[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12012

There are 26 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Is catfish OK to give?
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Is catfish OK to give?
From: costrowski75
1c. Re: Is catfish OK to give?
From: Yasuko herron

2a. Re: Kitty With Intestinal Blockage?
From: Bailes2
2b. Re: Kitty With Intestinal Blockage?
From: helpshelteranimals

3a. Re: Old subject, new dog
From: Andrea

4a. Re: Rabbit.... is it just me??
From: Andrea
4b. Re: Rabbit.... is it just me??
From: wandaful
4c. Re: Rabbit.... is it just me??
From: costrowski75
4d. Re: Rabbit.... is it just me??
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: How do you feed a sick dog?
From: Marion

6a. Re: Louie is getting better....I think
From: mandajenwalker
6b. Re: Louie is getting better....I think
From: ginny wilken

7a. Rookie Questions
From: krystal_brr
7b. Re: Rookie Questions
From: costrowski75

8. 5 months in checkup/organs
From: flyinheller

9a. Re: My first raw shopping trip.....
From: saucy_senorita2003

10a. Re: It won't hurt them if
From: Tina Berry

11a. Re: Salmonella
From: Tina Berry

12a. Does anyone ever feed squirrel?
From: steph.sorensen
12b. Re: Does anyone ever feed squirrel?
From: S.R. Sudekum
12c. Re: Does anyone ever feed squirrel?
From: k9dine

13. COPROPHAGY
From: Steve Gomes

14a. Chicken wings vs other parts??
From: Steve Gomes
14b. Re: Chicken wings vs other parts??
From: costrowski75

15. New to this: how much to feed to start?
From: Jenny

Messages
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1a. Re: Is catfish OK to give?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 6:32 am ((PDT))

Catfish is fine if your dogs will eat it. I tried it with Geiger and
my cats and it was a very big no go. While catfish doesn't have much
in the way of O3's, it is still a good source for protein variety.
Even if you were feeding wild catfish (I suspect most catfish is farm
raised), you won't be feeding it all the time so I wouldn't worry too
much about toxins it might have.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mz_boomer2" <mz_boomer2@...> wrote:
>
> I have been seeing some pretty good deals on catfish lately and I
> was just wondering if that was ok to give my 40 lb 2yo lab mixes? I
> have heard that since catfish are "bottom feeders" ...they ingest
> alot of the crud of pollutants and excrement that settles on the
> bottom floor of the water.

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Is catfish OK to give?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 9:40 am ((PDT))

"mz_boomer2" <mz_boomer2@...> wrote:
>
> I have been seeing some pretty good deals on catfish lately and I was
> just wondering if that was ok to give my 40 lb 2yo lab mixes? I have
> heard that since catfish are "bottom feeders" ...they ingest alot of
> the crud of pollutants and excrement that settles on the bottom floor
> of the water.
*****
Wild catfish in a wild environment will offer higher quality, more
species appropriate nutrition than farmed catfish (just as the wild
version of any prey offers higher quality, more species appropriate
nutrition). Unless the catfish is labeled otherwise (and I am quite
sure it won't be) what you see is farmed catfish that was raised on
catfish chow. The fish will not have been bottom feeding on the
material you describe.

It will be "safe" to feed as long as you take into consideration the
processed food it ate and the meds it was given and whatever toxins
polluted the ponds it lived in, and it is considered a source of easily
digested protein. I consider it in the same catagory as farmed salmon:
no worse than feedlot livestock and factory poultry and no better.

I don't feed catfish. I do feed farmed salmon and other products of
industrialized farming. The extent to which I can avoid these foods I
do but when I can't I just keep on keepin' on.

Find out all you can about what you need to find out about in order to
make an informed decision.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: Is catfish OK to give?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 10:38 am ((PDT))

>I have been seeing some pretty good deals on catfish lately and I was

> just wondering if that was ok to give my 40 lb 2yo lab mixes?

Hi. I have a story to tell you about catfish. I was told that if you cut off barb that has,it is ok to feed,so,I bought it just half pound to see how palette takes it.

I usually give sample when I do bagging,and I sliced a bit from cat fish (since it will be introduction phase,I was going to feed small amount of it along with something she already being good on),and tried giving her.

Shesniffed it very good,and licked it,and looked at me, and she threw her body on to piece of fish!! She was rolling on pieceof catfish with huuugesmile on her face with delight.

I tried it with other meat as meal but all she did was same.

She accept it with open arms to roll on it,but not open arms for actually eating it.

so,catfish is out from her fish list.

This is just Palette but,you may want to consider buying small and see how your dogs do.

yassy

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Kitty With Intestinal Blockage?
Posted by: "Bailes2" gingerb@comporium.net ginnie4girls
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 6:34 am ((PDT))

Has she been wormed? I think I'd see how she felt this morning about
eating.

Ginger

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: Kitty With Intestinal Blockage?
Posted by: "helpshelteranimals" helpshelteranimals@yahoo.com helpshelteranimals
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 7:41 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Bailes2 <gingerb@...> wrote:
>
> Has she been wormed? I think I'd see how she felt this morning about
> eating.

> Ginger
**************

Hasn't been wormed, there have been no worms in her poo. I found some
poo this morning on her bottom and found some kitten poo still semi
fresh in the litter box. It seemed a little hairy and she threw up a
hairball about 5 days ago. This morning her belly was back to normal
but as soon as she ate she was bulgy again. Since I know the bulges
will down I am not as worried as I was last night but she has a 3:45
vet appt today. If she is pooping it's not blockage right??? Please
say yes!! I fed her some pork pieces not much but she still
buldged...and they are irregular buldges like you can feel the chunks
of meat in her stomach. Scary!

AG& Ruffian

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Old subject, new dog
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 6:34 am ((PDT))

During the transition to raw a little bright red blood in the stool
isn't uncommon. It just means that the lower bowel was irritated. Are
you feeding whole chickens or just a specific part? You might have too
much bone or too much food. Depending on how small the bit of liver
was, it might have caused the loose stools as well. It isn't that
puppies are too young for organ meats, you just have to introduce it
slowly for some dogs.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mob1043" <ynotbeastar@...> wrote:

> Tonight we noticed the two little ones have had diarrhea and the
> silky has some blood mixed in. She seems energetic and normal...I
> have been feeding strictly chicken w/ bone according to weight
> recommendations.
> Why do you think the bloody stool? Could this have anything to do
> with eating small bit of chicken liver and are pups to young for
> organ meats?

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Rabbit.... is it just me??
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 6:35 am ((PDT))

Ideally that would be the best way to feed rabbit, but some dogs just
don't "do" furry creatures. While Geiger *loves* skinned and dressed
rabbit he won't touch a whole one that still has fur.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "wandaful" <rondarosa@...> wrote:
>
> I keep getting more confused, not less. I have been picturing just
tossing a dog the whole rabbit....obviously killed, but not dressed.
> wanda

Messages in this topic (9)
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4b. Re: Rabbit.... is it just me??
Posted by: "wandaful" rondarosa@ftcnet.net rondaros
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 8:41 am ((PDT))

ooops, sorry. I guess I was asking a question....if you have whole carcasses like that, do you have to dress them if you are talking about feeding a larger (75lb) dog.
wanda
----- Original Message -----

: Hi Wanda,
:
: Not sure if you're answering Terri's question or if you have a question
: yourself. Want to clarify?
:
: Laurie

Messages in this topic (9)
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4c. Re: Rabbit.... is it just me??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 9:16 am ((PDT))

"wandaful" <rondarosa@...> wrote:
>
> I keep getting more confused, not less. I have been picturing just
tossing a dog the whole rabbit....obviously killed, but not dressed.
*****
IMO this is the perfect way to feed rabbit. However, although I'm fine
with it and one of my dogs is fine with it, the other dogs ain't buying
the concept at all. And of course there are people for whom the notion
is intolerable.

Like the commercial says, we don't live anywhere near Perfect.

If you can feed your dogs whole rabbit, by all means do so! And feed
whole poultry and and even whole ruminants if it makes sense to your
dogs, your budget, your lifestyle. And if you can't feed whole, feed
big body parts. And if you can't feed big body parts, it's not the end
of the world.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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4d. Re: Rabbit.... is it just me??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 10:08 am ((PDT))

"wandaful" <rondarosa@...> wrote:
>
> ooops, sorry. I guess I was asking a question....if you have whole
carcasses like that, do you have to dress them if you are talking about
feeding a larger (75lb) dog.
*****
No. You don't HAVE to dress them for any dog, if the dog is willing.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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5a. Re: How do you feed a sick dog?
Posted by: "Marion" mbldesigns@yahoo.com mbldesigns
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 6:56 am ((PDT))

I know. This is so very frustrating. He does know how to play us but
usually his hunger wins out after a few meals without eating and we
win. But this is ridiculous. He acts normal, in that he just lays
there and moves around to a cooler spot on the floor. He is still
getting up to drink water. He's deaf, so I have to pet his head or
jump on the floor if he's really asleep to get him to get up and go
outside. He's still peeing. He hasn't pooped since Wed evening when it
was still diarrhea. He keeps looking at me expectantly whenever he
sees me, I can tell he's hungry, but it's almost like everything turns
his stomach. You know when you have the stomach flu how you just don't
want certain foods and some turn your stomach.

I'll be calling the vet in a few minutes, yeah.

THanks for everything, you are really great. Bernie is just stubborn
Marion

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> I really don't know if he is doing this because he is sick...or if
he's
> waiting for you to fuss over him and offer something better. Only you
can
> see just how ill this dog is or whether he is playing you.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (11)
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6a. Re: Louie is getting better....I think
Posted by: "mandajenwalker" walker1031@chartermi.net mandajenwalker
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

Thanks again everyone. I started him on them last night....let's keep
our fingers crossed that I see an improvement in the near future.
Mandy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Sep 6, 2007, at 1:06 PM, mandajenwalker wrote:
>
> > I haven't put him on the meds that she gave me yet. I don't know if
> > that is the right thing to do or not. I don't want the meds to
> > interfere with my observation of the raw diet.....is that the right
> > thing to do? Should I be giving him the meds to? Or is the raw diet
> > going to help with his problem? Just not sure.
> > Please let me know,
> > Thanks,
> > Mandy
> >
>
>
> Mandy, he needs those meds to get his function back to normal. The
> diet will not restore a broken thyroid gland, and poor diet did not
> cause it either. He will do better in every respect when his
> metabolism is brought back up to speed.
>
> Don't think of thyroid replacement as a med; it's just a substance
> the body needs that it is not making for itself in adequate amounts
> any more.
>
> ginny and Tomo
>
>
> All stunts performed without a net!
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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6b. Re: Louie is getting better....I think
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 10:32 am ((PDT))

On Sep 7, 2007, at 7:05 AM, mandajenwalker wrote:

> Thanks again everyone. I started him on them last night....let's keep
> our fingers crossed that I see an improvement in the near future.
> Mandy

It WILL take several weeks to see any difference, and months to get
him on a even keel where you can retest his levels. This is a long-
term adjustment, so be patient.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (8)
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7a. Rookie Questions
Posted by: "krystal_brr" rkbarr@hughes.net krystal_brr
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 8:28 am ((PDT))

I am just starting to feed raw and obviously have some questions.

If I feed mostly venison, since we have that in abundance, will I need
to add some kind of fat to the diet, since venison is so lean?

Are wild game birds close enough to chicken? The wild bird bones seem
alot harder. Are they OK to start with?

I have Rhodesian Ridgebacks (2).

Thank you
Krystal

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Rookie Questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 10:06 am ((PDT))

"krystal_brr" <rkbarr@...> wrote:
> If I feed mostly venison, since we have that in abundance, will I
need
> to add some kind of fat to the diet, since venison is so lean?
*****
I have fed venison that was virtually fatfree and I have fed venison
that carried a lot of back fat. I think wolves in a healthy,
sustainable wild environment would have ample opportunity to eat
fatty meat as well as lean. So if your primary source of meat is
consistently lean, I recommend you either add fat to the meals or
rotate the lean venison with fattier meats. Your dogs need fat; it
is not an option, it is basic equipment.

> Are wild game birds close enough to chicken? The wild bird bones
seem
> alot harder. Are they OK to start with?
*****
Wild game birds will always be more appropriate than factory
chicken. Wild bones are likely to be harder because the wild bird
actually used them to run and fly and eat bugs and do silly bird
things. Also, wild fowl will probably be older than domestic
chickens processed at six weeks or so.

If I were in your enviable situation, I would feed my dogs wild game
and let them decide what bones were edible and what bones weren't
worth it. Those of us to rely on domestic livestock are accustomed
to a softer, easier menu but there's nothing that says a softer,
easier menu is better. If you would feel more comfortable starting
with commercial chicken, by all means go for it. You can transition
your dogs (and yourself!) to wild as it seems proper to do so.
Chris O

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8. 5 months in checkup/organs
Posted by: "flyinheller" lheller@bellsouth.net flyinheller
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 8:30 am ((PDT))

Everything is going great on raw but just wanted to make sure I'm
giving enough variety when it comes to organs specifically. Spenser is
getting beef or pork liver, beef or pork kidney, and occasionally green
tripe. I haven't found much else at the stores. Is that sufficient
organ variety?

Thanks,

Lisa

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: My first raw shopping trip.....
Posted by: "saucy_senorita2003" saucy_senorita2003@yahoo.com saucy_senorita2003
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 8:31 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Bailes2 <gingerb@...> wrote:
>
> Well our first day went well. Bandit (pyr pup) ate 4 chicken leg
> quarters of his own and then stole another from the other dog who is
turning up his nose at raw. The only thing is he is being VERY
aggressive with the other dogs during and right after I feed them. He
normally eats out of the bowl with the little dog and last night I was
worried he was going to hurt him. >
> Ginger
>
Ginger - I have this same issue with my year old Danes. I have to
separate them when feeding them Raw and they've been on Raw for 3
months now. Sometimes they're more aggressive with each other than
other times, so the best thing would be to separate Bandit until he
learns his manners. I also make sure as soon as they are done eating,
any "remnants" of their meals are cleaned up and put away right away.
They both have their own "feeding area" which is well supervised by me.
Good Luck!
Lynda & The Twin Danes (Jack & Jill)

Messages in this topic (5)
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10a. Re: It won't hurt them if
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT))

"I can get beef scraps... meat... bones( it's where I get all my beef bones
from... it's free.. family knows the butcher).... but I could also get
things like the heart, and all the things they don't use... which is a lot
of of the cows, pigs... everything they use... I was wondering. It wouldn't
hurt for them to get none human grade right? Right now there beef is in
human cuts...."

Not at all - major score for your fur babies!!!! Don't feed too much organ
tho, it's too rich, and heart is considered a muscle and can be fed daily,
but it can be a little rich for some dogs in the beginning. Take eveything
you can get from your butcher.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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11a. Re: Salmonella
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT))

"When you feed raw chicken, do you have to worry about salmonella?"

No ~ I lay down a sheet or old towel I can pick up an wash since they all
eat in the kitchen.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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12a. Does anyone ever feed squirrel?
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 9:04 am ((PDT))

I am just racking my brain to try to exercise all of my free meat
options, and we keep shooting squirrels off of our back deck that are
feasting on our suet and bird seed. Would these fresh kills be okay
for the dogs?

My husband will be weirded out, but I don't mind fixing them up for
the girls if it would be good for them.

-Steph
Scarlet (venison is the BOMB!)
Lucy (I second that!)
Minkey (still a ki**le kitty for now)

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12b. Re: Does anyone ever feed squirrel?
Posted by: "S.R. Sudekum" ssudekum@centurytel.net fassue
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

steph.sorensen wrote:
> I am just racking my brain to try to exercise all of my free meat
> options, and we keep shooting squirrels off of our back deck that are
> feasting on our suet and bird seed. Would these fresh kills be okay
> for the dogs?

I don't intentionally feed my dogs squirrels, but sometimes the
Dalmatian corners one in the garage and the Corgi finishes it off, and
no harm done so far, LOL!

Sue in Michigan

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12c. Re: Does anyone ever feed squirrel?
Posted by: "k9dine" k9dine@yahoo.com k9dine
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

I have never done so, but I lament that my in-laws don't have any pest
squirrels or rabbits that they could shoot for me on their farm. It
sounds like a great source of cheap food if you're killing them
anyway! (We live in town and while shooting the rabbits that insist on
eating my peas to the ground every year sounds great, the neighbors
would NOT be impressed.)

I say go for it!

amanda

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13. COPROPHAGY
Posted by: "Steve Gomes" gomes@alamedanet.net stvgomes
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 9:18 am ((PDT))

Has anyone noticed if raw feeding effects changes in a dog with
coprophagy?

Thanks.

Steve

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14a. Chicken wings vs other parts??
Posted by: "Steve Gomes" gomes@alamedanet.net stvgomes
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

Would the higher bone to meat ratio offered by wings make it a better
whole food than other chicken parts?

Thanks.

Steve

Messages in this topic (2)
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14b. Re: Chicken wings vs other parts??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 10:38 am ((PDT))

"Steve Gomes" <gomes@...> wrote:
>
> Would the higher bone to meat ratio offered by wings make it a better
> whole food than other chicken parts?
*****
I think you have this backwards.
Because chicken wings have a higher bone to meat ratio, they are not as
good a whole food as other chicken parts. Well, except maybe for
necks, which are easily as inappropriate as wings.

For all dogs wings are not meaty enough; for all but the smallest dogs
and cats wings are also too small.

A whole, processed, commercially-raised chicken is somewhat more than
25% bone (edible) on a good day: A good raw diet needs include little
more than 10% bone (edible). A wing on a good day is 46% edible bone!

If you believe your dog is small enough to feed a wing to, add meat to
the meal AND make sure you feed plenty of boneless meals as well.

In most cases a wing/breast combination, or a wing/shoulder
combination, of a half or even whole bird will be a better use of
resources. Meaty bones the dog has to work through and grapple with
offer exercise, dental hygiene, mental hygiene and entertainment as
well as nutrition.
Chris O

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15. New to this: how much to feed to start?
Posted by: "Jenny" jguttormson@austin.rr.com lexx827
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

I am new to raw feeding and want to get my 7 yr old bassett hound
started on it. He's 67 lbs, not overweight, and is active for a
bassett hound. I read that a good baseline is to feed them 2-3% of body
weight daily. That comes out to about 1.6lbs a day. To all of you
experts out there, does this sound like a good place to start?

Messages in this topic (1)
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