Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12020

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
From: beckie716
1b. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: performance dogs
From: betty hinson

3a. Asking again/Was Re: 5 months in checkup/organs
From: flyinheller
3b. Asking again/Was Re: 5 months in checkup/organs
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: How Many Times A Day To Feed
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: chronic diarrhea
From: carnesbill
5b. Re: chronic diarrhea
From: Yasuko herron

6a. Re: Large dog with diarrhea for a few days....
From: Giselle

7a. Re: Aggression!!!
From: Sandee Lee
7b. Re: Aggression!!!
From: nkjvcjs

8a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

9.1. File - Other related lists
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

10a. Re: Gurgling tummies and fairly new to raw
From: Pamela Picard
10b. Re: Gurgling tummies and fairly new to raw
From: Giselle

11a. Re: Veal Raw Meaty Bones
From: * shadygrove
11b. Re: Veal Raw Meaty Bones
From: Morledzep@aol.com
11c. Re: Veal Raw Meaty Bones
From: Yasuko herron

12a. Re: Hurt Puppy
From: Giselle

13a. Re: Hi, new here, need help with raw feeding my siberian huskies
From: Sandee Lee

14a. Re: Intro with questions
From: Giselle

15a. A Little Freaked Out
From: Roxane
15b. Re: A Little Freaked Out
From: Sandee Lee

16a. Re: Poop question
From: Giselle

17a. Re: 5 months in checkup/organs
From: Laurie Swanson

Messages
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1a. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
Posted by: "beckie716" beckie716@yahoo.com beckie716
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:27 pm ((PDT))

Whoa! I just read in another post that there may be evidence of a link
with prednisone/pancreatitis. Re: raw feeding for 2 years, suddenly
very sick * update-looks like. My dog just went through a round of
prednisone 3-4 weeks ago, and had another injection of some steroid on
the same day as blood testing.

I wonder?

Beckie :)

Messages in this topic (9)
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1b. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:39 pm ((PDT))

Beckie,

There are many causes of pancreatitis...drugs such as prednisone being one
of them.

But your dog's amylase was not elevated enough to cause any concern.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "beckie716" <beckie716@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (9)
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2a. Re: performance dogs
Posted by: "betty hinson" b_hinson@sbcglobal.net paps4jesus
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:28 pm ((PDT))

Hey LInda Betty Here I just feed a regular diet to my Paps when showing in agility. Thye seem to do welll and have the energy. With a raw diet no need of anything extra. ITs the kibble diets that will get to them See you at Franklin
Betty Hinson
b_hinson@sbcglobal.net
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me Phil 4:13

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. Asking again/Was Re: 5 months in checkup/organs
Posted by: "flyinheller" lheller@bellsouth.net flyinheller
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:28 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "flyinheller" <lheller@...> wrote:
>
> Everything is going great on raw but just wanted to make sure I'm
> giving enough variety when it comes to organs specifically. Spenser
is
> getting beef or pork liver, beef or pork kidney, and occasionally
green
> tripe. I haven't found much else at the stores. Is that sufficient
> organ variety?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Lisa
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Asking again/Was Re: 5 months in checkup/organs
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 1:08 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "flyinheller" <lheller@...> wrote:
>
> Spenser is
> getting beef or pork liver, beef or pork kidney, and occasionally
> green tripe. I haven't found much else at the stores. Is
> that sufficient organ variety?

Sure, it's more than my dogs get.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: How Many Times A Day To Feed
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:28 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Roxane" <roxanegraham@...> wrote:
>
> It looks like a lot of people feed raw once a day and I
> was wondering
> why they do so. I do like to feed twice a day, is there some
> reason I should not.

I think many of the once a day or every other day feeders do so in
order to feed larger pieces such as whole chickens etc.

I prefer to feed twice a day just because thats what me and my dogs
prefer. I have no problem with feeding parts of animals instead of
the whole animal.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: chronic diarrhea
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:28 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jen S" <jennilist@...> wrote:
>
> He had parvo when
> he was at the shelter, and my vet said that because of this he will
> always have a problem with loose stools. Is this true?

I don't have any experience with Parvo but I doubt that is true.

> My question is (besides can parvo cause lifelong looser stool) does
> anyone have any idea why he might have diarrhea so badly? He
> gets a
> good amount of bone, not a lot of organ meat

Whats a good amount of bone for one dog may not be nearly enough for
another. Particularly one who has not yet adjusted properly to a
raw diet.

> I try to feed him a little more bone than
> my other dog in hopes that it will firm up his stools, but
> it doesn't
> seem to work.

If it were my dog I would feed him so real boney stuff like chicken
backs and turkey necks almost exclusively and I would also cut down
on the volume of food I give him by about 1/2 for a few weeks. I
would also cut off any excess fat and cut off skin. I would not
feed him any organs for a couple of months. If diet is the cause of
his diarrhea, this should do the trick.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: chronic diarrhea
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 2:59 pm ((PDT))

>Sorry for asking a question that was recently answered.

Hi. Asking is better than not asking because you have to wonder all the time:-P

List is where you gain your knowledge by asking.Don't worry.

I just thought that I would mention that some similar questions were posted before and,thought that it may become added info for you,that is all.

Hope your dogs get better..

yassy

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: Large dog with diarrhea for a few days....
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:29 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Laura!
There's a few issues here that I would identify as needing
tweaking, if this were my dog.

a) Your dog's diet is too limited. Even if HE doesn't seem to want to
eat other proteins and organs, he needs to. You are The Mom here, you
get to decide what's best for him, and provide it. And help him learn
how to like it. More on that later.

b) Yogurt isn't 'the best' remedy for anything for dogs. After their
own mother's milk, dogs have no need of, nor ability to properly
digest, milk products. For true diarrhea, you need a vet. Most loose,
runny or sloppy stools are not diarrhea, just the dog's natural
response to what he ate. Constantly trying to get "perfect poop" every
time like the kibble ads promote in a raw fed dog is doomed to
failure, and isn't at all necessary.

c) Chicken - some dogs get itchy, some dogs get extra runny poops,
some dogs vomit when they eat chicken that is enhanced in some way.
Read the labels; look for enhanced, seasoned, flavored, salt injected
- there are lots of creative ways that it can say; liquid and other
stuff added. Try to get minimally processed meats, and see if your dog
responds better.

d) Offer plenty of fresh water, even no salt chicken or beef broth to
keep him well hydrated.

e) Fast him for a day. Don't offer any food. Sometimes a dog's
digestive system, when it is irritated, just needs a rest.

f) You can dose him with some Slippery Elm Bark Powder,to soothe his
digestive system during the fast day. This will coat his stomach and
intestines with mucous and calm down any inflammation or irritation.

g) Back to being the dog mom; when you reintroduce food, you need to
give him the tough love treatment. Start out with the (nonenhanced)
chicken he likes. Feed smaller portions, but feed from the whole
chicken, all the parts. Anything he doesn't eat goes back in the
fridge for the next meal. He gets only what he rejected for the next
meal. He doesn't want it? fine. Serve it only for 2 days. Then, move
on to something else. If you don't offer in between meal inducements
or large portions of the parts he does like, he will learn to eat what
is provided for him. Don't hover, don't coax, don't hand feed. If he
doesn't eat it in 10-15 minutes, put it back in the fridge.

h) After a few days, start adding a bit of another protein to his
preferred chicken. Even if he hasn't liked it before, reintroduce it
to him. Warm it in a plastic bag under very warm water, or sear it
very quickly in a hot pan. Just a couple small bits. If you are
keeping his portions a bit smaller than what you think he should eat,
he should start 'clearing his plate'. Increase the bits of other
protein, and decrease the chicken, until he is eating an entire meal
of the other protein. Feed just that protein for a week. Then, add
another, and so forth.

i) Some dogs like their food cold, or partially or mostly frozen.
Others like it warm. Play with that, offering new proteins and organs
at his preferred temperature. Smearing a newly introduced protein with
some mashed canned fish or tripe, or some other smelly but often liked
foods, can ease the switch. Just phase out the 'seasoning' gradually.
Cutting slits in the new protein to mush the smelly stuff into can
encourage the dog to start to eat it.

j) Apples, and any other plant matter, are not part of an optimal diet
for a dog. Dogs are carnivores, and need just meat, fat, organ and
bone in their diet.

k) Eggs can be loosening - they're good protein. But, they do tend to
produce loose stools in some dogs.

10) Probiotics are probably not necessary. If you dog has a disease or
digestive problem, he may benefit from them. If you need to feed them,
get a good human quality probiotic, one that is enteric coated, dairy
free, has multiple strains and is free of additives like soy, sugar,
preservatives, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotic

11) Review all the recommendations I'm going to post. Its always a
good idea to take a look at what you know about raw feeding, and how
that compares to how you are feeding.

1. You want to start with 2-3% of your dog's ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT
weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less
if your dog gets 'fluffy' over the space of a few weeks. You might
start out by weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps
don't continue once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding
raw. Tiny, toy, pregnant, puppies or very active dogs might need as
much as 4-5% or more - very large, giant, overweight or couch potato
dogs might need less than 2% to maintain.

2. Ditch the kibble or canned â" thereâ™s been plenty of discussion on
this list about why processed foods and raw don't mix; just let it
suffice that your dog can reap the benefits of raw faster and more
completely if you donate the kibble to your local shelter asap. A
species appropriate raw whole prey model diet doesn't include kibble.
Or veggies, grains or tons of supps. Or, for the most part, ground
meats. No need for w/rec/k bones either. And, your dog may be less
motivated to make the change if he can smell that kibble!

3. Feed at least 2 meals a day to start with. (three meals for a pup
under 6 months old or for tiny dogs) Feeding once a day (or even less
often) can be a great feeding plan for a dog, but not at first; too
much new food at a meal can cause digestive upset. Feed as large a
portion as you can for the size of the meal. No little pieces or cut
up, â˜bite sizedâ™ chucks. Dogs need to tear into their food and shear
hunks off to swallow and crunch bone for physical, mental and dental
health. They donâ™t chew or eat the way we do, their digestion begins
in their stomachs, not in their mouths. So swallowing big hunks of
meat and bone is fine. If it fits, its OK. If it isnâ™t happy in the
stomach, the dog will hork it up, and re eat it, so it will go down
and stay down the 2nd or 3rd time. All good, thatâ™s the way dogs are.

4. Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive
upset, too.

5. Stay with one new protein for at least a week, maybe two. You want
the dog to be showing you he is well adjusted to the new protein
before adding in new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new protein
every week or two.

6. You can switch to a new protein by just serving it at the next
meal, and all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a
bite or two of the new protein in with the 'old' protein, gradually
adding more new and less 'old' over several days, until you are
feeding all new and no 'old'. Whatever works for your own dog.

7. Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
amount of bone in a newbie dog's meal will tend to firm things up.
There will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less
goes to waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason.
Bone adds bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (don't go
overboard!) bone at each meal at first. Too much bone and your dog
can get âœ fossilâ poops that are dry, whitish and crumbly.

8. Chicken is recommended as the first protein to be introduced for
several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, easy to cut into different
dog meal sized portions, you can trim visible fat and skin if you need
to tweak, most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland. Read the labels
on the chicken before you buy; don't get any that say its enhanced
with flavoring/seasonings or salt injected. Some dogs get itchy or
vomit or get true diarrhea from enhancements. Whole chickens are the
best to start with, ime. Cut into portion sizes with kitchen shears,
as needed.

9. Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much
bone may not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it
out. NPs, its just the dog's way of saying "Too much right now, no
thanks."

10. Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bile Vomits (BV or BBV)
when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating
have been changed. When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric 'juices'
become much more acid, to better digest the raw meat and bone. If he's
expecting a meal at a certain time, the 'juices start flowing' in
anticipation of getting a meal. When the meal doesn't happen, the dog
often will hork up the yellowish, foamyish bile, with or without
bones. Sometimes they hork up BBV because raw digests faster than
kibble, the tummy is empty, so it must be time to eat. NP for the dog,
he's gotten rid of the irritation. He may react as if he feels bad,
just because you are upset that he did it on your new comforter, or on
the white carpet.

11. A lot of dogs don't drink as much water or as frequently when
switched to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content
and most dogs are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to
compensate in order for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw,
you don't need to coax your dog to drink more water or even broth,
just offer plenty of fresh water, he'll drink when he needs it.

12. True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is
frequent, liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot 'hold
back'. True diarrhea, imo, is caused by disease, parasites or
inappropriate food or non food items. The occasional loose poops, even
over a few days, from feeding a few too many boneless meals or
introing a new protein or feeding too much organ at one whack, is not
diarrhea.

13. The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is
served must be consumed) and 10% organs (5% of this is liver, the rest
is as much variety as you can find and afford) This is not an
immutable 'daily requirement'. Balance Over Time, over weeks and
months is one of the raw feeding mottos. ; ) If you feed true whole
prey, that is; entire animals at a time, then the meat to bone to
organ ratios are 'perfect' for that creature. Whatever parts your dog
can eat of is right for him. In the wild, wolves will eat off a large
animal carcass for days, and each wolf gets different parts. If times
are hard, they will consume the entire critter, including skin, fur,
less 'choice' parts and will even crack the hard long bones to get to
the marrow. If pickin's are plentiful, they will eat the easiest and
choice parts, and then move on. Because of variances in size, age,
personality, life experiences and dental ability, a particular dog
will be able to consume, or not: all or part or some or a little bone
from any particular animal. If you feed 'Frankenprey', that is; a
variety of protein, body parts and organs from different animals, to
simulate the whole prey experience for your dogs, you are challenged
to find enough variety in all these aspects for optimal health.

14. Organs - don't try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at
first. An easy way to satisfy the human need to "Do it all, right
now!", is to toss the gizzards and heart you get with your whole
chickens in with a bonier meal, a little piece at a meal. Heart and
gizzards are organs, but should be fed as meatymeat. The liver can be
cut up into teensy bits, and fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal.
This will allow you to feed organs, but shouldn't cause runny stools.
If it does, cut it out and freeze those parts for later down the line.
My list of organs, so I don't forget to look for variety; liver, heart
(fed as meat), cheek meat, head meat, salivary glands, feet, lips,
oxtail, spleen, tongue (usually fed as meat), weasand meat
(esophagus), tripe, stomach, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears,
kidneys, brain, tripe, poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard and
snouts. Heads, with all the â˜stuffâ™, including eyes.
"offal" - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by
humans.

15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is "used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis."
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in 1/2 ounce
meatballs, for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with
each meal. Or, fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or
two) offer plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout
the day. Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after,
gradually increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You
will often see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of
the way it soothes the digestive system, and the dog's body will do
the same sometimes even without SEBP.

16. You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog
will eat and that won't break the bank. : ) Common grocery store
variety suffices for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish,
rabbit. Others can obtain at a reasonable price and feed; goat,
venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo, elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea
hen, quail, bear (bear? ;) ), the list goes on and on.

17. If you must supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil,
either in caps or liquid. Make sure it doesn't have any plant based
oils, like soy, in there. You probably don't need much. Follow the
recommendations that come with the product you buy:
http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

In the case of true
disease, you may need certain supps, but this is the exception to the
rule, most dogs donâ™t.

18. Lis' List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein,
parts and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a
free or cheap freezer to hold all the scores you'll be making!

âœ Where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

A) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
B) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
C) You may be able to join a barter group.
D) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
E) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
F) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
G) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
H)If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
I) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or Google to see.
J) Try craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
K) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
L) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Samâ™s Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
M) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
N) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
O) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
P) A great tip I learned here a while back â" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
Q) Farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, â˜cause they don't want to take it back with them.
R) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
S) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
T) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
U) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill. (like deer)
V) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.
W) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
X) Speak to local farmers.
Y) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats.
Z) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
AA) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lisâ

19. Donâ™t hover! It takes some dogs a couple of days to realize that
what youâ™re giving them is real food, and theyâ™re allowed to eat it.
This process will take less time if youâ™re not standing over them in
an excess of anxiety. Some dogs react to that kind of anxiety by
acting as if they donâ™t want the food, when in reality, they are just
confused by your mixed signals. Remember, âœpeople foodâ has always
been off limits to him prior to this! Take the food to his feeding
place, put it on an old towel or rug and have a seat. Donâ™t stare, but
do hang out, reading a magazine until heâ™s done and you can let him
outside and fold up his towel.

Read as many daily posts as you can, read the files on the website,
and follow those links! Search in the archives for past posts with
keywords; new to raw, newbie, help, how do I start or other words that
reflect your specific search.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/?yguid=200913350
TC, and let us know how you and your dog progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> We've been feeding him raw for at least 6 months now, so it's not
> really new to him. He eats primarily chicken leg quarters. Primarily
> = 90% of the time. We've tried to introduce other things, but he
> refuses to even try them.
<snip>
As for probiotics, can he eat people probiotics?
<snip>
> Thanks so much for your help.
>
> Laura

Messages in this topic (6)
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7a. Re: Aggression!!!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:51 pm ((PDT))

Mona,

Go over to the rawchat list and read past messages about resource guarding.
We have discussed this issue quite often.....
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Mona" <mona@ptd.net>

What the heck is this all
about and what do I do to nip it in the bud?? I CANNOT have a food
aggressive dog in my home as I ALWAYS have young kids around (my 7yo
twin girls included)!

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: Aggression!!!
Posted by: "nkjvcjs" nefreed@gmail.com nkjvcjs
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 1:11 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mona" <mona@...> wrote:
>
> Please tell me you can help!!

> I mean REALLY deep down growling and I told her not to growl

Please don't inhibit growling in your dogs. Your dog growls to let
you know that she is uncomfortable with what is happening. If you
make her stop growling without changing the underlying uncomfotable
feelings, you will have a dog that has no communication mechanism left
but to snap or bite.

> Well, I then grabbed the towel away, taking the chicken with it and
> took the chicken and started letting her eat it while I was holding
> it (yuck!) but she was fine!

Here, you two are sharing, you both have possession, and no one is
taking anything away from anyone.

> Then I put it down again and if my hand
> went anywhere near her she growled again!

Now, she has posession, and you might take it away, entirely diffent
perspective from a dog's point of view.

> What the heck is this all
> about and what do I do to nip it in the bud?? I CANNOT have a food
> aggressive dog in my home as I ALWAYS have young kids around (my 7yo
> twin girls included)!

Resource guarding is very situation dependent, but many think it has a
genetic component. Now she has something she really, really likes,
and really does not want to be taken away. Also, you say pup, so she
is also reaching maturity, and realizing that she has interests, and
can defend them.
To keep kids safe it would be best to feed her in her crate only while
you work on changing her mind about the resource guarding.

It was really only a matter of time before the resource guarding
appeared.
The best way to stop resource guarding is to convince your dog that
good thinks happen when people approach her food.
Have something super, super great, (you dog gets to decide what great
is, liver pieces, chicken, lamb, whatever your dog would do anything
for,) and instead of taking her food away, move your hand just close
enough to get her to stop eating, and close her mouth, but not growl
yet, and toss in several pieces of the great stuff. Once she is not
only comfortable, but excited to see your hand at that distance, move
it a bit closer, until you can touch the food, while you feed her the
good stuff. Then you can start to trade. Take the food, jackpot with
great stuff (ie 10-20 treats in a row, as fast as she will eat them)
then give the food back.
Practice this often. You can't let it slide.
Then, start the process over with the kids doing the great stuff
adding and so on.
Once she is letting you trade consistently, you can fade the jackpots
to 1 or 2 treats, but 9 of every 10 times you take anything from her,
she should get it back. So that something being taken away isn't a big
deal, she gets great stuff, and gets the thing back. On the rare
occasion that it is something you can't give back, you have a trade,
and she's no worse for the wear.

You should also teach a "drop it"
good protocol here
http://www.petexpertise.com/about_us/dropitleaveit.htm

Since there are kids involved, you should really get a trainer or
behaviourist to help you out with this.

Hope this helps,

Nicole

Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:53 pm ((PDT))

Hello all! (Don't delete without reading. Yes, there is a test later.)

Firstly, the raw feeding list was established in 1999. It has evolved under a couple of different names, but remains with primarily the same list moderation team.

This primary objective of the list is to provide a place where people who
feed raw food or who want to feed raw can discuss this and closely associated issues.

This is not a list to discuss which kibble or home cooking method is best.
There are other email lists that can provide you with that sort of forum.
The forum here is specifically to discuss appropriate raw diets.

*******A learning environment

We aim at all times to maintain a learning environment.
Every so often someone joins the list with a different agenda.
We work hard in the background to do everything we can to keep discussion on topic at all times, and those who don't find the environment comfortable (about 0.5%), we encourage to join other more suitable email lists.

The most important thing is you join a group you are comfortable with.
We acknowledge the vast differences that exist between people and their learning styles, and as you'll appreciate we can't make everyone happy.

Now for a few of the easy rules:

*******PLEASE TRIM YOUR POSTS

This means when you are replying to an email DO NOT include the ENTIRE EMAIL in your reply.

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This means when you are to sign your name at the bottom of every single mail you send to the list.

List members who continue to send unsigned posts after being warned risk having their mail deleted!!

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This is a high volume list. Changing subject lines allows people to delete those messages that are topics they have no interest in. IF you change subject lines properly then when responding to a post of the same subject you should not have to include ANY of the email you are responding too since those reading the thread will be able to follow it anyway.

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(and please don't advertise in your signatures either)

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You will not get OFF of moderate until you prove you can trim your posts and change your subject lines. ALSO the moderators do not have time to trim your posts for you so if a post comes through moderate that is not trimmed it will be sent back to you to trim before it is sent to the list.

If you are currently off of moderate but stop changing subject lines or trimming posts for some reason you will be put back on moderate.

Following these simple rules will make life easier for folks on digest
and save money for those folks who must PAY for their Internet by the amount of time they are on line.

Thanks so much.

List Moderators

Messages in this topic (7)
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9.1. File - Other related lists
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:53 pm ((PDT))

This list is part of a group of lists run by the same moderation team. Since several of the lists are quite large we often encourage that threads be taken to some of the smaller subject specific lists so you may want to join the lists that cover issues you are interested in now.

The lists are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldrawguys/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catandkittenhealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learntoshow/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DogHealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogmentor/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawbreeder/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawPup/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RMBLobby/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canineaggression/

And if you are stuck on a particular issue that you just can't seem to work out, try this list:

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/rawissues

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BasicRaw/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalFerrets/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawVet/
For vets, vet techs and vet students only

There is also a list of lists where other raw feeding lists can be found. Many are breed specific, location specific or subject specific.

http://www.rawlearning.com

Thanks from the moderation team!

Messages in this topic (117)
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10a. Re: Gurgling tummies and fairly new to raw
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 12:53 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dmoore930" <dmoore930@...> wrote:
>
Zoey frequently has the loudest gurgling tummy for at least an hour
after eating. This morning she had her boneless meal of pork, fish oil
capsule, and thyroid pill. I can hear her from the other room. Sadie
sometimes does this too. Is this normal?
> > Diana in SE lower Michigan (any other Michiganders out there?)
>
***
Good question. I'm glad you asked.

Matisse, my 10 years old standard poodle, has all the same stuff. Some
fingers point at chicken allergy. He was in 4 weeks of an elimination
diet and eating beef, allergy symptoms including lick granuloma, red
ears, massive staph eruptions improved. Then he developed terrible
gastritis from beef - tummy gurling, squealing so loud I could hear it
from the other room. He's prone to bloat. So I can't have tummy
gurgling. Back to chicken. Tummy's fine. Allergic reactions to skin
re-emerge.

I am new to this, but find that introducing a new protein very slowly
helps. I am very interested in what the group says about this.

Pamela Picard
http://www.pet-wellness-update.com
http://aimees-law.blogspot.com/
aimees_law-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

***Sign the petition***
Exempt Sick & Senior Pets from Rabies Shots
http://www.petitiononline.com/tdsh2007/petition.html

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Gurgling tummies and fairly new to raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 1:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Diana!
Welcome to the raw side!
TYVM
It sounds as if you've done your homework!

Oh, yes, the lingo, you've got it, all right. ; )
One of these days I'm gonna type up a glossary or list of raw feeding
acronyms, mottos and terms of useage.
one of these days....

A1) Well, there's nothing actually wrong with feeding twice a day,
some dogs do better on eating this way, for various health and/or
environmental reasons. Most dogs, imo, can benefit from eating larger
portions less frequently. Even every other day feedings or gorge 'n
fast, or a mix of all the above. What a lot of people who want to
switch do, is feed a smaller and smaller meal at the time they want to
phase out, and feed a correspondingly larger meal at the time they
want to keep. Eventually, what you get is one meal a day at the time
you want to feed. Or, a token treat at the 'old' meal time and a
regular, more convenient meal time. I'd recommend that after you go to
one meal a day, you start randomizing that time, at lest by a few
hours. Feeding at one set time can lead to BV, or BBV ; )

A2) A gurgling tummy, imo, is the sign of a working digestive system!
Just be glad they don't have meat farts. : ) Raw does digest faster
then kibble or cooked foods.

Glad to hear there's no longer any poop eating at your house! I had
one Schippy, who never, unfortunately, got to eat raw, who was also
hypothyroid and was a cophroologist. (cophrogist?) Anyway, I sometimes
wonder what effect eating raw would have had on his habit. I subscribe
to the "there must be something missing in his diet" or "something he
can't metabolize from his diet", school of thought. But I do also
think that there is a strong component of habit and opportunity involved.
I'll be looking forward to reading your posts!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello, I'm Zoey, 11 year old 52 lb lab mix and my sister is Sadie, 2
> year old(30 lb very tall) Shih-Tzu/terrier(wheaton?)mix. We were
> adopted as pups from shelters. We are kinda new to raw feeding, about 2
> months, and our 'mom' has been reading the daily digests every day.
<snip>
> A couple of questions:
> 1. I have quite a schedule of my own and am having a terrible time
> trying to switch to one meal a day. Plus the girls expect a meal before
> I go to work and one when I get home. I've tried to switch the times a
> bit but really can't. Any problem with long-term twice a day
> feeding?

> 2. Zoey frequently has the loudest gurgling tummy for at least an hour
> after eating. This morning she had her boneless meal of pork, fish oil
> capsule, and thyroid pill. I can hear her from the other room. Sadie
> sometimes does this too. Is this normal?
<snip>
I think I have the lingo right.
>
> Great group. I've learned a lot and now hope to be able to join in
> conversations. Oh, yeah, and Zoey is no longer eating her poop!!! I'm
> keeping my fingers crossed. Thanks!
>
> Diana in SE lower Michigan (any other Michiganders out there?)
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Re: Veal Raw Meaty Bones
Posted by: "* shadygrove" shadygrove101@yahoo.com shadygrove101
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 1:08 pm ((PDT))

>gonna have to be more specific than that.. but by and large, beef bones, even
>veal bones are too dense for most dogs.. a bone is not meaty unless you can't
>see the bone under the meat..

These cuts are bone with chunks of meat
so this is not a meaty bone but a boney meat.
My dog is a 80lb german shepherd, and he took his time and chomped it up
before swallowing ( I watch him closely) so I thought it would be OK.

I think he did well with them, but if they are not recommended my this list then I won't buy any more.

The label did not specify what part of the veal they are from, so I assume they are some part of the leg near a joint.

When I asked the folks behind the counter for things for dogs, they pointed out the marrow bones, which I know are not good.
So I don't think they know too much about dogs and the proper bones to feed that's why I asked the question here on whether these bones were good to feed.

Thank you for your help,
Karen

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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11b. Re: Veal Raw Meaty Bones
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 1:55 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/9/2007 12:09:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
shadygrove101@yahoo.com writes:

These cuts are bone with chunks of meat
so this is not a meaty bone but a boney meat.

Karen,

there is no reason.. good or otherwise to feed naked or mostly naked bones to
any dog.

Never as a butcher about stuff for dogs.. you will get naked bones, not MEAT.
Butchers are not going to give you anything for dogs that they can make a
profit on selling for human food.

you WANT, MEAT with a bone in it.. meaty meat, and organs.. look for pork
picnic or shoulder butt or shoulder blade roasts, these are perfect examples of
meat with a bone in it. you want boneless beef briskets, shoulder clod roasts,
or entire shoulder clods. you want entire front or rear quarters of lambs or
goats. whole or half chickens, not parts..

are ya getting the idea?

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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11c. Re: Veal Raw Meaty Bones
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 2:06 pm ((PDT))

>These cuts are bone with chunks of meat so this is not a meaty bone but a boney meat.
>My dog is a 80lb german shepherd, and he took his time and chomped it up before >swallowing ( I watch him closely) so I thought it would be OK.

Hi,Karen. did your dog eat all bones without any problems?? I have seen Veal Neck bone at grocery store but never seen Veal shank(leg bone). It could have been Neck bone???

Maybe,you can ask meat guys what part of bone it is.They could answer you.

Did you add boneless meat when you fed the bone you got? If you see more bone than meat,you better off adding more meat to it to avoid constipation and to make more meaty meal.

I know some people on this list take bone away after dog stripping meat off from Beef rib or Buffalo ribs,but I don't. My dog eat it without any problems and, I am comfortable feeding it,so,I feed it and let her work on bones.

If the bone you gave was not neck and leg,then,you may need caution but,you would not know until you ask the guy.

yassy

---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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12a. Re: Hurt Puppy
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Anna!
Glad your boy wasn't more badly hurt.
Young dog's bones growth plates can be damaged from injury to them;
http://life.familyeducation.com/dogs/exercise/45655.html
http://www.geocities.com/animal_rehabilitation/Sil_Injury_Prevention_2005.pdf

So aside from keeping him from doing too much, too soon, which I'm
sure you're aware is necessary for proper healing, I have a few
suggestions.

10 Any meds can have side effects. Ones to be aware of;
"Tramadol

http://www.medicinenet.com/tramadol/article.htm

SIDE EFFECTS: Tramadol is generally well tolerated, and side effects
are usually transient. Commonly reported side effects include nausea,
constipation, dizziness, headache, drowsiness, and vomiting. Less
commonly reported side effects include itching, sweating, dry mouth,
diarrhea, rash, visual disturbances, and vertigo. Some patients who
received tramadol have reported seizures. Abrupt withdrawal of
tramadol may result in anxiety, sweating, insomnia, rigors, pain,
nausea, diarrhea, tremors, and hallucinations."
anti inflammatories
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/191605.htm

"Prednisone
http://www.wedgewoodpharmacy.com/monographs/prednisone.asp
Side Effects

â¢ Systemic side effects to corticosteroids are generally dependent on
dose and duration of treatment. Short-term use of prednisone is
unlikely to cause adverse effects. Adverse effects are more common in
animals on immunosuppressive doses.

â¢ Side effects seen in dogs include polyuria, polydipsia, polyphagia,
poor haircoat, GI disturbance, diarrhea, vomiting, weight gain, GI
ulceration, pancreatitis, lipidemia, elevated liver enzymes, diabetes
mellitus, muscle wasting, and possible behavioral changes.

â¢ Polyuria, polydipsia, polyphagia may be seen in dogs even on
short-term therapy.

â¢ Although cats are less likely to develop side effects than dogs,
occasionally polyuria, polydipsia, polyphagia, weight gain, GI
disturbances and behavioral changes occur.

â¢ Corticosteroids can cause or worsen gastric ulcers."

2) With crate rest prescribed, or at least restricted activity, your
pup will may need to eat less temporarily. Reducing the amount of his
food, without restricting the main components; meat, fat, bone and
organs is key.
You might consider feeding less often; once or twice a day, to provide
him with large enough meals to engage his boredom and need for
activity. Chewies, Bully sticks or stuffed, frozen Kongs can help
offer chewing/eating activity, too. I freeze several chicken feet at a
time in a shallow container of water to provide some fun and chewing
activity for my dog. Feeding partially frozen meals can offer a little
more chewing activity also.

3) Stress can cause loose stools, but true diarrhea is a side effect
of disease, imo. Loose, runny or sloppy stools can result from new
foods, too much food at one time, too much new foods, newly introduced
proteins, boneless meals, organs, etc. Loose poops are not necessarily
a bad thing.

4) Constipation and gut irritation can result from pain meds and anti
inflammatories - a little judicious feeding of organ, maybe cutting
back a bit on bone temporarily, in the one case and dosing with some
Slippery Elm Bark Powder in the other case can help. A increase in
bone and a decrease in activity, along with pain meds, sounds like a
recipe for constipation.

" SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb that
soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is "used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis."
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in 1/2 ounce
meatballs, for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with
each meal. Or, fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or
two) offer plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout
the day. Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after,
gradually increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You
will often see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of
the way it soothes the digestive system, and the dog's body will do
the same sometimes even without SEBP."

5) IMO, dry skin cannot be helped by feeding sardines. They are a good
protein source, and offer variety. Eggs are a good source of protein,
but can cause loose stools, too. Feeding a good quality Salmon or Fish
Body oil is a much better way of resolving dry skin and 'itchy' problems.

http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_oil/salmon_oil.html

6) If your pup has 'skin allergies', or sensitivities at this young
age, I'd look to eliminating chemicals and additives from his foods,
supps and environments.

TC and let us know how you and Khan progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello, all.
>
> I've been feeding Khan (my soon to be 6 mo old brown Doberman
> Pinscher) raw since shortly after I got him at 10 weeks. <snip>
> Saturday, he had a fall while we were hiking about 12 noon and hurt
> his rear left leg. <snip>
He slid into a gully
> about 15 feet at one of our state parks. Xray's so far are negative;
> radiologist will review a shadow we think is inflammation this coming
> Wednesday.
<snip>
> We fed him three chicken boneless, skinless breasts shortly after we
> got home and the morphine wore off. <snip>
He will
> be on an anti-inflammatory and tramadol for pain for about five days.
>
> Is there any special feeding I should be doing? He's had nothing but
> soft stool since the injury.
<snip>
But, any dietary advice from the
> experienced would be appreciated.
<snip>
> Thanks, guys,
> Anna
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. Re: Hi, new here, need help with raw feeding my siberian huskies
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 2:28 pm ((PDT))

A prey model raw diet includes bone which would have provided plenty of
calcium for a growing pup. Dogs require meat (and lots of it), a little
edible bone and some organs. No purees of fruits and sprouts are necessary.

You want to feed approximately 2-3% of expected or ideal adult weight per
day....80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organs. You don't need a specialist store
or poultry necks...stick with whole chickens, turkey and rabbit...and then
add meaty meals (large roasts of pork, goat, beef, etc. ).

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mrskheath" <mrskheath@yahoo.co.uk>

Hi, I have always used a raw minced meat with a kibble to feed my
Siberian Husky (the vet recommended the kibble as he needed calcium),
but he is growing bigger now and needs to get his teeth stuck into
something (he's 18 months).

Messages in this topic (4)
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14a. Re: Intro with questions
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 2:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Mona!
In a word; Yes! ^_^

What you need to do, is adjust your mindset a bit. People are brain
washed to feed XX amount of kibble or canned, as per what the
"experts" have put on the charts on the bags/cans!

The "chart" is inside your pup. ; )

Watch him, get used to really seeing how he looks as he grows. Put
your hands on him when you are petting or grooming him. Feel the way
his ribs are when he is lookin' good. Ditto for his backbone and
hipbones. Being able to feel a bit of bone without a pad of flesh over
it is how he should look. Being a pup, he will probably tend to get a
bit roly, then grow up a little and thin out. This is normal. But, the
"puppy uglies" where pups have enormous growth spurts and are all
ungainly and out of proportion for months are usually not the what you
get when you feed raw. Pups on raw generally grow at a slower, more
controlled rate. They get where they are supposed to be by the time
they reach maturity, they just don't pack on the pounds or have that
carb diet puffiness you see with kibble fed pups.

Feed him as you are for a week or two, get used to how your pup looks
and how he is growing. Then, reevaluate and review.

byw, I quote the guidelines for calculating how much to feed, because
new-to-raw peeps want/need to have a concrete number to start with.
I weighed my dogs, and their food, for about a week when I started
raw. ; ) Too much trouble, and not necessary, once you have the
concepts and get comfortable letting your dog's condition tell you
what you need to know. A few ounces, or a pound too much, or too
little here or there, it all balances out over time. : )

Trust yourself. And breathe.

Oh, I know about the spots on the tongue thingy as I own Newfs. Some
breeder's lines have it, some don't. I was intrigued by the curiosity
of it, so had done some casual research about it in other breeds also
some years ago.

http://dogs.thefuntimesguide.com/2007/04/retriever_dog_black_tongue.php
http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/BlackTongueDebate.htm

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Thanks for your reply and I stand corrected about the tongue thing, I
> just looked it up, so basically she could be part anything lol!
>
> I'm still trying to figure out how much to feed her, I'm going with a
> very conservative estimate of 50# adult weight right now so I'm
> thinking 1 - 1.5 lbs of chicken a day for now and we'll see how she
> does. That works out roughly to 2 chicken thighs a day + the little
> bit that the older dog leaves over since he's much smaller. Do you
> think this is a good starting point?
>
> Mona
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Mona!
> > Welcome to the raw side! ^_^
> >
> > My response will be even longer. ; )
> >
> > btw, some other pure bred dogs have black spots on their tongues, so
> > Bella doesn't necessarily have to be part Chow.
> >
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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15a. A Little Freaked Out
Posted by: "Roxane" roxanegraham@yahoo.com roxanegraham
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 2:59 pm ((PDT))

I am just starting my pug on raw. I gave him part of a chicken wing for
his bone. I cut the wing at the joint so he got about a 3 inch piece.
He Swallowed it whole, should I worry about this? Roxane

Messages in this topic (2)
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15b. Re: A Little Freaked Out
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 3:11 pm ((PDT))

You most likely don't have anything to worry about, but you definitely want
to feed larger and meatier than wings!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Roxane" <roxanegraham@yahoo.com>

I am just starting my pug on raw. I gave him part of a chicken wing for
his bone. I cut the wing at the joint so he got about a 3 inch piece.
He Swallowed it whole, should I worry about this? Roxane

Messages in this topic (2)
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16a. Re: Poop question
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 3:22 pm ((PDT))

Hi, uh, Hi!
You and your dog are the best judges of what are OK poops,
and what aren't. If she isn't having any trouble 'going', then its OK
by me, too. ; )

Th reason raw fed dogs have smaller, 'better' poops are because raw is
species appropriate. That means that what goes in is more
bioavailable, its easier to digest and the dog gets more nutrients
from what he eats, so there is less waste than from kibble or cooked.

She may indeed be able to digest and absorb more nutrients since
adjusting to eating raw.

Some dogs get softer or looser stools from eating boneless meals, some
from organs, some from different proteins. Some dogs just keep on
keeping on, no matter what they eat. While definitely not a 17lb
terrier, my Bea's poops are pretty much the same no matter what she
eats, bone or no bone, organs or no organs. : )

Adding organs is always OK! Just remember, liver shouldn't be more
than 5% of the total diet. Heart, gizzards and tongue are fed as
meatymeat.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Oh the joys of having such small stools! I am just making sure this
> isn't too small and that I am not just feeding too much bone.
<snip>
> I have added organs to see if her stools would be different and they
> are still pebble like. Is this ok? Thanks!
>

Messages in this topic (13)
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17a. Re: 5 months in checkup/organs
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 3:40 pm ((PDT))

Sounds pretty good. I wouldn't worry if you can't find anything else,
but keep your eyes open for hearts, tongue, or spleen (sometimes
called "melts"), especially at Asian markets, but I can also get beef
heart and tongue at other grocery stores. If you want to feed any
heads or whole fish, you'd get eyeballs and other goodies that way.
There are online sources of all kinds of stuff too (www.prey4pets.com

is one).

Laurie

Messages in this topic (4)
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Feed Pets Raw Food

Sunday, September 9, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12020

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