size, sex and reason for death. The major reason why I have
so much deer, is they call me to pickup deer throughout the county.
Small county and town. No one else ask for them. Thanks for the advise
on the cattle ranchers, we a have lot around here, never thought of it.

Susanne, Courtney & The Danes

Messages in this topic (61)
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3.6. Re: Deer
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:53 am ((PDT))

Thank-you. Very interesting indeed and good advice. I live near allot of farmers yet, travel hours just to pick up meat and chickens. Appreciate the ideas.
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

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4a. Supplement?
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:31 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
If my dog rarely gets fish in his diet, is it appropriate to
supplement with fish oil capsules? And if so, what is the best to buy?

Thanks,
Tracy

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Supplement?
Posted by: "cozumel_leaann" cozumel_leaann@yahoo.com cozumel_leaann
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:00 pm ((PDT))

Hi! I feed raw and often add a product called Grizzly Salmon Oil to
my dogs' food. It comes in a pump bottle, and I just squirt it over
the food. It beats trying to shove a capsule down their throat, or
messing with puncturing one and squirting it all over the place.

That's just my opinion!

Good luck with it!
Lea Ann

Messages in this topic (2)
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5. photos question
Posted by: "beaulah_2001us" beaulah_2001us@yahoo.com beaulah_2001us
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:53 am ((PDT))

Can someone please tell me why I cannot create a photo album? There is
not place that says creat photo album. Is this feature shut down?

Sandy

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. menu planning?
Posted by: "Nicole" reotec@mertonrush.com.au mammosgrub
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:53 am ((PDT))

Hi to everyone.

I am new to the site so thought i would intro myself (and pets) before
i ask my question.

My name is Nicole and i live in Melbourne, Australia, with my 9yo
Rottweiler dog (Maverick) and 2yo Burmese cat (Remi). I am just
switching my pets over to raw, hence me visting your site.

My first question is can anyone supply me with their actual weekly
meals for their dog? I can find lots on what types of things to feed
- but i am kind of wanting a plan to follow for the first week or two
to kick me off. Any suggestions would be great.

I am wanting something like: meal#1 = ##kg diced beef with ##grams
liver with #x chicken carcases?? or meal#2 = 2xchick drumstick with
turkey carcass or meal#3 = ##kg beef brisket with #gms Ox tails....etc

My other question is can dogs be fed frozen mice/rats? If so how many
would be a meal?

Many thanks for any responses.

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: menu planning?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:20 am ((PDT))

Hi Nicole,

Welcome. Start with around 2-3% of the dog's body weight in food per
day, fed as frequently as you're currently feeding. I don't have
cats but they're similar, although can be trickier to switch. You'll
get some cat advice here, but there is also the sister list, RawCat,
where you can get a lot more help.

For the first week or two, you'll want to keep it simple and try not
to overfeed or feed too much variety or too much fat, to keep from
having digestive issues. Most people find chicken easy to start
with. You can just buy whole chickens, cut into halves or quarters
for your dog, and feed. Save the organs for a couple weeks down the
road or more, when things are going well. Then you can start
gradually adding in more variety, too.

After several years of raw, and a year of prey model, my 23# dog's
current diet looks something like this: Because this is what I had
around for a new rescue I just adopted, yesterday he had about 1/4#
chopped turkey breast and 1/4# of a very large turkey neck. The day
before, he had another 3/4# of the same large turkey neck. The day
before that, he had about 1/2# boneless lamb meat plus worked on the
meat and cartilage of some lamb leg bones. The 2 previous days, he
had Kongs (red rubber toys you fill w/food/treats) filled with either
ground rabbit or beef. He's also been eating a lot of big pork necks
with added meat (usually lamb). Sometimes I feed boneless hunks of
lamb or beef with a chicken foot or two as well (to add some bone to
the meal). I love to get him big hunks of goat, too, so if I do
that, he'll work on a 5# leg or other part for several days. When I
have it and think about it (every few days to every couple weeks) I
throw in a small piece of pork spleen, lamb or beef liver,
pork/beef/lamb/turkey heart or any other organs. I find he does
better if I don't feed more than 1 or 2 boneless meals in a row (the
bone helps firm up the stool). I have also fed the occasional egg.

Dogs can eat mice and rats, but I personally haven't fed them. Maybe
others can help out on that one.

So, the diet will depend on what you have access to and what your dog
does well with. You will learn your sources over time. And, it all
balances out over time. You don't have to get all the
nutrients/variety in in one day or week or two.

Good luck,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole" <reotec@...> wrote:
> I am wanting something like: meal#1 = ##kg diced beef with ##grams
> liver with #x chicken carcases?? or meal#2 = 2xchick drumstick with
> turkey carcass or meal#3 = ##kg beef brisket with #gms Ox
tails....etc

Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: menu planning?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:42 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole" <reotec@...> wrote:
> My first question is can anyone supply me with their actual weekly
> meals for their dog? I can find lots on what types of things to feed
> - but i am kind of wanting a plan to follow for the first week or two
> to kick me off.

Hi Nicole,
Nice to meet you and Maverick and Remi. For the first week, your menu
will be very easy. You need, for your dog, to pick one protein
source, normally the recommended first meat is chicken, and feed it
for a week. How much chicken to feed is determined by figuring what
2%of your dog's ideal body weight is and then you feed that amount
daily. Since your dog's digestive system needs time to adjust to raw
food, your dog needs to gradually build up the ability to handle a
variety of parts from a variety of critters. If you feed too much new
food too soon, you are liable to end up with lots of loose stools. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Scratching
Posted by: "raeminpin24" raeminpin24@yahoo.com raeminpin24
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:20 am ((PDT))

I did so well figuring out how to post that after I did so and everyone
who answered me was so nice I have another question. For those who did
not read the last question I have 3 dogs that this friday I started on
raw and now I noticed last night that my german pinscher is scraching a
lot, could this be the weather as she came from New Jersey to Pa or is
it the raw diet and something I'm not or doing needs changed? She has
been with me since July 5th of this year. I also have her and my
minature pinscher eating grass and wanting out to get it more often and
my other Fox Terrior thew up some yellow acid color but dosen't eat the
grass as often. Any sugestions would be much welcome.

Thanx Rae

Messages in this topic (8)
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