[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12009

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Irritable Bowel Syndrome
From: Roxane
1b. It won't hurt them if
From: Kaitlin Fraser

2. raw food and weight gain in puppy
From: vickies_28

3a. Re: Just switched over tonight
From: wilsonfontaine
3b. Re: Just switched over tonight
From: wilsonfontaine

4a. Re: chicken feet--gulping & glucosamine
From: jmwise80
4b. Re: chicken feet--gulping & glucosamine
From: Yasuko herron

5a. Re: Bone question
From: Rhonda
5b. Re: Bone question
From: Rhonda
5c. Re: Bone question
From: Yasuko herron
5d. Re: Bone question
From: Yasuko herron

6a. Re: Seizures and raw feeding-please help
From: Barb
6b. Re: Seizures and raw feeding-please help
From: Rachael
6c. Re: Seizures and raw feeding-please help
From: Eileen Dover

7a. Re: Louie is getting better....I think
From: mandajenwalker

8a. Salmonella
From: Roxane
8b. Re: Salmonella
From: Yasuko herron
8c. Re: Salmonella
From: Sandee Lee

9a. Source for Alligator Meat?
From: Jennie Stone-Gillihan
9b. Re: Source for Alligator Meat?
From: steph.sorensen

10a. Re: How do you feed a sick dog?
From: Marion
10b. Re: How do you feed a sick dog?
From: Marion

11a. Re: BIG argument with a "holistic" vet!
From: Ivette Casiano
11b. Re: BIG argument with a "holistic" vet!
From: coriowen

12. Rabbit.... is it just me??
From: Terri Leist

Messages
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1a. Irritable Bowel Syndrome
Posted by: "Roxane" roxanegraham@yahoo.com roxanegraham
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 5:50 pm ((PDT))

Has anyone here done the raw diet for a dog with irritable bowel
syndrome? If so did it help.

Roxane

Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. It won't hurt them if
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 6:16 pm ((PDT))

I can get beef scraps... meat... bones( it's where I get all my beef bones
from... it's free.. family knows the butcher).... but I could also get
things like the heart, and all the things they don't use... which is a lot
of of the cows, pigs... everything they use... I was wondering. It wouldn't
hurt for them to get none human grade right? Right now there beef is in
human cuts....

Kaitlin Fraser
Prince SJA therapy dog, CGN
Jester SJA therapy dog CGN
Wenlisa's Command Performance HIC, CKC PTd "Malo" A work of art in
progress.( Raw Fed, )
Sheep's Kin Unusually Unusaul Kiska- Another work of art in even more
progress.( Raw fed)

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

_________________________________________________________________
Enter to win a night a VIP night out at TIFF

http://redcarpet.sympatico.msn.ca/

Messages in this topic (2)
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2. raw food and weight gain in puppy
Posted by: "vickies_28" vickies_28@yahoo.com vickies_28
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 5:50 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
My puppy has been on raw for 3 weeks. Overall, doing pretty good with
some minor issues (no biggy). I weigh him every other week and noticed
that he gained 5 lbs since we got him 3 weeks ago. He was VERY skinny,
bones...I think he hasn't been eating much at the breeder's because all
she fed is kibble and he stragiht refuses to eat it (I tried for 3
days, when we just got him) Now he doesn't look too skinny as before,
kindda had rounded up a bit, I can fell his ribs and he doesn't look
fat to me at all. I've been feeding about 3% of his adult weight.

Anyway, my question is, what is the normal weight gain for a puppy? He
is 6 mo old now, basset hound male. We expect him to be around 65lbs
when fully grown.

Thanks
Vickie

Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Re: Just switched over tonight
Posted by: "wilsonfontaine" wilsonfontaine@yahoo.com wilsonfontaine
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 5:51 pm ((PDT))

Thank you Christy I'm so relieved to hear your comment. I will get her screened asap.
THANKS!
wilson
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mikkeny" <mikken@...> wrote:
>
> Christy,
>
> I'm replying off list because I have some off topic information for
> you.
>
> First of all, yes, raw is absolutely the best for a seizure dog! So
> many dogs are triggered by grains, preservatives, artificial
> flavors/colors, etc. that's in dog foods that you pretty much HAVE
> to switch to raw!
>
> Secondly, while your girl is young, hypothyroidism is still a
> possibility, so I want you to consider getting her tested with a
> full six panel (http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/HEMOPET.HTM). Every
> seizure dog should be screened for hypothyroidism, IMO. If a dog is
> seizing because of hypothyroidism and you can raise thyroid levels
> with a simple (cheap, safe) thyroid hormone supplement, isn't it
> better to address the cause (hypothyroidism) than just he symptoms
> (pheno and all for the seizures that may be reduced or stop once the
> thyroid is back in range)?
>
> Thirdly, check out this site -
>
> http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/site_map.htm
>
> Just ignore the diet advice. So many of us completely respect Dr.
> Dodds' work with thyroid and epilepsy, but we agree that she drops
> the ball when it comes to diet. Hey, can't be brilliant in
> everything, right?
>
> But be sure to check out the "If I knew then what I know now"
> section and the one about low thyroid and seizures. Also the "Ice
> pack to stop a seizure" may be helpful to you.
>
> Best of luck with you and your rescue girl! Oh - and no more
> vaccines for her ever, ok? The vaccine/seizure connection is all
> too strong...
>
> Casey
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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3b. Re: Just switched over tonight
Posted by: "wilsonfontaine" wilsonfontaine@yahoo.com wilsonfontaine
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Casey!
Wilson

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mikkeny" <mikken@...> wrote:
>
> Christy,
>
> I'm replying off list because I have some off topic information for
> you.
>
> First of all, yes, raw is absolutely the best for a seizure dog! So
> many dogs are triggered by grains, preservatives, artificial
> flavors/colors, etc. that's in dog foods that you pretty much HAVE
> to switch to raw!
>
> Secondly, while your girl is young, hypothyroidism is still a
> possibility, so I want you to consider getting her tested with a
> full six panel (http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/HEMOPET.HTM). Every
> seizure dog should be screened for hypothyroidism, IMO. If a dog is
> seizing because of hypothyroidism and you can raise thyroid levels
> with a simple (cheap, safe) thyroid hormone supplement, isn't it
> better to address the cause (hypothyroidism) than just he symptoms
> (pheno and all for the seizures that may be reduced or stop once the
> thyroid is back in range)?
>
> Thirdly, check out this site -
>
> http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/site_map.htm
>
> Just ignore the diet advice. So many of us completely respect Dr.
> Dodds' work with thyroid and epilepsy, but we agree that she drops
> the ball when it comes to diet. Hey, can't be brilliant in
> everything, right?
>
> But be sure to check out the "If I knew then what I know now"
> section and the one about low thyroid and seizures. Also the "Ice
> pack to stop a seizure" may be helpful to you.
>
> Best of luck with you and your rescue girl! Oh - and no more
> vaccines for her ever, ok? The vaccine/seizure connection is all
> too strong...
>
> Casey
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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4a. Re: chicken feet--gulping & glucosamine
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 5:51 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth" <rainsou1@...> wrote:

Beef trachea is pure
> cartilage(glucosamine.)

I was under the impression that beef trachea was used for
chondroitin. What I have found said that glucosamine was derived
from chitin, the outer shells from crab and lobsters. With that
said, wouldn't you have to consume quite a bit of shells to derive
any significant amount of glucosamine. Here is one link I found when
I googled "dietary sources of glucosamine".

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/glucosamine-000306.htm#Dietary%
20Sources

Correct me if I'm wrong, please. I'm still learning and may have
researched wrong. Wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last.

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (8)
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4b. Re: chicken feet--gulping & glucosamine
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

>A good source of trachea is GreenTripe.com.

Hi,erica.Thanks for your info.Unfortunately,they arein CA,and I live in VA,so,quite expensive for shipping.I may see about waiting to cold months like Feb and see if the cost would drop down but,I donno...

How did you feed treachea?With lots of meat or cut with cleaver into small chunks andfed astreats or something? Or you just got Tripe with treachea in it??

thanks,

yassy

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

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Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Re: Bone question
Posted by: "Rhonda" rhonda18@gmail.com rhondabrabbin
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 5:51 pm ((PDT))

I am sorry what are large weight bearing bones?

Rhonda

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:

Messages in this topic (17)
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5b. Re: Bone question
Posted by: "Rhonda" rhonda18@gmail.com rhondabrabbin
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

I worked through the raw issues until I hit a brick wall, if I give her
the meat with the bones she cannot digest the bones because of her EPI
and if I give her meat without the bones she will not get what she is
supposed to get from the bones. Plus a whole list of other issues.

She is doing really well on what she is on now, I have her on 80% grain
free organic kibble [Castor and Pollux] and I mix it with Spot Stew
[human grade meats and ingredients]

Rhonda

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Those are two compelling reasons to work through the raw issues and
get that
> girl off foods that are going to hasten the spread of these diseases.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "Rhonda" <rhonda18@...>
>
> Sorry I forgot to mention that I am not feeding Raw as I tried it and
> had too many complications, she is Diabetic and has EPI and she can't
> have the chicken bones as they are too hard to digest and other
issues.
>

Messages in this topic (17)
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5c. Re: Bone question
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 6:18 pm ((PDT))

>I worked through the raw issues until I hit a brick wall, if I give her the meat with >the bones she cannot digest the bones because of her EPI

Hi. Go to http://www.dogaware.com/specific.html and scroll down to SIBO and EPI and you find more info.

Just so you know that people who does homecook cannot use bone because bone gets cooked up,but those people are using ground Egg shell as calcium source.You maybeable to give shell instead of bone if thedog having hard time for bone itself,maybe?

yassy

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

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Messages in this topic (17)
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5d. Re: Bone question
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 6:25 pm ((PDT))

>I am sorry what are large weight bearing bones?

Hi. Leg bone like feumer or knockle bone or marrow bone;very thick densed bone from big animals.

I personally don't feed leg bone from 4 legged animals except pork.

yassy

---------------------------------
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

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Messages in this topic (17)
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6a. Re: Seizures and raw feeding-please help
Posted by: "Barb" behaven1@telus.net behavensnikko
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

We have a 13 & 1/2 year old Sheltie that has been Raw fed,
supplemented with L-taurine, & mega Amino Acid Tabs & she seizures
mildly once every 6 months+/-Never been on any drugs & has not been
vacc'd since 8 weeks of age& not my doing!She is great on Raw!
Cheers/Barb
Behaven Shelties
Raw fed/Vaccine Free X 23+ years
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "wilsonfontaine"
<wilsonfontaine@...> wrote:
>
> ***EDITED BY MODERATOR. TRIM YOUR MESSAGES OR RISK DELETION.***
>
>
> Hi Sandee,
>
> Thanks for your quick reply. Here is a link to the page I read
warning against raw feeding
> for epileptic dogs.http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/
> Cautions_Raw_Food.htm
> I really want to continue feeding her Raw, I'm just looking for any
advise from anyone that
> has a dog that has seizures and is OK on the raw food.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Wilson
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@> wrote:
> >
> > That's the first time I've heard that advice! Generally raw is
the first
> > change recommended for a dog with seizures. You definitely want
to avoid
> > carbohydrates and that would be pretty hard to do if you aren't
feeding raw.
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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6b. Re: Seizures and raw feeding-please help
Posted by: "Rachael" wi_gsd@yahoo.com wi_gsd
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 5:54 pm ((PDT))

My GSD has siezures (we think that's what they are...the other option
is mini strokes). Anyway, She has small seizures as though she is a
drunk sailor. She can't walk, looks confused and scared. In a couple
minutes, she is fine and walks away like nothing happened. (My point
being..they aren't grand mal seizures) I have started her on herbs
from my doggie chiropracter/alternative medicine vet. She has only had
1 seizure since I started these herbs and it was a very shortened
version when she first started the herbs. It has been 5 months now...
and no more seizures from what I have seen. I can give you her name
and website...if you are interested. I've had good luck so far. She
also gets herbs for her food allergies...which have also helped. I
feed her raw rabbit and pork heart. I add a small amount of vegggies
everyonce in a while...and a little olive oil.
Rachael

Messages in this topic (8)
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6c. Re: Seizures and raw feeding-please help
Posted by: "Eileen Dover" millsmontreal@gmail.com wonderpei
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 8:04 pm ((PDT))

If it makes you feel better Wilson, I have an epilpetic dog and feed raw.

I think you will have to rule out what type of epilepsy your dog has,
(idiopathic or non-idiopathic), and you'll have to do this together
with your vet. This way you'll know what direction to follow as far as
treatment goes, but personally, I don't see why you should not
continue to feed raw.

While it's true that food could in rare cases trigger a seizure, these
types of foods are generally chemically altered, so I don't see why
raw should be ruled out other than a dog 'could' choke on a bone
during a seizure, but then, they could also choke on a piece of kibble
during a seizure.

Cheers
MM

>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I had a painful experience with my Italian greyhound girl the other
day I thought she was
> going to die in my arms. She had a terrible seizure totally out of
blue. I have been raw
> feeding her for the past year and she has been very healthy, she is
only 4 years old. I read on
> the http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/ that raw feeding
is not advised for
> epileptic dogs. I'm a bit confused and was wondering if anyone had
any thoughts or
> experiences on this subject and any advise regarding the raw diet
and dogs that are epileptic.
>
> Thank you so much for any words of wisdom.
>
> Wilson
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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7a. Re: Louie is getting better....I think
Posted by: "mandajenwalker" walker1031@chartermi.net mandajenwalker
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

Thanks everyone!
I had planned on starting him on the pills. I was just unsure as to
HOW the raw diet would help him. I didn't know if his body was
lacking something that it needed when he was on the kibble and if the
raw would give him what he needed to get the thyroid to work properly.
I don't know a lot about hypothyroidism and what the cause is. I
haven't had time to research it yet.
By the way, Chris O., Mister Louie is his nickname....how's ya know???
Thanks again everyone!
I appreciate it!
Mandy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "mandajenwalker" <walker1031@> wrote:
> >
> > I haven't put him on the meds that she gave me yet. I don't know if
> > that is the right thing to do or not. I don't want the meds to
> > interfere with my observation of the raw diet.....is that the right
> > thing to do? Should I be giving him the meds to? Or is the raw diet
> > going to help with his problem?
> *****
> Mandy, definitely put him on the meds. A good raw diet can help the
> immune system and do all sorts of great things to improve quality of
> life but it can't fix a busted thyroid. You will need to keep Louie on
> thyroid meds for the rest of his life and you will probably fine need
> to adjust his dosage several times along the way.
>
> Thyroid meds are the thing to do for Mister Louie.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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8a. Salmonella
Posted by: "Roxane" roxanegraham@yahoo.com roxanegraham
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 5:54 pm ((PDT))

When you feed raw chicken, do you have to worry about salmonella?

Roxane

Messages in this topic (6)
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8b. Re: Salmonella
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 6:16 pm ((PDT))

>When you feed raw chicken, do you have to worry about salmonella?

Hi. Go to www.rawfed.com and choose myth section and you find all answers you may have.

asanswer to yourquestion,no,dog hasshorter intestin and before it gets infected,the bacteria gets passed with poop.

yassy

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

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Messages in this topic (6)
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8c. Re: Salmonella
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 7:14 pm ((PDT))

Since salmonella is everywhere, no. Just practice normal hygiene of washing
your hands when handling raw meat and you'll do fine.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Roxane" <roxanegraham@yahoo.com>

When you feed raw chicken, do you have to worry about salmonella?

Messages in this topic (6)
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9a. Source for Alligator Meat?
Posted by: "Jennie Stone-Gillihan" jstone3@bellsouth.net jenniep369
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 6:18 pm ((PDT))

Hello all. It's been quite a while since I've posted and in the
meantime we've been adopted by two puppy-mill rescued Miniature
Schnauzer ladies. They have quite taken over our hearts!! The younger
one, 3 yr. old Cleo, is consumed with some type of allergy. We went to
a great holistic vet today who wants to do a food elimination diet, but
I've fed Cleo so many raw meats, including rabbit and venison, that the
vet wants to use alligator meat of all things!!!??? I have searched
the web and it is EXHORBITANTLY expensive to have it shipped because of
the packaging, more than the meat itself from most sites. Does anyone
on the list, especially the RawFed Co-op in Atlanta, have the sources
to purchase alligator meat? Any info would be greatly appreciated, by
Cleo and me, both!!!

Thanks,
Jennie Gillihan and Cleo
Newnan, GA

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Source for Alligator Meat?
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 8:02 pm ((PDT))

There's a rawfed co-op in Atlanta? Could I get the info to join that
please! And in the future, if you need alligator meat, I've considered
going hunting for them again in the future. It probably won't be until
next year, but I will likely do it again sometime.

You may want to call some of the southern Georgia Wildlife Management
Areas that have alligator hunts (through the Georgia Department of
Natural Resources website), find out when their alligator hunting is,
and see if you can't go down their and take carcasses off their hands.
Some people just want skins; others want meat. Either way, you are
likely to get some parts out of it, like legs and whatnot. Alligators
have fairly chunky legs, jowls, arms, etc. Their heads are solid bone
though, so stay away from that! :)

I hope that leads you in the right direction. Sometimes, you have to
get creative to get specialty meats.

-Steph
Scarlet
Lucy
Minkey

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jennie Stone-Gillihan"
<jstone3@...> wrote:
>
Does anyone
> on the list, especially the RawFed Co-op in Atlanta, have the sources
> to purchase alligator meat? Any info would be greatly appreciated,
by
> Cleo and me, both!!!
>
> Thanks,
> Jennie Gillihan and Cleo
> Newnan, GA
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: How do you feed a sick dog?
Posted by: "Marion" mbldesigns@yahoo.com mbldesigns
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 6:18 pm ((PDT))

I tried raw chicken for dinner tonight and he wouldn't eat it. He got
up and turned away from his dish. Monday he ate some cooked chicken
but wouldn't eat it Tuesday, that's when I cooked up the
rice/oatmeal/chicken/pork goo and he ate about 3 spoonfuls of it
Tuesday night. He didn't eat Wednesday nor today. I'll be calling the
vet back tomorrow. He keeps looking at us like he's hungry, but he
won't eat anything we give him. He just turns his nose and won't eat
any of it. It's almost like he's skipping about 3 meals then he'll eat
a tiny bit and then nothing for a while.

Thanks,
Marion

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know...that's a long time for a sick dog to not eat. I'm not
> really comfortable with vets prescribing drugs without knowing what's
wrong.
> I would want to know. He could have something serious that may
require
> treatment. Just a simple blood test would reveal if there's anything
going
> on with liver, kidneys, pancreas, etc. 12.5 is not old for a small
breed.
>
> Have you tried chicken to see if he'll eat it? Try warming it up a
bit.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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10b. Re: How do you feed a sick dog?
Posted by: "Marion" mbldesigns@yahoo.com mbldesigns
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 6:38 pm ((PDT))

OK we just tried raw chicken again, no luck. So we cooked it a bit. he
ate a couple, but not the ones that weren't cooked through and through.
So we're cooking them better and cooling and trying again.......nope,
he won't eat them. He ate 5 little pieces about the size of my
fingertip and won't eat anymore.

Thanks,
Marion

Messages in this topic (7)
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11a. Re: BIG argument with a &quot;holistic&quot; vet!
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 8:04 pm ((PDT))

I found a holistic vet that encourages rawfeeding. She was wonderful the one time we went. She doesn't even push vaccination. She said we can sit down and discuss what we want and need. Why aren't there more vets like that?

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: BIG argument with a &quot;holistic&quot; vet!
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 8:24 pm ((PDT))

I'd like to know the answer to this question too, Ivette.
Cori

She doesn't even push vaccination. She said we can sit down and discuss
what we want and need. Why aren't there more vets like that?
>
> Ivette Casiano
> "Live for today, plan for tomorrow"
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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12. Rabbit.... is it just me??
Posted by: "Terri Leist" qahri@sbcglobal.net qahri
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 8:24 pm ((PDT))

I was offered some rabbits for $6.00 each. I weighed some already skinned that another person gave me & they weighed about 2lbs. Is that too much for rabbit? I mean, getting chicken, beef, & pork; isn't that enough variety? I would still have to kill & clean them. I know the price of beef, pork, & chicken, but I am unsure of rabbit. Do they really NEED rabbit??

Terri & the Raw Fed-"Muttly Crew" Kadin & Lilly:
Learn how: www.rawfeddogs.net

www.rawfed.com

www.rawmeatybones.com

Over exposure to the SON; actually PREVENTS burning!!

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Messages in this topic (1)
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