[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11914

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: lamb neck bones
From: Patty Reid

2. small raw previously frozen bones?
From: JOHN PFAFF

3a. Re: how can i entice my dog to eat organs?
From: rosey031801

4a. Re: raw and sick
From: marblekallie

5a. Re: rawfeeding wild rabbit and squirrel....
From: JOHN PFAFF
5b. Re: rawfeeding wild rabbit and squirrel....
From: katkellm

6.1. Re: Question
From: Yasuko herron

7a. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
From: kalina82
7b. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
From: kalina82
7c. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
From: Laurie Swanson

8a. Hi, I'm New
From: charlesmdodson
8b. Re: Hi, I'm New
From: Laura Atkinson
8c. Re: Hi, I'm New
From: Laurie Swanson
8d. Re: Hi, I'm New
From: Morledzep@aol.com
8e. Re: Hi, I'm New
From: Nathalie Poulin

9a. Re: MOTHER
From: Sheryl Edelen
9b. Re: MOTHER
From: woofwoofgrrl
9c. MOTHER
From: blechatlb@aol.com

10a. Re: weight of food or feeding small dogs
From: delcaste

11a. Re: the trouble w/pork bones
From: delcaste
11b. Re: the trouble w/pork bones
From: Brandi Bryant
11c. Re: the trouble w/pork bones
From: Morledzep@aol.com

12a. Re: probiotics or just transition time
From: Loretta Luja

13. vet says Yeay to rawfeeding
From: Ivette Casiano

14a. Re: guilt and anger
From: Ivette Casiano

Messages
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1a. Re: lamb neck bones
Posted by: "Patty Reid" pattyannreidster@gmail.com pattyannreid
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:33 pm ((PDT))

Who is Peter? How to contact him?

Patty

On 8/15/07, Jen <jboydmorin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Sue,
>
> I order most of my meat from Peter. He is really great, if you are
> unsure about what you got from him, do ask him. He's really
> knowledgeable about raw feeding and willing to help. Aside from that,
> I'd recommend getting the whole lamb necks he sells rather than the
> bones. At $1.35/lb they're my absolute favorite cut to feed. It's
> the entire neck bone wrapped in meat and surrounded by a layer of fat.
> For my dogs it's the perfect meat:bone ratio - they have the best
> stool after eating those.
>
> The necks are about 3 lbs each and it takes my dogs about an hour to
> eat one.
>
> FYI, he's sometimes low on those so you may have to ask ahead.
>
> Jen
>
>
>

--
Patty
www.monetstandards.com

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Messages in this topic (15)
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2. small raw previously frozen bones?
Posted by: "JOHN PFAFF" johnpfaff@comcast.net rawfeednewbie
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:33 pm ((PDT))

As in squirrel and rabbit for a large dog?>
Please comment.
Tks,
John
JOHN PFAFF

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Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Re: how can i entice my dog to eat organs?
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:33 pm ((PDT))

My dog prefers fozen organs to thawed out. I think it is the texture.
Also I make sure he is really hungry and give it before any other type
of meat.
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: raw and sick
Posted by: "marblekallie" marble@pipeline.com marblekallie
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:33 pm ((PDT))

Hi:

This sounds awfully like pyometra, but she is a bit young to get it.
Whatever it is, it is an emergency and she should be at the vet
pronto.

Philippa Jordan
New York City

> She drinks water and throws up. I spoon fed some yogurt into
> her but she didn't like it either. If you press her stomach it is
not
> hard or tender, she doesn't flinch at all. She is not herself at
all.
> Just plain dah. If they have an impaction from pieces of bone would
> the stomach be hard and hurt when you pressed on it. her temperature
> is 101.9 Fahrenheit or 38.83 Celsius. Help!!!!
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: rawfeeding wild rabbit and squirrel....
Posted by: "JOHN PFAFF" johnpfaff@comcast.net rawfeednewbie
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:47 pm ((PDT))

How small can the bones be if raw?

JOHN PFAFF
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN PFAFF
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:00 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: rawfeeding wild rabbit and squirrel....

....will fresh rabbit and squirrel pose a danger to my rott pup? I intend to thoroughly freeze the meat beforehand to kill parasites. Any comments will be appreciated.
John. :)
JOHN PFAFF

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Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: rawfeeding wild rabbit and squirrel....
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:22 pm ((PDT))

>
> ....will fresh rabbit and squirrel pose a danger to my rott pup? I
intend to thoroughly freeze the meat beforehand to kill parasites.

Hi John,
I live in a little rural town out on a farm, and my dogs catch
squirrels and rabbits fairly regularly-have for 3 years, and i have
never had a problem. They eat them as is-head to tail- and the size
of/or the bones have never posed a problem(lab, aussie, jindo). I
don't have the luxury to be able to freeze em before they eat em, and
I have never had problems with parasites either, but that is not to
say that i won't at sometime. KathyM who knows it sounds gross

Messages in this topic (3)
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6.1. Re: Question
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:27 pm ((PDT))

>How do you deal with the possibility of a parasitic infection? Specifically
>Trichinosis from ingesting raw meat (pork, deer, etc..).

Hi. Domestic pork (US or Canada) are safe. I feed pork now and then but my dog has no problems.

I read that wild deer/rabbit etc better deep freeze here in list but, all I buy is from already being frozen and not wild so, I can feed safely.

Just avoid Trout or Salmon from pacific north west ;CA to Alaska line,due salmon poisoning possibility.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (144)
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7a. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
Posted by: "kalina82" kalina82@yahoo.com kalina82
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:29 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "brake4breyers832"
<pebbles_diehl@...> wrote:
>
>
> "The only challenging thing is that, according to the 2-3% of ideal
> body weight rule, they should technically only be eating about half
> of a drumstick a day."
>

wow so she shouldn't even get a whole drumstick? So after we break
into the chicken what is the next meat that you would try that's small?

Kellie

Messages in this topic (6)
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7b. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
Posted by: "kalina82" kalina82@yahoo.com kalina82
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:31 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, blechatlb@... wrote:

>
> Have you tried chicken drumettes?
>
> TracyB

I'll look into these too. What about cornish hens?

Kellie

Messages in this topic (6)
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7c. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

Turkey (especially breasts), rabbit, and fish have easy bones. But you
can feed any meat. You can use chicken for the boney meals and add in
a bit of any kind of boneless meat, or alternate boney w/boneless
meals. Chicken feet might be a good source of bone, too, and then you
could feed those w/a hunk of meat. You might also try searching the
archives for more small/tiny dog info.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kalina82" <kalina82@...> wrote:
So after we break
> into the chicken what is the next meat that you would try that's
small?
>
> Kellie
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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8a. Hi, I'm New
Posted by: "charlesmdodson" charlesmdodson@yahoo.com charlesmdodson
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:31 pm ((PDT))

This is my first post. My name is Charles and my wife and kids and I
live in the high desert in Southern California. I was referred here
by a member of a Doberman site I belong to. I have a 30 lb Beagle
named Nala and a (almost) 7 month old Doberman named Sherman, as in
the tank. He weighs 70 lbs.

I am just a couple weeks into feeding him raw and have him up to 2
out of 3 meals a day consisting of raw foods. The one other meal is
a mixture of Canidae and Innova Large Breed Puppy.

I guess my first question here is about carbs. A dog nutrition lady
told me Sherman needs carbs in his diet other than just feeding him
meat, bones, and organs (and the occasional raw egg). She said he
needs vegetables or the like. Any input?

BTW, my raw ingredients, to start, consist of chicken quarters,
turkey necks (both of which he adores), beef liver, pigs feet, and
the occasional raw egg.

Any input is really appreciated. Already I have noticed his coat
gleams better than before and seems to have more natural oil to it.
I also notice his teeth are even cleaner than before and of course he
produces less 'waste.'

Messages in this topic (5)
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8b. Re: Hi, I'm New
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:54 pm ((PDT))

Input? I hope you didn't pay the dog nutrition lady any money.

Dogs have no dietary need for carbohyrdrates, that's in some veterinary
manual, Mercks or Kirks or somesuch mainstream thing.
Dump the kibble, he needs that like a hole in the head. Ditto with veggies.

Your diet is a little bone heavy. Add in some muscle meat, beef heart is
always a good option in my book. It's nutrient dense, red meat. Pork meat
too, is another good choice.

Meat, bone and organs...that's all he needs to start with.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com

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Messages in this topic (5)
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8c. Re: Hi, I'm New
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

****Hi Charles,

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "charlesmdodson"
<charlesmdodson@...> wrote:
> I guess my first question here is about carbs. A dog nutrition
lady
> told me Sherman needs carbs in his diet other than just feeding him
> meat, bones, and organs (and the occasional raw egg). She said he
> needs vegetables or the like. Any input?

****I'm sure most of us thought this and have been told this by
someone in a position of "authority." Many reasons why, I think--
mostly that dog food companies decided to make "foods" out of cheap
grains and beet pulp, etc. and convinced us and vets it's fine and
even healthy. Did you know that most vets get about 1-2 days of
nutrition education which is usually put on by Hill's (Science Diet),
etc.? And then when we try to re-create kibble with raw (which is
stupid, anyway), we fall into the trap of "they need their vitamins"
(which we think are only in veggies--we don't realize there's lots of
vitamins and minerals in meat, bones, and organs!). Then there's our
tendency to anthropomorphize and think because we need veggies/carbs
that dogs do.

>
> BTW, my raw ingredients, to start, consist of chicken quarters,
> turkey necks (both of which he adores), beef liver, pigs feet, and
> the occasional raw egg.

****As you've heard, you need more meat. Think of a whole prey
animal and work toward assembling that as best you can over the long-
term. Lots of meat, some bone, and a bit of organs. A lot of people
start with chicken and it's easy whole prey, but you'll want to find
more variety eventually. Beef, pork, lamb, goat, turkey, fish, emu,
venison--whatever you can get.

--Laurie

Messages in this topic (5)
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8d. Re: Hi, I'm New
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:42 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/15/2007 3:32:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
charlesmdodson@yahoo.com writes:

Any input is really appreciated. Already I have noticed his coat
gleams better than before and seems to have more natural oil to it.
I also notice his teeth are even cleaner than before and of course he
produces less 'waste.'

Charles,

Because i'm lazy.. i'm going to copy and paste a post i did just this
morning..


"you're gonna hear this from LOTS of folks.. get ready for the barrage..

cancel your order for the chicken backs and necks.. these are not suitable
parts for any dog, too much bone and the necks are the perfect shape to cause
choking.

Prey model raw feeding is about attempting to feed as close to nature as
possible. All dogs are selectively inbred grey wolves, grey wolves eat prey
animals. Prey animals broken down into easy percentages comes to APPROXIMATELY 10%
edible bone, 10% organ meat, and the rest is MEAT, fat, cartilage, sinew,
skin and MEAT..

you want MEAT with bone in it, you do NOT want BONE with meat on it. And
LOTS of meals will probably end up being completely boneless..

i don't know what "white bones" you were talking about.. i'm suspecting beef
femur, soup bone, knuckle bone, marrow bone (all the same thing), which can
and do break dog's teeth. And are virtually meatless..

go back to the grocery store.. pick up WHOLE chickens.. whack them into
convenient meal sized hunks and feed them to the dogs for a week or two..
Then venture into bigger and better meats, pork, turkey, duck, beef, lamb,
goat, emu.. just to name a few. And don't forget the organs."

Charles,

I'm also going to add that mixing kibble and raw is a recipe for digestive
upset.. and a 7 month old dog is more than capable of eating twice a day or
less.. looks like the things you've already fed are mostly bone and fat, not a
lot of good muscle meat, which should be the bulk of the diet. And, i don't
have a link to it anymore, i'm sure someone else can help with that part.. but
dogs have NO dietary need for carbs or vegetable matter. And some can cause
allergic reactions, inhibit thyroid function or act as a diuretic.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (5)
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8e. Re: Hi, I'm New
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:47 pm ((PDT))

Charles,

Check out this site, it should really help you out.

www.rawfed.com/myths

Nathalie

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Messages in this topic (5)
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9a. Re: MOTHER
Posted by: "Sheryl Edelen" sophiiblu@yahoo.com sophiiblu
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:40 pm ((PDT))

I thought it was bad only if your pets are Muslim.

Sheryl Edelen
Co-moderator, If Pits & Rotts Could Talk
"People think responsibility is hard to bear. It's not. I think that sometimes it is the absence of responsibility that is harder to bear. You have a great feeling of impotence." - Henry Kissinger

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Messages in this topic (7)
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9b. Re: MOTHER
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:21 pm ((PDT))

Or Jewish. But boy, a raw diet certainly would make it easier for the
dog to follow the kosher laws!

Christine

Sheryl Edelen wrote:
>
>
> I thought it was bad only if your pets are Muslim.

Messages in this topic (7)
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9c. MOTHER
Posted by: "blechatlb@aol.com" blechatlb@aol.com blechatlb
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:45 pm ((PDT))

Denise,

I feed pork at least 3 x per week, and I don't freeze it first. My dogs do great with it, never had an issue.

TracyB

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Messages in this topic (7)
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10a. Re: weight of food or feeding small dogs
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:40 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Stephany,
>
> For lots of good information on feeding small dogs read the past
> posts here on the site.
>
> I am feeding a 10 lb dog. I have weighed out a chicken thigh...
> took out the bone and took off the skin and it averages out to 4 oz
> of meat. I suspect, unless you can find some really big chickens,
> it's average for all chicken thighs.
>
> I cut it into two pieces lengthwise. One piece has the bone and
skin
> and one piece has nothing but the meat and skin.
>
> A 10 lb dog needs about 4 oz of meat or a little more a day.
>
> I feed him 2x a day.If you dog seems to be gaining weight, cut back
> a little on the skin first and then the meat, if it seems to be
> getting to skinny add more meat, not bone or skin...........
>
> I decide skinny or fat by looking at my dogs and feeling for the
> ribs and the backbone.
>
> No, the bone doesn't count as meat....80% meat, 10%bone and 10%
offal.
>
> I would guess that a chicken leg is probably 50% bone and skin,
both
> are important but not enough meat, unless you get some really
chubby
> chickens, lol.
>
> Carol, Charkee & Moli
>
Hi, Carol could you be a little more specific for me? I don't
understand what you do to the drumstick, exactly. My dogs are to be
eating a little over 6 oz a day going by the 2% ration and I'd like
to keep feeding them twice a day.

Silvina and the pugs

Messages in this topic (4)
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11a. Re: the trouble w/pork bones
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

So,my suggestion is, try feed it and see if your dog can handle
it.And I try avoid pieces that is smaller than my dog muzzel to feed
like pork chop bone which I cut off all the time.
>
> I am not sure how small your neck bone is,but judge if your dog
more likely swallow hole due the size is smaller than mouth.Try avoid
tiny bones;good example is.. already cutted 1inch sized ox tail for
soup making. I would not feed that small bones.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> yassy

Yes, you've helped, Yassy. The bones are small but since they are not
hard like a cow's I may give them to the pit with some meat. He
crunches his bones and meat perfectly. I wish ALL my dogs did it his
way. I have to test with the smaller dogs. I think one of them can
eat the pork neck but the other is a gulper. Thanks.

Silvina and the pugs

Messages in this topic (11)
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11b. Re: the trouble w/pork bones
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:05 pm ((PDT))

>>>I do have
large dogs, however, I do not feed pork chops or pork necks. I don't like
the bone that is in the chops, <<<

I have a question about this statement - I agree I wouldn't want to feed
pork chop bones either but can you trim the meat off the bone of a pork chop
and feed it to the dogs, I too have dogs.

Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

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11c. Re: the trouble w/pork bones
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:54 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/15/2007 6:06:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bbryant573@gmail.com writes:

I have a question about this statement - I agree I wouldn't want to feed
pork chop bones either but can you trim the meat off the bone of a pork chop
and feed it to the dogs, I too have dogs.

Brandi,

for large dogs cutting the meat off of pork chops just makes swallowable
sized hunks of meat.. doesn't do much for exercise or teeth cleaning if there is
no work involved in eating it.

IF.. the dogs are tiny.. like yorkies, or chihuahua.. a pork chop off the
bone would probably be a meal, and there would be plenty of chewing and tearing
to clean the teeth.

Pork necks are generally just bone with just the tiniest amount of meat on
them, and often you find them in the grocery store, sliced by that same band saw
that makes the unnaturally sharp edges and heats the bone. I've purchased
whole pork neck bones, they've been life savers when the dogs have had more than
they should of organ meat or just too many days between meals with bones..
but i don't use them often.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (11)
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12a. Re: probiotics or just transition time
Posted by: "Loretta Luja" luja@comcast.net desertwilite
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:24 pm ((PDT))

Cont. from last post.

So does it sound like I am missing something here? Katie is
quiet (not as active as usual) during the day but seems to be
up most of the night stressed. How long should it be before
her poo is normal? Or can it always stay watery with bone
pieces in it? And Tiggie STILL hasn't had a movement yet
(maybe I should give him a squeeze LOL) Just kidding.

Loretta L

>
>

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13. vet says Yeay to rawfeeding
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:05 pm ((PDT))

I finally found a vet that says it's good to feed raw. She is a holistic vet and ironically is close to the previous vet we used to use. I have had a hard time convincing my bf, Brian, to feed Nugget raw. He needed the validation of a medical professional and that's why I looked for a holistic vet, among other things (like vaccinations which now scare the hell out of me). While we were there I asked questions I already knew the answers to that I had learned on this website like, "can I give him a quarter chicken - bone and all, what about organs, what about choking, what about the nutrients he needs?" She answered all of these as all of you have on this site and I glared at my bf (but I held my tongue from saying "YOU SEE". I didn't want to totally embarrass him). So Nugget is now on total raw (going on the 4th day). Now I have to start working on convincing him to let me feed him RMBs. I need to take baby steps with him, the bf, not Nugget. We will be starting a new
protein soon but I'm waiting for a little while longer for the organs.
The lump on his back was just a fat deposit. Whew, what a relief. .

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

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14a. Re: guilt and anger
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:46 pm ((PDT))

<<I think we do the best we can with the knowledge we have. I always bought
the best kibble for my dogs that I could afford at the time. It might not
have been the best for my dogs but it was the best that I could do at that
time. Margie>>

Well said, Margie. All of us in this group are animal lovers concerned with the health of our pets. We always want the best and do the best we can. It's like children, we do the best parenting we know how at the time and when we learn a better way, adapt. I hope it's not too late for my dog who is 7 but from what I've read here, it's never too late. We can't kick ourselves for past mistakes, just move on to a better way now.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

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