[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11913

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. info
From: scarebetty

2a. Good source for Omega 3 and Glucosamine?
From: salinastarroute
2b. Re: Good source for Omega 3 and Glucosamine?
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: feeding beef
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: probiotics or just transition time
From: Loretta Luja

5a. lamb neck bones
From: Sue
5b. Re: lamb neck bones
From: ginny wilken
5c. Re: lamb neck bones
From: Jen

6. Re: rawfeeding wild rabbit and squirrel....
From: JOHN PFAFF

7a. Re: probiotics
From: Sonja
7b. Re: probiotics
From: Felicia Kost

8. Re: introducing beef
From: Michael Moore

9.1. veggies
From: schottscrazyzoo
9.2. Re: veggies
From: Nathalie Poulin
9.3. Re: veggies
From: Andrea
9.4. Re: veggies
From: tottime47

10a. raw and sick
From: barkalot62
10b. Re: raw and sick
From: Andrea

11. adding fish to diet.........
From: mgn_moore

12a. Re: RAW Feeding and stools
From: tottime47

13a. Re: Just started feeding raw
From: Morledzep@aol.com

14. how can i entice my dog to eat organs?
From: deep_ocean_of_sorrow

15a. Re: whole chicken tonight??
From: sillypoodle2003

16a. Re: weight of food or feeding small dogs
From: tottime47

17a. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
From: blechatlb@aol.com

Messages
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1. info
Posted by: "scarebetty" scarebetty@yahoo.com scarebetty
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:59 am ((PDT))

I am looking for some clear, concise info to give the new owners of my
puppies. I have "Work Wonders" and "Raw Meaty Bones" by Tom Lonsdale,
but I dont think that the info in either of those books is quite what
I am looking for. I would like something that is easy to understand
from the point of view of a new puppy owner and new to feeding raw
meaty bones. I am going to suggest the books and the websites, along
with info on joining this group. I can type up some info, but I am
pretty new at this raw feeding and am still unsure of myself when I am
feeding my pups. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Betty

Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Good source for Omega 3 and Glucosamine?
Posted by: "salinastarroute" rbee29@gmail.com salinastarroute
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:24 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

Since feeding raw began 3 weeks ago I feel like the dog's coats have
been getting a little dry. They have so far turned their nose up at
fish so is their another alternative to getting them the Omega 3's?
Also what is the best raw source for glucosamine?
Thanks!

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Good source for Omega 3 and Glucosamine?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:49 am ((PDT))

"salinastarroute" <rbee29@...> wrote:
> Since feeding raw began 3 weeks ago I feel like the dog's coats have
> been getting a little dry.
*****
Fish is not generally an adequate answer. What all have you been
feeding them? Any other new events in their lives to take into account?

is their another alternative to getting them the Omega 3's?
*****
You would do better giving them fish body oil or salmon oils
caps/liquid unless you can rely on grassfed livestock and freerange
poultry. It is entirely possible to deliver appropriate amounts of O3
via diet, but you have to feed the right foods.

The fish that provide good levels of dietary O3 are salmon, trout,
sardines, herring, mackerel and anchovy. Other fish can offer high
quality protein variety but shouldn't be relied on for O3 support.

> Also what is the best raw source for glucosamine?
*****
Therapeutic doses would best come from a supplement; otherwise, all
joints and other body parts containing cartilage offer naturally
occurring chondroitin and glucosamine.
Chris O

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3a. Re: feeding beef
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:39 am ((PDT))

"Becky Brooks (Marsh)" <kidcreations1@...> wrote:
>
> We have been feeding our dogs raw for about 2 months and would like to
> introduce beef. What would be a good, relatively inexpensive beef to
> start out with?
*****
Follow the sales! You never know what will turn up cheap.

Around here--retail--chuck roasts are often on sale for not so much
over a dollar a pound; brisket is sometimes inexpensive; sometimes--to
get beef protein into the dog--ground beef may be a reasonable choice.

If you have access to a meat wholesaler, you may have access to cheap
beef: here in Sacramento a local wholesaler recently blew out several
cases of "expired" beef for .50/lb. And beef heart is usually a good
bet for high quality, inexpensive beef.

With beef, I'll feed anything boneless as long as it's cheap.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: probiotics or just transition time
Posted by: "Loretta Luja" luja@comcast.net desertwilite
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:41 am ((PDT))

>
> @How long have you been feeding raw, how long have you been feeding
> chicken and what sort of chicken meals are you feeding? How much do
> you feed of what? What sort of dogs are you feeding?
>
> Details, we need details!
>

,___About 2 weeks ago, before I started anything raw,
both dogs (8 year Afghan-60lb, + 14 month Afghan-40lb)
had diarrhea and some vomiting (2 days of this which is rare)
so they fasted a day and went back to eating their ki**le. Now
I have been interested in feeding raw and first read about the
pre made ground stuff with veggies.Way too expensive and
my dogs don't really like veggies so why should I feed it? I was
still looking for answers. I found this forum about the time I was
throwing in a chicken wing(or 2)just to "see what would happen". I was
still feeding ki**le at night and wings in the morning. OK so I see
that wasn't the smartest thing to do after reading a few posts. The
older dog threw up a section of bone but all else seemed well. My
younger one had erratic poo- sometimes formed and sometimes
runny with pieces of bone.
Now starting Sunday, they were cut off ki**le and fed quarter
chickens once a day. I watch them eat and both of them take
their time crunching and chewing. Katie (youngest) has been
waking up several times a night and seems very uncomfortable:
standing up and leaning on the wall in her crate and panting.
So Monday night she had watery/with bone fragment poo on
the floor and last night she was taken outside and didn't go
until this morning when her poo was watery with a little solid
(also bone fragments) Tiggie (older dog) hasn't pood since Monday
so I'm not sure about him yet-he is acting normal (couch potato)
Katie's poo is sooooooo rank too. Is this normal? Is there anything
I could do to make the transition more comfortable? They both
seem to enjoy eating their new diet but this night time is really
concerning us.

Loretta L

Messages in this topic (19)
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5a. lamb neck bones
Posted by: "Sue" fordogs@ptd.net agiledogs2000
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:41 am ((PDT))

Thanks for your responses. Another thing I want to question about
theses necks is that they didn't look like what I expected. First off,
they had hardly any meat on them and secondly they looked more like
spine and rib bones. Since I've never gotten these before I didn't
know what the bones looked like in the neck. It was a lot more bone
than I felt there should be so I gave each dog a half of a boneless
chicken breast along with a small piece of liver and a tripe chunk. I
had gotten the necks along with a bunch of other meat from Top Quality
Dog Food from Maryland, I guess next time I'll know what kind of
questions to ask. And Laurie, my dogs are between 50 and 60 lbs so
they're certainly not small, I guess with more time they'll do better
with larger bones.
Sue & the Aussies

Messages in this topic (14)
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5b. Re: lamb neck bones
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:07 pm ((PDT))

On Aug 15, 2007, at 11:24 AM, Sue wrote:

> ..First off,
> they had hardly any meat on them and secondly they looked more like
> spine and rib bones. Since I've never gotten these before I didn't
> know what the bones looked like in the neck.

Well, necks are always gonna be bony, but in our neck of the woods
the processors sometimes throw in the portion of the backbone trimmed
from the breast end of the chicken. These look like straight bony
sticks, with perhaps a tiny strip of skin on one side, and little
protrusions where the ribs were cut through. Probably no worse, but
certainly no better than necks themselves. You done good adding meat!

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (14)
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5c. Re: lamb neck bones
Posted by: "Jen" jboydmorin@gmail.com choirgirl_21
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:09 pm ((PDT))

Hi Sue,

I order most of my meat from Peter. He is really great, if you are
unsure about what you got from him, do ask him. He's really
knowledgeable about raw feeding and willing to help. Aside from that,
I'd recommend getting the whole lamb necks he sells rather than the
bones. At $1.35/lb they're my absolute favorite cut to feed. It's
the entire neck bone wrapped in meat and surrounded by a layer of fat.
For my dogs it's the perfect meat:bone ratio - they have the best
stool after eating those.

The necks are about 3 lbs each and it takes my dogs about an hour to
eat one.

FYI, he's sometimes low on those so you may have to ask ahead.

Jen

Messages in this topic (14)
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6. Re: rawfeeding wild rabbit and squirrel....
Posted by: "JOHN PFAFF" johnpfaff@comcast.net rawfeednewbie
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:47 am ((PDT))

....will fresh rabbit and squirrel pose a danger to my rott pup? I intend to thoroughly freeze the meat beforehand to kill parasites. Any comments will be appreciated.
John. :)
JOHN PFAFF

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7a. Re: probiotics
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:00 pm ((PDT))

I've used the entire Nzymes line with great success to help lessen her reactions to kibble (when she was eating kibble.....). The probiotics are what they call "BacPak Plus". www.nzymes.com

I've also heard good things about Nature's Farmacy. http://www.naturesfarmacy.com/catalog.pdf

I have to note, that since my dog has been on raw, she has not needed any supplements....this was a HUGE step in her life considering she was truly dependent on them!

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (10)
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7b. Re: probiotics
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:23 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE: SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!

I to have used the entire Nzymes line with great success, but no longer since raw. Also the Biopet company is very helpful with suggestions!

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Messages in this topic (10)
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8. Re: introducing beef
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:24 pm ((PDT))

>>We have been feeding our dogs raw for about 2 months and would like to introduce beef. What would be a good, relatively inexpensive beef to start out with? So far they eat turkey legs, chicken leg quarters, halved chickens, pork ribs and butt roast, chicken gizzards and hearts, and chicken liver. I'm just not sure what type of beef to buy. thanks!<<

Becky -- beef is usually waaaaay out of my price range. The exception is beef heart, which I can routinely buy at .99/lb. and occasionally at .79/lb. This is normally the only beef my dogs get. Beef heart is, for rawfeeding purposes, a muscle meat, and serves that function in my dogs' diet.
If your budget allows, just about any beef will do. I can (rarely) find a nice roast of some sort that's marked down just before its expiration date, and will grab it. Beyond that, I reserve my doggy food dollars for more affordable things like pork, beef heart as the "staple" beef in their diet, and "splurge" on goat or lamb instead. Just my .02 worth.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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9.1. veggies
Posted by: "schottscrazyzoo" schottscrazyzoo@yahoo.com schottscrazyzoo
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:26 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE;SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!

should i feed veggies juuiced or cut up brown rice and oats or not
someone give me the answer so confused

Messages in this topic (51)
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9.2. Re: veggies
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

You should not feed your dog any veggies at all as
they are not species appropriate, neither should you
feed oats or rice.
Dogs are CARNIVORES and need ONLY big chunks of meat,
some bone and some organs (liver).
Some people give their dog veggies as treats or
leftover table scraps, but it doesn't comprise a huge
portion of their daily meal.
Save yourself the trouble and buy a whole chicken and
feed it to your dog.
What kind of dog(s) do you have have? How much do they
weigh?

Nathalie

--- schottscrazyzoo <schottscrazyzoo@yahoo.com> wrote:

> MODERATORS NOTE;SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!
>
>
> should i feed veggies juuiced or cut up brown rice
> and oats or not
> someone give me the answer so confused
>
>

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Messages in this topic (51)
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9.3. Re: veggies
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

Ooh, ooh, pick me, pick me!

No juicing needed, no veggies needed! No brown rice or other grains
needed either!

Your dog (or cat) is a carnivore, and as such, does not require
veggies or grains. Just raw meaty bones, meat (which includes skin,
fat, cartilage, fur), and organs. Feed according to nature's model
and you can't go wrong.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "schottscrazyzoo"
<schottscrazyzoo@...> wrote:
>
> MODERATORS NOTE;SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!
>
>
> should i feed veggies juuiced or cut up brown rice and oats or not
> someone give me the answer so confused
>

Messages in this topic (51)
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9.4. Re: veggies
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

Please do not feed your dogs any veggies......they
do not need them and they cannot digest them.

If you will take the time to read the last couple of dozen posts
or search on feeding or meats to feed or new feeder, you will
find tons of information on what to feed.......

Hey, just take the time to read todays emails........

Meat,meat & more meat with 10% bone & 10% offal....that all your
dog needs!

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- mrawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "schottscrazyzoo"
<schottscrazyzoo@...> wrote:
>
> MODERATORS NOTE;SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!
>
>
> should i feed veggies juuiced or cut up brown rice and oats or not
> someone give me the answer so confused
>

Messages in this topic (51)
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10a. raw and sick
Posted by: "barkalot62" barkalot62@yahoo.ca barkalot62
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

*** Mod Note: please sign your posts! ***

I started feeding some of my westies and a litter of english bulldog
pups the mountain dog food (raw) two weeks ago. The website is
www.mountaindogfood.com

-does anyone feed this? I now have a ten
month old that is very unhappy, not running around, just plain dull
and not feeling well. She will not eat the raw, kibble or people food
today. She drinks water and throws up. I spoon fed some yogurt into
her but she didn't like it either. If you press her stomach it is not
hard or tender, she doesn't flinch at all. She is not herself at all.
Just plain dah. If they have an impaction from pieces of bone would
the stomach be hard and hurt when you pressed on it. her temperature
is 101.9 Fahrenheit or 38.83 Celsius. Help!!!!

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10b. Re: raw and sick
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:23 pm ((PDT))

Well, from what I remember, a "normal" temp is 100-102, so I wouldn't
worry about a fever. But, if she isn't holding down water I would take
her to the vet. If she can hold down water, I would fast her for a day
and then give her some boneless skinless chicken breast to start. One
of the bad things about premade ground raw food is that you rarely know
how much of what goes into the mix. If the mix has a lot of ground
bone in it, it would make her constipated at the least.

It would be best to switch the whole group to whole raw foods, starting
the sick girl off very easy when she's up to it. Whole raw is better
for their teeth, cheaper, easier, and you know exactly what they are
eating. Please keep us updated on your little girl's progress.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "barkalot62" <barkalot62@...> wrote:

> She will not eat the raw, kibble or people food today. She drinks
> water and throws up.

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11. adding fish to diet.........
Posted by: "mgn_moore" mgn_moore@yahoo.com mgn_moore
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

When I feed fish, it will probably be out of the can, unless I can find
some fresh, what do I mix it with. Say I only feed half a can to my 3
year old boxer, do I need to mix anything with it, or would that be
considered the whole meal?

Megan

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12a. Re: RAW Feeding and stools
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi Donna,

Skip the liver and cooked turkey.

Give her nothing but chicken for several weeks or until
her stools are normal for at least a week.

An 87 lb Dane should be able to eat a quarter of
a chicken at one meal, a chicken leg seems to small
to me and she could choke on such a little piece at a time.

Better to buy a whole chicken, cut it into 2 pieces and give
her one.

When she's had enough take it up and feed the rest the next meal.

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, <donnad2998@...> wrote:
>
> I just started raw feeding this past weekend. Will
> this affect her stools? I noticed they are loose
> almost runny. I am feeding her chicken legs to start
> she did have liver and loved it. Yesterday she had
> chicken legs and cooked ground turkey 87 pound dane.
Donna DeBerardinis

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13a. Re: Just started feeding raw
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:51 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/15/2007 8:34:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dmillho1@tampabay.rr.com writes:

I haven't seen Blaze eat with such enthusiasm in a long time. I've been
to the local supermarket and have ordered chicken backs with necks. Due
in on Friday - then, we begin for real.

Kathleen,

you're gonna hear this from LOTS of folks.. get ready for the barrage..

cancel your order for the chicken backs and necks.. these are not suitable
parts for any dog, too much bone and the necks are the perfect shape to cause
choking.

Prey model raw feeding is about attempting to feed as close to nature as
possible. All dogs are selectively inbred grey wolves, grey wolves eat prey
animals. Prey animals broken down into easy percentages comes to APPROXIMATELY 10%
edible bone, 10% organ meat, and the rest is MEAT, fat, cartilage, sinew,
skin and MEAT..

you want MEAT with bone in it, you do NOT want BONE with meat on it. And
LOTS of meals will probably end up being completely boneless..

i don't know what "white bones" you were talking about.. i'm suspecting beef
femur, soup bone, knuckle bone, marrow bone (all the same thing), which can
and do break dog's teeth. And are virtually meatless..

go back to the grocery store.. pick up WHOLE chickens.. whack them into
convenient meal sized hunks and feed them to the dogs for a week or two..
Then venture into bigger and better meats, pork, turkey, duck, beef, lamb,
goat, emu.. just to name a few. And don't forget the organs.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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14. how can i entice my dog to eat organs?
Posted by: "deep_ocean_of_sorrow" deep_ocean_of_sorrow@yahoo.com deep_ocean_of_sorrow
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:22 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE: SIGN YOUR MAILS! LAST WARNING

well for now, we only have beef liver. and when i give him beef liver,
he doesn't eat them! (he only eats the other muscle meats i give him
with the liver.)

i have to cut them up in smaller pieces and then put a bit of (low fat)
milk in to have him eat any. (he likes milk a lot.)

how can i have my dog eat the organs as well? is it because he doesn't
like the smell/taste or something? should i try different organs?

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15a. Re: whole chicken tonight??
Posted by: "sillypoodle2003" angels_mom73@hotmail.com sillypoodle2003
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:24 pm ((PDT))

hi megan. i am sure you will hear from others, if you havnt already,
that a whole cornish hen is too small for a boxer. go for a half or
even whole fryer chicken. what he doesnt eat, pick up and feed at the
next meal. personally, my little 22 lb. poodle will eat a whole
cornish hen and still want more. not to mention, i would think that a
full grown boxer would possibly choke on a cornish hen if he tried to
swallow it whole. JMO.
HTH, kelly and zeke, the wonder poodle

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mgn_moore" <mgn_moore@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, I have been reading and taking notes from this group and I think
I
> am ready!! For tonight, I can go by the grocery store and buy a
cornish
> hen and feed it to my boxer, right? I don't have to do anything but
> unwrap it and throw it to her? Just want to make sure before I do
> anything. I am very nervous about the bones!
> Megan....and thank you all so much for dealing with me!
>

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16a. Re: weight of food or feeding small dogs
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi Stephany,

For lots of good information on feeding small dogs read the past
posts here on the site.

I am feeding a 10 lb dog. I have weighed out a chicken thigh...
took out the bone and took off the skin and it averages out to 4 oz
of meat. I suspect, unless you can find some really big chickens,
it's average for all chicken thighs.

I cut it into two pieces lengthwise. One piece has the bone and skin
and one piece has nothing but the meat and skin.

A 10 lb dog needs about 4 oz of meat or a little more a day.

I feed him 2x a day.If you dog seems to be gaining weight, cut back
a little on the skin first and then the meat, if it seems to be
getting to skinny add more meat, not bone or skin...........

I decide skinny or fat by looking at my dogs and feeling for the
ribs and the backbone.

No, the bone doesn't count as meat....80% meat, 10%bone and 10% offal.

I would guess that a chicken leg is probably 50% bone and skin, both
are important but not enough meat, unless you get some really chubby
chickens, lol.

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "swilken61" <powrfemme@...> wrote:

> how toconsider the weight of food. concerned about getting the
right amount into my ten pounder.

Does the bone count? I was thinking it is heavier, now I think maybe
the meet is heavier on something like a chicken leg.

thanks,
Stephany

Messages in this topic (3)
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17a. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
Posted by: "blechatlb@aol.com" blechatlb@aol.com blechatlb
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:06 pm ((PDT))

The bones are not a problem, they break them up pretty well. The only challenging thing is that, according to the 2-3% of ideal body weight rule, they should technically only be eating about half
of a drumstick a day.
----------------------------------
Susan,

Have you tried chicken drumettes?

TracyB
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