[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12019

There are 26 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: raw feeding for 2 years, suddenly very sick * update-looks like
From: Jennie Stone-Gillihan
1b. Re: raw feeding for 2 years, suddenly very sick * update-looks like
From: Trish

2.1. Re: question
From: Michael Moore

3. Gurgling tummies and fairly new to raw
From: dmoore930

4a. Re: [Raw Feeding] Come to the dark side
From: tottime47

5a. Aggression!!!
From: Mona
5b. Re: Aggression!!!
From: mousegirls

6a. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
From: Deena
6b. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
From: beckie716

7a. Re: Does anyone ever feed squirrel?
From: erica

8. Hurt Puppy
From: Anna Labriola

9.1. Re: Question
From: costrowski75

10a. Hi, new here, need help with raw feeding my siberian huskies
From: mrskheath
10b. Re: Hi, new here, need help with raw feeding my siberian huskies
From: Yasuko herron
10c. Re: Hi, new here, need help with raw feeding my siberian huskies
From: carnesbill

11a. chronic diarrhea
From: Jen S
11b. Re: chronic diarrhea
From: Yasuko herron
11c. Re: chronic diarrhea
From: Jen S

12a. Poop question
From: lar07911
12b. Re: Poop question
From: Yasuko herron

13. Re: Digest Number 12018
From: tantelin22@aol.com

14a. Re: Intro with questions
From: Mona

15a. How Many Times A Day To Feed
From: Roxane
15b. Re: How Many Times A Day To Feed
From: heather pavelin

16. Three days on Raw for Zachary and so far....
From: Mia-Shay Emery

17a. Re: are hearts good meat?
From: betty hinson

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: raw feeding for 2 years, suddenly very sick * update-looks like
Posted by: "Jennie Stone-Gillihan" jstone3@bellsouth.net jenniep369
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 6:43 am ((PDT))

The vet is keeping Molly until Tuesday... Very sad here in our home.

******
> Scares the hell out of me, sorry. Go get her, why don't you? They
> can't do anything until they get the results anyway.
>
>
> ginny and Tomo, being unreasonable

*****

OMG I SOOOO agree with Ginny - go get your baby first thing tomorrow
morning if you can't get to her today!!!!! Most vets DO NOT have
someone staying at their place 24/7 so she will be along and scared
to death in addition to being sick!!! You can watch her every move
and let the vet know if anything changes.

Be on that doorstep when THEY GET THERE! And let us know how she is.

Jennie and Cleo, being 100% unreasonable WITH Ginny & Tomo

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: raw feeding for 2 years, suddenly very sick * update-looks like
Posted by: "Trish" trishwelham@hotmail.com trishwelham
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 11:26 am ((PDT))

Thank you for the concern Ginny and Jennie, they have her on IV with
nothing by mouth. There is only a 3 hour window that someone is not
there and the vet will be there today (Sun) and will give us an update.

I would love to have Molly with us, but I can't tell you how freaked
out I was when she collapsed and couldn't walk. I started crying
hysterically and scared my kids. I just don't know that we can help
her in the way she needs right now at this critical stage.

After doing a lot of reading on the forums I discovered the link
between prednisone and pancreatitis. She has been on the pred every
other day now for a few weeks. She also had pork Sunday, whole chicken
Tue and whole chicken Thu which she threw up Thu night/Fri morn.
> ******
> > Scares the hell out of me, sorry. Go get her, why don't you? They
> > can't do anything until they get the results anyway.
> >
> >
> > ginny and Tomo, being unreasonable
>
> *****
>
> OMG I SOOOO agree with Ginny - go get your baby first thing tomorrow
> morning if you can't get to her today!!!!!

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2.1. Re: question
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 7:33 am ((PDT))

>>Ok, since my GS puppy is 6 months and the other pup is almost 10 month
- do I still need to be feeding them 2 times a day - or can I just go
to one a day feeding for all 4 of them the other 2 are adult male GSs?<<

Brandi -- IMO, the 6 mos. old pup should still be fed twice daily. Some folks here, though, go to once-a-days with puppies this age. Six months is actually the age I *go* to twice daily feedings for my puppies, and then around 9-11 mos., I go to twice a days; prior to that I feed three times daily. Of course, my puppies are PWC, and I haven't raised a GSD on raw from a young age.

And, on the subject of beef heart -- that's the primary source of my dogs' beef consumption. It's a dandy red meaty meat, and I suggest you buy lots!! It's far superior, IMO, to the pork shoulder at the price you mentioned!

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (77)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3. Gurgling tummies and fairly new to raw
Posted by: "dmoore930" dmoore930@yahoo.com dmoore930
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 7:38 am ((PDT))

Hello, I'm Zoey, 11 year old 52 lb lab mix and my sister is Sadie, 2
year old(30 lb very tall) Shih-Tzu/terrier(wheaton?)mix. We were
adopted as pups from shelters. We are kinda new to raw feeding, about 2
months, and our 'mom' has been reading the daily digests every day. We
always ate dry food, 2 meals a day, until our mom decided there was a
better way, so we'll let her talk now!

Zoey has always had a sensitive stomach and was only fed one kind of
food and one kind of treat her whole life. Last summer she had
intestinal upsets one after another as well as itchy, itchy ears and
anal gland problems. Saw the vet, who practices traditonal as well as
holistic medicine, had tests that found nothing initally except
hypothyroid, diagnosed with something else that I can't remember. then
coccidia. She was treated with special diet, anti-bacterial cortisone
ear drops, antibiotics, worming meds, and ProBios (probiotic gel). She
finally got back to normal after about 5 weeks.

Sadie chews the hair off the front of her legs and once in a while off
her side. Allergies? Put on MSM powder, Fidoderm solution to put on
legs and Pavia Power Pads to put on legs. I took her off all wheat
products quite some time ago. Still chews sometimes even though all
raw.

I tried all the Nature's Variety stuff, bagged and frozen, before we
went raw and had also asked the vet for the natural home prepared diet I
know he is a proponent of. Of course, now he wanted me to have a
holistic visit for $75. Was able to get his 'recipe' on my own. His
recommendation was a 'Canine Natural Raw meat diet', but it contained
only 1/4 pound(for a mid sized dog),ground raw meat, veggies, grains,
milk products, all kinds of supplements. It was quite a recipe! Plus,
the bones recommended were either human grade bone meal or raw long
marrow bones only, or cut into smaller rings by by your butcher. . EEKS,
aren't they the hardest ones ever? Oh yeah, and no pork or rabbit.

Found out my best friend's son is a raw feeder and got to work. He
steered me to the same books you mention in yours posts. Loaned me some
to read, bought one of my own, joined your group and have been reading
since.

The girls are ALL raw now! They've been eating mostly chicken because
that is the only thing I've been able to find that has no 'solutions'
added. Get whole ones and whack them up. They absolutely love it. So,
chicken and nothing but chicken, was getting pretty boring, so I was
able to find some pork at the local farmer's market from a farmer
without additives, and some rabbit from the same guy. They've had the
pork and love it. Rabbit is in the freezer and not tried yet.

A couple of questions:
1. I have quite a schedule of my own and am having a terrible time
trying to switch to one meal a day. Plus the girls expect a meal before
I go to work and one when I get home. I've tried to switch the times a
bit but really can't. Any problem with long-term twice a day
feeding?
2. Zoey frequently has the loudest gurgling tummy for at least an hour
after eating. This morning she had her boneless meal of pork, fish oil
capsule, and thyroid pill. I can hear her from the other room. Sadie
sometimes does this too. Is this normal?

I know it's all about the poop, and we've had it all here, crumbly,
liquid, mucosy, soft and hard. I just adjust bone and liver as needed.
Also had a couple of BV, and BBV. Nothing that concerned me too much.
Got the SEBP at the health food store the other night to make meatballs
for the freezer just in case. I think I have the lingo right.

Great group. I've learned a lot and now hope to be able to join in
conversations. Oh, yeah, and Zoey is no longer eating her poop!!! I'm
keeping my fingers crossed. Thanks!

Diana in SE lower Michigan (any other Michiganders out there?)

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: [Raw Feeding] Come to the dark side
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 7:38 am ((PDT))

Lynne,

Hahahaha, I haven't gotten that far yet, but if someone could give
me a humane way of putting to sleep chipmunks, I might start, lol.

The little devils are so abundant they have started burrows under our
foundation!

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "linoleum5017" <linoleum5017@...>
wrote:

> Following the 'darkside line,' picking up roadkill may lead to
> roadkilling (near to road rage?) so perhaps rawfeeders shouldn't
begin
> the slippery slope????
>
> Lynne

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Aggression!!!
Posted by: "Mona" mona@ptd.net deliriousmom
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 7:58 am ((PDT))

Please tell me you can help!! I switched them cold turkey last
nite. I gave them each a chicken thigh (that's what I had in the
fridge defrosted for our dinner) and fed them in their crates. No
problem last nite, Bella ate hers entirely & Snickers ate about 3/4
of his and I gave Bella the rest when I was sure he was done. Come
this morning, I went to give Bella her breakfast (Snickers gets fed
1x, Bella 2x) consisting of another thigh only this time I gave it to
her on a towel on the kitchen floor, (I have a 12 ft tie-out attached
to a hook in the base of the wall so she can't wander out of my view)
and as I sat there on the floor with her she started growling at me!
I mean REALLY deep down growling and I told her not to growl and at
one point I went to adjust the towel and she snapped at me!!! This
pup has never shown ANY food aggression whatsoever with me! I could
give/take treats food, dishes, whatever right out of her mouth!
Well, I then grabbed the towel away, taking the chicken with it and
took the chicken and started letting her eat it while I was holding
it (yuck!) but she was fine! Then I put it down again and if my hand
went anywhere near her she growled again! What the heck is this all
about and what do I do to nip it in the bud?? I CANNOT have a food
aggressive dog in my home as I ALWAYS have young kids around (my 7yo
twin girls included)!

I am a wreck right now!
Mona

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Aggression!!!
Posted by: "mousegirls" mousegirls@gmail.com ladysown
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 9:49 am ((PDT))

First.... relax...

This is new food for her.
She really, really, really likes it!

She really, really, really doesn't want it to go away.

She will, over time, relax.

Otherwise, introduce her to a kennel or other such safe place to eat her
food and leave her be. Don't feed her when the wee ones are around
(early/late, play around with it a bit until she's calmed down again)

is she aggressive at other times with other things? OR is it just the
new food and her really, really, really enjoying it? if it is the
latter, she will start to chill out again, not that I can understand why
you would want to take food away from a happily eating dog....makes no
sense to me. :) you know the old adage....let sleeping or eating dogs
be?

Also...how big are these dogs? a thigh might not be enough for them.
might need more food and she's saying, I love this new food but I need
more of it, don't take that away!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I need that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's new, an adjustment needed for everyone. :)

annette
http://ladysown.blogspot.com/
http://rileysowner.livejournal.com/
http://vellengaviews.blogspot.com/

"What a man is alone on his knees before God, that he is, and no more".-Robert Murray M'Cheyne
"I believe that prayer is the measure of the man, spiritually, in a way that nothing else is, so that how we pray is as important a question as we can ever face"- J.I. Packer

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
Posted by: "Deena" mottola@comcast.net mottola22
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 7:58 am ((PDT))

Hi Barb,

IMO, it depends on *which* enzymes are high or low.

I interpret this situation a little differently. If one of my dogs
had amylase that was two points above normal, it would set up a
warning flag for me. That something was either wrong with the diet.
Or wrong with the dog. I actually like to see amylase on the low
side. Remember those lab "normals" are based on kibble fed dogs.
Who's pancreas need to produce amylase to properly digest all the
carbs and sugars in kibble. Dogs fed prey model don't need as much
of this particular digestive enzyme, so typically have lower amylase
levels.

So if one of my dogs had high or even normal amylase, I'd ask myself
why. Was he self-feeding on carbs & sugars behind my back? Is
something wrong with his pancreas that it finds the need to produce
an enzyme in excess of what is needed for his diet? If I wasn't
feeding carbs & sugars, and I knew he wasn't self feeding, I'd be
looking at ways to make his pancreas operate more normally for a prey
model fed dog.

I had a puppy who pretty much had no amylase at 14 weeks. My vet was
concerned his pancreas was shutting down. I saw no evidence of
this. He digested his biologically appropriate food perfectly. I
felt the reason was that his body hadn't had the need yet to produce
amylase. He went from booby milk to prey model. No grains in either
of those that require amylase. The plan was to retest.

He was also anemic. This I was concerned about and wanted to
address. We put him on a blood building diet which contained liver,
blackstrap molasses and oatmeal. The last two ingredients require
amylase to digest properly. We tested him a week later. His amylase
was smack dab center normal. Because his body now had a reason to
produce it. 2 years later, his amylase has been holding steady in
the low normal range. Or even high-low range. Just where I want
it. It tells me I am feeding correctly. If it was high, or even
normal, I'd be looking at his diet to figure out where the carbs and
sugars were coming from. Since I feed franken-prey.

Just another way to look at "normal" blood values in a dog fed a
biologically appropriate diet.

Deena

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rokedemyah" <rokedemyah@...>
wrote:
>
> the question that pops into my rank beginners mind is, since your
> feeding real food, why would the enzymes not be a bit higher. real
> food contains enzymes.
> Barb
>
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "beckie716" <beckie716@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@> wrote:
> > >
> > > An elevation of 2 points on one enzyme is probably not cause for
> > concern.
> > > Was the dog fasting? Any symptoms??
> > >
>

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: amalyse(sp?)-irritated pancreas
Posted by: "beckie716" beckie716@yahoo.com beckie716
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 11:51 am ((PDT))

>
> *** Be concerned about the vet. Amylase 0.002% above normal doesn't
> worry me. It is certainly not diagnostic for pancreatitis. I agree
> that you should feed only dog food, although my definition of dog food
> may differ significantly from your vet's.
>
> --Carrie
>

The vets in this area are very "feed only the dog food which I
provide" In fact, when my dog had bloat, I was feeding IAMS. After her
surgery, he made several snide comments about the food I was feeding
her, his of course was much better. I told him that she was refusing
canned food and that I was feeding her some hamburger, and a little
pork. He freaked out and told me boil the hamburger and add rice.

If any vet in this area heard that I was feeding a REAL diet. I would
get a lecture of how I was going to kill my animals.

I thought that high amylase was an indication of too much fat.

Beckie :)

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Does anyone ever feed squirrel?
Posted by: "erica" ericagordon@sbcglobal.net ericagsweet
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 7:59 am ((PDT))

Hmmmmm, this really makes me think of all the squirrel that I have
eaten as a kid! Di we all luck out that we didn't get sick?
Seriously my Dad & Grandpa were hunters & Grandma was an amazing
Italian cook! We had squirrel with polenta several times during
squirrel season. Grandma recently passed & my Dad has squirrels in
the freezer that he is hopng I will cook for him, I would like to try
to convince him to give them to me for the dog instead. It is too
boney for me. I'd much rather chicken polenta which I have made many,
many times. Anyway people still eat it so I wonder if the risk is
reall that much of a concern?

Erica

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "geraldinebutterfield"
<gbutterflied@...> wrote:
>
> I agree with Steve who warned about the poison people put out for
> pesky animals, bugs…
> There is no way for me to know who is putting out what, and we live
> in a bit of a country setting so have lots of these critters. I
> would not let my little girl eat a squirrel or mouse, unless I knew
> for certain it was safe, which I will not say those around me are.
> Although they would probably be a good meal. Just my 2 cents.
>
> geraldine

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8. Hurt Puppy
Posted by: "Anna Labriola" taggartgalt@yahoo.com taggartgalt
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 8:01 am ((PDT))

Hello, all.

I've been feeding Khan (my soon to be 6 mo old brown Doberman
pinscher) raw since shortly after I got him at 10 weeks. He has
eaten venison, chicken, turkey, and beef. I try to give him an egg
and sardines once a day for his dry skin and skin allergies.
Saturday, he had a fall while we were hiking about 12 noon and hurt
his rear left leg. :o( Suffice to say, his humans were much more
traumatized than I think he is at this point. He slid into a gully
about 15 feet at one of our state parks. Xray's so far are negative;
radiologist will review a shadow we think is inflammation this coming
Wednesday. There is some inflammation that I can feel(palpate) on
the "front" of his leg, where his knee would be. At this point, I'm
praying that his ligaments are intact.

We fed him three chicken boneless, skinless breasts shortly after we
got home and the morphine wore off. He hadn't eaten since the night
before the accident. The first one I cut up and hand fed, the other
two he ate normally. He stared at me later that night and ended up
eating a turkey neck and a turkey drum laying down last night. This
morning, he's eaten another turkey neck and drum. He was actually
able to stand to eat those and I did feed him in his cage. He will
be on an anti-inflammatory and tramadol for pain for about five days.

Is there any special feeding I should be doing? He's had nothing but
soft stool since the injury. He's back to normal mentally,
psychologocally, but gimping and whining occasionally. Hard to keep
my pup down. Should we be giving him more bone and joint foods
during his healing process? I assume diarrhea is normal with the
stress. We're working really hard to let it go and not feel guilty
(to not give him "unstable" vibes.) But, any dietary advice from the
experienced would be appreciated.

Oh, yeah, and coincidentally, we have an appointment with the
holistic, raw feeding vet on Monday; so we'll get a second opinion.
The e-vet was like, "Is he healthy, any problems?" And I'm sure it's
cuz we feed raw. :O)
Thanks, guys,
Anna

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9.1. Re: Question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 8:03 am ((PDT))

"Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, since my GS puppy is 6 months and the other pup is almost 10 month
> - do I still need to be feeding them 2 times a day
*****
Depends on the dog.
It's not that you cannot or should not, it's how well the dog's
digestive system responds to eating bigger meals. And the only way
you're gonna know is to test the waters.

My guess is the 10mo will be able to eat one meal a day. If he has an
unpleasant reaction, go back to two meals and gradually increase the
size of one meal and diminish the size of the other til one is hardly
more than a snacky mouthful. That should take care of it.

The 6mo though simply may not have a large enough and/or experienced
enough stomach to handle one meal. I don't even start thinking about
moving to one meal a day til the pup is eight or nine months, and then
I spend some time transitioning from two meals to one.

If the little one cannot efficiently use the food when it's presented
in one daily meal, he won't be getting the nutrition he needs. IMO
your primary concern should be making sure he is properly nourished,
and if that means feeding him twice and the others once, that's the way
it goes. It won't be long before he's ready for one meal.

Ultimately, what you do is try and see how it all comes out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (147)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Hi, new here, need help with raw feeding my siberian huskies
Posted by: "mrskheath" mrskheath@yahoo.co.uk mrskheath
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 8:32 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!!!!!!

Ok, this is a long one....

Hi, I have always used a raw minced meat with a kibble to feed my
Siberian Husky (the vet recommended the kibble as he needed calcium),
but he is growing bigger now and needs to get his teeth stuck into
something (he's 18 months).

I have a 17/18 week old bitch which is making the transition from the
breeders food (A science plan <rolling eyes>) to raw feeding.

1) I would have ordered in 3 types of frozen raw chunks from a
specialist store local to me- poultry necks, tripe, liver. I'm also
pureeing (coarse) a mix of carrot, cabbage, peas and banana alternating
daily with apples, sprouts, carrot and cabbage - giving the veg with
both am and pm meals? Is this ok?

2) At first he was a bit reluctant (and too lazy) to chew up the chunks
with the bones in. He refuses to touch the biscuits with it at the
moment also. He doesn't like the liver either (even if i cook it) but i
am told he needs some heart, kidney or liver each week to balance him.
What can i do?

He seems to like the poultry necks and i'm trying the tripe out (not
personally)<trying not to yak> tonight.

I'll be honest...I am not as informed about all this as id like to be,
and info is limited on raw feeding sites.

3) My boy is an almost fully grown adult and is of a good weight (46lbs)

How much should he be eating daily? I cant find the info on any site
anywhere
I know he needs a ratio of 1 meat to two veg. But altogether what is the
approximate amount he needs? He is a moderately active dog.

4) Oh and also does it matter if occasionally my young bitch runs off
with one or two poultry necks / bit of liver?

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Hi, new here, need help with raw feeding my siberian huskies
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 11:10 am ((PDT))

>I have a 17/18 week old bitch 1) I would have ordered in 3 types of frozen raw chunks from >a specialist store local to me- poultry necks, tripe, liver. I'm also
>pureeing (coarse) a mix of carrot, cabbage, peas and banana alternating
>daily with apples, sprouts, carrot and cabbage - giving the veg with
>both am and pm meals? Is this ok?

Hi. First off, do not start feeding everything you like to feed at one sitting.Raw feeding is not feeding copmpetition. Go slow with baby steps andfeed one new thing at a time after you see yourdog does good on.

Second, you don't need to feed veggies because they cannot digest well.You would find tonz of info why we don't feed etc in past archive.A month or so ago,there was a deep talk about it.Search the archive in the group page you find info more on it.

Third,yourdog is 46lb,almost 50lb right? I think neck is easy to encourage the dog to gulp.I think better to stayaway from it to avoid it.

For tripe, it is good to add in meal but it is not waht you like to start with.Save it for later.

Instead,feed easy soft boned whole chicken cutted to your dog portion size. Stick with it for about a week and after you see your dog does good on chicken meat,introduce new thing with the chicken.

First some weeks feeding meals be very simple meal.

Liver.. it is something you need to be careful about. too much liver cause run.So,you like to introduce from smidge size to 10% of your dog's ideal daily intake amount.

>2) At first he was a bit reluctant (and too lazy) to chew up the chunkswith the bones in.

Of course! Smell is different,texture is different,taste is bland and different.. So,somedogs need adjusting times.

> He doesn't like the liver either (even if i cook it)

If it were pretty new food,some dog takes time to get used to it. And, be patient with your dog and you can try different kinds of enticing tricks.

>i am told he needs some heart, kidney or liver each week to balance him.

Well,after your dog does good on main meal,you add small amount and gradually make the dog meal more stuff in it etc but for starter,you better off stick to simple meal. Nutritional balance in rawfeeding is made over-time,not daily or weekly.You would find feeding heart or kidney or liver at one point time after some period of simple meal,but not on right off the bat.

>How much should he be eating daily?

Good start point is to feed 2-3% of ideal weight.And then adjust the amount accordingly later on by watching your dogs appearence.

>I cant find the info on any site anywhere I know he needs a ratio of 1 meat to two veg.

you find tonz and tonz of info on past archives of this group. What do you do when your dog got loose stool,waht do you do if yourdog got diarrhea,what do you do if dog refused to eat meal,constipation prob, how much to feed.. oh,you see some posts about poop with mucous too.

These are common topic you can find periodically on this list.

For now,my suggestion is to stop waht you are feeding and go get a whole chicken and feed just plain chicken meat with bone;no veggie,no liver,no trip,no gizzard.

while you feeding so,look at group archives in the past.You would learn quite a bit with just reading past posts.

yassy

---------------------------------
Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

10c. Re: Hi, new here, need help with raw feeding my siberian huskies
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 11:51 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mrskheath" <mrskheath@...> wrote:
>

> 1) I would have ordered in 3 types of frozen raw chunks from a
> specialist store local to me- poultry necks, tripe, liver.

Turkey necks are ok but chicken necks are way too small for a dog
his size. To me, tripe is highly over rated and liver is something
you should start very slow on. I feed my two dogs a "glob" of liver
each week. A "glob" is about 1/2 the size of my fist.

If I were you I would look into more variety by slowly adding things
like pork, beef, fish, deer, goat and any other type of meat you can
find in your area. Variety is important.

> I'm also
> pureeing (coarse) a mix of carrot, cabbage, peas and
> banana alternating
> daily with apples, sprouts, carrot and cabbage - giving the
> veg with
> both am and pm meals? Is this ok?

No, absolutely not. Dogs are carnivores and have no need for any
plant material at all. Carnivores eat meat, bones, and organs of
any animal they can catch and kill.

> 2) At first he was a bit reluctant (and too lazy) to chew up
> the chunks
> with the bones in. He refuses to touch the biscuits with it at the
> moment also. He doesn't like the liver either (even if i cook
> it) but i
> am told he needs some heart, kidney or liver each week to
> balance him.
> What can i do?

You can stop catering to his whims, take charge and decide what he
is going to eat and stick to it. It's your responsibility to set
his diet, not his. Decide what you want to feed him and put it
down. After 10 minutes of showing no interest, take it up, put it
in the fridge and bring THE SAME STUFF back out next meal. Don't
make a fuss. Don't try to get him to eat. Put it down and get out
of his way. Don't hover over him. Don't try to cajole him into
eating. If he doesn't eat it the second time, go through the same
ritual again and again until he decides you are not going to cave
and he must eat it. He gets no snacks or treats between meals until
he learns to eat what you put down.

There is nothing he needs each week. Yes he needs some heart,
kidney or liver. There is no set timetable he needs it. You might
feed heart once a month or you might feed it every day. Its not
critical.

> He seems to like the poultry necks and i'm trying the tripe
> out (not personally)<trying not to yak> tonight.

Again chicken necks are too small. Turkey necks are ok if you feed
them whole. Most grocery stores sell turkey necks cut in half. A
whole turkey neck is about a foot long and often weighs over a lb.

> I'll be honest...I am not as informed about all this as id like to
be, and info is limited on raw feeding sites.

Get the book "Work Wonders" by Tom Lonsdale. You may download the
book for $9.95 from http://www.ebookmall.com/ebooks-authors/tom-
lonsdale-ebooks.htm or order hard copy either at

http://www.dogwise.com or at http://www.amazon.com (cheaper).

A few informative web sites are:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm (My web page)
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

> 3) My boy is an almost fully grown adult and is of a good
> weight (46lbs)
> How much should he be eating daily? I cant find the info on
> any site anywhere

Every dog is different. Begin with about a pound or 1 1/2 pounds a
day and watch him. If he starts getting chubby cut back. If he
starts to loose weight, feed more.

> I know he needs a ratio of 1 meat to two veg. But altogether
> what is the
> approximate amount he needs? He is a moderately active dog.

I don't know where you got that information but the correct ratio is
1 meat/bone/organ to 0 veg. Dogs have no need for vegs, can't
digest them and can't extract nutrients from them. That ration
sounds like a human ratio. Dogs are not humans. Their body is
designed much differently than ours and their nutritional
requirements are a lot different.

> 4) Oh and also does it matter if occasionally my young bitch
> runs off with one or two poultry necks / bit of liver?

Feed her just like you feed him. When I adopted a puppy at 12
weeks, within 2 weeks he was eating exactly the same as the adult
dogs. You MIGHT want to split it into more feedings/day. I didn't.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. chronic diarrhea
Posted by: "Jen S" jennilist@gmail.com bowiegirl1979
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 9:33 am ((PDT))

I got Tiberius from the humane society almost 3 months ago. My vet
estimates he is about 6 months old. I have been feeding him raw since
the day I brought him home. In almost 3 months, I can count on 2
hands the number of days he has NOT had diarrhea. He had parvo when
he was at the shelter, and my vet said that because of this he will
always have a problem with loose stools. Is this true? I told her
about the diarrhea when we first got him, and she put him on
antibiotics. I don't want to keep him on medicine. I like my vet,
but she is very traditional and thinks medicine is the answer to
everything. We agree to disagree on things like that.

My question is (besides can parvo cause lifelong looser stool) does
anyone have any idea why he might have diarrhea so badly? He gets a
good amount of bone, not a lot of organ meat (I go very slow with that
because of the diarrhea). I try to feed him a little more bone than
my other dog in hopes that it will firm up his stools, but it doesn't
seem to work. I am going to start keeping track of exactly what he
eats and how much, and make note of days that he has firm stool. But
I'm looking for any help you all can give in the meantime.

Thank you all so much for any suggestions. Oh, I do have another dog,
Loki, who is almost 3 and has been rawfed for 1.5 years, and he
doesn't usually have trouble with loose stool. He only has it when
he's really not feeling well (which is very rare). So I'm almost
certain that I at least have the ratios right, though I know every dog
is different.

Thanks,

Jen

--
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are
treated. -Mahatma Gandhi

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: chronic diarrhea
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 10:21 am ((PDT))

> I told her about the diarrhea when we first got him, and she put him on antibiotics. I don't >want to keep him on medicine.

Hi. Is yourdog still on antibiotic med?? If so, diarrhea is caused by anti biotic which kills off good friendly bacteria in the gut.

Renee was asking the same questions a week or so before and,this topic was moving to rawchat to discuss more. Did you check archive? If not,try check archive you may find some info on it from the Raw chat list and here.

since Anti biotic kill good bacteria in the gut,you need to give the friendly bacteria back in so that the dog still get good bacteria in gut and not going to have domino effect/vicious cycle.

Long story short,you need to give Probiotic to dog that is on anti biotic med during the course and some times after as well.

I think somebody recommended capsuled probiotic in this list.

Please check the archive,you may find one what i am talking about.

yassy

---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11c. Re: chronic diarrhea
Posted by: "Jen S" jennilist@gmail.com bowiegirl1979
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 11:28 am ((PDT))

On 9/9/07, Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi. Is yourdog still on antibiotic med?? If so, diarrhea is caused by anti biotic which > kills off good friendly bacteria in the gut.

No, this was a couple months ago. He is not on antibiotics anymore.
He was taking probiotics while he was on them though.

I will check the archives as well. Sorry for asking a question that
was recently answered.

Jen

--
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are
treated. -Mahatma Gandhi

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Poop question
Posted by: "lar07911" lar07911@yahoo.com lar07911
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 9:33 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: REMEMBER TO SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

Oh the joys of having such small stools! I am just making sure this
isn't too small and that I am not just feeding too much bone.

I have a 17 pound terrier mix and at first when I was feeding her raw
her stools were much smaller, but firm units. Now, her stool is
very, very small and almost pebble like. They now are normally about
1/2 inch or smaller. She isn't constipated by any means. Is her body
just doing a better job at taking the nutrients in? So far she has
had pork, turkey, chicken and I recently added chicken liver and beef
liver.

I have added organs to see if her stools would be different and they
are still pebble like. Is this ok? Thanks!

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: Poop question
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 10:00 am ((PDT))

> They now are normally about 1/2 inch or smaller. She isn't constipated by any means.

Hi. I know that my dog's poo got much much smaller than the pileof poo she did on kibble time. As long as your dog not squatting too long to finally poop out things,I think it is normal and no need to worry about it.

My dog is 35lb now,and this morning,she did quite thin almost pinky sized length,width poo. and I don't worry about it because she did not look like constipated.

You may find your dog pooping less frequently than before too.

I am not sure why,but chicken poo is always pinky sized but if i feed Beef,her poop get bit larger than that. Color changes too.It is interesting.

as long as she acting normal without too much straining,don't worry about poo and enjoy rawfeeding.

yassy

---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13. Re: Digest Number 12018
Posted by: "tantelin22@aol.com" tantelin22@aol.com tantelindar
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 9:34 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE AND TRIM.***

In a message dated 9/9/2007 9:29:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com writes:

I can get beef hearts quite cheaply, I've heard they have taurine in them
and that they're a
muscle - are they as good a meaty meat as other cuts of meaty meat because
if so I'll make
that an affordable larger chunk of his meaty intake?

****
Yes, they are good meaty meat, and lucky you! I have to pay $2 a pound for
them but I still feed all I can afford. :)

Lynda

================
LOL Never met a dog that didn't love beef or veal heart... but not as much
as I do! I'd suggest trimming off the big chunks of suet on the beef hearts
(assuming you are getting them whole and untrimmed); especially in warm
weather, few dogs need that much pure fat. Keep it and ration it out. :) The
woodpeckers will be happy to help you dispose of the rest.


<======================================== >
Blessed Be with An Honorable Peace!
Tante Lin

Maxine is my Hero! She says:
My idea of rebooting is kicking somebody in the butt twice.
Don't let aging get you down: it's too hard to get back up!
If you woke up breathing, congratulations!
You have another chance!
<===>

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14a. Re: Intro with questions
Posted by: "Mona" mona@ptd.net deliriousmom
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

Thanks for your reply and I stand corrected about the tongue thing, I
just looked it up, so basically she could be part anything lol!

I'm still trying to figure out how much to feed her, I'm going with a
very conservative estimate of 50# adult weight right now so I'm
thinking 1 - 1.5 lbs of chicken a day for now and we'll see how she
does. That works out roughly to 2 chicken thighs a day + the little
bit that the older dog leaves over since he's much smaller. Do you
think this is a good starting point?

Mona

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi, Mona!
> Welcome to the raw side! ^_^
>
> My response will be even longer. ; )
>
> btw, some other pure bred dogs have black spots on their tongues, so
> Bella doesn't necessarily have to be part Chow.
>

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

15a. How Many Times A Day To Feed
Posted by: "Roxane" roxanegraham@yahoo.com roxanegraham
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 9:52 am ((PDT))

It looks like a lot of people feed raw once a day and I was wondering
why they do so. I do like to feed twice a day, is there some reason I
should not.

Thanks
Roxane

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

15b. Re: How Many Times A Day To Feed
Posted by: "heather pavelin" hpav061378@yahoo.com hpav061378
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 10:22 am ((PDT))

I only do it because I have three kids that I homeschool and 2 dogs with 1 less feeding a day means 1 less mess. only having to worry about feeding the skin kids and not the hounds is less of a omg I have so much to do feeling. When people told me thats what they did, I jumped on it :) Heather

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

16. Three days on Raw for Zachary and so far....
Posted by: "Mia-Shay Emery" briarbaby_04@yahoo.com briarbaby_04
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 11:11 am ((PDT))

Hi All
Well Zachary has been on raw feed for three days now and I'm surprised at how well he's doing. This morning his stools were a bit loose but he's perkier, and he seems to have his bounce back!
He's loving raw and we've been having diet problems since he arrived so I am starting to wonder if maybe he was raised on raw. I tried several times to get his breeder to tell me what she'd fed him but all she would say was "He'll be fine on whatever you decide to give him". I've tried most high end k***le foods and he would only eat a few of them, it never occured to me that he may have eaten raw before he got here.
Well we're on the right track now, hopefully his hot spot will clear up and his coat will be happier!
Have a great day!
Mia

____________________________________________________________________________________
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

17a. Re: are hearts good meat?
Posted by: "betty hinson" b_hinson@sbcglobal.net paps4jesus
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 11:51 am ((PDT))

lucky for you alll I can;t get them here the hearts that is
Betty Hinson
b_hinson@sbcglobal.net
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me Phil 4:13

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------