[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12047

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: Andrea
1b. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: Dave Brown
1c. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: katkellm
1d. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
From: caroline gebbie

2a. Re: Turkey Questions
From: Andrea
2b. Re: Turkey Questions
From: costrowski75
2c. Re: Turkey Questions
From: Michael Moore

3. Cutting necks?
From: Maria

4a. Re: Constipation?
From: Andrea

5a. Re: EPI German Shepherd with terrible gas - Ugh!!
From: gr8dnrsq

6.1. green tripe
From: gary44deb
6.2. Re: green tripe
From: Andrea
6.3. Re: green tripe
From: connie

7a. Re: newbie - with problems
From: katkellm

8a. Cheese???
From: dupontracefan
8b. Re: Cheese???
From: Maria
8c. Re: Cheese???
From: Sonja
8d. Re: Cheese???
From: mgitaville

9. update on Cairn puppy that would not eat
From: Peter Hartman

10a. Re: Newbie Here
From: PK Shader
10b. Re: Newbie Here
From: Andrea

11a. Re: Goat - how to order
From: marblekallie

12a. Re: New and just started
From: costrowski75

13a. Re: help with doxie, back problem, weight and raw feeding
From: K Carolyn Ramamurti

14. problems with cheese???
From: rbmc1231937

Messages
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1a. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:50 am ((PDT))

I think one of the reasons we don't talk about boneless meals a lot
is because most new people are most afraid of the bones and confused
about what bone is edible etc. Keep in mind that "meat" is pretty
much anything that isn't bone or organ, so that includes skin, fat,
cartilage, hair, etc. That said, my most successful meaty meals come
from tongue and heart. I consider green tripe as a meat, but I don't
feed it that often. Pork shoulder is considered a meaty meal half
the time when the boys decide they would rather play tug of war with
the bone than eat it.

Don't worry too much about feeding exactly 80% meat, just keep in
mind you want to feed mostly meat. And as you add more meat to the
diet keep an eye on your dog's stools. Some dogs need lots more bone
than others in order to have non-liquid poos. Look for meaty bones
where you can't tell where the bone is.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "morkydzgrl" <ShankMa4@...> wrote:

> Now I see that only 10% of diet is bone and 10% is organ. That
> leaves 80% meat. That is a big portion --80%. How come we aren't
> talking more about boneless meals?
>
> Any suggestions, tips, education on how to feed 80% boneless
> meals?

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "Dave Brown" quahog@netnet.net quahogwi
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:04 am ((PDT))

Because the bones are a necessary part of the meal. They contain
things (e.g. trace minerals and such) that contribute to the dog's
overall health.

I feed a ground, fresh frozen, commercial raw diet that has bone,
muscle meat, organ meat, etc.... it has the bone/meat balance
already done for me. I still give Maxx bones on the side and
occasional boneless meals.

Don't worry about maintaining the 80/20 balance at every meal. It's
an overall guideline, not an inviolable rule on a meal to meal or
even a day to day requirements.

Dave

At 07:33 AM 9/18/2007, you wrote:
>. How come we aren't talking more
>about boneless meals?
>
>Any suggestions, tips, education on how to feed 80% boneless meals?
>Are people feeding 80% boneless meals?
>
>Thank you!
>
>Cindi

Dave Brown
Green Bay, WI

Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:34 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "morkydzgrl" <ShankMa4@...> wrote:

> Any suggestions, tips, education on how to feed 80% boneless meals?
> Are people feeding 80% boneless meals?

Hi Cindi,
I think that this is where the phrase "balance over time" really plays
out. The chicken meal that is 26% bone today is balanced by
tomorrow's meal of beef hearts or the all meatless meals i fed a few
days down the road followed by the too heavy turkey quarter the next
week. So, yes, i'm feeding 80% meat, but not 80% of my meals are
necessarily boneless. I remember being surprised that chicken wasn't
10% bone, seemed to me like 10%. My light bulb moment occurred when i
tried to cut through a pork roast which i thought was boneless and
there hidden at the bottom of the roast was this L shaped bone buried
under all the meat. You are right, imo, that the term "raw meaty
bone" is confusing. I think the term "prey model" paints a better
visual for most people. KathyM

Messages in this topic (5)
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1d. Re: boneless meals/what to feed?
Posted by: "caroline gebbie" caz320ml@yahoo.com caz320ml
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:25 am ((PDT))

Hi Dave
Very new to this and was thinking of feeding a frozen commercial diet such as prize choice and giving the occassional half chicken and bone to chew on. Is this what you do? And what commercial diet do you feed?

I am in the UK so not sure where you are.

Thanks
Caroline

Dave Brown <quahog@netnet.net> wrote:

I feed a ground, fresh frozen, commercial raw diet that has bone,
muscle meat, organ meat, etc.... it has the bone/meat balance
already done for me. I still give Maxx bones on the side and
occasional boneless meals.

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Turkey Questions
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:22 am ((PDT))

Hi, Greg, I'm jealous you are so close to a turkey farm! All of the
turkey is good eating for the dogs. If you can get whole ones that
would be best, but for a Corgi you could use any piece they want to
give you. If you get backs you would need to add more meat to the
party, and necks could use more meat too. My dogs are too big to be
trusted with turkey necks, but a Corgi should be fine, assuming she
isn't a gulper.

Any protein you choose is a good starter meat. It is just a matter
of getting digestive juices up to snuff before adding in new things.
Poultry is good also because it has lots of edible bones and are
pretty lean, both of which reduce the chance of loose stools.

So far I haven't had any luck with meat markets giving over meat that
has passed it's sell by date. I'm sure they are afraid I'll try to
eat it or something. But it never hurts to ask, you might get
lucky. If it is a real butcher that cuts up their own animals you
can ask to go through their discard barrel for organs and such. If
they just repackage meat you can ask them to order bulk cases for
you. The only thing you should stay away from is bare naked bones.

Changing up the feeding schedule is a great idea. One way of
changing to once a day is slowly increasing the size of one meal
while the other gets smaller, eventually you just stop feeding the
small meal. You can also start feeding the two meals at random times
so the dog stops expecting food at certain times of the day. Once
there is no set "feeding time" you are free to give a meal whenever
you want to. Hope that helps you.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Falken" <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> What turkey parts should we ask about that would be good for a 30-
> 35 lb. dog? Would turkey be just as good to start out on as
> chicken? We also have a local market with a meat department. Should
> we just ask them what parts they usually discard?
<snip>
>If the dog is used to eating twice a day, what's the best way to
> transition to a once a day diet?

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: Turkey Questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:49 am ((PDT))

"Greg Falken" <yahoo@...> wrote:
our town has a turkey ranch that raises free-range
> turkeys (Diestel Farms).
*****
These are gooood turkeys! After Christmas last year I was able to
buy several Diestels from Raleys for .29/lb. A fine present, I'd say.

What turkey parts should we ask about that
> would be good for a 30-35 lb. dog? Would turkey be just as good to
start
> out on as chicken?
*****
A 30-35lb dog should be able to do justice to most any part. If you
are intent upon buying parts instead of wholes, you can consider legs
and thighs and necks and backs and wings and breasts. Which is sorta
kinda like the whole bird. Perhaps you can buy a whole bird and have
them quarter it for a. easier stashing and b. you to cut into smaller
hunks as needed. Get the heart, liver and gizzard, too!

Since the breasts are huge, I usually hack much of the meat from the
breastbone, then feed the meat over time with added beef heart or
other red meat.

Go for some big parts; don't buy ground stuff. Let your pupster
wrestle with its food when you can. It's fun for the pup, it's fun
for you.

Turkey is fine for starting out. There's nothing magic about chicken
except price and if you can buy turkey reasonably from Diestel, by
all means do.

We also have a local market with a meat department.
> Should we just ask them what parts they usually discard? The choices
> seem a bit overwhelming.
*****
Since meat guys pride themselves on leaving no meat behind, I would
not recommend discards because they will likely be of little value to
your dog. Trim from precut meats usually goes into ground meat
or "saw dust" which is mostly fat. OTOH, if your meat market cuts
its own meat in the back (I mean they get a dressed whole or a half
steer or pig and part it out) you may be able to get some decent trim
from them (ask for a looksee before you buy).

You do not want bare bones regardless of how the Meat Dude recommends
them. You want meat with some bone in it, not bone with some meat on
it. Or just meat. "Just meat" is a good thing. The abundance of
meat should drive your purchase decisions, not the name or size of
the bone. Go for cheap meat. Cheap bones are rarely worth it.

If you are overwhelmed, take notes, make a list of what is available,
write to us and we'll help ya out. Cross my heart.

>If the dog is used to eating twice a day, what's
> the best way to transition to a once a day diet?
*****
IMO pups should eat two or three times a day depending on age (and of
course any health issues). I usually move my pups to twice a day at
16 weeks, then to one meal somewhere around 10 months, depending on
the pup's ability to effectively process a day's worth of food in one
meal. Some pups cannot. At this point, the pup's nourishment is more
important than your convenience. Later, when the kid has shown a
clear ability to eat and appropriately digest one big meal, you're
both good to go.

Moving an adult to one meal is pretty much the same process. A dog
new to raw food should probably be transitioned with some finesse,
since everything will be new all new. A dog accustomed to raw food
should be able to move to one daily meal in short order; maybe a week
or two? Again, the dog's ability to effectively process all the food
in one meal is--at least IMO--the most important consideration.

I usually make one meal smaller while increasing the size of the
other meal until one of the two meals is little more than a snack.
Sometimes I feed a larger am meal, sometimes I feed a larger pm
meal. I try not to estblish a pattern, so that when I am feeding one
meal a day the dog doesn't expect food at a particular time.

Moving to one meal a day is the PERFECT time to stop feeding by the
clock, if you are doing so. Once the dog is on one meal, mix up
feeding times...once the dog is on one meal, you can indeed feed for
your convenience!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: Turkey Questions
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

>>We haven't started feeding raw yet, for the simple reason that our
adopted Corgi doesn't arrive until Friday. We're researching food
sources now and our town has a turkey ranch that raises free-range
turkeys (Diestel Farms). What turkey parts should we ask about that
would be good for a 30-35 lb. dog? Would turkey be just as good to start
out on as chicken? We also have a local market with a meat department.
Should we just ask them what parts they usually discard? The choices
seem a bit overwhelming.<<

Greg - any/all parts of a turkey are edible for most dogs. If your Corgi isn't *used* to eating raw, turkey may prove a little more intimidating than chicken as the bones are harder, but it's fine to start with otherwise. I'm not lucky enough to find free-range turkey, so I buy turkey mostly at holiday time when the good sales are on.
You may find that the "local market with a meat department" won't have any parts they discard. At least around here, those type of places don't get whole animals. You'll have better luck with a butcher for that kind of thing. And, BTW, if you tell uninformed folks that you want what they "discard," you'll end up with a bunch of naked bones. OTH, if you find a butcher, you can ask for beef heart --a great source of beef muscle meat -- and usually get it at a reasonable price. I tell butchers, etc., originally, that I "make my own dog food," and have less problems with well-intentioned advice.
And, yes, it *is* overwhelming when you start out; it will get easier, I promise. Keep it simple -- stick to one protein for a week or two, and gradually add in one proteins, one at a time. Hold off on organs for a while as they are rich and can cause loose stools. I start new-to-raw dogs with a mere thumbnail sized portion of liver, for example, after several weeks on raw.

>>Oh yes, one more thing. If the dog is used to eating twice a day, what's
the best way to transition to a once a day diet? This is purely for our
convenience but it would sure make things easier.<<

Well, Corgis are the original Hoover dogs, and they *always* think they're starving, but mine have adjusted easily to once daily feedings. I got the "pathetic, starving dogs" look for several mornings, but I just went about my business and ignored them. I like once daily feedings not only for the convenience, but additionally, I can give bigger pieces of food, which brings multiple benefits.
Have fun with your new adoptee, and let me know if I can be of help. We've had Corgis for over 20 yrs., and have rawfed for over six.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3. Cutting necks?
Posted by: "Maria" plava_93@yahoo.com plava_93
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:22 am ((PDT))

In a couple days I will be butchering 3 goats. I know that things like
shoulders, "thighs" and ribs can be removed without interfering with
the bone but how do you cut the neck and spine? I'm sure it will
involve the mighty hack saw but most people say to "Avoid saw cut
bones".. So what do I do?

Thanks!
Maria

Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: Constipation?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:24 am ((PDT))

Well, coming off of eating a food like substance like Ol' Roy,
Darwin's body is probably starving for nutrients. He's probably
using up everything that he is eating. That said, depending on the
size of the chicken breast, you probably want to let him eat more
food. He should be eating around 1.5 lbs a day, and it sounds like
he's getting less. I wouldn't get too worried just yet, you don't
want to add lubricating agents and end up with cannon butt.

Once you are sure he's digesting ok I would give him chicken quarters
so that he doesn't have the option of swallowing his food whole.
Other than that, it sounds like you guys are doing really well. Let
us know how it goes.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Shannon Hully" <summerwolf@...>
wrote:

> I've been giving him breast in the morning and drumstick at night
> both days following that. He had a bowel movement Saturday night
> (getting rid of the last of the ki**le from his system) but has not
> done so since.
<snip>
> My question is this: How long do I continue to feed him and assume
> it's just that he's eating less bulk and will take a little while
> to work its way through his system?
<snip snip>
> Yesterday Darwin (the Greyhound) was a bit over-enthusiastic about
> swallowing his bone and had to cough it back up to make it
> smaller.

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: EPI German Shepherd with terrible gas - Ugh!!
Posted by: "gr8dnrsq" gr8dnrsq@comcast.net gr8dnrsq
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:25 am ((PDT))

Hi Steve

Id recommend joining k9EPIGLOBAL yahoo list, many of us EPI'ers feed
raw, just have to figure out the balance of meat/fat plus enzymes.

My Diesel is a 160lb great dane so I can sympathize with the clearing
of the room.....or rooms <:-o

Lori and Diesel (dx oral melanoma, EPI, suffered FCE, raw fed)

Messages in this topic (2)
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6.1. green tripe
Posted by: "gary44deb" gary44deb@yahoo.com gary44deb
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:51 am ((PDT))

Hi, can someone please tell me where to buy green tripe. I don't need
too much at one time. My maltese is 3.8 pounds. I'm confused as to
which one to order online and can I feed the freeze dried green tripe?
Thank you

Debbie

Messages in this topic (49)
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6.2. Re: green tripe
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:05 am ((PDT))

It depends on where you live really. I live in California so I get my
stuff from greentripe.com a lot of the other places are just too
expensive to ship from. I get the regular tripe without anything
added. If your maltese is fussy with organs green tripe is a good way
to hide them. Since I can get the real stuff for relatively cheap I've
never tried the freeze dried or canned stuff. Where do you live?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "gary44deb" <gary44deb@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, can someone please tell me where to buy green tripe.

Messages in this topic (49)
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6.3. Re: green tripe
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "gary44deb" <gary44deb@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, can someone please tell me where to buy green tripe. >
> Debbie
>
Hi Debbie,
I order tripe from Hare today http://www.hare-today.com/ You can order
as much as you need and just divide it up into serving sizes and freeze
that way in small baggies. I also give the freeze dried. I do a
everyother day thing. It also depends on where you live aas far as
ordering. You want to make sure the shipping is reasonable.
Greentripe.com aslo sells it.
~connie~
www.justbullies.com

Messages in this topic (49)
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7a. Re: newbie - with problems
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:54 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "m0v1efan" <susanbrown@...> wrote:
> So do I just cut it in half and give it to the girls? Or I think I
> read someone saying a whole chicken should do five feedings?
> Both of my girls are around 70 pounds.

Hi Susie,
I feel like i'm back in school again and going to flunk the math test
because i have never been blessed with the gift of figurin, but at 2%
of 70lbs. you should be feeding,according to my math, in the
neighborhood of 1 and half to two pounds per dog per day. The amount
doesn't have to be exact at each meal. A little less today can be
made up with a little more food tomorrow. You can always adjust the
amount as time goes on if you see your girls gaining/losing weight.
So, depending on the weight of the bird, you got it right, just cut it
in half and feed. Five feedings out of a chicken would have to be for
a small dog. As far as the chicken buying goes, as long as the bird
isn't enhanced with anything, it is fine to feed. Lately, the
chickens i have found on sale don't even come with the little pouch
that has the heart and such in it. Good Luck, KathyM

Messages in this topic (7)
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8a. Cheese???
Posted by: "dupontracefan" dupontracefan@yahoo.com dupontracefan
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:03 am ((PDT))

My puppy starts therapy training today and the instructor does not
allow me to bring say cut up chicken for rewards in training she only
wants you to bring cheese bites and I didn't know if cheese is ok and
if so is there one that is better than another???
Thanks,
Diane

Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: Cheese???
Posted by: "Maria" plava_93@yahoo.com plava_93
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:34 am ((PDT))

Can you use dyhydrated stuff? I know it is "cooked" but it is better
then cheese. You can get "Dehydrated Ground Goat" from Hare-Today,
that would work well.

HTH!
Maria
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dupontracefan" <dupontracefan@...>
wrote:
>
> My puppy starts therapy training today and the instructor does not
> allow me to bring say cut up chicken for rewards in training she only
> wants you to bring cheese bites and I didn't know if cheese is ok and
> if so is there one that is better than another???
> Thanks,
> Diane
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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8c. Re: Cheese???
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:34 am ((PDT))

I would used cooked or dehydrated chicken (or any dehydrated meat) and tell the instructor that my dog is severely allergic to dairy products. :-) I've never had a problem telling a trainer that my dog can't eat certain things, usually they're understanding, particularly if you bring up a medical issue.

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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8d. Re: Cheese???
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dupontracefan" <dupontracefan@...>
wrote:
>
> My puppy starts therapy training today and the instructor does not
> allow me to bring say cut up chicken for rewards in training she only
> wants you to bring cheese bites and I didn't know if cheese is ok and
> if so is there one that is better than another???
> Thanks,
> Diane
>

******Not sure why the trainer would "only" allow cheese especially
given that many dogs do not tolerate dairy well. However, with that
said I don't see any reason chesse can't be used. I have used cheese
and leftover (aka starting to spoil) deli meat as training treats in
the past. I used whatever I had at the time that was not a soft
cheese. As I mentioned above, just watch your pup to make sure that
he/she can tolerate the dairy.

Marguerita

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9. update on Cairn puppy that would not eat
Posted by: "Peter Hartman" onesojourner@gmail.com one_sojourner_one
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:55 am ((PDT))

I went with one raw egg and a small shredded chicken breast all mixed with
some garlic powder. He did not eat at his normal dinner time but we tried
again at about 10 and he ate a good chunk of it. He ate the other half of
that this morning. This gives me hope that he may be warming up to the idea
of actually eating something that is good for him. hopefully this trend will
continue and I can start branching out his diet. I am going to shoot for a
few solid days of eating bone free chicken and then try adding something
like chicken wings. Does this sound like a reasonable plan of attack?

-peter

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: Newbie Here
Posted by: "PK Shader" Forloveofdogs@gmail.com forloveofdogs
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:34 am ((PDT))

I just wanted to thank everyone for their timely suggestions. I
appreciate the help. Homey is not strong enough to rip off flesh.
His symptoms did not come on slowly (so not CDS) but all at once
accompanied by a right pupil which would not dilate, fearful
confusion, incontinence and alleged kidney failure.

So rabbit and any other meats high in phosphorus are out. Although he
has been receiving garlic his entire life I will take him off of it as
soon as the murderous mosquitoes are gone. I don't want to take him
"cold turkey" off the probiotics so do you think I could substitute
organic kefir or yogurt instead? If so how much daily? It was my
understanding that the enzymatic change was largest contributor to
keeping the dog's teeth clean on a raw diet and not only the bone
chewing was this incorrect? I can have his teeth cleaned but because
of his cognitive condition sedating is risky. I will try first
myself. I know that if the teeth are scraped and not polished they are
left with little fissures or scratches that attract tartar so does
anyone have suggestions on how to polish his teeth after they have
been scraped?

And lastly, I have given Homey sardines and mackerel because I was
told by a couple of doctors that too high a dose of cod liver oil
could damage the heart. Not knowing whether that was true or not and
if it was just specific to cod liver oil, this made me a little
nervous about "fish oils" in general. So can anyone tell me the safe
dose for a 17 pound dog?

Questions, questions. Thanks again for all your help.

PK and Homey Jack

Messages in this topic (14)
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10b. Re: Newbie Here
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:23 am ((PDT))

Poor Homey, sounds like he's been through the wringer. If his jaw
strength isn't what it could be, cornish game hens might be great for
him. The meat and bone on them are extremely soft. When I don't
feel like dirtying up a knife I have been known to pull a cornish
game hen apart with my hands (and I'm far from burly).

Maybe you can give Homey a smaller dose of probiotics or on a less
regular basis in order to try and wean him off of them. I've never
had any luck with yogurt or kefir except to create loose stools.

I don't know anything about the enzymatic cleaning of teeth, though.
I've heard some ex B*RF feeders say after they switched to prey model
their dogs had much cleaner teeth and sweeter breath, though.

You are right to stay away from cod liver oil, it has a lot of
vitamins A and D which can accumulate to toxic levels if too much is
given. Fish body oil on the other hand has the good O3's without the
vitamins.

You can't really overdose on fish oil except that lots of it would
probably cause cannon butt. Generally you want to find 1000mg
capsules that have at least 180mg EPA and 120mg DHA in them. For a
maintenance dose you would give a capsule for every 20lbs of dog.
Theraputic dose would be twice that, or a capsule for every 10lbs.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "PK Shader" <Forloveofdogs@...>
wrote:

> I don't want to take him "cold turkey" off the probiotics so do you
> think I could substitute organic kefir or yogurt instead?
<snip>
> And lastly, I have given Homey sardines and mackerel because I was
> told by a couple of doctors that too high a dose of cod liver oil
> could damage the heart. Not knowing whether that was true or not
> and if it was just specific to cod liver oil, this made me a little
> nervous about "fish oils" in general. So can anyone tell me the
> safe dose for a 17 pound dog?

Messages in this topic (14)
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11a. Re: Goat - how to order
Posted by: "marblekallie" marble@pipeline.com marblekallie
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

Chris:

Thanks! The last time I got human butcher type cuts and they were
either too small or too big, so I wasn't sure.

Philippa

> Cool!
> I have ordered goat cut into 4" - 6" hunks (for others, not for my
> dogs!) which added .15/lb to the price but seems to work nicely for
> those who preferred to feed smaller goat parts. I'd think that would
> be a useful size even for your wee ones.

Messages in this topic (3)
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12a. Re: New and just started
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:07 am ((PDT))

"Virginia Snider" <vsnider@...> wrote:
> I started him with chicken and he gobbled it up, added some eggs,
then beef.
> Today he had Duck Hearts and was going crazy dancing around as
soon as he
> got a whiff. For treats he has been getting dehydrated Bison
Hearts.
*****
You might want to slow down, simplify, reduce variety unless you've
been feeding this melange for a while and he continues without
incident. If/when the digestive blow out occurs, it's okay. Just
slow down and simplify until things settle again.

>It really is a relief to see him eating again,
> (with Gusto), and now he sleeps and doesn't stare at me with those
woeful
> hungry eyes. His energy has zoomed up and he actually ran around
in huge
> circle sweeps in the yard, which I had never seen him do, now he
wants to
> run.
*****
This is fabulous! Talk about the right thing at the right time.
Congratulations.

> he doesn't want to eat anything if it is cold.
*****
Fine. Take it out earlier, take it out the night before. My dogs
eat anything but I rarely feed them food just out of the fridge.

I also tried giving him a fresh fish, (not Tilapia), but
> he was not interested in it at all - is there a preferred fish
most dogs
> enjoy or is an easy start?
*****
Raw sardines and small mackerel might be more interesting, also
consider trout or perch or other smallish fishies--even raw
anchovies. Or try catfish nuggets or quick frozen pollock, whiting
or cod if you don't mind not feeding whole fish.

Don't worry too much about fish. Sounds like you've got a good
amount of protein variety so if it takes a while to get him
interested in fish, 'tain't no big deal.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. Re: help with doxie, back problem, weight and raw feeding
Posted by: "K Carolyn Ramamurti" lilith23360@yahoo.com lilith23360
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:23 am ((PDT))

Welcome, Pam! I'm sure you'll be happy with your decision. This list-serve has been wonderfully helpful to me.

I have two mini-doxies that I have been raw-feeding since they came to live here at three months. They are sisters, but one is on the thin side (I recently wrote the list asking what to feed to put weight on her). The OTHER one is a little chunk, and I do worry about future back problems.

Lots and lots of exercise isn't an option for your guy right now, but I'm sure you'll be better off with a raw diet which gives your dog the nutrients he needs instead of kibble with a lot of extra, fattening junk in it.

I started with chicken, too, but no need to just feed backs -- my two can demolish a whole chicken in about three days. They do like everything fresh, so I break the bird up a little: usually, I start with wings which I cut at the joint so there's quite a bit of meat on the end, then thighs (detached the same way). The body, I just break into two pieces since there are two dogs (I wouldn't do this for one). What they don't eat, I pick up and refrigerate for their next meal. Since this isn't a restaurant and I work hard for my $, nothing gets thrown away: they eat it at successive meals until it's gone.

Game hen, or smaller birds, are probably their favorite food. Other stuff they love: beef shortribs, pork ribs cut any which way, and lamb (but avoid the large, weight-bearing bones). The chunky dog loves fish (I like tilapia, for environmental reasons), but the skinny one won't touch it. Turkey is not a favorite with them, but if it were, I would feed it. You'll read on the list that the bigger the piece of meat, the better and that's so true: turkey was one of the first meals these two ate when they were little, tiny pups, and I only "halved" it -- the chunk of meat was much bigger than both of them put together!

The list-serve has sold me on pork butts and picnic roasts for "meaty" meals, so I feed it, but that can be something of a power struggle: they like stuff with bone in it.

I would try pork, beef or lamb next, working one new thing at a time into your doxie's diet so that if something disagrees with him, you can figure out what it is. Of course, he will need organ meat, but I waited awhile to work that into my dogs' diet. They were already eating beef. lamb and pork with no problems when I started working organs into their diets.

I was advised to feed green tripe to the skinny dog to get some weight on her, so you might not want to overdo on that when you start feeding organs.

I never feed veggies as part of a meal, but if I am cooking and they act interested, I will share little pieces with them (I am vegetarian). They get the spines from lettuce, parsley stalks, bits of tomato, etc. Sometimes they eat a piece or two, sometimes they just chew on it a bit and make it into a big, salad-y mess on the kitchen floor.

Hope this helps! I am a relative "newbie" and not nearly as knowledgeable as the other people on this list, but I can attest to how well a mini-doxie can do on this diet.

Carolyn Ramamurti, Sophie and Elsie in Seattle

Pam Staley <pam@tlcnaturally.com> wrote:
ok....I've decided I'm going raw - we started yesterday - I have a 12
lb mini doxie that is probably at least 4lbs overweight - know that
does't sound like much - but its a LOT on this little guy - and due
to a back injury he had in July we have to get some weight off of
him. He just hurt himself again Sat and now can't put any weight on
his right hind foot and he yelps in pain when you pick him up
'wrong'. The vet has him on predizone (?) for the next few days to
ease the pain and then we'll see....I am hoping he doesn't need back
surgery - but we'll cross that bridge when we have to. Anyway, both
my dogs (my GS Moriah and doxie - Benson) love raw chicken -so we're
beginning with that. I've made a lot of calls this morning to various
local meat markets and none of them sell 'extra' meat that they would
actually not use - will look into the smaller grocery stores and see
if I can get day old or bags of backs or something - but for right
now I'm using what I have in my own freezer.

Anyway - I'm wondering if one type of food/organ/ect..would be better
at this point for my little doxie and if there are any of you out
there with doxies - do you add any glucosamine or anything? I'd sure
like to tackle this situation a little more naturally if possible.

thanks for listening....Pam
Missouri

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Messages in this topic (10)
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14. problems with cheese???
Posted by: "rbmc1231937" rbmc1231937@yahoo.com rbmc1231937
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:25 am ((PDT))

I know Cheese is not the right think to feed a Dog on raw. What are
the problems that a dog may have. I need to convince my husband to
stop treating my dog with cheese . Barb&Reily

Messages in this topic (1)
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