[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12048

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: costrowski75
1b. boneless meals/what to feed?
From: blue eyed
1c. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: Sandee Lee
1d. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: katkellm
1e. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: Sandee Lee
1f. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1g. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1h. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: caroline gebbie

2a. Re: Cutting necks?
From: costrowski75

3.1. Re: green tripe
From: Dave Brown
3.2. Re: green tripe
From: Deborah Gordon
3.3. Re: green tripe
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: problems with cheese???
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: problems with cheese???
From: Michael Moore
4c. Re: problems with cheese???
From: Dave Brown
4d. Re: problems with cheese???
From: Morledzep@aol.com
4e. Re: problems with cheese???
From: kahonebay

5a. Re: Newbie Here
From: Misty Sargent

6a. Re: I'm new with puppy
From: Giselle

7a. Re: Feeding Heads
From: Giselle

8a. EPI German Shepherd with terrible gas - Ugh!!
From: Erica Mills

9a. Re: help with doxie, back problem, weight and raw feeding
From: Pam Staley
9b. Re: help with doxie, back problem, weight and raw feeding
From: K Carolyn Ramamurti

10. mistaken post to rawfeeding
From: Dave Brown

11. Help with new puppies....
From: Cindy Marabito

Messages
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1a. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:35 am ((PDT))

"morkydzgrl" <ShankMa4@...> wrote:
>> Now I see that only 10% of diet is bone and 10% is organ. That
leaves
> 80% meat. That is a big portion --80%. How come we aren't talking
more
> about boneless meals?
*****
We do. They are recommended endlessly, tirelessly. But it's pert
easy to find boneless meat--no bone means boneless. It's harder to
find edible bones that are sufficiently meaty. That's why dicussions
tend to revolve around and return to meaty bones.

> Any suggestions, tips, education on how to feed 80% boneless meals?
> Are people feeding 80% boneless meals?
*****
I have no idea. My guess is people tend to feed more bone than they
need to, either because they don't believe 10%-15% is nutritionally
adequate, or because they are accustomed to feeding certain RMBs and
if those RMBs are significantly bony, well, that's just how it goes.

I feed many boneless meals. I also feed bone-in body parts that are
seriously meaty. And I also feed bone-in body parts that are pretty
darn bony, but in a good raw diet this all evens out over time. And I
also offer generally inedible bones that are so wonderfully meaty
(whole beef shanks for example) that they might as well be boneless.

There are lots of ways to feed meat. Boneless is one of them.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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1b. boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:36 am ((PDT))

I dont really think of it as feeding bones 10% of the time and meat 80% of the time. I try to think of feeding raw meaty bones. In otherwards (sp?) feed bones where the meal is about 10-15% bone and the rest meat. Make another meal offal or add some to the other meal that has meaty bones. You will find what suits your dog best.

Try to remember it is variety over time, so dont worry if each and every meal dosn't add up perfectly.

Natalie

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Messages in this topic (13)
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1c. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:29 am ((PDT))

Dave,

The commercial frozen products are notoriously high in bone content, low on
meat and fat. Don't assume those ratios are correct.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Dave Brown" <quahog@netnet.net>
>
> I feed a ground, fresh frozen, commercial raw diet that has bone,
> muscle meat, organ meat, etc.... it has the bone/meat balance
> already done for me. I still give Maxx bones on the side and
> occasional boneless meals.

Messages in this topic (13)
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1d. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, caroline gebbie <caz320ml@...> wrote:

> Very new to this and was thinking of feeding a frozen commercial
diet such as prize choice and giving the occassional half chicken and
bone to chew on.

Hi Caroline,
I'm not Dave, but i would like to put in my couple cents about feeding
frozen patties. First, as with kibble, you are at someone else's
mercy as to what is in the diet. You don't really know for absolutely
positively sure what you are feeding your dog. You are forced to take
their word for the ingredients. Second, any frozen raw company is in
it for the same reason kibble manufacturers are in it-the$$$. The
more bone and grizzle and junk they put in there the cheaper it is to
make, and the cheaper it is to make, the more $ they make. Call me a
skeptic, put i can't trust a company like that to feed my dog-help me
balance my checkbook, maybe, since money is their motivation, but not
decide what my dog gets to eat--not decide how much bone or organ or
meat is appropriate for my dog. The frozen raw patty might seem to be
more conventient, but it certainly is not more convenient than the
prey model diet which is taught here--no grinders to smash, no
blenders to puree...Just hand your dog a hunk of meat. Granted, we
talk about percentages of bone/organ/meat, but that is a "one time and
ya learned it all" recipe that is very easy to create and very
forgiving over time because it can be tweeked and padded to balance
out to the perfect diet for your individual dog. Also, every ground
patty that you feed with the already mashed up bone, deprives your dog
of one of the biggest advantages of the prey model raw diet, dental
hygiene. Those patties can't clean teeth, and they can't provide the
mental and physical challenge that a hunk of meat with a bone in it
somewhere can. Please read more from this list and ask questions and
really think about it before you ditch kibble to get suckered in by
frozen patties. JMO KathyM who is now stepping off her soap box and
says "sorry" if she carried on just a tad too much

Messages in this topic (13)
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1e. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:39 am ((PDT))

I see Prize Choice does offer chunked meat which might be ok to add some
variety to a nice whole foods raw diet, but you could probably find most of
those same items in your local markets far cheaper. You definitely want to
stay away form the ground up mixtures they sell which contain veggies and
rice.

Far better to stick with whole chickens and other large chunks of food so
you have control over the ingredients and provide the necessary exercise and
tooth cleaning you won't get with commercial foods.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "caroline gebbie" <caz320ml@yahoo.com>

> Very new to this and was thinking of feeding a frozen commercial diet
such as prize choice and giving the occassional half chicken and bone to
chew on. Is this what you do? And what commercial diet do you feed?

Messages in this topic (13)
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1f. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:42 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/18/2007 7:04:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,
quahog@netnet.net writes:

I feed a ground, fresh frozen, commercial raw diet that has bone,
muscle meat, organ meat, etc.... it has the bone/meat balance
already done for me. I still give Maxx bones on the side and
occasional boneless meals.

****the focus of this group is prey model raw feeding.. commercially prepared
ground "dog food" is not part of a species appropriate raw diet.

Commercially prepared raw foods are high in bone (because it's cheap) and
have veggies (unnecessary and potentially harmful, because they are cheap) and
very little actual meat. Not to mention the fact that it's ground and the dogs
don't get any dental hygene benefits or the workout and
chewing/tearing/crunching satisfaction that comes with feeding appropriately.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (13)
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1g. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/18/2007 4:46:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
ShankMa4@aol.com writes:

Now I see that only 10% of diet is bone and 10% is organ. That leaves
80% meat. That is a big portion --80%. How come we aren't talking more
about boneless meals?

Cindi,

that's just it.. we do talk about meaty meat meals and MEATY bones, rather
than bones with meat on them.. and it goes in one ear and out the other.. folks
focus on the bones because that is what has been drilled into their heads by
folks like billinghurst and the other "diet gurus".

And then there are the other end of the spectrum, the folks that are afraid
to give their dogs bones, so they feed them meat only and then complain that
their dogs' poop is runny.

you really can't win, you can put out the info often, and every once in
awhile someone's light bulb turns on and the whole world is better. In the mean
time, we keep on putting the info out there and hoping for the best.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (13)
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1h. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "caroline gebbie" caz320ml@yahoo.com caz320ml
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:44 pm ((PDT))

Hi Kathy

Thanks for comments, and don't apologise for getting on soap box we all love our dogs.
I think I am just scared about finding options, without buying expensive cuts. I have 2 boxers one 27 kilos the other 31 kilos, both ideal weight or a little under as they both have problems with their rear ends.

I have rung a few butchers and they all seem horrified at the idea, and in the uk Deer is out i am afraid, my dad does shoot so rabbits and the odd pheasant are a possibility but he lives an hour away.

Thanks I will keep reading and looking and see what I can come up with.

Caroline, Bonnie and Londo

katkellm <katkellm@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, caroline gebbie <caz320ml@...> wrote:

>Hi Caroline,
I'm not Dave, but i would like to put in my couple cents about feeding
frozen patties. First, as with kibble, you are at someone else's
mercy as to what is in the diet. You don't really know for absolutely
positively sure what you are feeding your dog.

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Messages in this topic (13)
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2a. Re: Cutting necks?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:45 am ((PDT))

"Maria" <plava_93@...> wrote:
how do you cut the neck and spine? I'm sure it will
> involve the mighty hack saw but most people say to "Avoid saw cut
> bones".. So what do I do?
****
Well, you can ignore them what say avoid saw cut bones.

Or you can have them saw cut, then smash up the ends a bit to make
them less edgy.

Or you can bash the heck out of the sections you want to separate,
then sort of cut through the debris (I used to do this--successfully--
with pork necks).

Or you could not separate the neck from the spine (they're the same
thing anyway) and let your dogs have a field day on that particular
body part.

I have fed many saw-cut vension necks with absolutely no ill effects.
I have fed sawed lamb shanks with no ill effects. And whole beef
shanks. And pork arm roasts. Perhaps the caution is more relevant to
meatless bones than to meaty bones. Or perhaps feeding body parts
instead of arbitrary lengths of whatever reduces the need for concern.

I know I would HATE to pass up a meaty goat neck or spine because of
cut ends!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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3.1. Re: green tripe
Posted by: "Dave Brown" quahog@netnet.net quahogwi
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:56 am ((PDT))

Freeze dried green tripe is good, but I'd recommend using it only for
special treats when training or other rewardable activities. It's
much too expensive to use as a basic diet staple. Opt for the fresh
if you are looking for any regular feeding of green tripe. But then
again, in the grand scheme of things a 3.8# Maltese doesn't eat a
whole heck of a lot, so you might find freeze dried 100% Green Tripe
affordable.

DAve Brown

At 09:22 AM 9/18/2007, you wrote:

>Hi, can someone please tell me where to buy green tripe. I don't need
>too much at one time. My maltese is 3.8 pounds. I'm confused as to
>which one to order online and can I feed the freeze dried green tripe?
>Thank you
>
>Debbie

Messages in this topic (52)
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3.2. Re: green tripe
Posted by: "Deborah Gordon" gary44deb@yahoo.com gary44deb
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:11 pm ((PDT))

Hi, thank you for your response to the green tripe. I thought I checked greentripe.com and you had to order a very large amount but I will check again. I live in Queens, New York.

Thank you again

Debbie

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3.3. Re: green tripe
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:26 pm ((PDT))

Deborah Gordon <gary44deb@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, thank you for your response to the green tripe. I thought I
checked greentripe.com and you had to order a very large amount but I
will check again. I live in Queens, New York.
*****
Holy moly. There are sources much closer to you than greentripe.com,
which is in California!

What you should do is subscribe to the CarnivoreFeed-Suppliers list
and post that you are looking for a closer source of fresh green
tripe. If you put "fresh green tripe" and "Queens, NY" in the subject
line, you will make it easy for the right people to reply.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (52)
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4a. Re: problems with cheese???
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:28 am ((PDT))

"rbmc1231937" <rbmc1231937@...> wrote:
>
> I know Cheese is not the right think to feed a Dog on raw. What
are
> the problems that a dog may have. I need to convince my husband to
> stop treating my dog with cheese .
*****
It's good you are so conscientious but you don't need to be. Not
all the time at least. There are worse treats than cheese and you
know what? I probably feed them. I feed cheese bits and noodle
bits and bits of lettuce and tomato and cucumber as treats. I feed
ice cubes and pieces of bread as treats. Sometimes licking my goopy
hand is the treat. Sometimes licking the plate is the treat. I
feed kibble samples as treats.

If a treat is used as a special thing (which it should be) then
anything that pleases the dog and doesn't make it sick can be a
treat...obviously this is determined by each dog individually. If a
treat is used as an ordinary (which it ought not be) then perhaps
it's better to tighten up one's indiscriminate use of treats.

Since most trainers encourage heavy food treating at least at first,
maybe a sterner choice of reward food is a good idea. But IMO the
decider should be the dog's desire to work for it and the dog's
ability to digest it. Whether a treat is species appropriate is
perhaps secondary.

You might tell your husband that too much cheese will give the dog
the squirts and will make it fat. Or just tell him to knock it
off. When the dogs are nagging my husband for some of whatever he's
got, he tells them it's not his fault they can't have any and to "go
talk to Mom."
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Re: problems with cheese???
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:30 am ((PDT))

>>I know Cheese is not the right think to feed a Dog on raw. What are
the problems that a dog may have. I need to convince my husband to
stop treating my dog with cheese.<<

Barb -- sometimes I really think we complicate things that don't need to be so. I use string cheese as the "end-all-be-all" favorite treat of my GSD, Holly, at agility training every Thursday. I save it for things that are "issues" for her -- the dreaded dogwalk and on occasion the weave poles. I've done so for over six years. She has no problems with digesting the cheese. She also may get dehydrated salmon, freeze-dried liver, hot dogs, and other assorted treats as I might have in my training bag on the day.
Treats are such a small percentage of what my dogs eat that I just don't make an issue of a treat that isn't "perfect." I've said it before and I'll repeat -- treats can be anything. It's a minor issue in a raw diet.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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Messages in this topic (6)
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4c. Re: problems with cheese???
Posted by: "Dave Brown" quahog@netnet.net quahogwi
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:39 pm ((PDT))

At 12:14 PM 9/18/2007, you wrote:

>I know Cheese is not the right think to feed a Dog on raw.

Why not? Natural cheeses may be technically "processed" (heated to
kill unwanted bacteria), but other than Processed American or maybe
Pasteurize Processed Gruyere, I'd call cheddar "raw" because it is
made with live cultures and rennet. My Maxx, who eats99.9% raw,
loves cheese. As far as I'm concerned it is one of the "right"
things to include (in moderation) for a dog on a raw diet.

Is this considered anathema to the strictest raw feeders? I don't
know. I just know what I think, believe, and do.

Dave Brown
Green Bay, WI

Messages in this topic (6)
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4d. Re: problems with cheese???
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:55 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/18/2007 11:40:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
quahog@netnet.net writes:

My Maxx, who eats99.9% raw,
loves cheese. As far as I'm concerned it is one of the "right"
things to include (in moderation) for a dog on a raw diet.

Dave,

Cheese is Dairy.. made of milk, and dogs quickly become lactose intollerant
after they are weaned. this is why we generally don't include cheese, or
yogurt or cottage cheese or anything made with milk in the regular diet.

as treats, which should be almost nothing compared to the amount of food in
the diet in general, cheese or hotdogs, biscuits.. it's all fair game. Unless
your dog has specific health issues that don't allow even the smallest treat
of something that it may have a reaction to.

Catherine R.

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4e. Re: problems with cheese???
Posted by: "kahonebay" kahonebay@yahoo.com kahonebay
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:29 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for the great laugh Chris! I love it! My husband would give the dogs each a slice of cheese every day, twice a day...he loves to give treats just to give them when they greet him at the backdoor. I finally semi-curbed that. When they are misbehaving he yells for me and says "YOUR dogs are being bad come tell them to stop!". LOL Everyone in our family thinks we love our dogs way too much...I don't think that is possible since we don't have kids!!!
Kris

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
"You might tell your husband that too much cheese will give the dog
the squirts and will make it fat. Or just tell him to knock it
off. When the dogs are nagging my husband for some of whatever he's
got, he tells them it's not his fault they can't have any and to "go
talk to Mom."
Chris O

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5a. Re: Newbie Here
Posted by: "Misty Sargent" jrtlover27@yahoo.com jrtlover27
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:33 am ((PDT))

***TRIMMED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Hey PK,

Did you ask the vet about Salmon oil? I give that to my pack, and as long as you get the coldwater Alaskan salmon oil (not the farmed king), I think it would probably be okay. But I would definitely ask anyway since I'm no doggie heart expert. What I use comes in a liquid oil that you have to keep refrigerated once opened, and I just pump once into their bowl. One pump is about 1 teaspoon full, and mine range in weight from 13-17.5 pounds.

Misty

Messages in this topic (15)
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6a. Re: I'm new with puppy
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:46 am ((PDT))

Hi, Susan!

Don't get too invested in the math!
I post the general guidelines of how to calculate how much to feed a
pup or dog, because new-to-raw people tend to be very dissatisfied
with "Feed as much as needed to keep the dog healthy 'n happy, enough
to grow and maintain, but not too thin nor too fat. Adjust amounts as
necessary". Which is the real answer! But it serves a purpose; it
gives people confidence, gives them a jumping off point and gets them
started feeding raw.

I weighed my dogs, and their food, for about a month, maybe. What you
need to do is learn to trust your common sense, and develop your
'eye'. Get used to looking at your dog and pup critically, running
your hands over them, and feeling of their ribs, and backbone and
hipbones. You want to be able to feel them, but not too much. Every
dog is unique, and pups change daily. What is right for them today may
change tomorrow.
Keep us posted!

TC
Giselle

> Thank you all for your response! We picked up our boy tonight and he
> got his first chicken thigh when we settled in at home. He
> absolutely loved it! I will do the math on the quantities and start
> that tomorrow. Until I can get in a co-op I think I will be buying
> meat daily! What a change from my terrier who only ate 1/2 lb a
> day! Thank you all again for your help!
>
> Susan

Messages in this topic (6)
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7a. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:57 am ((PDT))

Hi, Renate!
Just my 2 cents.
The real learning about feeding raw happens after you start!
If you watch the dogs, they will teach you.
What you learn before that integrates with what their body's responses
tell you. Its a dynamic process.
Don't wait!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
We've been testing the waters and none of them have any
> problem eating any bits of anything that I cut off our food before
cooking,
> so I don't know why I'm hesitating. Keep thinking I need to learn
more...
> Renate

Messages in this topic (6)
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8a. EPI German Shepherd with terrible gas - Ugh!!
Posted by: "Erica Mills" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:32 pm ((PDT))

I was just about to ask the same question! My GSD has terrible gas too! But, he's been eating raw exclusively for over a year now.
Any suggestions for how to keep the smell down?
Thanks!
Erica

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Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: help with doxie, back problem, weight and raw feeding
Posted by: "Pam Staley" pam@tlcnaturally.com mogalone2001
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:33 pm ((PDT))

thanks for the info and so nice to know there are other doxie owners
(chunky doxie owners :->) out there that are doing raw ... my poor
little Benson isn't in as much pain as he was yesterday, but he's not
putting any weight on his right hind leg yet...and he's sleeping so
much...course that's probably the predisone and right now he doesn't
need to be running around.

He ate his raw meat this morning with gusto though :-) ... gave him
some raw beef roast this morning... according to his 'ideal' weight..
he should be getting almost 1/4 lb a day....does that sound right? 3%
x 8 lbs? sure seems like nothing ..... LOL

Pam in MO

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, K Carolyn Ramamurti
<lilith23360@...> wrote:
>
> Welcome, Pam! I'm sure you'll be happy with your decision. This
list-serve has been wonderfully helpful to me.
>
> I have two mini-doxies that I have been raw-feeding since they
came to live here at three months. They are sisters, but one is on
the thin side (I recently wrote the list asking what to feed to put
weight on her). The OTHER one is a little chunk, and I do worry
about future back problems.
>
> Lots and lots of exercise isn't an option for your guy right now,
but I

Messages in this topic (12)
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9b. Re: help with doxie, back problem, weight and raw feeding
Posted by: "K Carolyn Ramamurti" lilith23360@yahoo.com lilith23360
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:07 pm ((PDT))

I am so glad he is doing better and you're right, he probably doesn't need to be running around right now.

The amount you're feeding sounds right per what I've learned on the list -- since I am feeding one skinny dog and a chunky one together, I have not been limiting the amount I feed -- I simply "up" the exercise level (which, unfortunately, you can't do right now....) The girls do at least a mile a day and sometimes, closer to two. I must confess, it has not helped my "chunk" dog look as lean as I would like. She looks like a little body builder -- glossy coat and BIG, rippling muscles. She has the biggest butt, lol, not right for a dachsund, but it really is all muscle.

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10. mistaken post to rawfeeding
Posted by: "Dave Brown" quahog@netnet.net quahogwi
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:37 pm ((PDT))

Chris,

I sent a message that was to go private but it went to the rawfeeding
list by mistake. It contained some advertising and I wonder if you
could delete it for me. The subject line reads "OFF List
- [rawfeeding] green tripe".

I'm sorry if this causes any problems, but please take it off the
list if you can.

Thanks,

Dave Brown
Green Bay, WI

Messages in this topic (1)
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11. Help with new puppies....
Posted by: "Cindy Marabito" doggirl1@earthlink.net rowdycowgirl50
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:41 pm ((PDT))

My sister's rescued dog who had the 7 puppies and I need your
advice...The puppies are 3 weeks old now and the mom is really
getting sick of nursing them. The mom's raw fed and my sister's
trying to come up with something to feed the puppies where they get
enough nourishment. How old should they be to accept ground turkey or
something of that nature...any advice or help you might be able to
give would be very much appreciated...Cindy

Messages in this topic (1)
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